Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Riding: Plan, Report and Racing => Racing Section => Topic started by: ZooDog on December 11, 2012, 04:22:42 pm

Title: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: ZooDog on December 11, 2012, 04:22:42 pm
so guys i would like some advise and where to look for rally type kits for these 2 bikes, and what bike would you guys reccomend
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: blazes on December 11, 2012, 05:03:17 pm
WHY  :peepwall:
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: ZooDog on December 11, 2012, 05:10:37 pm
well i would like one, and im planning to do amageza, awell as 450 is the size bike i use the most in my area of riding, and i bought a 990, so getting rid of my 250 and my 650, so thought id get a 450, so ican still ride the best of both worlds
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: Robski on January 16, 2013, 07:42:06 pm
I went to Yamaha to ask about a rally kit for the 450, and they said they don't bring them in, and if they did it would be VERY expensive.

It was at the end of the day just something I wanted to know from Yamaha, as I went to KTM just after.

Why don't you get the rally kit for the KTM 450?
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: blazes on January 17, 2013, 12:44:49 pm
well i would like one, and im planning to do amageza, awell as 450 is the size bike i use the most in my area of riding, and i bought a 990, so getting rid of my 250 and my 650, so thought id get a 450, so ican still ride the best of both worlds

I would go for the WR --just a no shit bike  :)
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: ZooDog on January 17, 2013, 02:37:22 pm
was thinking about the 450 ktm rally kit as the yammys seem to much of a mission to get in, will def have a look at it
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: tau on January 17, 2013, 02:43:45 pm
When you say rallye kit what do you refer to????

Tank
Fairing

or a proper kit??

Then the CRF and WR kits are about the same. However for Amageza a big tank is more than enough plus some nav gear. A full rallye kit is nice, but a must.

Go toe www.rallymanagementservices.com for some examples.
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: tau on January 17, 2013, 02:52:54 pm
http://www.rallymanagementservices.com/collections/new-products/products/2012-ktm-450-500-efi-rally-kit-evo-3-mecasystem

Good budget kit. Buy a secondhand KTM and slap this on.

Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: tau on January 17, 2013, 02:55:29 pm
http://www.rallymanagementservices.com/collections/rally-kits/products/2012-yamaha-wr450-rally-kit-mecasystem

This is what Pain is using at Dakar this year.If I had to start from scratch this would be my bike.
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: BlueBull2007 on January 20, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
Tau has good advice here.

Dave from RMS is probably the best out there. The guys are still at Dakar so I would wait another week before you speak to them.

Getting a bike rallied up is major mission, but it can only be done through a 3rd part outfit like RMS or desert rose racing (UK based), or yourself. You can order the WR rally kit direct from JVO Racing in Spain, but they are spanish okes so communication if difficult and service is not great. Tau did this with his Yammie, I went the RMS route. Tau saved about R25,000 but had more of a headache getting the stuff. The advantage of doing it yourself is you can do it the way you want to but it is not easy unless you have some wrenching skills yourself. WayneH on the forum is now the owner of my WR so you might want to get in touch with him aas well for advice.

All the best with your build and let us know which way you are going. I love these kind of threads. Also dont be afraid to ask.

Cheers

Neil :paw:
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: Robski on January 20, 2013, 09:46:08 pm
Tau has good advice here.

Dave from RMS is probably the best out there. The guys are still at Dakar so I would wait another week before you speak to them.

Getting a bike rallied up is major mission, but it can only be done through a 3rd part outfit like RMS or desert rose racing (UK based), or yourself. You can order the WR rally kit direct from JVO Racing in Spain, but they are spanish okes so communication if difficult and service is not great. Tau did this with his Yammie, I went the RMS route. Tau saved about R25,000 but had more of a headache getting the stuff. The advantage of doing it yourself is you can do it the way you want to but it is not easy unless you have some wrenching skills yourself. WayneH on the forum is now the owner of my WR so you might want to get in touch with him aas well for advice.

All the best with your build and let us know which way you are going. I love these kind of threads. Also dont be afraid to ask.

Cheers

Neil :paw:

Neil, let me know when you are selling your next bike!
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: ZooDog on January 22, 2013, 12:56:40 pm
thanks guys really appriciate the help makes it alot easier
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: JustBendIt on January 22, 2013, 06:27:24 pm
I can no longer hold my tongue and must ask WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE EVERYBODY WANTS TO BUY A RALLY KIT / CONVERT THEIR BIKES INTO RALLY BIKES

How many rallies are you planning to do ?
How often are you going to ride a rally ?
Do you really need a complete rally kit or just a bigger fuel tank and a screen for some wind protection ? because this is all you really need if you want to do the Amageza - in fact even the screen is optional

I have ridden a few rally bikes - they are great in rallies but kak everywhere else - a std 450 with big tank is so much more fun to ride - most probably because you are not shit scared of crashing and breaking your very expensive rally kit

Rally bikes look cool but are highly impractical as DS bikes - like having a F1 car to commute to work in
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: BlueBull2007 on January 22, 2013, 07:49:33 pm
Not quite correct. For Amageza you will need an ICO, fuel capacity, a GPS mount and a roadbook holder, not a fancy screen ;D

But those are good questions you ask Jagsding. Maybe because desert rallies are fun to do?

I do doubt too many are scared of crashing their rally kits - I know Im not. I also have a normal plastic which I really enjoy using as well, and my 800GS which is fun but not as much as it used to be. I guess my tastes have changed.

Horses for courses - Everyone has their own reason for building a rally bike.  Some Im sure are for poser value, although you lose poser value quick if you dont race the thing, so its a double edged sword for those that are like that ;D
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: JustBendIt on January 22, 2013, 08:05:20 pm
Not quite correct. For Amageza you will need an ICO, fuel capacity, a GPS mount and a roadbook holder, not a fancy screen ;D

But those are good questions you ask Jagsding. Maybe because desert rallies are fun to do?

I do doubt too many are scared of crashing their rally kits - I know Im not. I also have a normal plastic which I really enjoy using as well, and my 800GS which is fun but not as much as it used to be. I guess my tastes have changed.

Horses for courses - Everyone has their own reason for building a rally bike.  Some Im sure are for poser value, although you lose poser value quick if you dont race the thing, so its a double edged sword for those that are like that ;D

I know you need a few extra things for the Amageza BUT I still do not beleive you need a full rally kit like the stuff used in FIM rallies

My reason for the rant - I was involved with some of the development on the ORYX until I gave up and said no more - because every bike was different and they kept on changing their minds every second day on what was needed / wanted - I was highly unimpressed with the quality of the "rally kits" and to me it seemed like nothing fitted properly - not in the way a new factory built bike should be. My company's role was in the exhaust design and manufacture - there is nothing more compromised on a rally bike than the exhaust that runs underneath the bike to clear the big fuel tanks - it reduces ground clearance, is prone to taking big knocks and burns the heel of the rider's left boot - but there is nowhere else to put it so that's where it must go. Every bike was different and for me the big problem would come when parts were damaged in accidents and needed to be replaced - will you actually be able to get new stuff for your literally one-off special ?

A standard KTM 690 with translucent Safari tank (total capacity = 26 litres = 500 km range) must be the ultimate and most cost effective rally bike for the amateur enthusiast wanting to do the Amageza and use it as a practical DS bike out of rallies

Do you really need to spend so much moola on the fancy fairings and all that jazz ? I know I wouldn't but maybe thats just me

Function over form wins for me every time

But getting back to the original question: WR or CRF ? I would choose the WR every time - fantastic bang for your buck and good prices and availability of original spares from Yamaha SA
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: BiG DoM on January 22, 2013, 08:20:53 pm
I must agree with most of these sentiments regarding possible over investment in a rally bike that may only be used once or twice. I am presently wrestling with the same dilema. How many proper rally races are there for these bikes in SA? Is a Baja/Australasian Rally type setup not more suited/appropriate for Amageza type competition?
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: BlueBull2007 on January 22, 2013, 08:53:50 pm
There are less and less rallies happening up in North Africa, so its just a matter of time before the Amageza takes off or something else comes along in our part of the world. If Alex has his way there wont be a need to go and do the Dakar, but these things start small, just like the Dakar itself did.

So im really happy that so many now seem to have an interest in rally bikes. Yes they have their downsides, but thanks to the Dakar and the 450 rule the DS bike of the future will be something like what we see on the Dakar, the Oryx is just one early example. The big heavy bikes will just get bigger and heavier (seen the new KTM Adv bike being sold as something you should be taking into the hills?), and eventually there will be a separation of the two big bikes on roads and dirt highways, while the smaller bikes will become the craze.

If you think about it the desire for people to start building their own rally bike stems from this 450 rule, which has demosntrated that these little bikes can go the distance, overloaded and albiet with their own disadvantages. They are still lighter and easier to ride in more technical terrain and I believe this is why people are turning to them.

Jagsding, your observation is correct, the market appears to want to ride rally bikes these days, as demonstrated by our own behavior.

Just my opinion...
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: tau on January 22, 2013, 10:05:59 pm
Juztin jy weet mos soos in Elsiesrivier is die bra met die meeste bling King.
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: JustBendIt on January 23, 2013, 06:20:08 am
Juztin jy weet mos soos in Elsiesrivier is die bra met die meeste bling King.

Jy is heeltemaal reg

Ek het baie nuw bling op my fietse

Double overhead battery terminals
High rise radiator cap
NewMatic tyres
HydroLick clutch and brakes
OrtoMatic start via remote switch on handlebars
Keyless Go
Porcelain insulated spark generator

en nog meer
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: alanB on January 23, 2013, 06:54:01 am
Not quite correct. For Amageza you will need an ICO, fuel capacity, a GPS mount and a roadbook holder, not a fancy screen ;D

But those are good questions you ask Jagsding. Maybe because desert rallies are fun to do?

I do doubt too many are scared of crashing their rally kits - I know Im not. I also have a normal plastic which I really enjoy using as well, and my 800GS which is fun but not as much as it used to be. I guess my tastes have changed.

Horses for courses - Everyone has their own reason for building a rally bike.  Some Im sure are for poser value, although you lose poser value quick if you dont race the thing, so its a double edged sword for those that are like that ;D

I know you need a few extra things for the Amageza BUT I still do not beleive you need a full rally kit like the stuff used in FIM rallies

My reason for the rant - I was involved with some of the development on the ORYX until I gave up and said no more - because every bike was different and they kept on changing their minds every second day on what was needed / wanted - I was highly unimpressed with the quality of the "rally kits" and to me it seemed like nothing fitted properly - not in the way a new factory built bike should be. My company's role was in the exhaust design and manufacture - there is nothing more compromised on a rally bike than the exhaust that runs underneath the bike to clear the big fuel tanks - it reduces ground clearance, is prone to taking big knocks and burns the heel of the rider's left boot - but there is nowhere else to put it so that's where it must go. Every bike was different and for me the big problem would come when parts were damaged in accidents and needed to be replaced - will you actually be able to get new stuff for your literally one-off special ?

A standard KTM 690 with translucent Safari tank (total capacity = 26 litres = 500 km range) must be the ultimate and most cost effective rally bike for the amateur enthusiast wanting to do the Amageza and use it as a practical DS bike out of rallies

Do you really need to spend so much moola on the fancy fairings and all that jazz ? I know I wouldn't but maybe thats just me

Function over form wins for me every time

But getting back to the original question: WR or CRF ? I would choose the WR every time - fantastic bang for your buck and good prices and availability of original spares from Yamaha SA

I share your sentiments!

Some people just want the "look" of a rally bike - so thats what drives them. They would happy with the Oryx or something similar.

Others are rally enthusiasts and want a proper rally bike as a sort of a piece of history - I can relate - it must be awesome to own one of the bikes that actually did the Dakar for example - but it would be very impractical - not to mention expensive - and I would be torn between riding it and preserving it. 

Very few people in SA will need a fully functional rally bike.  You certainly dont need one for the Amageza - yet.  And thats the only local race/event where you could possibly use one at the moment.

In addition, I personally do not like those nav towers at all.  They make the bike top heavy, whack you in the face and chest over obstacles and are prone to disintegration from vibration and falls. 

I had a screen on my bike for a while - simply because I thought I needed it for cruising on the highway, but I got sick and tired of being whacked unexpectedly in rough terrain, so I took it off.  Turns out that while it did reduce wind drag a bit at highway speeds, it also drastically increased turbulence which was more irritating.  So for me its better all round without the screen.

I'm still humming and haaing about how to mount a road book for the Amageza, but you certainly dont need a large tower for that.

As for the large fuel tanks - my experience with a single large tank is that its not ideal.  On my bike it holds the weight too far forward when full.  Which drastically changes the bike's handling (it becomes a bit treacherous in thick sand and mud, you need to be wide awake).  But I suppose thats always going to be a compromise because 24 extra kilos is lot of extra weight on a 140kg bike.  But I wish I could centralise the weight somehow when full.
   
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: Uiltjie on January 23, 2013, 06:59:31 am
Juztin jy weet mos soos in Elsiesrivier is die bra met die meeste bling King.

Jy is heeltemaal reg

Ek het baie nuw bling op my fietse

Double overhead battery terminals
High rise radiator cap
NewMatic tyres
HydroLick clutch and brakes
OrtoMatic start via remote switch on handlebars
Keyless Go
Porcelain insulated spark generator

en nog meer

Kyk hie my broe, die darkies drop mos die karre

(http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss312/faizi1021/CARS/Mitsubishi-spyder-QpnM.jpg)

....en die whities lig hulle mos wee op......  Issss jaaaaaa......

(http://www.webtruckstop.com/wp-content/uploads/4x4-On-Road-in-USA2.jpg)
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: BiG DoM on January 23, 2013, 07:10:50 am
This is a mixed up thread  ??? Pity because the duscussion around 'Full Monty Dakar rally bikes" for essentially one race AmaG is vaid IMHO.

As I have said I concur with Alan and my take is that one must try and make the Amageza accessible and ATTRACTIVE to as many riders as possible - financially and aesthetically. Guys must be comfortable to enter and compete on a basic 'rallied' bike (as I have said like in Aus, Baja, etc) - one that may not have had R60K+ spent on nav towers, imported fairings etc. Why? Because what one wants to do is encourage guys to be attracted to this form of competition, get hooked and then GROW it = they need to become excited, committed and will then invest more in it. This is how DS riding (while not competetive in the true sense) has grown and how other forms of sport grow. While many of us would love the pukka Dakar rallay type scoot in reality for most it does not make sense at present.  :3some: For me I will be looking for an affordable and logical 'compromise' for AmaG.
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: tulips on January 23, 2013, 08:41:01 am
http://h2osport.yolasite.com/other-products---non-canoeing.php

can the 690 screen fit ?  local manufacturer
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: BiG DoM on January 23, 2013, 09:27:59 am
Fit what? Most things can be 'made' to fit. There are a few locally made generic rally type fairings available if one wants to go that route.
Title: Re: crf 450 or wr 450 to build rally bike
Post by: tau on January 23, 2013, 10:06:08 am
Not quite correct. For Amageza you will need an ICO, fuel capacity, a GPS mount and a roadbook holder, not a fancy screen ;D

But those are good questions you ask Jagsding. Maybe because desert rallies are fun to do?

I do doubt too many are scared of crashing their rally kits - I know Im not. I also have a normal plastic which I really enjoy using as well, and my 800GS which is fun but not as much as it used to be. I guess my tastes have changed.

Horses for courses - Everyone has their own reason for building a rally bike.  Some Im sure are for poser value, although you lose poser value quick if you dont race the thing, so its a double edged sword for those that are like that ;D

I know you need a few extra things for the Amageza BUT I still do not beleive you need a full rally kit like the stuff used in FIM rallies

My reason for the rant - I was involved with some of the development on the ORYX until I gave up and said no more - because every bike was different and they kept on changing their minds every second day on what was needed / wanted - I was highly unimpressed with the quality of the "rally kits" and to me it seemed like nothing fitted properly - not in the way a new factory built bike should be. My company's role was in the exhaust design and manufacture - there is nothing more compromised on a rally bike than the exhaust that runs underneath the bike to clear the big fuel tanks - it reduces ground clearance, is prone to taking big knocks and burns the heel of the rider's left boot - but there is nowhere else to put it so that's where it must go. Every bike was different and for me the big problem would come when parts were damaged in accidents and needed to be replaced - will you actually be able to get new stuff for your literally one-off special ?

A standard KTM 690 with translucent Safari tank (total capacity = 26 litres = 500 km range) must be the ultimate and most cost effective rally bike for the amateur enthusiast wanting to do the Amageza and use it as a practical DS bike out of rallies

Do you really need to spend so much moola on the fancy fairings and all that jazz ? I know I wouldn't but maybe thats just me

Function over form wins for me every time

But getting back to the original question: WR or CRF ? I would choose the WR every time - fantastic bang for your buck and good prices and availability of original spares from Yamaha SA

I share your sentiments!

Some people just want the "look" of a rally bike - so thats what drives them. They would happy with the Oryx or something similar.

Others are rally enthusiasts and want a proper rally bike as a sort of a piece of history - I can relate - it must be awesome to own one of the bikes that actually did the Dakar for example - but it would be very impractical - not to mention expensive - and I would be torn between riding it and preserving it. 

Very few people in SA will need a fully functional rally bike.  You certainly dont need one for the Amageza - yet.  And thats the only local race/event where you could possibly use one at the moment.

In addition, I personally do not like those nav towers at all.  They make the bike top heavy, whack you in the face and chest over obstacles and are prone to disintegration from vibration and falls. 

I had a screen on my bike for a while - simply because I thought I needed it for cruising on the highway, but I got sick and tired of being whacked unexpectedly in rough terrain, so I took it off.  Turns out that while it did reduce wind drag a bit at highway speeds, it also drastically increased turbulence which was more irritating.  So for me its better all round without the screen.

I'm still humming and haaing about how to mount a road book for the Amageza, but you certainly dont need a large tower for that.

As for the large fuel tanks - my experience with a single large tank is that its not ideal.  On my bike it holds the weight too far forward when full.  Which drastically changes the bike's handling (it becomes a bit treacherous in thick sand and mud, you need to be wide awake).  But I suppose thats always going to be a compromise because 24 extra kilos is lot of extra weight on a 140kg bike.  But I wish I could centralise the weight somehow when full.
   

The centralised fuel on the rally kits make a huge difference. I agree rather have a big tank infront and no screen and compete. The full on rallyebike's weren't build by moegoes. My bike which is called a "kit" bike in rallye trim is way better balanced for those high speed bumps etc.

I still think a 650 class thumper + big tank is the best bet for Amageza asservice intervals are far apart and for the road sections they are comfy. Even the DRz400 is a very good bet.