Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => General Bike Related Banter => Topic started by: Frog on February 18, 2013, 07:39:41 am

Title: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Frog on February 18, 2013, 07:39:41 am
Not sure if already posted but I read today that Robin Carlisle, Western Cape transport MEC said yesterday " I am contemplating a regulation that will prohibit motorcyclists from riding between lanes - because that is where they die" "I am not saying we are going to implement but I am thinking about it"
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: lecap on February 18, 2013, 07:47:04 am
Waste of resources and breathable air.

Lane splitting is illegal in Germany. I rode bikes over there from the mid Eighties until 2000. No one gave a s4!+, everyone just did it. It's impossible to enforce a lane splitting ban. It was more of a legal / insurance issue if you had an accident while lane splitting they made it partially your fault.

If Robin Carlisle wants to save lifes why does he not enforce cagers wearing their seat belts and yes also in the rear seat and parents buckling up their kids. ???
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Dogmatix on February 18, 2013, 07:48:18 am
Where do these cretins get their information and how much thinking do they actually do? I'll tell Mr Carlisle what I'm thinking one of these days...
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Kobus on February 18, 2013, 08:03:34 am
He is a twatwaffle of a leader. I appreciate the fact that he wants to do things, but he says all these things without any research. Like lowering speed limits.

Like a person that works close to him said; "he likes his own voice".

Title: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: The Rock on February 18, 2013, 08:06:35 am
Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word

2013-02-17 23:58

KAAPSTAD. – Motorfietsryers in die Wes-Kaap kan moontlik gedwing word om hulle soos “motorbestuurders te gedra”.

Dít nadat Robin Carlisle, Wes-Kaapse minister van vervoer en openbare werke, gister aangekondig het hy oorweeg regulasies om motorfietsryers vas te vat.

Motorfietsryers is die enigste kategorie padgebruikers waar die dodetal sedert 2008 toegeneem het – van 63 tot 84 in 2012.

Ook Kenny Africa, provinsiale verkeershoof, het gesê dit is ’n groot kommer wat aandag móét kry.

“Ons sal in gesprek tree met die verskillende motorfietsverenigings net soos ons die minibus-taxi’s aan boord gekry het. Ons sal ook skole, en spesifiek matrieks, teiken om hulle in te lig oor padveiligheid omdat hulle dikwels ook klein motorfietse gebruik.”

Volgens Carlisle het die aantal motorfietse op die paaie vermoedelik as gevolg van ekonomiese omstandighede toegeneem.

“Daar is drie sagte teikens op ons paaie – fietsryers, motorfietsryers en voetgangers. Dié sagte teikens moet dus meer versigtig wees.

“Ek oorweeg ’n regulasie waarvolgens motorfietsryers wat ander voertuie wil verbysteek dit nie tussen motors langs mekaar op paaie met veelvoudige bane mag doen nie. Daar sal egter eers behoorlike oorleg gepleeg word.”

Carlisle het gesê dié ryers moet hulle gedra asof hulle ’n motor bestuur en slegs aan die regterkant ’n ander voertuig verbysteek.

Minstens drie fietsryers is in Desember en twee in Januarie vanjaar in padongelukke dood.

Voetgangersterftes het afgeneem. – Alicestine October


- Die Burger

http://www.dieburger.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Motorfietsryers-gaan-dalk-vasgevat-word-20130217
Title: Re: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: Operator on February 18, 2013, 08:07:40 am
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=118042.0 (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=118042.0)
Title: Re: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: The Rock on February 18, 2013, 08:09:11 am
stem nogal saam met hierdie kommentaar:

belinda.vanniekerk.3 - Februarie 18, 2013 om 07:44
Verstaan ek reg? Mense ry soos hulle wil, hulle neem NIE motorfietsryers in ag wanneer hulle verbysteek, oorsteek, of self net van baan verander nie. Hulle jaag in ons vas, hulle stop nie by n rooi lig nie en ry n motorfiets raak en nou word ONS gestraf? ONS moet MEER versigtig wees. What a joke!!!!! Jou dom idioot KYK waar jy ry!


...en hou op om op jou selfoon te kyk as jy kar bestuur!  >:(
Title: Re: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: The Rock on February 18, 2013, 08:10:11 am
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=118042.0 (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=118042.0)
sorry nie gesien nie. merge maar die freds, mods.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Groenie on February 18, 2013, 08:11:33 am
The only place in the States where lane splitting is legal, California, just published a set of rules the govern it. Quite simple really -  read them here - http://bit.ly/XxIRJb
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 18, 2013, 08:15:43 am
Obviously is Robin Carlisle 'n oningeligde twatwaffle !
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 18, 2013, 08:16:15 am
They just tried that in France........... was mass rideout and similar what we did to the Waterfront........ thousands of bikers rode the streets, but all took the space of a car.............. traffic was chaos!

In the UK, I was told categorically by the MET Cops that we have to lane-split......... if you don't then what is the point of riding a bike, you might as well enjoy the warmth, comfort and music of a car....!

Check out this video.. ( :eek7:  cannot get the embedding right anymore....) http://youtu.be/QTi5PyWeraA

To lane split or not? The French Federation of Angry Bikers took to the roads in a 40,000 strong protest, after an official from the French Transport Ministry stated that the police would start pulling over and fining motorcyclists who lane split.

10,000 of the protesters made a point of taking up as much room as a car and not lane split which resulted in a massive road congestion in Paris, and after the French Transport Secretary Jean Marc Belotti said if bikers didn’t the like the idea that they couldn’t lane split anymore “they can take the metro like everyone else” which the bikers did and wearing full leathers, mobbing into the Paris subway system and blocking one of the lines.

… apparently the Transport Secretary has now had second thoughts and is re-considering the restrictions on lane-splitting.


http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/4086/french-federation-of-angry-bikers-protest-against-lane-splitting-ban
Title: Re: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: Jman on February 18, 2013, 08:16:27 am
Hoekom maak hulle nie eerder 'n baan vir motorfietse nie, as die aantal aan die toeneem is.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 18, 2013, 08:33:05 am
And by the way - who is the chairman of the Western Cape motorcycle association who applauded the idea (according to the radio)

Please can we have a vote of no confidence in this oke.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: katana on February 18, 2013, 08:35:33 am
I hope 'we' the motorcyclists will stand together to create chaos if this gets implemented.  F#ck that!

And F#uck the MAWC too!  I don't belong to them.  Arghhhh!!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: mountainboy on February 18, 2013, 08:40:16 am
how about stopping that lady from doing her nails this morning , sitting in her cage while driving to work

shit dude, there are bigger fish to fry and bigger problems to solve

but that said - there are just way to many bikers on the road who also lacks commen sense, most of which are using the cheapie commuter  :-\
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Kobus on February 18, 2013, 08:40:45 am
And by the way - who is the chairman of the Western Cape motorcycle association who applauded the idea (according to the radio)

Please can we have a vote of no confidence in this oke.

This oke also sounded like a d&^s.

Who are they?

Me is most likely a Sunday morning racer on his supabike and not a commuter.

Anyway, on whos behalf did he speak.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 18, 2013, 08:51:41 am
Well.............. here's "Mr farking righteous Carlisle's"  email address for his PA............ dsmit@pgwc.gov.za

Interesting read here of the same tool!  http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2012-12-11-carlisle-and-car-key-confiscation-dont-go-with-the-traffic-flow/

I just LOVE Pierre Vos's utterance..........

Power does funny things to people. A communist who becomes a minister suddenly believes he has a right – at the taxpayer’s expense – to be driven around in a million rand limousine and to stay at the luxurious Mount Nelson Hotel, probably the most colonial of hotels in Africa. Democratic Alliance (DA) leaders who squeal day and night about the flouting of the Rule of Law by the ANC suddenly blithely advocate lawlessness on the part of law enforcement officers when they become MECs......The latest victim of this kind of power-sickness is a man named Robin Carlisle, the Transport and Public Works MEC for the DA Western Cape government.

 :imaposer:

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Snoekie on February 18, 2013, 08:58:37 am
Well.............. here's "Mr farking righteous Carlisle's"  email address for his PA............ dsmit@pgwc.gov.za

Interesting read here of the same tool!  http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2012-12-11-carlisle-and-car-key-confiscation-dont-go-with-the-traffic-flow/

I just LOVE Pierre Vos's utterance..........

Power does funny things to people. A communist who becomes a minister suddenly believes he has a right – at the taxpayer’s expense – to be driven around in a million rand limousine and to stay at the luxurious Mount Nelson Hotel, probably the most colonial of hotels in Africa. Democratic Alliance (DA) leaders who squeal day and night about the flouting of the Rule of Law by the ANC suddenly blithely advocate lawlessness on the part of law enforcement officers when they become MECs......The latest victim of this kind of power-sickness is a man named Robin Carlisle, the Transport and Public Works MEC for the DA Western Cape government.

 :imaposer:



Goose, I have his direct email, any WD(s) that want to correspond with him in a professional manner on behalf of all of us?  Lemme know.......
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Kobus on February 18, 2013, 08:59:37 am
O ja, he is also the guy that want to implement a law whereby an ordinary traffic cop can decide that you look tired and confiscate your car keys for a couple of hours so that you can rest.

FFS
Title: Re: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: nemodakar on February 18, 2013, 08:59:42 am
Hoekom maak hulle nie eerder 'n baan vir motorfietse nie, as die aantal aan die toeneem is.


Ja, dan ry in Govin Mbeki af, 1 baan vir busse , 1 baan vir mororfietse en een baan vir die taxi's om in te ry en stop soos hulle wil. Karre, ag te hel met hulle, los die goed by die huis, hulle is in elk geval net in die pad.

Of stel jy voor ons gaan nog 3 jaar deur pad verleggings sodat die paaie kan weier gemaak word en dan strike ons as hulle wil tol vra vir nog so 3 jaar.  :pot:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Garfield on February 18, 2013, 09:02:01 am
Robin's email address:

Robin.Carlisle@pgwc.gov.za

When people bring real issues to his attention he passes the buck, then he spends his time thinking up idiotic shit like this.

His secretary's detail:

Deblèssé Smit
Private Secretary to Minister Robin Carlisle
Ministry of Transport and Public Works
Provincial Government Western Cape
09, Dorp Street, Cape Town 8001
Tel: 021 483 2430
Fax: 021 483 2217
Cell: 072 542 1234
Email: deblesse.smit@pgwc.gov.za
Title: Re: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: RobC on February 18, 2013, 09:02:45 am
Sover ek weet is die padreëls 'n nasionale wet, nie meer provinsiaal nie, Robin gaan teëstand kry. ::)
En hy bewys dat politici dommer as brood is, dit is nie net die ANC wat geen common sense het nie.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: the_BOBNOB on February 18, 2013, 09:03:21 am
Well.............. here's "Mr farking righteous Carlisle's"  email address for his PA............ dsmit@pgwc.gov.za

Why you want to email his PA ???

Email him - he has in the past requested feedback on stuff and gave out his email address - cannot see why you cannot use it Robin.Carlisle@westerncape.gov.za

I doubt anything will come of it, he likes to talk.

The lowering of the speed limit, this etc

If it happens I'm sure we will have the same thing that happend at the V&A Waterfront wrt to parking - general public do not stand together but the bikers general do tend to stand together.

A couple of mass rides in peak traffic taking up the full lane as requested on all highways going into town (N1, N2, M5, M3, Voortrekker, etc) would quickly show that the idea is plain stupid.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: teebag on February 18, 2013, 09:07:38 am
Hope he don't find out about 21" wheels, or you'll all have to fit one.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 18, 2013, 09:11:42 am
I hope 'we' the motorcyclists will stand together to create chaos if this gets implemented.  F#ck that!

And F#uck the MAWC too!  I don't belong to them.  Arghhhh!!
:thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 09:12:35 am
Ag genade....

(http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/Ged1Grrrr/Gifs/tumblr_lyxpyaUErr1rn95k2o1_400.gif)

Ek vote sommer ANC volgende jaar. Of is dit die jaar?

http://www.youtube.com/v/JNGD9AAIfFU?hl=en_GB&version=3&rel=0"





Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 09:17:01 am
Ek het begin 'n email skryf en toe besef ek ek is heeltemaal te stupid.

Ek kan ook nie gif's gebruik om my storie te vertel op 'n email nie. Ek sal hom maar net moet gaan moer.....  ;)

Nee seriously, die is wat hulle oor worry?! Worry meer oor die etters wat oor rooi ligte jaag! Hoeveel ouens is nie al ge T-bone nie maar hulle worry oor lanesplitting.

Liewe @#$ man!

Hey, ek dink ek het nou net daai email geskryf.... Copy, paste, send!

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 18, 2013, 09:22:12 am
 :laughing4:  same here..................  :thumleft:


Another interesting fact..............  some additional wisdom from the UK MET Police........... their statistics proved that if 10% more people used Motorcycles for transport into London - there would be a phenomenal 40% Decrease in Traffic....  :eek7:

Seems it will take years though before these idiots start the same line of thinking?

My suggestion would be to do what has been done in some of the London Burroughs..............  Bus Lanes are opened into the cities for Motorcycles - and in the afternoon - the reverse........  makes sense......... if they do the same here in Cape Town - those Red roads will be filled with people that would now feel safer to commute on 2 wheels.....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Jacobsroodt on February 18, 2013, 09:24:18 am
Dit herninner my aan die glasbottel eksperiment. Is die bottel vol as daar 'n klomp albasters in is? Nee, daar kan nog sand bykom. Maar die bottel is eers regtig vol as daar nog 'n liter water in is.
Die punt is dat daar 'n 1-1.5m baan weerskante van die wit lyn bestaan. As motorfietsryers dit met oorleg gebruik is daar plek vir almal. Meeste motorbestuurders erken die reg van motorfietse om daar te ry - baie maak "oop" om motorfietse te laat verbykom. So help ons mekaar om vinniger by ons bestemming uit te kom.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 09:28:27 am
Hier is my email:

Mr. Carlisle

I just read the article where you were quoted as saying the Western Cape Transport Department is thinking of making lanesplitting illegal.

http://www.dieburger.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Motorfietsryers-gaan-dalk-vasgevat-word-20130217

I am but a humble biker but all I would like to say is this is a monumental stupid idea! If you really want to help us motorcycle riders start cracking down harder on the people (STILL) using cellphones while driving and people jumping the red lights. Both these issues cause much more harm to us and although I know you have identified these two issues the problem is getting worse, not better.

Making lanesplitting illegal will make our roads even more congested. Or maybe that is your way of forcing more people to use the My-Citi bus service which although a great idea and working which I applaud you is still not as economical or fun than getting to work and back on my motorcycle.

I ask you to watch this video. It will explain what I am trying to convey but lack in written skills as I am but a humble biker.

&feature=player_embedded

Best regards,
Grrrr....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Geotraveller on February 18, 2013, 09:49:47 am
email sent as well. Spam the bugger.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: AntonW on February 18, 2013, 09:50:21 am
The only place in the States where lane splitting is legal, California, just published a set of rules the govern it. Quite simple really -  read them here - http://bit.ly/XxIRJb


This makes a lot of sense, Carlyle needs a copy
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Jacko on February 18, 2013, 10:00:28 am
The only place in the States where lane splitting is legal, California, just published a set of rules the govern it. Quite simple really -  read them here - http://bit.ly/XxIRJb


This makes a lot of sense, Carlyle needs a copy poehsklap.

Fixed.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Pistonpete on February 18, 2013, 10:05:03 am
I tried to send RC a copy....two e mail addresses...we'l see ::)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 10:11:34 am
More people need to mail him.

Kom nou ouens, ek gaan nie die fooken bus vat nie!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Buddy on February 18, 2013, 10:15:50 am
Robin Carlisle is a blustering idiot, all fizz and very little lemonade. I remember his punting of the Draeger breathylizer, and we know he got his ass kicked there in the courts. I'd vote ANC just to see the back of him!!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: the_BOBNOB on February 18, 2013, 10:17:03 am
maybe we should rather be emailing mrs zille

tell her in no uncertain terms that he is going to cost her votes
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 10:17:53 am
maybe we should rather be emailing mrs zille

tell her in no uncertain terms that he is going to cost her votes

Email?

I will forward it to her too.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 18, 2013, 10:20:39 am
Also

This Hennie van der Merwe or whatever his name is from MAWC needs some orientation. He sounds like a poephol.

He does not speak for all bikers.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DR BIG 750 on February 18, 2013, 10:54:56 am
Agreed kak idea, must be tjop this dick, must say though last time I was in CT last year for vmx , things work a lot better there, than here under the congress theives, could alienate some dp votes, why commute on a scoot if  you cant save time by lane splitting and not speeding, commuting on a scoot is not fun in my book but more efficient, than also do not whine when scoots take up a whole parking bay if he wants  you to act like a car then take the whole deal, moron... see you CT dogz next month at vmx again
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: vigilant on February 18, 2013, 11:35:04 am
It's a stupid idea, and here in the city of grey death we see on a daily basis how stupid this idea is.

I lane split the N1, it's not lane splitting bikes that i'm picking up everyday, it's the plonkers in the suicide lane that keep trying to kill themselves.  If you ban lanesplitting, there will be more suicide lane riders, which equals a greater likelihood of a smash.

Had some plonker on a silver yama nearly take me out this morning. Thinking like a cage, he rode towards the suicide lane as fast as his bike could carry him, NOT CHECKING THE BIKER LANE FIRST! Blerry twatwaffle. Then, THEN when i rev to get his attention, he shouts at me to slow down  :eek7:

The next schmuck who does that had better watch the freak out.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Soundboi on February 18, 2013, 11:36:42 am
I think its a fantastic idea.
Implement it right after wearing seat belts, using your indicator to turn or change lanes and not using your cellphone in a car, once EVERYBODY in a car does those things then we will stop lane splitting.

Soooooo....



Never.
 
Obviously this bloke is a retard and should be taken up as such.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Alan on February 18, 2013, 11:38:14 am
I've sent him a decent email.. I'll post his response. I've emailed him before bitching about the Speed limits along Otto Du Plessis.. Will see if he responds. :dousing:

Nothing stopping all and sundry from emailing him your thoughts, and complaints about the Taxi's, and peeps talking and smsing on cel phones etc.. help him to see the light guys.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Alan on February 18, 2013, 12:29:26 pm
Here's his reply.

"Please note that I am asking for comment on this matter, not introducing it as a law.
Further, that I am trying to save lives of motorcyclists, which is the only category of road fatalities which is rising.
Also, that the bulk of our fatalities are perpetrated by drivers of sedan cars. Taxis used to contribute 11% of our fatalities. This is now down to 5% precisely because we have taken very firm action in this area. Over 3000 taxis have been impounded; resting periods and speed limits enforced.
As a result we have not had a major taxi accident since Nov 2011.
The speed limits you refer to are within the City of Cape Town, which, as I have informed you before, does not fall in my jurisdiction.
We take action to save lives on the road, and despite your misgivings, have been spectacularly successful.
Nowhere in the world has the death rate on the roads been reduced by 30% in 3 years."


I'm not in a position toa rgue his points sufficiently, if there are dogs who know more, I invite you guys to take him up on his invitation and discuss it further, otherwise if they DO pass this as law, we can't then jump up and down and say we weren't giving the chance to debate on it..
 


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: the_BOBNOB on February 18, 2013, 12:32:44 pm
ask him if the number of people using motorcycles have stayed the same

if the number of people on motorcycles have increased (which i suspect has due to fuel prices) would it not make sense that the % of accidents would go up ???

if we ban all busses then bus accident rates would be zero and that would mean you are successful in policing bus accidents  ::)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 12:33:43 pm
I got nothing back.

But maybe I shouldn't have called his idea monumentally stupid in my email...  :lol8:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: vigilant on February 18, 2013, 12:42:35 pm
Can also ask what POSITIVE steps the city is taking.

Like training etc.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Alan on February 18, 2013, 12:42:44 pm
 :laughing4: :imaposer:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 12:50:18 pm
Here is my reply:

"Hi Grrrr, I am but a humble MEC, but I want to save lives on the road.
Over the last 3 years we have brought down road fatalities by 29%. During the same period, motor cycle deaths went up by 33%.
Obviously I am concerned, and must seek causes and remedies.
Your feedback is therefore part of that process
Many thanks.

Regards
R
"
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Jacobsroodt on February 18, 2013, 12:55:15 pm
Twice in two weeks I witnessed and reprimanded people skipping red lights. The last one was a black guy in a Isuzu bakkie skipping the red light in Koeberg Road in a northerly direction. He had a child standing on the seat and neither wore a seat belt. I counted 5 after the light went red and he went through. When I confronted him he said "No, no, no.. It's not like that", and when he ran out of options he said "Your time is up" - meaning you white people's time is up.

Four times in two weeks I had to stop while people skipped stop streets in the southern part of Table View. I had to stop so that they could skip their stop streets - not to be overrun! One white guy under 30 was selecting CD's - says he did not see me (I know why), one was a taxi - driver had Zim drivers license, and one was my own staff member! in a C class Merc (I drove a Kombi with daylight driving lights on at the time)!

This despite my bike looking like a Christmas tree with amber light covers, spots and LED driving lights in the hand-guards! IMHO people have just become Laissez-faire - not using indicators, using cell phones, not being alert while driving.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: AgentK on February 18, 2013, 12:57:24 pm
A non-biker recently asked me why no-one has petitioned the government to make the right hand "emergency lane" on freeways a bikers only lane during peek traffic hours only, similar to the bus lanes.

At the moment the likes of the sliver Yama referred to by Vigilant earlier are using these lanes indiscriminately.
Why not regulate it and put some control in place?
You will always have the a-hole screwing it up for the rest, but if such a regulation is passed and effectively communicated to the motorcycle community (clubs, dealers, forums, etc), I think it might just work.

We (motorcyclists) can sort out the a-holes ourselves...  :pain10: :director: :glasses2:

I for one think that it is good idea.
Rather implement ideas like this, instead of banning lane splitting.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 01:07:40 pm
I just sent him another email.

Robin

I understand you are a busy man but one last thing.... You say motorcycle deaths have increased but could that not be because the number of motorcycles on our roads have increased?

Also, have you ever been rear ended by another car while in traffic when out driving? I have, twice in the last two years while driving my car and while it was a fender bender it would have been much worse if I was on my motorcycle being forced to ride/drive like a car.

I know you are trying to save lives and this is still just a thought at this stage but banning lanesplitting is not the way to go. Better training of "new" riders entering the daily commute in and out of Cape Town and getting tougher on motorists that keep on using their cellphones and jumping red lights would be a better start in my book.

Thank you for your response.

Regards,
Grrrr....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jimjim on February 18, 2013, 01:13:21 pm
Not sure if already posted but I read today that Robin Carlisle, Western Cape transport MEC said yesterday " I am contemplating a regulation that will prohibit motorcyclists from riding between lanes - because that is where they die" "I am not saying we are going to implement but I am thinking about it"


Statistically correct? It will help if we know the actual statistics - gory as they may be - and rather make recommendations from an actual motorcycle rider point of view.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 01:15:19 pm
Everybody here that commutes should send him a email.

Unless you like sitting in traffic....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Alan on February 18, 2013, 01:46:42 pm
Grr, he's also responding to me, So it's good debate. his recent reply he claims the WC Motorcycle Association on KFM this morning said they came out AGAINST lane Splitting!!  :eek7:

Oh well.. Should they force this law, I'll rename myself Billy the Kid, cos I'm gonna be a wanted outlaw.. No farking chance I'll NOT lane Split, thats the entire reason we ride bikes I'd think.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Kobus on February 18, 2013, 01:53:00 pm
maybe we should rather be emailing mrs zille

tell her in no uncertain terms that he is going to cost her votes

I did that with the reduction in speed limit story.

PS: WC Motorcycle Association............. who the F^% are they. We must spam them.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 01:55:47 pm
Grr, he's also responding to me, So it's good debate. his recent reply he claims the WC Motorcycle Association on KFM this morning said they came out AGAINST lane Splitting!!  :eek7:

Oh well.. Should they force this law, I'll rename myself Billy the Kid, cos I'm gonna be a wanted outlaw.. No farking chance I'll NOT lane Split, thats the entire reason we ride bikes I'd think.

Who the @#$% is this WC Motorcycle Association? I don't belong to them and they sure as shit don't speak on my behalf....

Again, you guys reading here not emailing him, get off your g@t and do something to show these people it is a k@k idea. That or buy a bus pass...
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: RobC on February 18, 2013, 02:08:49 pm
Here's his reply.

"Please note that I am asking for comment on this matter, not introducing it as a law.
Further, that I am trying to save lives of motorcyclists, which is the only category of road fatalities which is rising.
Also, that the bulk of our fatalities are perpetrated by drivers of sedan cars. Taxis used to contribute 11% of our fatalities. This is now down to 5% precisely because we have taken very firm action in this area. Over 3000 taxis have been impounded; resting periods and speed limits enforced.
As a result we have not had a major taxi accident since Nov 2011.
The speed limits you refer to are within the City of Cape Town, which, as I have informed you before, does not fall in my jurisdiction.
We take action to save lives on the road, and despite your misgivings, have been spectacularly successful.
Nowhere in the world has the death rate on the roads been reduced by 30% in 3 years."


I'm not in a position toa rgue his points sufficiently, if there are dogs who know more, I invite you guys to take him up on his invitation and discuss it further, otherwise if they DO pass this as law, we can't then jump up and down and say we weren't giving the chance to debate on it..
 



My comment to him would be... how about this you political cretin "City of Cape Town, which, as I have informed you before, does not fall in my jurisdiction." and that is where most lane splitting is done... flipping retard.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Dusty Rusty on February 18, 2013, 02:34:54 pm
http://www.mawc.co.za/contact-us/
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Dogmatix on February 18, 2013, 02:41:57 pm
My mail to him..

Dear Mr Carlisle

I refer to the article in Die Beeld regarding the possibility of banning lane splitting by motorcyclists in the Western Cape.

I commute daily on the N1, M5, N2 and M3 highways between Monte Vista and Steenberg. I always lane split and it is both economical and safe to do so. I would suggest that before you legislate something that you at least understand the reasons for the behaviour you deem so dangerous.

Being on a motorcycle is inherently dangerous, nobody disputes that. However that is a choice we make, especially for commuting as it save a lot of time being able to safely pass vehicles that are moving slowly or stopped due to the volumes of such vehicles. Motorcycles do not need to stop and line up behind one another but can safely pass the obstacles in short time. As you are well aware congestion plays a major part of our city’s traffic problems. Being on a motorcycle means you are not responsible for any congestion. In my 70km daily commute I am seldom disappointed in the gracious and respectful manner the thousands of cars I pass behave. There is always space to move between the cars and they now expect motorcycles to use the ‘biking lane’.

Another aspect to consider is the fuel saving a motorcycle allows. We are not sitting idling in traffic for kilometre after kilometre but are able to safely move at a very fuel efficient pace through the stationary traffic.

As more and more people cotton on to the benefits of riding a motorcycle to work every day it is to be expected that the number of accidents involving motorcycles will also increase. I have noticed an increase of at least 40 % in the number of people on motorised two wheelers in the last 8 years since I began riding to work every day. This is sure to rise due to the increase of the fuel price. A few of the riders do tend to ride too quickly between the cars it is true, but that is an educational issue and should not be used as ammunition against the multitude of riders who do not. I have yet to hear of a fatality involving a motorcycle lane splitting. I am sure there may be a few but the majority of fatal motorcycle accidents tend to involve a car / truck / taxi who has done something illegal, not a lane splitting motorcyclist.

Our safety is paramount to us and any move made to improve our space on the road is welcomed, however banning lane splitting is not the answer at all.

I offer to take from your place of residence to your offices in the early morning when the traffic loads are at their highest. That way you will gain first hand knowledge of the benefits of lane splitting safely.

Sincerely
Dogmatix
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: rogerg on February 18, 2013, 02:43:11 pm
Here's a link to Lane Splitting in California.

It is illegal to 'block' a motorcycle !!

http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitting.html


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: RobC on February 18, 2013, 02:43:52 pm
http://www.mawc.co.za/contact-us/
dis nie die MAC's nie? :pot:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Husamarine on February 18, 2013, 02:51:44 pm
As the MEC would like comments for discussion, best would be to compile a list of considerations:

like -

1) Motorcycles, whether they be air cooled or water cooled need flowing air in order to stay cool. Would be difficult with bikes having to stay in their lanes during peak hour traffic.
2) Constantly rising fuel costs are forcing more and more commuters into using bikes for their transport. More bikes, more recorded bike accidents. Logic.
3) Increased traffic congestion. One would dearly like to open up the flow of traffic. Increased traffic congestions lead to more accidents.
4) Safety of bikers trapped between two vehicles on highways as opposed to being able to lane split.
5) Making biking attractive to commuters and as a result relieving traffic congestion. By forcing bikers to stay in their lanes like motorvehicles takes away one of the biggest advantages to biking.

Add to the list.

Surely one can kill the debate by overwhelming arguments against the proposed law?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Rags on February 18, 2013, 03:01:41 pm
Also sent an email.

I wonder what the accident statistics are on rear ended accidents. If those now translate to motorcycles it could become a serious problem, no?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Scooterbike on February 18, 2013, 03:07:24 pm
I commute on the N2 into CT, half the time I commute with my bike and have made some observations.
Traffic specially on the N2 is just getting worse by the day, SW to CT (50km) takes 2h by car in peak. I am in favour of lane splitting, but believe some rules regarding this should be laid down. Like at what speed is it acceptable to lane split and which lane. Yes lane split but do it in a safe and considerate manner. You get the odd biker that lane split at 140km/h while the cars are doing 20km/h! and then gets angry cause a car did not see him coming at that speed.
I tend to lane split ‘next to’ the bus lane as I find this easier and the taxis are sort off polite and is more aware than most car drivers… but then I got pulled by a cop because I was on the bus lane side of the white/yellow line!
I also agree that deaths may have gone up, because there are now much more bikers on the road. How many of these are due to lane splitting…??
Billions in China cannot be wrong!!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 18, 2013, 03:12:00 pm
Would it not be better to use your actual name - rather than forum nickname...? Surely you're not going to be taken seriously...?   :eek7:

I see Billy De Beer is Treasurer of the MAWC ........... he's a decent chap and could maybe shed some light on what they meant...?

I've also sent the MEC an email - with some positive suggestions as well.
Let's rather see if we can get the dude on our side so that other issues can be discussed - i.e. parking, lanes, security..... etc.  He's going to want to do something positive to shy away from something that is obviously backfiring...!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 03:13:23 pm
Would it not be better to use your actual name - rather than forum nickname...? Surely you're not going to be taken seriously...?   :eek7:

 :spitcoffee:

You don't think I sent that email signed "Grrrr...." do you?  :lol8:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 03:20:33 pm
Maybe I should send him one like this:

Listen here.

This is a k@k idea. Stop it or I will hunt you down and kick your ass.

Now, swear to me! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8r-TiLSVg)
Batman


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 18, 2013, 03:29:39 pm
Would it not be better to use your actual name - rather than forum nickname...? Surely you're not going to be taken seriously...?   :eek7:

 :spitcoffee:

You don't think I sent that email signed "Grrrr...." do you?  :lol8:


..........  well on this forum - ANYTHING's possible   :imaposer:  .......... hehe
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Dogmatix on February 18, 2013, 03:35:45 pm
Would it not be better to use your actual name - rather than forum nickname...? Surely you're not going to be taken seriously...?   :eek7:

 :spitcoffee:

You don't think I sent that email signed "Grrrr...." do you?  :lol8:

Ha ha, I can just see his face when he reads 1000 mails all signed, Dogmatix, Goose, Plankie, JustKnatters.........


..........  well on this forum - ANYTHING's possible   :imaposer:  .......... hehe
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: vigilant on February 18, 2013, 03:39:53 pm
A non-biker recently asked me why no-one has petitioned the government to make the right hand "emergency lane" on freeways a bikers only lane during peek traffic hours only, similar to the bus lanes.

Rather implement ideas like this, instead of banning lane splitting.

That's almost a great post!!! Except ...

Why don't people who want to ride bikes to work learn to ride them properly BEFORE tackling morning traffic?

This is a real question.

At the moment, we have cagers climbing on bikes, riding and thinking like cagers, and writing themselves off.

Why are bikers riding into stationary vehicles at 80km/h?

Several this year already. Answer that BEFORE anything else. And please also explain how you will prevent broken down cars entering this biker suicide lane?

Lane splitting is safer than suicide lane. Even the beemer i picked up the other day crashed his bike because he was coming out the suicide lane, travelling too fast for his own damn good.


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 18, 2013, 03:47:31 pm
Well, I am almost off. And I am going to lanesplit 100% of the way.

Except that little dirt track opposite KTM CPT, there I will sommer "split" from the road.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Rags on February 18, 2013, 03:55:51 pm
Also got a response:

Thanks,
I have just been studying the California guidelines for Lane splitting which, if applied here, would already constitute a major leap forward.
I am getting some really good stuff from the motorcyclists – and thanks for yours.
 
Regards
R


At least he seems to have an open mind about this.  8)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Pistonpete on February 18, 2013, 04:18:18 pm
Also got a response:

Thanks,
I have just been studying the California guidelines for Lane splitting which, if applied here, would already constitute a major leap forward.
I am getting some really good stuff from the motorcyclists – and thanks for yours.
 
Regards
R


At least he seems to have an open mind about this.  8)
I sent it to him a few times...i'm sure others did to!  :thumleft:
Makes sense...
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 18, 2013, 04:19:11 pm
Also got a response:

Thanks,
I have just been studying the California guidelines for Lane splitting which, if applied here, would already constitute a major leap forward.
I am getting some really good stuff from the motorcyclists – and thanks for yours.
 
Regards
R


At least he seems to have an open mind about this.  8)
thats cool! at least he's listening to what we have to say!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Alan on February 18, 2013, 04:30:44 pm
Jaa, he does seem to be TRYING.. So let's help where we can.  :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 18, 2013, 04:42:39 pm
an extract of my long email to him:

It seems in SA you can still go write a Learners licence and without ANY training – buy and get onto 2-wheels..... THIS IS SHOCKING indeed and you might as well hand new riders a loaded firearm!
 
.............. one of the projects we’re hoping to get off the ground – is the CBT-type certification here in SA. School-based training would also be an option so that youngsters – our future motorcycle and car users – receive proactive training before being allowed on our roads. We feel that with correct training and road-sense the future road users might have better understanding and respect for other road users and hopefully help decrease accidents and fatalities.



his response:

Hi Peter,
I am discovering that the motor bike community is indeed remarkable.
I have been getting the most useful feedback from various people, including yours.
Love the idea of school-based training.


 :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: J3THRO on February 18, 2013, 05:58:37 pm
Geagte Meneer Carlisle:

JOU SUSSIE SE VISSIE!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Captain Zef on February 18, 2013, 06:09:52 pm
How are they gonna catch you?

A traffic cop flashed his lights at me while lane splitting down Kragga kamma rd. the problem is he could not chase me he was stuck in traffic ;D
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: funduro on February 18, 2013, 07:04:59 pm
Statistics of how the motorcylist died i.e lane splitting, speeding and what not is how he should be considering this ban.He does not  give these and I am sure there are none. Without these specifics he is thumb sucking.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: buzzlightyear on February 18, 2013, 08:45:35 pm
I've also sent him an email, will publish it with his reply when I receive it.  :thumleft:

I don't think he thought this one through, and I don't think he counted on the response his thought is generating. The more constructive inputs the better  :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Operator on February 18, 2013, 09:56:30 pm
This is just a publicity stunt.  I cant see that Capetown will have a different set of rules for traffic than the rest of
the country.
There is a national traffic law in place, it is not too shabby.....

A different set of rules will be too confusing, especially for tourists
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: JK on February 18, 2013, 10:04:41 pm
Why doesnt he start by formally approving and maybe even making it law for bikers to carry a coloured headlight cover in the daytime 
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on February 18, 2013, 11:04:06 pm
Just seen this thread now. This truly is a pretty Screwed-up Idea of wanting to get "Lane Splitting" banned. :patch: :patch:

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Inprogress on February 18, 2013, 11:08:53 pm
The only place in the States where lane splitting is legal, California, just published a set of rules the govern it. Quite simple really -  read them here - http://bit.ly/XxIRJb

I love this, wish more grasp it: "Don't rely on loud pipes to keep you safe, loud pipes often startle people and poison the attitude of car drivers toward motorcyclists."
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Gérrard on February 18, 2013, 11:09:43 pm
I'm an anti-lanesplitter, so with the guvmunt on this one.  :dousing:  :pot:

Of course, it means nothing to me... in the EC we just ride as we please and the toughest survives.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Inprogress on February 18, 2013, 11:14:15 pm
I'm a pro-lanesplitter.

But I second the EC driving...FFS! I'm almost done with my formal request to VW and GM to exclude indicators and indicator stalks on all cars sold in the EC. It should reduce costs of cars for us down here.  :deal:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: ss on February 18, 2013, 11:21:25 pm
Kom ons wees rustig en kyk liewer wat gaan gebeur. As die reel vir ons geskryf word geld dit ook vir Metro. Hulle gaan dan hul eie reels breek om wetstoepassing te doen.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Yami Super 10 on February 19, 2013, 12:04:59 am
I was just my old self, did not send a very nice email :peepwall: So would rather not even post it here :deal:
Might post his reply. If he ever would reply to it?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 12:32:01 am
Meanwhile, in France, a recent proclamation from a Transport Ministry official that police would start citing bikers for “filtering” between cars prompted the FFMC-that’s the “French Federation of Angry Bikers”-to organize a massive protest. Over 40,000 motorcyclists turned out, making a point to not lane-split, being sure to take up as much space as a car. The result was hours of massive traffic congestion on Paris’ ring road, and further snarling of the Metro when hundreds of helmet-clad bikers stuffed subway cars in response to French Transport Secretary Jean-Marc Belotti telling motorcyclists that “they can take the metro like everyone else” if they don’t like being told not to lane-split. A happy outcome: Belotti has met with the FFMC and is re-considering the restrictions on lane-splitting.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 12:34:36 am
If more biker made their bikes more visible by adding orange Running lights and rode more respectfully then we would also then earn respect and be given the gap to pass. I ride the N1 plus other roads fairly often and am amazed by the amount of cars that move across when they see my rinning lights and give me a gap to pass between safely... I also take the time to acknoledge them & say thanks...A little respect goes a very long way... What does erk me seriously no matter in my car or on my bike is when we are all stopped at a traffic light with the front cars right on the line and a wannabee biker jumps in front & casually parks himself in front of the car & blocks the whole pedestrian crossing. Now thats a stupid & dangerious thing which gets us real bikers a bad name... Comon bikers there are certian things you just do not do ride properly or park it until you learn how to...
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 12:39:56 am
 Its also & constantly done by the traffic Cops on their bikes in slow moving traffic so why is it suddenly wrong for normal responsible riders... I see the issue being sour grapes for the most by cage drivers simply because we cn pass them & get there quicker & safer - so if you have an issue with the "Safe Decient Bikers"who di lane splitting in a safe manner then simply - WHY NOT PARK YOUR CAR & GET A BIKE... I habe been riding Motor Bikes since I was 16 and the only Issues I have encountered have all come from people in CARS that do not respect other road users & show the most aggression ever....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Pullaway on February 19, 2013, 08:07:03 am
On a positive note, one sometimes find the motorists that deliberately close a gap or try and push you of the road - now they probably think the motorcycle is busy with a illegal manoeuvre lanespliting. Now RC's proposals at least let these guys know, that at the moment it is perfectly legal!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 08:16:06 am
Has anyone got his email address for me to send him an email that may & hopefully let him see the light....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 19, 2013, 08:19:16 am
dpr

see page 1 or 2 of this thread.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 08:32:42 am
THere are those types on the roads & I find they are mostly old doddery people in big 4x4 types & young yuppie okies & women in their fancy toy cars that seem to think its fun to do that... But in the most I have found that most drivers Even here in Cape Town actually widen the gap when they see my orange running lights & allow me to procees.. I do acknoledge them && say thanks... Its mostly the twits on their lous super bikes that "PUSH"through at high speeds bumping mirrors along the way that irritate the drivers as well as me. I have absoutely for any idiot chasing through traffic making dangerous manouvers in traffic at any time. Showing & riding with respect earns respect... I have even had conversations with drivers when stopped next to them & none have ever been agro towards me or my bike & most actually complement me with the "Nice Bike" complement. I normally reply with thanks & you should give it a try some say & find out how refreshing it is...
So People RIDE WITH RESPECT & SHOW RESPECT TO OTHER ROAD USERS.....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: TheBear on February 19, 2013, 08:36:13 am
We should all thank Mr Carlisle for his statement.  He has cleared up an age old debate for us.  If he is planning to make lane splittin illegal, it stands to reason therefore, that it is legal at present.   :ricky:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 08:36:57 am
Jaa, he does seem to be TRYING.. So let's help where we can.  :thumleft:

What is his email address please
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 08:40:40 am
How are they gonna catch you?

A traffic cop flashed his lights at me while lane splitting down Kragga kamma rd. the problem is he could not chase me he was stuck in traffic ;D

Amazing all the motorcycle traffic cops do it constantly on all roads & everyday... Are there 2 sets of law..... I also see traffic cops in their gages with any seat belts on as for the police in their vehicles. also see them on their cell phones constantly..
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 19, 2013, 08:41:08 am
Jaa, he does seem to be TRYING.. So let's help where we can.  :thumleft:

What is his email address please

Lees en presteer.

dpr

see page 1 or 2 of this thread.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 19, 2013, 08:43:19 am
Jaa, he does seem to be TRYING.. So let's help where we can.  :thumleft:

What is his email address please

Lees en presteer.

dpr

see page 1 or 2 of this thread.

dpr

see page 1 or 2 of this thread.   
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 19, 2013, 08:47:09 am
I was just my old self, did not send a very nice email :peepwall: So would rather not even post it here :deal:
Might post his reply. If he ever would reply to it?
that is exactly what we dont need right now!  :deal:
Title: Re: Motorfietsryers gaan dalk vasgevat word
Post by: Jman on February 19, 2013, 08:47:34 am
Hoekom maak hulle nie eerder 'n baan vir motorfietse nie, as die aantal aan die toeneem is.


Ja, dan ry in Govin Mbeki af, 1 baan vir busse , 1 baan vir mororfietse en een baan vir die taxi's om in te ry en stop soos hulle wil. Karre, ag te hel met hulle, los die goed by die huis, hulle is in elk geval net in die pad.

Of stel jy voor ons gaan nog 3 jaar deur pad verleggings sodat die paaie kan weier gemaak word en dan strike ons as hulle wil tol vra vir nog so 3 jaar.  :pot:

Nee bliksem, it'll be easier just to lane split
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Yami Super 10 on February 19, 2013, 09:13:53 am
I was just my old self, did not send a very nice email :peepwall: So would rather not even post it here :deal:
Might post his reply. If he ever would reply to it?
that is exactly what we dont need right now!  :deal:

 :snorting: :sip: :spitcoffee:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Frog on February 19, 2013, 09:14:33 am
This is just a publicity stunt.  I cant see that Capetown will have a different set of rules for traffic than the rest of
the country.
There is a national traffic law in place, it is not too shabby.....
I might be mistaken but is it not only in the Cape that they can confiscate your cell phone if you are caught using it while driving. As far as I know this law does not apply elsewhere, you just receive a fine?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: lecap on February 19, 2013, 09:27:33 am

...they can confiscate your cell phone if you are caught using it while driving...

Does not seem to make any difference. IMHO they should rather confiscate the CAR for a day (and of course charge you for impounding & you have to collect in Stikland). They can keep the phone to call a taxi :evil6:
Maybe that yould get all those twats off their pohnes
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: lonerider on February 19, 2013, 09:49:42 am
hijack

It's been suggested elsewhere that one just holds the offender at the roadside for a period of time - an hour  maybe... I like this idea...! A fine can be quashed or ignored, time is gone.

/hijack

I like that Mr Carlisle is showing an open mind. Constructive emails showing the benefits of lane-splitting, requesting better training, increasing awareness, allowing increased visibility measures (like orange headlight filters) will achieve far more in bringing  the law onto our side than acting like combative biker-gang members will.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: TheBear on February 19, 2013, 09:52:56 am
This is just a publicity stunt.  I cant see that Capetown will have a different set of rules for traffic than the rest of
the country.
There is a national traffic law in place, it is not too shabby.....
I might be mistaken but is it not only in the Cape that they can confiscate your cell phone if you are caught using it while driving. As far as I know this law does not apply elsewhere, you just receive a fine?

Correct. 
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: TheBear on February 19, 2013, 09:54:20 am

/hijack

I like that Mr Carlisle is showing an open mind. Constructive emails showing the benefits of lane-splitting, requesting better training, increasing awareness, allowing increased visibility measures (like orange headlight filters) will achieve far more in bringing  the law onto our side than acting like combative biker-gang members will.

Very true.  Mr Carlisle is quite prepared to listen and discuss.  In fact, he is probably the only MC who contacts organisations like Think Bike, etc. to get their opinion on issues.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Soundboi on February 19, 2013, 09:55:21 am

...they can confiscate your cell phone if you are caught using it while driving...

Does not seem to make any difference. IMHO they should rather confiscate the CAR for a day (and of course charge you for impounding & you have to collect in Stikland). They can keep the phone to call a taxi :evil6:
Maybe that yould get all those twats off their pohnes
(http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee392/Oros666/P-word.gif)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: TheBear on February 19, 2013, 09:57:52 am

...they can confiscate your cell phone if you are caught using it while driving...

Does not seem to make any difference. IMHO they should rather confiscate the CAR for a day (and of course charge you for impounding & you have to collect in Stikland). They can keep the phone to call a taxi :evil6:
Maybe that yould get all those twats off their pohnes

The dude in charge in Johannesburg has been doing something similar for the last year or so.  For certain moving violations, you get arrested and held in the local jail cell for a few hours, after which bail is granted and you then appear in court two days later.  Basically, your folly, sets you back the fine and two days of you rlife.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: buzzlightyear on February 19, 2013, 10:04:36 am
My mail:

Quote
Good day Mr Carlisle,

I've corresponded with you before on the issue of motorcycles riding reckless and often without numberplates through Franschhoek Pass over weekends.  I read in the media that you are considering banning motorcycles from lane splitting due to the high increase in motorcycle accident fatalities.

According to http://www.iol.co.za/motoring/bikes-quads-karts/lane-splitting-ban-for-bikes-mooted-1.1471930 the figure in 2008 was 63, and in 2012 it was 84. This is a 33% increase over the four years, do you have any figures available in terms of the number of licensed motorcycles for 2008 vs 2012? I would hazard a guess that the number of motorcycles has also increased over this period, which would make the increase in fatalities almost a given, if we accept that less experienced or new riders would have taken to the streets?

Do you have data available to indicate where and during which times these fatalities took place? I've been commuting on the N1 towards town for 6+ years, having covered about 75000+ km doing so, accident free. I have seen one or two accidents during my commute, but have never seen a fatality, so I have to question the ban on lane-splitting based on my experience. I have found that a courteous 'Thank you!' wave afterwards does a lot for me with regards to people making space for me to safely pass. Hell even the taxis on the N2 between the M5 and the M3 on my daily commute move over!

I would be very hesitant to queue in-between the cars on the way to work for the simple reason that cars are bigger and people know that I as a motorcyclist will take evasive action so there will inevitably be car drivers that will just push into our lanes taking scant regard for our safety. This creates the possibility for more confrontation and injury as opposed to less, in my opinion.

Whilst I applaud your endeavour to make the roads safer, it also has to be done in a manner that does not add more traffic to the roads by preventing motorcycles from moving through traffic. I also think trying to police lane-splitting is a waste of resources when there are other offences like people talking on cellphones (STILL see that daily on the N1), unroadworthy vehicles, illegal yellow-lane overtaking by taxis, etc that have far bigger potential to cause accidents and bigger ones too.

Maybe some rider training days for novices can be done in conjunction with ThinkBike or the traffic department to teach safe riding skills? Training could also be done at schools, since a lot of learners also ride scooters and small bikes.

We as motorcyclists are very aware that a great deal of our safety lies in defensive riding, so we tend to ride accordingly. As they say: 'There are old bikers and bold bikers, but not old, bold bikers'.

Best Regards,

Response from RC:

Quote
In haste. Bike ownership growing at 5% pa; bike fatalities at 10% pa. We have a problem, and it is fairly global.
Have had wonderful mature feedback from the biker community, with some noted exceptions.
Will get back to you with district breakdowns – please nah if you don’t hear.
 
Regards

Guys please keep the comments to RC constructive and mature, I believe it will go a LONG way in how this pans out.

 ;)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 19, 2013, 11:36:31 am
Seems I need to revise my original assesment of this guy.

Looks like he is prepared to listen. Will keep my eyes on this issue.

By the way - thumbs up to all the guys who sent him mature emails.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 19, 2013, 12:05:50 pm
Seems I need to revise my original assesment of this guy.

Looks like he is prepared to listen. Will keep my eyes on this issue.

By the way - thumbs up to all the guys who sent him mature emails.

Agreed.  I was about to send some seriously dodgy mails to the guy when I found this thread.  As usual, a mature approach seems to work a bit better. :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Jacobsroodt on February 19, 2013, 12:23:05 pm
Seems I need to revise my original assesment of this guy.

Looks like he is prepared to listen. Will keep my eyes on this issue.

By the way - thumbs up to all the guys who sent him mature emails.
Het jy nog al jou duime, Hando? >:D
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 12:45:34 pm
Also got a response:

Thanks,
I have just been studying the California guidelines for Lane splitting which, if applied here, would already constitute a major leap forward.
I am getting some really good stuff from the motorcyclists – and thanks for yours.
 
Regards
R


At least he seems to have an open mind about this.  8)

This is good to hear.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 12:46:14 pm
an extract of my long email to him:

It seems in SA you can still go write a Learners licence and without ANY training – buy and get onto 2-wheels..... THIS IS SHOCKING indeed and you might as well hand new riders a loaded firearm!
 
.............. one of the projects we’re hoping to get off the ground – is the CBT-type certification here in SA. School-based training would also be an option so that youngsters – our future motorcycle and car users – receive proactive training before being allowed on our roads. We feel that with correct training and road-sense the future road users might have better understanding and respect for other road users and hopefully help decrease accidents and fatalities.



his response:

Hi Peter,
I am discovering that the motor bike community is indeed remarkable.
I have been getting the most useful feedback from various people, including yours.
Love the idea of school-based training.


 :thumleft:


Awesome !

I will even help with volunteering for this if need be.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 12:46:50 pm
How are they gonna catch you?

A traffic cop flashed his lights at me while lane splitting down Kragga kamma rd. the problem is he could not chase me he was stuck in traffic ;D

I wouldn't suggest you try that with one of the guys on their ST1300's here.

;D
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Buddy on February 19, 2013, 01:21:20 pm
I still think a Mass Ride on the N1 starting at 7.00am in Paarl going to Cape Town will demonstrate the folly of making lane splitting illegal.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 01:32:49 pm
I still think a Mass Ride on the N1 starting at 7.00am in Paarl going to Cape Town will demonstrate the folly of making lane splitting illegal.

Me too, but that can be considered after the law was made official.
At this stage he is still exploring avenues and possibilities - and by the looks of things he is open to suggestions regarding options that makes sense.

I get the feeling he wants to find a solution that makes it safer for bikers and it doesn't necessarily have to involve banning lane splitting.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: the_BOBNOB on February 19, 2013, 01:38:26 pm
this is what we need

(http://beta.taopo.org/sites/default/files/mmda-motor.lane_.1.png)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: vigilant on February 19, 2013, 01:39:43 pm
I still think a Mass Ride on the N1 starting at 7.00am in Paarl going to Cape Town will demonstrate the folly of making lane splitting illegal.

I've been itching for a round the joburg, friday morning 7am  >:D

Any takers?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Buddy on February 19, 2013, 01:41:54 pm
QED - make the R/H lane on the N1 a Bike only lane, and allow bikes to use the bus lane on the N2, and the My Citi bus lanes from Tableview. Southern Suburbs would be a problem.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 01:43:57 pm
this is what we need

(http://beta.taopo.org/sites/default/files/mmda-motor.lane_.1.png)

Like the 'self entitled' road users will stay out of those.
 :biggrin:

I don't know about the rest of the morning and the rest of the road, but at the time I ride to work (between 8:00 and 8:25) and on the stretch that I'm in I don't think the amount of bikes warrant something like this.


It would be lekker though.

 :ricky:
 
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: the_BOBNOB on February 19, 2013, 02:13:24 pm
i was thinking between the fast and middle lane

on the line separating the 2 lanes

if they have a different colored line 0.5m on either side

that will just show cages that this is where bikes are allowed

the ones the in fast lane would schootch a little to the right and the ones in the middle lane would schootch a little to the left

that would be perfect

i'm not advocating a dedicated lane the size of the picture
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: badseed on February 19, 2013, 02:21:03 pm
Cape Talk radio . Chatting with chairman of the Nomads club about lane splitting at the moment . Tune in
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 02:38:46 pm
i was thinking between the fast and middle lane

on the line separating the 2 lanes

if they have a different colored line 0.5m on either side

that will just show cages that this is where bikes are allowed

the ones the in fast lane would schootch a little to the right and the ones in the middle lane would schootch a little to the left

that would be perfect

i'm not advocating a dedicated lane the size of the picture

That'll have my vote.

 :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 02:41:57 pm
Btw - I also sent R an e-mail along the same lines as what was done before and I also got a personal reply not long after.

Not much to add, but he gave me the quote he gave to another biking news letter (including the CA regulations on the subject matter) along with a bit of personalised comment on the mail I sent.

I'm gaining respect for this dude as things go along.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: dpr on February 19, 2013, 02:45:10 pm
Hi All
Herewith email reply I received from Robin Carlisle and I think its refreshing and worth reading & applying any positive input to hin directly....
His reply to me reads thus :-
>>>>>>>>
Hi Dave,
Thanks for your contribution.
There has been an excellent debate which I summarise for you as an”old” biker  - this being a broad overview I gave to a biking newsletter this am:-
 
“ What I said at a media conference on Monday was – in point form:-
- my first concern is for  the safety of bikers, which I am sure you support.
-Secondly,  that bike ownership is growing at 5% pa - bike fatalities at 10% pa.
-This problem of ever growing biker fatalities is universal. They form the highest cohort of fatalities in Australia, and in some of the far eastern countries, biker deaths per 100000 of population exceeds our total deaths on the road.
 
-We note that a number of countries have banned lane splitting - Germany; USA (not California) Canada.
-So lets have a look at it - not introduce it - not legislate for it - lets discuss.
-In the main the feedback from the biker community has been mature, responsible and helpful.
What is emerging is the following:-
                -distracted drivers are a serious menace to bikers;
                -there is an element of totally irresponsible riding within biking
                -bikers need protection from rear-ending.
                -bikers are very vulnerable to unlawful vehicle driving (ie jumping red robots; stop streets, etc)
                -If we are to maintain lane splitting we should get the maximum biker buy in on a code of behaviour. (see the California suggestions below)
                -more advanced biker training is essential and maybe we could get one of the big distributors to help.
                -should we revert to a lights on policy?
 
 
It would be helpful if the correct message went out in your newsletter, and you are welcome to publish my email if any of your readers want to contact me.
 
Sourced from the California Motorcycle Safety Program, and promoted by Cycle World Magazine.
 
Lane splitting in a safe and prudent manner is not illegal.
 
The term lane splitting, sometimes known as lane sharing, filtering or white-lining, refers to the process of a motorcyclist riding between lanes of stopped or slower moving traffic or moving between lanes to the front of traffic stopped at a traffic light.
 
Motorcyclists who are competent enough to lane split, should follow these general guidelines if choosing to lane split:
 
1) Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic – danger increases at higher speed differentials.
 
- A speed differential of 15kph or less allows an alert, competent rider enough time to identify and react to most dangerous situations that can occur.
- The greater the speed differential, the less time a rider has to identify and react to a hazard.
 
2) It is not advisable to lane split when traffic flow is at 50kph or faster --- danger increases as overall speed increases.
 
- At just 30kph, in the 1 or 2 seconds it takes a rider to identify a hazard, that rider will travel approximately 10 to 20 meters before even starting to take evasive action. Actual reaction (braking or swerving) will take additional time and distance.
- Braking and stopping distance varies greatly based on a multitude of factors (rider, machine and environment).
- As speed increases, crash severity increases.
 
3) Typically, it is safer to split between the #1 and #2 lanes than between other lanes.
 
- Other road users are more accustomed to motorcycles splitting between the #1 and #2 (furthest left) lanes.
- Avoid splitting in lanes near freeway on-ramps and exits.
- Avoid splitting lanes when another motorcycle rider is splitting between other nearby lanes as cars may make additional room for one rider and accidentally reduce space for another.
 
4) Consider the total environment in which you are splitting, including the width of the lanes, size of surrounding vehicles, as well as roadway, weather, and lighting conditions.
 
- Some lanes are narrower than others, leaving little room to pass safely. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Some vehicles are wider than others -- it is not advisable to split near wide trucks. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Know the limitations of your motorcycle --- wide bars, fairing and bags require more space between vehicles. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Avoid splitting on unfamiliar roads to avoid surprises such as poor road surfaces.
- Seams in the pavement or concrete between lanes can be hazardous if they are wide or uneven.
- Poor visibility, due to darkness or weather conditions, makes it difficult for riders to see road hazards and makes it more difficult for drivers to see you.
- Help drivers see you by wearing brightly colored protective gear and using high beams during daylight.
 
5) Be alert and anticipate possible movements by other road users.
 
- Be very aware of what the cars around you are doing. If a space, or gap, opens up next to your lane, be prepared react accordingly.
- Always be prepared to take evasive action if a vehicle changes lanes.
- Account for inattentive or distracted drivers.
- Riders should not weave back and forth between lanes or ride on top of the line.
- Riders should avoid lingering in blind spots.
- Never ride while impaired by drugs, alcohol or fatigue.
- Constantly scan for changing conditions.
 
The Four R's or “Be-Attitudes” of Lane Splitting:
 
Be Reasonable, be Responsible, be Respectful, be aware of all Roadway and traffic conditions.
 
- Be Reasonable means not more than 10 MPH faster than traffic flow and not over 39 MPH.
- Be Responsible for your own safety and decisions.
§             Don't put yourself in dangerous positions.
§             If you can't fit, don't split.
- Be Respectful --- sharing the road goes both ways.
§             Don't rely on loud pipes to keep you safe, loud pipes often startle people and poison the attitude of car drivers toward motorcyclists.
§             Other vehicles are not required to make space for motorcycles to lane split.
- Be aware Roadways and traffic can be hazardous.
§             uneven pavement
§             wide trucks
§             distracted drivers
§             weather conditions
§             curves, etc.
Disclaimers:
These general guidelines are not guaranteed to keep you safe.
Lane splitting should not be performed by inexperienced riders. These guidelines assume a high level of riding competency and experience.
The recommendations contained here are only general guidelines and cannot cover all possible combinations of situations and variables.
Personal Safety: Every rider has ultimate responsibility for his or her own decision making and safety. Riders must be conscious of reducing crash risk at all times. California law requires all motorcycle riders and passengers wear a helmet that complies with the DOT FMVSS 218 standard.
Risk of getting a ticket: Motorcyclists who lane split are not relieved of the responsibility to obey all existing traffic laws. With respect to possible law enforcement action, keep in mind that it will be up to the discretion of the Law Enforcement Officer to determine if riding behavior while lane splitting is or was safe and prudent.
 
When is it NOT OK to split?
 
You should NOT lane split:
- If you can't fit.
 - At a toll booth.
 - If traffic is moving too fast or unpredictably.
 - If dangerous road conditions exist --- examples include water or grit on the road, slippery road markings, road construction, uneven pavement, metal grates, etc.
 - If you cannot clearly see a way out of the space you're going into (for example, if a van or SUV is blocking your view).
 - Between trucks, buses, RVs, and other wide vehicles.
 - Around or through curves.
 - If you are not fully alert and aware of your surroundings.
 - If you are unable to react to changing conditions instantaneously.
 - If you don't feel comfortable with the situation.
 
Messages for Other Vehicle Drivers
 
 1) Lane splitting by motorcycles is not illegal in California when done in a safe and prudent manner.
 2) Motorists should not take it upon themselves to discourage motorcyclists from lane splitting.
 3) Intentionally blocking or impeding a motorcyclist in a way that could cause harm to the rider is illegal (CVC 22400).
 4) Opening a vehicle door to impede a motorcycle is illegal (CVC 22517).
 5) Never drive while distracted.
 6) You can help keep motorcyclists and all road users safe by
§             Checking mirrors and blind spots, especially before changing lanes or turning
§             Signaling your intentions before changing lanes or merging with traffic
§             Allowing more following distance, three or four seconds, when behind a motorcycle so the motorcyclist has enough time to maneuver or stop in an emergency
 
 
 
 
Regards
R
 
Robin Carlisle
Minister of  Transport and Public Works
Western Cape Government
Telephone           +27 21 483 2430
Mobile                  +27 83 264 9018
Address                9 Dorp Street Cape Town
Website                www.westerncape.gov.za
Email                     robin.carlisle@westerncape.gov.za
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 19, 2013, 03:13:17 pm
another thing; motorists should be made aware that lane-splitting is infact legal. a lot of them still think we are breaking the law by lane-splitting and that contributes to the bad attitude towards bikers.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 03:27:23 pm
another thing; motorists should be made aware that lane-splitting is infact legal. a lot of them still think we are breaking the law by lane-splitting and that contributes to the bad attitude towards bikers.

I've had the same argument with lots of guys.

As what have been mentioned at least for now (seeing that this got so much attention) one can close that argument with the fact that they can't now threaten to make it illegal if it is in fact already illegal

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 19, 2013, 03:41:24 pm
This was his reply to the last mail I sent him.

I just sent him another email.

Robin

I understand you are a busy man but one last thing.... You say motorcycle deaths have increased but could that not be because the number of motorcycles on our roads have increased?

Also, have you ever been rear ended by another car while in traffic when out driving? I have, twice in the last two years while driving my car and while it was a fender bender it would have been much worse if I was on my motorcycle being forced to ride/drive like a car.

I know you are trying to save lives and this is still just a thought at this stage but banning lanesplitting is not the way to go. Better training of "new" riders entering the daily commute in and out of Cape Town and getting tougher on motorists that keep on using their cellphones and jumping red lights would be a better start in my book.

Thank you for your response.

Regards,
Grrrr....


Thanks Grrrr.
Noted.
Yes - a part of the increase in fatalities would be caused by increased ownership.

Regards
R
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: espresso on February 19, 2013, 04:35:15 pm
Sent a letter to Robin,
"I’m an old biker who doesn’t ride in the traffic a lot, but when I do, but I can assure you that I really appreciate it that I can approach a robot with stationary cars and lane split until I can get to the front.

This means that when the light turns green I am clear of the other cars and I can stay safe.

We are all aware of the fools who treat the white line as a bike lane and just scream along it as if there is no danger, but please don’t hold this against us who have had training and know how to ride in traffic.

And, by the way………………

 

 

Your traffic cops seem to think it’s O.K. to ride their bikes without much protective gear at all.  I can’t imagine ever riding without gloves , but I often see this. Short sleeved shirt, helmet, riding pants  and boots that look as if they would offer minimal protection.

What kind of an example is this to new bikers???"

 REPLY:

Thanks for this.
I am learning a lot about lane splitting, and I am beginning to favour the Californian approach.
If you see a traffic cop inadequately equipped or dress, please take the reg no and let me have it with time and place of the sighting.



Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Sam on February 19, 2013, 05:34:31 pm
I really wouldn't apply to much thought to this "endeavour". Along with the myriad of existing legislation, they will not be able to enforce this.

Effectively just forces one to operate outside the law. Undesirable, but nevertheless.........they turn law abiding citizens into "criminals".

Responsible adults know how to do things responsibly. .... If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on February 19, 2013, 05:42:38 pm
......I'm gaining respect for this dude as things go along.

I find myself agreeing to that statment as well. :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 05:48:44 pm
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 19, 2013, 06:28:51 pm
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




No panel, just ask me, I will tell you which ones are fine to break.

For instance speeding, break that mofo, everybody does it just don't be silly buggers and ride/drive 120 in a 60 zone. But stop streets? You better stop or I might just pop a vein....

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DaddyK on February 19, 2013, 06:35:44 pm
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 19, 2013, 06:42:03 pm
So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I will!

Leave it to me, by the time I am done with these okes cars, trucks, buses and bicycles, not mountain bikes mind you, will be illegal in the Western Cape and we will have all the roads to ourselves.

I will also dig up all the highways and turn then into gravel highways with the offramps of a more technical nature so you okes thinking of buying the new BMW 1200GS might need to reconsider.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on February 19, 2013, 09:18:51 pm
So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I will!

Leave it to me, by the time I am done with these okes cars, trucks, buses and bicycles, not mountain bikes mind you, will be illegal in the Western Cape and we will have all the roads to ourselves.

I will also dig up all the highways and turn then into gravel highways with the offramps of a more technical nature so you okes thinking of buying the new BMW 1200GS might need to reconsider
.

 :spitcoffee: :laughing4: :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer:

Excellent. :thumleft: ;D
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Pistonpete on February 19, 2013, 09:26:33 pm
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
In fact Robyn Carlyle is also welcome...
P
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on February 19, 2013, 09:27:41 pm
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
P

Sounds good :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Pistonpete on February 19, 2013, 09:28:50 pm
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
P

Sounds good :thumleft:
Daddy K ? You on boy!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Cracker on February 19, 2013, 09:43:47 pm
If you're lane-splitting, can the e-toll gantry still see you??

Was just wondering since they got those little patches of paint in the middle of the lanes - what for?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 19, 2013, 09:44:34 pm
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




I would have to agree with Sam on this one. History is full of unjust laws and regimes that needed disobedience.  Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa come to mind.

So the answer is there is no such thing as "I was only following orders" or "But it's the law"     You are responsible for your own actions and need to be able to look the guy in the mirror in the eyes. In other words,  you make it up as you go along.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 19, 2013, 10:52:24 pm
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




I would have to agree with Sam on this one. History is full of unjust laws and regimes that needed disobedience.  Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa come to mind.

So the answer is there is no such thing as "I was only following orders" or "But it's the law"     You are responsible for your own actions and need to be able to look the guy in the mirror in the eyes. In other words,  you make it up as you go along.

Segregation and discrimination against entire groups based on race or genocide of a race doesn't really fly in the same ballpark as a traffic law that irritates some people now, is it ?
The one is disobeying your government wanting to force you into something immoral - the other is disobeying a law that has got nothing to do with morals.

Sorry - but it is people with this type of mentality that make bikers in general look bad.

Lets swing this around.

For a taxi - the LAW that states that they should obey a left-only lane's arrow instead of going across straight isn't only an inconvenience for them, but it interferes with their livelihood, as they might lose out on income when they can't pick up people in the left only lane and then go straight.

Solid lines the same thing - it holds them back when they can overtake and can prevent the driver from being at his destination on time - might get him fired and leaves him and his family destitute.

You see where I'm going with this ?
 
The law is the law. We can debate liking it or not, but saying that it is our obligation to break it if it is stupid is actually downright dangerous.

And don't tell me that taxi's and solid lines can't be mentioned in the same breath as having to obey a (possibility of a) law that might want to force us in between cars. I'm not the one that used a  traffic law and genocide in the same sentence...
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Spy on February 20, 2013, 12:10:24 am
No one can deny that us bikers are partly to blame for this reaction from our MEC.
Have you seen how most bikers filter through the traffic!? They filter way too fast and dangerously!
As vulnerable users of the road, us bikers have to take responsibility for ourselves and start to ride slower and safer!

I've said it before (and got blasted for it) and here I say it again ... If you get knocked down while filtering through traffic, then you are also to blame!!
Here is why...
-You know cars switch lanes without looking in mirrors...
-You know cars switch lanes without checking there blind spot...
-You know cars don't indicate there intentions before moving...
-You know it's high risk...
So why the Fk do you continue to ride at speeds that you can't react to avoid the cars or stop in time!?!  :-\

So lets take our heads out our asses, brush the chip off our shoulder, put egos away, stop being in denial and start being more safe and responsible bikers and start riding by example!
We all guilty of this in some way, including myself!

This is a damb-ass idea from the MEC and will not work, but I'll be emailing him to ask why government is not educating people into the right way to ride/drive on our roads but rather allows someone of 18yrs with no experience to be able to climb on a 1000cc superbike with a learners licence for 2yrs? (that he'll never reach cause he's either dead or broken)
Road Safety Education is the only fix for safer roads and will take some time to rectify, but it starts with all of Us, Now! Right?  :thumleft:

Watch the videos and read the articles and learn how to do it correctly!  :deal:
http://youtu.be/JNGD9AAIfFU
http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Goose on February 20, 2013, 08:01:47 am
I agree 100% with you SPy ............. in fact I've seen you ride on the road.............. a TOTAL Hooligan!   :imaposer:

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: TheBear on February 20, 2013, 08:32:24 am
No one can deny that us bikers are partly to blame for this reaction from our MEC.
Have you seen how most bikers filter through the traffic!? They filter way too fast and dangerously!
As vulnerable users of the road, us bikers have to take responsibility for ourselves and start to ride slower and safer!

I've said it before (and got blasted for it) and here I say it again ... If you get knocked down while filtering through traffic, then you are also to blame!!
Here is why...
-You know cars switch lanes without looking in mirrors...
-You know cars switch lanes without checking there blind spot...
-You know cars don't indicate there intentions before moving...
-You know it's high risk...
So why the Fk do you continue to ride at speeds that you can't react to avoid the cars or stop in time!?!  :-\

So lets take our heads out our asses, brush the chip off our shoulder, put egos away, stop being in denial and start being more safe and responsible bikers and start riding by example!
We all guilty of this in some way, including myself!

This is a damb-ass idea from the MEC and will not work, but I'll be emailing him to ask why government is not educating people into the right way to ride/drive on our roads but rather allows someone of 18yrs with no experience to be able to climb on a 1000cc superbike with a learners licence for 2yrs? (that he'll never reach cause he's either dead or broken)
Road Safety Education is the only fix for safer roads and will take some time to rectify, but it starts with all of Us, Now! Right?  :thumleft:

Watch the videos and read the articles and learn how to do it correctly!  :deal:
http://youtu.be/JNGD9AAIfFU
http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html

Well said!  Apart from calling the MEC an ass.  See his response to an e-mail send to him.  Doesn't soun dthat dumb at all.
 

Hi ?????,

Thanks for your note.
I set out below a summary which I sent to one of the biking newsletters this am.
It gives a good picture of where we are at in this discussion on biker safety.
Thanks for your interest.

“ What I said at a media conference on Monday was – in point form:-
- my first concern is for the safety of bikers, which I am sure you support.
-Secondly, that bike ownership is growing at 5% pa - bike fatalities at 10% pa.
-This problem of ever growing biker fatalities is universal. They form the highest cohort of fatalities in Australia, and in some of the far eastern countries, biker deaths per 100000 of population exceeds our total deaths on the road.

-We note that a number of countries have banned lane splitting - Germany; USA (not California) Canada.
-So lets have a look at it - not introduce it - not legislate for it - lets discuss.
-In the main the feedback from the biker community has been mature, responsible and helpful.
What is emerging is the following:-
-distracted drivers are a serious menace to bikers;
-there is an element of totally irresponsible riding within biking
-bikers need protection from rear-ending.
-bikers are very vulnerable to unlawful vehicle driving (ie jumping red robots; stop streets, etc)
-If we are to maintain lane splitting we should get the maximum biker buy in on a code of behaviour. (see the California suggestions below)
-more advanced biker training is essential and maybe we could get one of the big distributors to help.
-should we revert to a lights on policy?
-should there be dedicated bike lanes and/or biker entry into the bus lanes?


It would be helpful if the correct message went out in your newsletter, and you are welcome to publish my email if any of your readers want to contact me.

Sourced from the California Motorcycle Safety Program, and promoted by Cycle World Magazine.
Lane splitting in a safe and prudent manner is not illegal.

The term lane splitting, sometimes known as lane sharing, filtering or white-lining, refers to the process of a motorcyclist riding between lanes of stopped or slower moving traffic or moving between lanes to the front of traffic stopped at a traffic light.

Motorcyclists who are competent enough to lane split, should follow these general guidelines if choosing to lane split:

1) Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic – danger increases at higher speed differentials.

- A speed differential of 15kph or less allows an alert, competent rider enough time to identify and react to most dangerous situations that can occur.
- The greater the speed differential, the less time a rider has to identify and react to a hazard.

2) It is not advisable to lane split when traffic flow is at 50kph or faster --- danger increases as overall speed increases.

- At just 30kph, in the 1 or 2 seconds it takes a rider to identify a hazard, that rider will travel approximately 10 to 20 meters before even starting to take evasive action. Actual reaction (braking or swerving) will take additional time and distance.
- Braking and stopping distance varies greatly based on a multitude of factors (rider, machine and environment).
- As speed increases, crash severity increases.

3) Typically, it is safer to split between the #1 and #2 lanes than between other lanes.

- Other road users are more accustomed to motorcycles splitting between the #1 and #2 (furthest left) lanes.
- Avoid splitting in lanes near freeway on-ramps and exits.
- Avoid splitting lanes when another motorcycle rider is splitting between other nearby lanes as cars may make additional room for one rider and accidentally reduce space for another.

4) Consider the total environment in which you are splitting, including the width of the lanes, size of surrounding vehicles, as well as roadway, weather, and lighting conditions.

- Some lanes are narrower than others, leaving little room to pass safely. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Some vehicles are wider than others -- it is not advisable to split near wide trucks. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Know the limitations of your motorcycle --- wide bars, fairing and bags require more space between vehicles. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Avoid splitting on unfamiliar roads to avoid surprises such as poor road surfaces.
- Seams in the pavement or concrete between lanes can be hazardous if they are wide or uneven.
- Poor visibility, due to darkness or weather conditions, makes it difficult for riders to see road hazards and makes it more difficult for drivers to see you.
- Help drivers see you by wearing brightly colored protective gear and using high beams during daylight.

5) Be alert and anticipate possible movements by other road users.

- Be very aware of what the cars around you are doing. If a space, or gap, opens up next to your lane, be prepared react accordingly.
- Always be prepared to take evasive action if a vehicle changes lanes.
- Account for inattentive or distracted drivers.
- Riders should not weave back and forth between lanes or ride on top of the line.
- Riders should avoid lingering in blind spots.
- Never ride while impaired by drugs, alcohol or fatigue.
- Constantly scan for changing conditions.

The Four R's or “Be-Attitudes” of Lane Splitting:

Be Reasonable, be Responsible, be Respectful, be aware of all Roadway and traffic conditions.

- Be Reasonable means not more than 10 MPH faster than traffic flow and not over 39 MPH.
- Be Responsible for your own safety and decisions.
§ Don't put yourself in dangerous positions.
§ If you can't fit, don't split.
- Be Respectful --- sharing the road goes both ways.
§ Don't rely on loud pipes to keep you safe, loud pipes often startle people and poison the attitude of car drivers toward motorcyclists.
§ Other vehicles are not required to make space for motorcycles to lane split.
- Be aware Roadways and traffic can be hazardous.
§ uneven pavement
§ wide trucks
§ distracted drivers
§ weather conditions
§ curves, etc.
Disclaimers:
These general guidelines are not guaranteed to keep you safe.
Lane splitting should not be performed by inexperienced riders. These guidelines assume a high level of riding competency and experience.
The recommendations contained here are only general guidelines and cannot cover all possible combinations of situations and variables.
Personal Safety: Every rider has ultimate responsibility for his or her own decision making and safety. Riders must be conscious of reducing crash risk at all times. California law requires all motorcycle riders and passengers wear a helmet that complies with the DOT FMVSS 218 standard.
Risk of getting a ticket: Motorcyclists who lane split are not relieved of the responsibility to obey all existing traffic laws. With respect to possible law enforcement action, keep in mind that it will be up to the discretion of the Law Enforcement Officer to determine if riding behavior while lane splitting is or was safe and prudent.

When is it NOT OK to split?

You should NOT lane split:
- If you can't fit.
- At a toll booth.
- If traffic is moving too fast or unpredictably.
- If dangerous road conditions exist --- examples include water or grit on the road, slippery road markings, road construction, uneven pavement, metal grates, etc.
- If you cannot clearly see a way out of the space you're going into (for example, if a van or SUV is blocking your view).
- Between trucks, buses, RVs, and other wide vehicles.
- Around or through curves.
- If you are not fully alert and aware of your surroundings.
- If you are unable to react to changing conditions instantaneously.
- If you don't feel comfortable with the situation.

Messages for Other Vehicle Drivers

1) Lane splitting by motorcycles is not illegal in California when done in a safe and prudent manner.
2) Motorists should not take it upon themselves to discourage motorcyclists from lane splitting.
3) Intentionally blocking or impeding a motorcyclist in a way that could cause harm to the rider is illegal (CVC 22400).
4) Opening a vehicle door to impede a motorcycle is illegal (CVC 22517).
5) Never drive while distracted.
6) You can help keep motorcyclists and all road users safe by
§ Checking mirrors and blind spots, especially before changing lanes or turning
§ Signaling your intentions before changing lanes or merging with traffic
§ Allowing more following distance, three or four seconds, when behind a motorcycle so the motorcyclist has enough time to maneuver or stop in an emergency




Regards
R
Robin Carlisle
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 20, 2013, 08:39:34 am
It seems he has now given up on answering individual emails.

This is the same as an email posted on previous pages.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Adventurer on February 20, 2013, 08:43:44 am
Somewhere it was mentioned that lane splitting speed should not exceed 10kmh more than what the cars are doing, this I agree with.....I have often lane split and had some biker on my ass, I move over, let him pass, FFS, he's gone in a flash, yes, he probably does it more often than I do, but hell, the speed some guys lane split at is crazy.....To enforce this would be impossible, just comes down to common sense I guess.....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 08:49:41 am
just comes down to common sense I guess.....

Common sense is glad nie so common nie...

 :(
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 08:50:29 am
It seems he has now given up on answering individual emails.

This is the same as an email posted on previous pages.

I got the same quoted part, but with a 'personalised' paragraph on top commenting on something I said.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Jacobsroodt on February 20, 2013, 09:02:27 am
The guidelines are thought provoking. I have read and agree with most, but a question: in my experience it is more safe to lane split at 110km/h than at 30km/h. Vehicles tend to be more careful when changing lanes at high speed and on highways than at peak hour traffic speeds. If one has to wait for every "it's my right to drive in the right hand lane on the highway at 80km/h" in Cape Town to eventually move over you will wait your life away.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jpcussen on February 20, 2013, 09:13:12 am
My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 20, 2013, 09:28:26 am
My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.


Have to agree.

This morning I threw my hands in the air when a scooter rider blew through the exact same @#$%ing stop street I almost caused a international indecent yesterday only to see him skip another one while overtaking a car and gooing like there is no tomorrow....

I hate people.... or I should stop taking my son to school.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Sam on February 20, 2013, 09:46:57 am
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




Pontificate much?

You forgot the "just wow" part. Like in "wow...just wow".......isn't that what sheeple say when they're about to release their righteous indignation on your ass?

This law will not be making my environment safer for me, and as my actions are not placing others at risk (unlike your taxi example), I will ignore it. No panel required - responsible people can think for themselves.

The proposal is pandering to the lowest common denominator - irresponsible people who are not intelligent enough to visualise the outcomes of their actions (both car drivers not indicating, as an example, and motorcyclists splitting at irrisponsible speeds). The irony is that these people are the least likely to follow a law, even if it is for their own good. There needs to be a Darwinistic outcome for these idiots in order to clean up the gene pool so to say.

So, bottom line is that if it can be adequately proved that this proposal would result in the desired outcome (fewer motorcyclists being culled), it would be a good idea. If, however, it's a "shoot from the hip" publicity stunt / potential porcine revenue generator (as it seems that it is)......you're free to do as you please, and follow the letter of the law "because they tell you to".

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 09:49:37 am

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......


Yes - you are 100% correct.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 20, 2013, 09:52:09 am

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......


Yes - you are 100% correct.



 :spitcoffee: :imaposer:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 20, 2013, 09:52:29 am
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




Pontificate much?

You forgot the "just wow" part. Like in "wow...just wow".......isn't that what sheeple say when they're about to release their righteous indignation on your ass?

This law will not be making my environment safer for me, and as my actions are not placing others at risk (unlike your taxi example), I will ignore it. No panel required - responsible people can think for themselves.

The proposal is pandering to the lowest common denominator - irresponsible people who are not intelligent enough to visualise the outcomes of their actions (both car drivers not indicating, as an example, and motorcyclists splitting at irrisponsible speeds). The irony is that these people are the least likely to follow a law, even if it is for their own good. There needs to be a Darwinistic outcome for these idiots in order to clean up the gene pool so to say.

So, bottom line is that if it can be adequately proved that this proposal would result in the desired outcome (fewer motorcyclists being culled), it would be a good idea. If, however, it's a "shoot from the hip" publicity stunt / potential porcine revenue generator (as it seems that it is)......you're free to do as you please, and follow the letter of the law "because they tell you to".

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......



(http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/Ged1Grrrr/Funny/too-many-big-words-i-dont-understand-thumb_zpsd4d5038e.jpg)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 20, 2013, 09:53:07 am
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




I would have to agree with Sam on this one. History is full of unjust laws and regimes that needed disobedience.  Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa come to mind.

So the answer is there is no such thing as "I was only following orders" or "But it's the law"     You are responsible for your own actions and need to be able to look the guy in the mirror in the eyes. In other words,  you make it up as you go along.

Segregation and discrimination against entire groups based on race or genocide of a race doesn't really fly in the same ballpark as a traffic law that irritates some people now, is it ?
The one is disobeying your government wanting to force you into something immoral - the other is disobeying a law that has got nothing to do with morals.

Sorry - but it is people with this type of mentality that make bikers in general look bad.

Lets swing this around.

For a taxi - the LAW that states that they should obey a left-only lane's arrow instead of going across straight isn't only an inconvenience for them, but it interferes with their livelihood, as they might lose out on income when they can't pick up people in the left only lane and then go straight.

Solid lines the same thing - it holds them back when they can overtake and can prevent the driver from being at his destination on time - might get him fired and leaves him and his family destitute.

You see where I'm going with this ?
 
The law is the law. We can debate liking it or not, but saying that it is our obligation to break it if it is stupid is actually downright dangerous.

And don't tell me that taxi's and solid lines can't be mentioned in the same breath as having to obey a (possibility of a) law that might want to force us in between cars. I'm not the one that used a  traffic law and genocide in the same sentence...

Look, I get what you're saying.  But it only takes 1 contrary example to disprove a theory, and the idea of blindly following all laws just because some politician decided to write something down is just plain wrong.  If more people thought for themselves we'll have a lot less problems in the world.

Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 09:55:49 am
Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

;D
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 20, 2013, 09:58:17 am
Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

Yip.

http://www.youtube.com/v/b0OX49tdZt4?version=3&hl=en_GB&rel=0"

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 20, 2013, 10:01:30 am
Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

;D

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Jacobsroodt on February 20, 2013, 10:04:27 am
My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting


Indeed. There is a reason why boda-boda's are so popular in Africa, rather than scooters. At least they have decent size wheels, are easy to ride and handles OK.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 20, 2013, 10:05:12 am
My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting


My initial reaction was to disagree strongly. (I do about 70% of my commuting on a scooter) But after some thought, you have a point. Not about banning scooters, that's just silly, but about the skills and attitude of some scooter riders.

A scooter is so light and easy to ride that you can probably handle one quite well if you can ride a bicycle.  The result is that a lot of riders don't have a clue what they are doing.  They don't know how to brake,corner or do evasive maneuvers.

Regarding power and braking distance. You'll be surprised.  Because it's so light it can stop on a dime, and the CVT transmission allows me to be at the next robot by the time you've dropped your clutch.


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Buddy on February 20, 2013, 10:05:37 am
"Western Cape Motorcycle Association" Who are these people? I haven't seen them around.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 10:05:54 am
Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

;D

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.



That was my initial reaction as well - up to where we started to find out that this guy is actually interested to get behind what is really going on and to engage with the people that will actually be on the receiving end of this.

One of his comments yesterday was that he was learning more about motorcycles and commuting than what he thought possible.

Respectful dialogue 1st - blazing guns later.

:)

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 10:08:46 am
"Western Cape Motorcycle Association" Who are these people? I haven't seen them around.

You wouldn't have if you weren't part of the motorcycle club scene - they are the governing body over the western cape motorcycle clubs.

So normal guys like us wouldn't know they exist unless you have been in contact with a club somewhere or at least been to a rally or two.

I also feel that although they should be representing, there should be representation as well for the normal 'day to day non club' motorcyclists as well.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: lonerider on February 20, 2013, 10:10:07 am
Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.

It works the other way too.

Today I decide to change lanes without indicating, tomorrow I talk on my phone, then later I'm forcing a bus off the road by overtaking up a hill, across a solid white line, against the traffic...

Society creates it's own problems due to lack of forethought and lack of forbearance.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 20, 2013, 10:12:19 am
Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

;D

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.



That was my initial reaction as well - up to where we started to find out that this guy is actually interested to get behind what is really going on and to engage with the people that will actually be on the receiving end of this.

One of his comments yesterday was that he was learning more about motorcycles and commuting than what he thought possible.

Respectful dialogue 1st - blazing guns later.

:)



Agreed. For a politician he's remarkably sensible and willing to engage.  My first thought was burnouts on his lawn, but the more of his emails I see, the more I realise he's willing to work with us. 

At least that's the perception he's projecting, with politicians it's best to be sceptical to the max.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 20, 2013, 10:15:16 am
Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.

It works the other way too.

Today I decide to change lanes without indicating, tomorrow I talk on my phone, then later I'm forcing a bus off the road by overtaking up a hill, across a solid white line, against the traffic...

Society creates it's own problems due to lack of forethought and lack of forbearance.

I think it works the other way too because of bullshit laws.  The more bullshit laws out there that people disobey because the law is unjust or moronic, the more people start disobeying legit laws, because they get used to being 'outlaws'.

Anyway. My last post that has nothing to do with lanesplitting. I've derailed the thread enough.
 
:P

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 10:17:29 am
My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting


My initial reaction was to disagree strongly. (I do about 70% of my commuting on a scooter) But after some thought, you have a point. Not about banning scooters, that's just silly, but about the skills and attitude of some scooter riders.

A scooter is so light and easy to ride that you can probably handle one quite well if you can ride a bicycle.  The result is that a lot of riders don't have a clue what they are doing.  They don't know how to brake,corner or do evasive maneuvers.

Regarding power and braking distance. You'll be surprised.  Because it's so light it can stop on a dime, and the CVT transmission allows me to be at the next robot by the time you've dropped your clutch.



You both are making a huge point.

One of the things that I have been wondering about a lot is the test to get your license.
When I did mine for a big bike (1993) I went riding with the 'spietkop' - he on his bike behind - in the traffic.
I had to keep an eye on him and his indicators and he obviously watched me the whole time.

Nowadays the final test is literally just testing your ability to pull away, stop and ride around a couple of obstacles on an isolated track.
In my mind that would be a good test to give someone before you give them a learner's license, not a final test for your license.

A motorcycle is the form of road transport that can get you hurt the most of all, but the only one where the test to see if you can doesn't even touch a public road...
I mean if you think about it - a guy go to someone like Billy De Beer for a week or three, take a TW 200 and pass the test without having been on the road properly.

Then he can go and buy himself a fireblade (or a scooter for that matter) and let himself loose on traffic on a bike that he doesn't know, with 0 experience.

So for me the 1st step about this would be to clamp down on illegal riders (rider and bike licenses and roadworthy) and then to adjust the process to get a license - not to be a pain in the ass or make it difficult, but to have a test that is a better representation of real life scenarios.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 20, 2013, 11:02:11 am
Eisbein: I agree with your points.  Licensing is seriously inadequate, although I'll be slow to support a more complicated system.

I reckon training of some sort will make the biggest difference.  Real life practical training on riding in traffic and staying alive.  I've read many books and watched many videos on the subject and took a course or 2. It definitely helps, never had a traffic related crash after 10 years of commuting in Gauteng,CTN and lately a small town.   (The less I say about falling off when off-road the better  :) )

Some options that I reckon might work:

-Maybe the minister can work with insurance companies to reduce premiums for trained riders.
-Some form of mandatory rider training in schools when students commute by bike.
-Make the traffic cops do something useful by making the bike cops present monthly seminars on riding in traffic. They must have some idea how.  A similar program is offered in the UK, where experienced bike riding trafficers take people on 1 on 1 through traffic and provide feedback.

Most of the above is probably too much to ask, and too much hassle, except for the insurance thing.



Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 11:13:26 am
although I'll be slow to support a more complicated system.

That to me is also an issue. None of us want more complicated. I think what we need is something that is more sensible without adding complication - how that's gonna work I have no idea...
:(


I've read many books and watched many videos on the subject and took a course or 2. It definitely helps, never had a traffic related crash after 10 years of commuting in Gauteng,CTN and lately a small town. 

You obviously have self preservation high up on your to do list
:imaposer:

Seriously though - totally in agreement.




-Some form of mandatory rider training in schools when students commute by bike.

I really like this - a while ago (on another forum) I wrote a 5 page doc on the do's and don't and the must and shouldn'ts (in my experience of course) for 16 year old's and their parents.
I also said in my e-mail to the MEC that I would volunteer for something like this (will obviously go through some training myself if need be to be able to do this)
Teenagers on 'poegies' that is safety aware and survive on two wheels 'till they are 18 WILL make for better car drivers as well.


-Make the traffic cops do something useful by making the bike cops present monthly seminars on riding in traffic. They must have some idea how.  A similar program is offered in the UK, where experienced bike riding trafficers take people on 1 on 1 through traffic and provide feedback.


I really like this as well


Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jpcussen on February 20, 2013, 12:15:59 pm
Eisbein: I agree with your points.  Licensing is seriously inadequate, although I'll be slow to support a more complicated system.

I reckon training of some sort will make the biggest difference.  Real life practical training on riding in traffic and staying alive.  I've read many books and watched many videos on the subject and took a course or 2. It definitely helps, never had a traffic related crash after 10 years of commuting in Gauteng,CTN and lately a small town.   (The less I say about falling off when off-road the better  :) )

Some options that I reckon might work:

-Maybe the minister can work with insurance companies to reduce premiums for trained riders.
-Some form of mandatory rider training in schools when students commute by bike.
-Make the traffic cops do something useful by making the bike cops present monthly seminars on riding in traffic. They must have some idea how.  A similar program is offered in the UK, where experienced bike riding trafficers take people on 1 on 1 through traffic and provide feedback.

Most of the above is probably too much to ask, and too much hassle, except for the insurance thing.






Very good points, especially re the insurance for qualified / trained riders. The 1 on 1 riding with a cop is something I saw on TV and they can give life saving feedback
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Andy Tastic on February 20, 2013, 12:18:42 pm
Awesome that so many Folk are getting involved.

A few years ago, I was approached by a guy from THINK BIKE and if memory serves me correct, isn't this something they might already have started, you know, the "education, awareness" thing...! I have seen them at some Toy Runs and other Rallies.

I am actively involved in Motorcycle & Scooter Rider Education, in my capacity as a K53 Instructor and yes, my gripe is with the actual "licencing" process. My main concentration is teaching Beginner Riders and the misunderstood notion that by passing a "written or theory" Learners Licence Test gives somebody the "right" to ride any Motorcycle or Scooter on our roads, without any prior Road riding & traffic Skills is to my logic, most irresponsible and quite plain dangerous.

Hey, you don't even need a "licence" to drive a Motorcycle or Scooter out of a Showroom from some Dealerships..! In fact, some Dealerships "proudly" advertise that you can buy a Motorcycle or Scooter from them without a "Licence", like its a positive selling point as to why you should rather buy from them as apposed to another Dealership who has the "cheek" to mention to you that its recommended that you look at getting yourself "legal" first.

My philosophy is:
"It is well known that proper Motorcycle and Scooter Rider Training that develops and promotes correct Riding and Road Traffic Safety Skills dramatically reduces the risks of accidents and makes your Motorcycle Riding Experience so much safer. Consider that any time, effort and money spent doing Motorcycle Rider Training to be an invaluable “Investment” in your Riding future."

I will be following this with much anticipation.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: alexTH3man on February 20, 2013, 12:37:16 pm
duplicate... of what AMZ said...

sorry for that
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 20, 2013, 12:42:59 pm
on a different, but related note....

they should also do something about pedestrians who walk between stationary traffic. they just dont look for oncoming bikes! i've knocked one down and have had a few close shaves while lane splitting.

and also beggars that stand at traffic lights in the middle of two lanes! you're lane splitting, traffic starts moving, they have nowhere to go! pisses me off!  :dousing:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Hanno @ Mad Macs on February 20, 2013, 12:47:57 pm
I get the distinct impression that some WD's on here did not bother to read the whole thread before posting.

The fact that I have seen the same email copied here four times seems to support my theory.

or what am i saying aleTH3man ??
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: monkeyboy on February 20, 2013, 02:20:52 pm
Here's his reply.

"Please note that I am asking for comment on this matter, not introducing it as a law.
Further, that I am trying to save lives of motorcyclists, which is the only category of road fatalities which is rising.
Also, that the bulk of our fatalities are perpetrated by drivers of sedan cars. Taxis used to contribute 11% of our fatalities. This is now down to 5% precisely because we have taken very firm action in this area. Over 3000 taxis have been impounded; resting periods and speed limits enforced.
As a result we have not had a major taxi accident since Nov 2011.
The speed limits you refer to are within the City of Cape Town, which, as I have informed you before, does not fall in my jurisdiction.
We take action to save lives on the road, and despite your misgivings, have been spectacularly successful.
Nowhere in the world has the death rate on the roads been reduced by 30% in 3 years."



Has RC checked the increasing number of bikes being sold and used these days? Obviously the accident rates are rising: the number of users is rising. While it is rising faster than the sales rate, probably many of the deaths are new riders, scooterists, and frustrated cagers who forget that they do not have airbags and bumpers on a Big Boy. On the plus side, he can probably take credit for the fact that there have been almost zero fatalities caused by steam trains since he took office.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 02:35:50 pm
Here's his reply.

"Please note that I am asking for comment on this matter, not introducing it as a law.
Further, that I am trying to save lives of motorcyclists, which is the only category of road fatalities which is rising.
Also, that the bulk of our fatalities are perpetrated by drivers of sedan cars. Taxis used to contribute 11% of our fatalities. This is now down to 5% precisely because we have taken very firm action in this area. Over 3000 taxis have been impounded; resting periods and speed limits enforced.
As a result we have not had a major taxi accident since Nov 2011.
The speed limits you refer to are within the City of Cape Town, which, as I have informed you before, does not fall in my jurisdiction.
We take action to save lives on the road, and despite your misgivings, have been spectacularly successful.
Nowhere in the world has the death rate on the roads been reduced by 30% in 3 years."



Has RC checked the increasing number of bikes being sold and used these days? Obviously the accident rates are rising: the number of users is rising. While it is rising faster than the sales rate, probably many of the deaths are new riders, scooterists, and frustrated cagers who forget that they do not have airbags and bumpers on a Big Boy. On the plus side, he can probably take credit for the fact that there have been almost zero fatalities caused by steam trains since he took office.

As a matter of fact - they did.
5% per year increase in the amount of bikes (licensed) on the road
10% per year increase in motorcycle related deaths


What would be cool to know though is the profiles of the stats - ie how many scooters, how much experience, age, type and size of bike etc.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 20, 2013, 02:37:10 pm
Here's his reply.

"Please note that I am asking for comment on this matter, not introducing it as a law.
Further, that I am trying to save lives of motorcyclists, which is the only category of road fatalities which is rising.
Also, that the bulk of our fatalities are perpetrated by drivers of sedan cars. Taxis used to contribute 11% of our fatalities. This is now down to 5% precisely because we have taken very firm action in this area. Over 3000 taxis have been impounded; resting periods and speed limits enforced.
As a result we have not had a major taxi accident since Nov 2011.
The speed limits you refer to are within the City of Cape Town, which, as I have informed you before, does not fall in my jurisdiction.
We take action to save lives on the road, and despite your misgivings, have been spectacularly successful.
Nowhere in the world has the death rate on the roads been reduced by 30% in 3 years."



Has RC checked the increasing number of bikes being sold and used these days? Obviously the accident rates are rising: the number of users is rising. While it is rising faster than the sales rate, probably many of the deaths are new riders, scooterists, and frustrated cagers who forget that they do not have airbags and bumpers on a Big Boy. On the plus side, he can probably take credit for the fact that there have been almost zero fatalities caused by steam trains since he took office.

5% per year increase in the amount of bikes (licensed) on the road
10% per year increase in motorcycle related deaths



So 5% increase is the noobs and 5% is the rest of us riding gods.

Moral of the story?

Erm..... I don't know.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DSNewbie on February 20, 2013, 02:57:19 pm

As a matter of fact - they did.
5% per year increase in the amount of bikes (licensed) on the road
10% per year increase in motorcycle related deaths


Which would only be totally relevant if all motorcycle related deaths involved only the bike and rider, and not other vehicles were involved.
Therefore, the increase in other vehicles on the roads and new riders/drivers on the road regardless of vehicle type will also have an impact.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 03:09:43 pm

As a matter of fact - they did.
5% per year increase in the amount of bikes (licensed) on the road
10% per year increase in motorcycle related deaths


Which would only be totally relevant if all motorcycle related deaths involved only the bike and rider, and not other vehicles were involved.
Therefore, the increase in other vehicles on the roads and new riders/drivers on the road regardless of vehicle type will also have an impact.

Yes it will - and that is what would have made it one-sided and a bit stupid if the whole shebang was only focussed on the bikers (like it looked like in the beginning).
It is looking though like they might be interested now in a more 'global' solution.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Buddy on February 20, 2013, 03:32:36 pm
The root problem - lack of policing traffic violations. It starts with not stopping at stop signs
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Dogmatix on February 20, 2013, 03:58:52 pm
Here's his reply.

"Please note that I am asking for comment on this matter, not introducing it as a law.
Further, that I am trying to save lives of motorcyclists, which is the only category of road fatalities which is rising.
Also, that the bulk of our fatalities are perpetrated by drivers of sedan cars. Taxis used to contribute 11% of our fatalities. This is now down to 5% precisely because we have taken very firm action in this area. Over 3000 taxis have been impounded; resting periods and speed limits enforced.
As a result we have not had a major taxi accident since Nov 2011.
The speed limits you refer to are within the City of Cape Town, which, as I have informed you before, does not fall in my jurisdiction.
We take action to save lives on the road, and despite your misgivings, have been spectacularly successful.
Nowhere in the world has the death rate on the roads been reduced by 30% in 3 years."



Has RC checked the increasing number of bikes being sold and used these days? Obviously the accident rates are rising: the number of users is rising. While it is rising faster than the sales rate, probably many of the deaths are new riders, scooterists, and frustrated cagers who forget that they do not have airbags and bumpers on a Big Boy. On the plus side, he can probably take credit for the fact that there have been almost zero fatalities caused by steam trains since he took office.

As a matter of fact - they did.
5% per year increase in the amount of bikes (licensed) on the road
10% per year increase in motorcycle related deaths


What would be cool to know though is the profiles of the stats - ie how many scooters, how much experience, age, type and size of bike etc.



Increase in sales doesn't mean much. A lot of bikes been used on weekends only or not being used regularly, starting to be used more than the car for commuting. Most commuters I see are not on new bikes. 

I reckon the amount of biking commuters has increased more than the 10% he mentions.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 20, 2013, 04:03:35 pm
New bikers are also a lot more accident prone.

So that 5% increase in bikers can easily account for the 10% increase in accidents, as that new 5% is probably more than double as likely to crash.  (The stats for crashes/experience are in the hurt report, don't have to energy to google it now)

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 20, 2013, 04:04:53 pm
I reckon the amount of biking commuters has increased more than the 10% he mentions.

I think so too - it would be insightful (and interesting) if we could get demographics of the involved.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: alexTH3man on February 20, 2013, 04:06:38 pm
I get the distinct impression that some WD's on here did not bother to read the whole thread before posting.

The fact that I have seen the same email copied here four times seems to support my theory.

or what am i saying aleTH3man ??

 :-[ sorry guys... haven't been following this thread as much as the other... my bad!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DaddyK on February 20, 2013, 06:02:48 pm
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

Hmmm..., not sure I would be willing to expose this gentleman to the hornet's nest. After all, his intentions are good, no use getting the messenger killed .....

On a serious note though, anyone interested in partaking in discussions on the subject, please PM me your details so I can forward it to him.

Eisbein, I sucked the "Western Cape Motorcycling Association" out of my thumb, your response to Buddy implies that there is such an association?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
P

Sounds good :thumleft:
Daddy K ? You on boy!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DaddyK on February 20, 2013, 06:08:43 pm
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
P

Sounds good :thumleft:
Daddy K ? You on boy!


Lets try again:

Hmmm..., not sure I would be willing to expose this gentleman to the hornet's nest. After all, his intentions are good, no use getting the messenger killed .....

On a serious note though, anyone interested in partaking in discussions on the subject, please PM me your details so I can forward it to him.

Eisbein, I sucked the "Western Cape Motorcycling Association" out of my thumb, your response to Buddy implies that there is such an association?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: badballie on February 20, 2013, 06:30:29 pm
OK haven't read the whole thread, just saw first and last page.

There us an association of all the clubs in the WC, they look into various issues relating to all bikers and may have started looking into thsi issue already or else will certainly be interested

Details here :

http://www.mawc.co.za/
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DaddyK on February 20, 2013, 07:50:10 pm
OK haven't read the whole thread, just saw first and last page.

There us an association of all the clubs in the WC, they look into various issues relating to all bikers and may have started looking into thsi issue already or else will certainly be interested

Details here :

http://www.mawc.co.za/

Thank you badballie!!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: badballie on February 20, 2013, 07:50:42 pm
 :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: AgentK on February 20, 2013, 09:51:19 pm
My respect to Mr Carlisle.

Even my pokey little email to him answered with a personal touch.
I believe the man is sincere.

I can only hope and pray that if he approaches this forum for ideas, advice or to test the water, the members will show him the same maturity he has shown those who contacted him to support his endeavors.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on February 20, 2013, 09:56:06 pm
My respect to Mr Carlisle.

Even my pokey little email to him answered with a personal touch.
I believe the man is sincere.

I can only hope and pray that if he approaches this forum for ideas, advice or to test the water, the members will show him the same maturity he has shown those who contacted him to support his endeavors.

+100 on that comment. It really is evident here on this thread that there truly are a lot of guys that are more than prepaired to give valuable input, advice & assistance in making this whole "Lane Splitting" issue.... a more safer & better thing to do. :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: monkeyboy on February 21, 2013, 01:06:30 pm
New bikers are also a lot more accident prone.

So that 5% increase in bikers can easily account for the 10% increase in accidents, as that new 5% is probably more than double as likely to crash.  (The stats for crashes/experience are in the hurt report, don't have to energy to google it now)


The other problem is that bikers are squishier than cars. What would scratch my bakkie may kill me, regardless of whether I'm between lanes or in one.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on February 21, 2013, 03:29:21 pm
It has probably been asked a million times.. but, if you are lane splitting

and someone walks between the cars without looking

you hit said person and fall off your bike damaging the bike and one or 2 cars

Who is responsible for the pedestrians injuries
Who is responsible for the bike rider injuries and bike damage
and who is responsible for the car damage

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 21, 2013, 03:33:55 pm
It has probably been asked a million times.. but, if you are lane splitting

and someone walks between the cars without looking

you hit said person and fall off your bike damaging the bike and one or 2 cars

Who is responsible for the pedestrians injuries
Who is responsible for the bike rider injuries and bike damage
and who is responsible for the car damage



I would reckon the pedestrian is responsible for everything.

If you were legally lane splitting and some idiot appears from nowhere, I don't see anyone else being at fault?

(not basing this on any legal knowledge.  Just opinion)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 21, 2013, 03:57:38 pm
It has probably been asked a million times.. but, if you are lane splitting

and someone walks between the cars without looking

you hit said person and fall off your bike damaging the bike and one or 2 cars

Who is responsible for the pedestrians injuries
Who is responsible for the bike rider injuries and bike damage
and who is responsible for the car damage



I would reckon the pedestrian is responsible for everything.

If you were legally lane splitting and some idiot appears from nowhere, I don't see anyone else being at fault?

(not basing this on any legal knowledge.  Just opinion)


I think the legality of it is mostly on the pedestrian's side.

Dunno about highways though - according to law pedestrians are not supposed to be on a highway...

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 21, 2013, 04:08:10 pm
It has probably been asked a million times.. but, if you are lane splitting

and someone walks between the cars without looking

you hit said person and fall off your bike damaging the bike and one or 2 cars

Who is responsible for the pedestrians injuries
Who is responsible for the bike rider injuries and bike damage
and who is responsible for the car damage



I would reckon the pedestrian is responsible for everything.

If you were legally lane splitting and some idiot appears from nowhere, I don't see anyone else being at fault?

(not basing this on any legal knowledge.  Just opinion)


I think the legality of it is mostly on the pedestrian's side.

Dunno about highways though - according to law pedestrians are not supposed to be on a highway...


if lane-splitting is not illegal and the pedestrian did not cross at a designated pedestrian crossing, how can it be the biker's fault?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 21, 2013, 04:17:09 pm
It has probably been asked a million times.. but, if you are lane splitting

and someone walks between the cars without looking

you hit said person and fall off your bike damaging the bike and one or 2 cars

Who is responsible for the pedestrians injuries
Who is responsible for the bike rider injuries and bike damage
and who is responsible for the car damage



That almost happened with me the other day at Lagoon beach. Cars are standing still when all of a sudden two mamas step out right in front of me.

I almost soiled my pants....
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 21, 2013, 04:18:47 pm
It has probably been asked a million times.. but, if you are lane splitting

and someone walks between the cars without looking

you hit said person and fall off your bike damaging the bike and one or 2 cars

Who is responsible for the pedestrians injuries
Who is responsible for the bike rider injuries and bike damage
and who is responsible for the car damage



That almost happened with me the other day at Lagoon beach. Cars are standing still when all of a sudden two mamas step out right in front of me.

I almost soiled my pants....
happened to me. knocked down a big mama and very nearly dropped my bike!  :eek7: they just dont look!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on February 21, 2013, 04:24:09 pm
Yeah I ask cos I saw it happen yesterday

A mama just walked out onto the road, I was lane splitting with a vuka scooter in front of me, I was'nt bothered though he was doing a stand up job.. then wham he smacked into her out of nowhere, he fell over taking out a side mirror of an AMG

Now I stopped to help the oke who was clearly in a lot of pain

The mama just stood there, she was ok but clearly upset.

The oke got out of the car and was also quite upset wondering who was gonna pay for his car

and the scooter oke who took the worst of it was the most upset cos he was hurt and his bike was damaged, i followed him home to make sure he rode ok, he lived in Edgemead.

In the end everyone went their own way and took care of their own accounts, but it just got me thinking. If everyone started talking lawyers who would legally be liable, it may just change how I think if lane splitting. Especially if it becomes illegal one day.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 21, 2013, 04:28:08 pm
if lane-splitting is not illegal and the pedestrian did not cross at a designated pedestrian crossing, how can it be the biker's fault?

If a pedestrian run at the front of a car (where you can't see as a driver) towards and into the road without looking and a car drives over the pedestrian, killing him or her then the driver is in for a bit of trouble.

Part of the K53 program and also by law as far as I can remember - I'm not saying it makes sense - I'm just saying how it was when I got my license.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Buddy on February 21, 2013, 04:31:00 pm
Stand up, look up.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: I&horse on February 21, 2013, 04:31:54 pm
Thats why you should ALWAYS stand in traffic, so you can see over the cages ;D

IMO splitting is the biker's responsibility, if you split between a car and a truck and you can't see if someone is behind the truck about to cross your path, then you slow down until you can.

Never split past a Taxi on the left hand side, don't split past a F250 at speed, because you can't see whats behind it etc...

If you can't see, slow down to a manageable speed, its simple really ::)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on February 21, 2013, 04:32:47 pm
Stand up, look up.
over trucks/busses?

i always slow down when coming to the front of a truck as thats were they tend to pop out unexpectedly!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 21, 2013, 04:34:57 pm
you can't see if someone is behind the truck about to cross your path, then you slow down until you can.

...

If you can't see, slow down to a manageable speed

This have saved my bacon more than what I can remember...

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on February 21, 2013, 04:40:00 pm
you can't see if someone is behind the truck about to cross your path, then you slow down until you can.

...

If you can't see, slow down to a manageable speed

This have saved my bacon more than what I can remember...



Yep. I've actually made contact with pedestrians more than once.  By made contact I mean just that, basically touched them, and them touching me with big eyes.  No one hurt, and no bikes dropped. If I was hauling ass, it would have been a different outcome.

Moved out of Cape Town a few years ago, but when I lived there I eventually stopped lane splitting at the robot just where you leave the city to get on the N1 near the waterfront.  ALWAYS people running over the road between stationary cars, without looking. Connected more than 1 big issue seller/pedestrian there.



Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Eisbein on February 21, 2013, 04:46:36 pm
I eventually stopped lane splitting at the robot just where you leave the city to get on the N1 near the waterfront.  

Yeah - that intersection is especially bad.



Btw - its hard to find that combination of fear/relief in someone's eyes are than when you are going slow enough when they jump out in front of you in that moment from when they notice you coming towards them and then realising that you are in fact going to stop in time.

:imaposer:

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Grrrr.... on February 21, 2013, 05:34:10 pm
Oh @#$, just remembered I almost took off a woman's car door not so long ago.

Moving towards the front of the que at the lights opposite the Paddocks shopping centre to take my right when her passenger opens the passenger door to get out in the middle of traffic.

I still don't know how I missed her but my nought was chowing through to the seat and when I looked back they were sitting in the car laughing.

I wasn't.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bacchus2 on February 21, 2013, 06:39:24 pm
I know what that feels like. Passanger opened the car door on the N1 near the Durban road offramp. Traffic was standing still because of an accident so she thought it would be easier to walk! Good thinking on her part, just a pity she didn't make an effort to look before opening the door. Missed her and the door by a ball hair!  :-[
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on February 21, 2013, 08:57:39 pm
Thats why you should ALWAYS stand in traffic, so you can see over the cages ;D

IMO splitting is the biker's responsibility, if you split between a car and a truck and you can't see if someone is behind the truck about to cross your path, then you slow down until you can.

Never split past a Taxi on the left hand side, don't split past a F250 at speed, because you can't see whats behind it etc...

If you can't see, slow down to a manageable speed, its simple really ::)

This is good common sence.. but it has nothing to do with the legality of who is right

Amazingly we have all had close shaves, but I have yet to find anyone who has actually taken someone out lane splitting and has ended up in legal kak for it and has survived to tell the tale.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on February 21, 2013, 09:40:54 pm
One of the most hectic spots for us guys "lane splitting"....is in the region of the Koeberg interchange!!!!!! 456..... I can vouch that I have come very DAM close to connecting some of the "Frikking Dum-Ass & Totally Brain Dead" TWITs....that insist on running across the N1, just after the interchange going into town.

The fact is that it is becoming darker in the mornings now & becoming ever more difficult to spot these Stupid Brain-DEAD Twits!!!! Very often what happens is that they misjudge the flow/speed of the traffic,.....they get stuck in between two of the lanes.....now we come around the bend (while lane splitting) & all of a sudden have nowhere to go,.... because of this "waste of precious oxygen Twit".... is standing in the middle of the road. Keeping in mind that there is a bridge they can safely walk across,.... about 20 meters away.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: buzzlightyear on February 21, 2013, 09:48:11 pm
Bring it under the attention of Traffic services  :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on February 21, 2013, 09:50:52 pm
Don't get me started on bridges.

Everyone ran across the road from summer greens to Montague gardens, a few of them ended up under buss wheels and there was a massive public outcry

Why the fuck they can't cross at the robot is beyond me.

So the DA raises....... wait for it......... 13 million rand to build a pedestrian bridge so that the stupid assholes don't have to walk the 500m to the robot.

Now they just walk under the bridge, the stupidity blows me away, I don't think I have ever seen anyone even use the bridge and they are still being taken out by buses.

Now they are onto the next one.. the N7 by Du noon, the disadvantaged steal all of the vibracrete slabs and now the kids or drunk okes walk onto the N7 and get taken out, now guess what they are demanding, you betcha, a footbridge.

Whatever.. like I said, don't get me started

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on February 21, 2013, 10:02:36 pm
Bring it under the attention of Traffic services  :thumleft:

This I have done.....more times than I can remember!!!! They police it for a while, get some company to fix the wire fence along side the road.....but without fail...only a few days later a new hole is made & the cycle repeats itself all over again & again & again.

Not to come across as being harsh..... but you know that feeling that you sometimes just wish someone can just drop "Stone-Cold DEAD"......well I openly & honestly wish that on a daily basis, that they would do just that before they make that fatal dash across the Highway.....so that my wife & I don't have to face the possibility of being forced to face Death in the Eyes, as we meet this Brain-Dead idiot standing in the middle of the Frikking Highway.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: ChinaPete on March 03, 2013, 03:05:34 pm
A link to a posting on the BMW club site re correspondence with Robin Carlisle about the lane splitting issue.

http://www.bmwmotorcycleclubcape.co.za/discussion-robin-carlisle-re-lane-splitting
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Derik on March 03, 2013, 04:56:28 pm
I would like to know, they want to stop lane splitting because too many guys are getting hurt/killed although not their own fault! What about passengers getting killed in busses and taxis, are they going to stop them from operating?
If they get this law passed, its just a matter of time before they do it up here in Gauteng, and noways I'm going to sit in traffic in a hot/thunderstorm or the like!

As we know our goverment, they'll just past it no matter what, but ja that's one law I would ignore
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: ChinaPete on March 03, 2013, 05:54:13 pm
I suggest you read the email in the attached link-
http://www.bmwmotorcycleclubcape.co.za/discussion-robin-carlisle-re-lane-splitting

Below is an extract from Robin Carlisle's response to the BMW Club Chairman:

“What I said at a media conference on Monday was – in point form:-

- my first concern is for  the safety of bikers, which I am sure you support.

-Secondly,  that bike ownership is growing at 5% pa - bike fatalities at 10% pa.

-This problem of ever growing biker fatalities is universal. They form the highest cohort of fatalities in Australia, and in some of the far eastern countries, biker deaths per 100000 of population exceeds our total deaths on the road.

-We note that a number of countries have banned lane splitting - Germany; USA (not California) Canada.

-So lets have a look at it - not introduce it - not legislate for it - lets discuss.

-In the main the feedback from the biker community has been mature, responsible and helpful.

What is emerging is the following:-

                -distracted drivers are a serious menace to bikers;

                -there is an element of totally irresponsible riding within biking

                -bikers need protection from rear-ending.

                -bikers are very vulnerable to unlawful vehicle driving (ie jumping red robots; stop streets, etc)

                -If we are to maintain lane splitting we should get the maximum biker buy in on a code of behaviour. (see the California suggestions below)

                -more advanced biker training is essential and maybe we could get one of the big distributors to help.

                -should we revert to a lights on policy?

                -Biker lanes? Biker entry into the buslanes?"
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Cracker on March 03, 2013, 08:53:44 pm
There you go, try a lights on policy - simple and free.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on March 03, 2013, 09:01:11 pm
IMHO...it should be made law for motorbike to have some form of "Permanent Orange/Amber" lighting emitting towards the front.

This has proven to make us far more visible.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Dusty Rusty on March 06, 2013, 08:41:14 am
per facebook epos gekry:

 
Jurie De Kock
8:27am Mar 6
Roger Deers:
Good morning all

Lane splitting

Just to inform you all that we had a very successful meeting with the MEC concerning lane splitting and the comment was that it will never be implied. What pleases me more is that we got more out of the meeting than we expected. We had the opportunity to address other concerns and the MEC was very supportive in our mission and has committed to give his support. He fully understands from where we are coming and there is very promising changes in the future Will keep you all informed

Bruce
President MAWC
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on March 06, 2013, 08:44:44 am
"never be implied" ???
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: RobC on March 06, 2013, 08:52:30 am
"never be implied" ???
Typo methinks, in any case that would be a national change to the current legislation as provinces do not have specific traffic laws of their own... imagine that confusion!  :eek7:
But they do try to interpret it in their own way, as do Metro's and municipalities...  The enforcement of certain offenses while ignoring other more dangerous ones is a prime example of this interpretative logic. >:D :biggrin:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on March 06, 2013, 07:55:14 pm
per facebook epos gekry:

 
Jurie De Kock
8:27am Mar 6
Roger Deers:
Good morning all

Lane splitting

Just to inform you all that we had a very successful meeting with the MEC concerning lane splitting and the comment was that it will never be implied. What pleases me more is that we got more out of the meeting than we expected. We had the opportunity to address other concerns and the MEC was very supportive in our mission and has committed to give his support. He fully understands from where we are coming and there is very promising changes in the future Will keep you all informed

Bruce
President MAWC


Very nice to see such a possitive outcome from that meeting. :thumleft: :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: buzzlightyear on April 05, 2013, 07:49:09 pm
I'm beginning to wonder whether the announcement by the MEC that he is considering banning lane splitting has anything to do with the amount of bike accidents lately. I know most car drivers think it is illegal, do you think it could have caused an attitude shift with some people causing them to think less about bikes?  ??? I certainly haven't experienced any animosity from car drivers since the announcement, but otherwise I don't know why so many accidents so suddenly?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Mr. Python on April 05, 2013, 09:24:44 pm
Probably related to the increase in the petrol price.
More people on bikes that aren't normally on them.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: whitedelight on April 06, 2013, 09:15:05 am
I was talking to the missus about the increase of accidents involving bikes. She says she can believe it,as she sees daily bikers that do not look comfortable on them,she says they look nervy.
Some folk out there have gone out and bought a bike with the idea of commuting and saving petrol. If you are new to biking the last place you should be is lane splitting in peak hour traffic.
Sorry but commuting on a bike requires a whole different skills set and mindset. A lot of this will only come with time,reading every situation as a potential threat and formulating escape routes every millisecond.
I stopped commuting end of last year due to my new job ,and then had to lane split a short while back. Took a while to get back into it,to switch the brain back into high alert and what if mode.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Pistonpete on April 06, 2013, 09:21:06 am
A road riding course by 'accredited' trainers is a consideration as well... :)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on April 06, 2013, 09:25:51 am
I was talking to the missus about the increase of accidents involving bikes. She says she can believe it,as she sees daily bikers that do not look comfortable on them,she says they look nervy.
Some folk out there have gone out and bought a bike with the idea of commuting and saving petrol. If you are new to biking the last place you should be is lane splitting in peak hour traffic.
Sorry but commuting on a bike requires a whole different skills set and mindset. A lot of this will only come with time,reading every situation as a potential threat and formulating escape routes every millisecond.
I stopped commuting end of last year due to my new job ,and then had to lane split a short while back. Took a while to get back into it,to switch the brain back into high alert and what if mode.

That could not have been said any better!! :thumleft: Very well put.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Strider_GS on April 06, 2013, 09:34:49 am
Waste of resources and breathable air.

Lane splitting is illegal in Germany. I rode bikes over there from the mid Eighties until 2000. No one gave a s4!+, everyone just did it. It's impossible to enforce a lane splitting ban. It was more of a legal / insurance issue if you had an accident while lane splitting they made it partially your fault.

If Robin Carlisle wants to save lifes why does he not enforce cagers wearing their seat belts and yes also in the rear seat and parents buckling up their kids. ???

Agree but rather get the cagers of their freakin cellphones. Cause that is why most people don't see the bikers. They are texting and making calls and generally just F%cking around and not driving
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Mr. Python on April 07, 2013, 09:05:17 pm
It would be interesting to see what sector of the biking world is most affected by bike related death.
I would imagine super bikes and scooters.
They seem the most cavalier.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Buddy on April 08, 2013, 11:36:04 am
The most cavalier I suspect are the BMW/KTM adventure bike fraternity, from observation on the N1 and N2.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Jannie46 on April 08, 2013, 01:53:08 pm
I always find it a bit confusing and upsetting when statistics are not detailed and to the point. For example

i.) how many deaths due to lane splitting, highway related and suburban road related?
ii.) type of bike involved?
iii.) age of the biker?
iv.) deaths due to stop street skipping by bikes?
v.) deaths due to cars skipping stop streets and robots, ETC., ETC, ETC.?

Once the statistics are specific and to the point, can these problems accurately be addressed.

My 2c.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: 2-Stroke on April 11, 2013, 11:49:59 am
It looks like Nevada might legalise lanesplitting:
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2013/04/bill-in-nevada-to-propose-lanesplitting/
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: monkeyboy on April 11, 2013, 12:22:39 pm
The only time I was legally in a lane, rather than between lanes this morning, was the only moment that someone almost took me out.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Mr. Python on April 11, 2013, 03:08:36 pm
At the moment, in SA, you you would always be legally in a lane.
Unless you mean you were using the emergency lane  >:D
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: meteldog on April 12, 2013, 08:40:14 am
I think they should seriously consider allowing bikes 250cc or less to use the bus lanes. I commute on a 125, once on a freeway where you can't get up to the speed the cages go at they literally push you right off the road.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: jagter on April 12, 2013, 08:59:17 am
I commute on a 125, once on a freeway

I can't remember of the top of my head now but is that legal? Isn't it above 125 for highways? Just check it out, especially if involved in an accident you might be held liable.

But I know what you mean. I've got a 150cc scooter. On the odd occasion that I've had it on a highway I've aged by 10 years every time. Trucks whooshing past is no fun.

Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: The Rock on April 12, 2013, 09:02:54 am
125 and bigger allowed on highways afaik.

but even on my 200 it can get scary - especially with taxis on the N2. i tried that once!  :eek7:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Mr. Python on April 12, 2013, 09:11:49 am
Yip the minimum is 125 but it shouldn't be.
What ever you take on the highway should at least be able to do the speed limit.

My wife had a 200 vuka scrambler in the begining, we did one little tour and I bought her a DR650.
You have to sit in the yellow line, if you travel in the lane the cages squeeze past.

If you are moving just faster than the traffic you only have to worry about the kak coming at you from the front.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: RobC on April 12, 2013, 09:18:06 am
Yip the minimum is 125 but it shouldn't be.
What ever you take on the highway should at least be able to do the speed limit.

My wife had a 200 vuka scrambler in the begining, we did one little tour and I bought her a DR650.
You have to sit in the yellow line, if you travel in the lane the cages squeeze past.

If you are moving just faster than the traffic you only have to worry about the kak coming at you from the front.
and all the debris is usually in that part of the road, you are liable to get punctures there.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: meteldog on April 12, 2013, 09:27:54 am
Yip the minimum is 125 but it shouldn't be.
What ever you take on the highway should at least be able to do the speed limit.

My wife had a 200 vuka scrambler in the begining, we did one little tour and I bought her a DR650.
You have to sit in the yellow line, if you travel in the lane the cages squeeze past.

If you are moving just faster than the traffic you only have to worry about the kak coming at you from the front.
True, I avoid freeways on my 125 and only ever really use the bit of freeway between Paarden Eiland and the city, which is a 80 zone, but the cages fly down there a lot faster than 80...
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: ®©errie on April 12, 2013, 12:13:48 pm
Wat is Lane Splitting??????????????
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on April 12, 2013, 07:45:43 pm
Wat is Lane Splitting??????????????

 :eek7: You serious?? :patch: :patch:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: buzzlightyear on April 12, 2013, 09:38:59 pm
Its on a need to know basis and you dont need to know :peepwall:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: ®©errie on April 12, 2013, 11:35:33 pm
Wat is Lane Splitting??????????????

 :eek7: You serious?? :patch: :patch:

No lanes here in sleepy Knysna  :imaposer:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Mzee on April 13, 2013, 06:18:58 am
Wat is Lane Splitting??????????????

 :eek7: You serious?? :patch: :patch:

Why do you assume that he knows?  Come on mate!
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on April 13, 2013, 09:19:53 am
Wat is Lane Splitting??????????????

 :eek7: You serious?? :patch: :patch:

Why do you assume that he knows?  Come on mate!

OK, OK......here are some examples :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Title: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Andyman on April 13, 2013, 09:40:41 am
Actually, after engaging with Robin Carlisle, and when you've walked a few kilos in his shoes, then one can understand where this comes from.
I have me Gopro mounted on my chin guard, and I'm sending him clips, one or two each week, or as I fit it in in a busy day.
It's weaving that is the real problem as well as riding much faster than the stream while filtering or in either emergency lane.

While I've sent a lot of footage of cars doing silly things like jumping lanes without a plan or drifting while on their mobiles, I have also sent footage of mainly super bikes that weave, wheelie, stop beyond the line at intersections not before the line and other stuff I'm dead happy he tightens and enforces legislation on.


Filtering is riding in a more or less very straight line between two lanes at speeds not too much faster than the general flow - they do not have a problem with this.
Lane splitting is a crude term of filtering but it's the same thing.

Weaving, where the problem really lies is exactly that leaning the Ike L & R as you filter but going right into each lane, simply 'cos it feels so cool, and the cars cannot predict your next move.

Motorcyclists, like any other road user do have a responsibility to ride well and with due consideration of other road users.
We share the common road, common good sense suggests we treat others as we expect to be treated.
I commute 52 kilos daily on a 1200GSA, N2- R300- N1.
For some 15 years now and never yet had an event.
I filter between lanes and often overtake bikes than can ride fast in clear lanes ,but are scared of narrow gaps.
So the bike that tore off down the road from the lights I catch up and pass when we reach real traffic.
I'm in full support of enforcing all road legislation- 'cos I still wanna be posting in ten yrs time when I'm 61.

It's weaving that is causing the shit, not the filtering.
Weaving and emergency lane riding.
Title: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Andyman on April 13, 2013, 09:48:03 am
Robin Carlisle has invited discussion and for sure, bikes in bus lanes is on the table.
We are fortunate in the Western Cape, where 98% of motorists realize a bike on the road is better than a car sharing their lane.
They see us coming and give us space
45 pppkm of riding since I bought this GSA last year is enough riding to know this.
I do roughly 44 loo in a low year and 55 000km in a high year (50% off tar) and loving every minute.

I ride my brothers 1150GS in the UK and in Europe and I ride in Jozi and Durban on other bikes.
western Cape is where I feel safest.

Maybe some dogs can also engage with Robin Carlisle, MEC for safety and sec here in the WC.
Several bike clubs are also in discussion, there has been a lot of interesting input.
Looking forward to seeing bikes included in bus lanes.

As for taxis, my experience is most of them are bike aware here and we share the road easily together.
Brights and orange headlight covers are a big help.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on April 13, 2013, 12:13:55 pm
Robin Carlisle has invited discussion and for sure, bikes in bus lanes is on the table.
We are fortunate in the Western Cape, where 98% of motorists realize a bike on the road is better than a car sharing their lane.
They see us coming and give us space
45 pppkm of riding since I bought this GSA last year is enough riding to know this.
I do roughly 44 loo in a low year and 55 000km in a high year (50% off tar) and loving every minute.

I ride my brothers 1150GS in the UK and in Europe and I ride in Jozi and Durban on other bikes.
western Cape is where I feel safest.

Maybe some dogs can also engage with Robin Carlisle, MEC for safety and sec here in the WC.
Several bike clubs are also in discussion, there has been a lot of interesting input.
Looking forward to seeing bikes included in bus lanes.

As for taxis, my experience is most of them are bike aware here and we share the road easily together.
Brights and orange headlight covers are a big help.

Can you ask mr Carlisle to legalize that please?
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DeadMeat on April 13, 2013, 06:56:20 pm
I ride/lane-split 92km everyday with orange/amber headlight on bright and 2x27w LED white spots.
Best investment ever.

Have been pulled over a few times to check drivers licence and bike licence, never once given kak about the headlight.

I have now upgraded my brake light to a flashing red LED and it has helped cages/taxis backoff when they too close. Once again cops havent given me any trouble (I even tried it out at traffic lights a few times to see if they would make a fuss. Nothing)

Loud bikes saves lives as they say, well my CBX250 Twister is about as loud as a mosquito on steroids. I opt for the visibility route
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: Bring It On on April 13, 2013, 07:05:29 pm
I ride/lane-split 92km everyday with orange/amber headlight on bright and 2x27w LED white spots.
Best investment ever.

Have been pulled over a few times to check drivers licence and bike licence, never once given kak about the headlight.

I have now upgraded my brake light to a flashing red LED and it has helped cages/taxis backoff when they too close. Once again cops havent given me any trouble (I even tried it out at traffic lights a few times to see if they would make a fuss. Nothing)

Loud bikes saves lives as they say, well my CBX250 Twister is about as loud as a mosquito on steroids. I opt for the visibility route

I have a suggestion w.r.t. getting your bike to sound more audible......simply cut the end can off & throw it away :pot: :lol8: :lol8: :lol8: ;) Sorry....just couldn't resist that one ;) :biggrin: :biggrin:

Seriously though.... I truly believe that it should be made LAW & enforced to make it compulsory to have some form of Amber/Orange lighting on the front of bikes ;) :thumleft: :thumleft:
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DeadMeat on April 13, 2013, 07:07:40 pm
I ride/lane-split 92km everyday with orange/amber headlight on bright and 2x27w LED white spots.
Best investment ever.

Have been pulled over a few times to check drivers licence and bike licence, never once given kak about the headlight.

I have now upgraded my brake light to a flashing red LED and it has helped cages/taxis backoff when they too close. Once again cops havent given me any trouble (I even tried it out at traffic lights a few times to see if they would make a fuss. Nothing)

Loud bikes saves lives as they say, well my CBX250 Twister is about as loud as a mosquito on steroids. I opt for the visibility route

I have a suggestion w.r.t. getting your bike to sound more audible......simply cut the end can off & throw it away :pot: :lol8: :lol8: :lol8: ;)

LOL - I live in a very very quiet complex, the neighbours will hate me.....
....then again i own this place, screw the neighbours :)
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: vigilant on April 13, 2013, 07:36:57 pm
Weaving and emergency lane riding.

Weaving has saved me more than once, taking a diagonal line between cars gives you a slightly bigger space between you and the car while traversing the blind spot area.

I don't pretend that cars see me, i try keep myself as far away from them as possible at all times.

You never hear bikes coming up from behind, even if they sound zorst. They come flying past me each morning, i seldom hear it in time to react in any way before they are level with me, and i'm listening out for it, without any music or distraction.
Title: Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
Post by: DeadMeat on April 13, 2013, 07:42:43 pm
Weaving and emergency lane riding.

Weaving has saved me more than once, taking a diagonal line between cars gives you a slightly bigger space between you and the car while traversing the blind spot area.

I don't pretend that cars see me, i try keep myself as far away from them as possible at all times.

You never hear bikes coming up from behind, even if they sound zorst. They come flying past me each morning, i seldom hear it in time to react in any way before they are level with me, and i'm listening out for it, without any music or distraction.

you have double glazing windows? LOL

I hear them a mile away when in a rented cage away from home