Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => General Bike Related Banter => To Buy or Not To Buy => Topic started by: barry13 on July 14, 2013, 05:01:01 pm

Title: BEWARE !!
Post by: barry13 on July 14, 2013, 05:01:01 pm
Was just busy organising finance for a nice 2007 BMW1200GSA from an honest guy who had owned the bike for the last 4 years when my finance company phoned to tell me that in 2009 the bike had an insurance claim of R135k on it !!  That would mean that just before he bought it (cash buyer) that bike had been virtually written off. Unfortunately the insurance history just notes the claim made with no details.  He was assured by the dealer he bought the bike from (dealer known to me) that the bike had not been in any accidents and in fact he had no problems in all the time he owned the bike.
Needless to say the finance was refused because of this and the seller can now only sell for cash and will have to notify any buyer of this history.
He is now taking it up with the dealer because obviously he will lose money now.
I hope he gets compensation and I also hope the dealer gets taken to task for knowingly selling a bike with this history.

Anyway buyer BEWARE !!
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Kameel on July 15, 2013, 12:10:38 pm
Hmmm...may one say which dealer?

Had a similar thing happen to me once. Was looking for a BMW 650 Twin for my ex and managed to find one for sale at a rental company in Cape Town CBD. Luckily I had a good relationship with Hamman Motorrad in Tyger Valley who helped me to trace the VIN number.

It was discovered that this BMW 650Twin was involved in an accident with damage of over R70 000 on which Hamman Motorrad quoted for. It was insured by BMW insurance and Hamman only repaired/replaced certain items as instructed by the owner. So basically it could have been written off but was repaired by Hamman Motorrad. Obviously the seller decided to remain quiet about this. For obvious reasons I didn't buy this bike.

Are the dealers obliged to disclose such info as this?
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: BOER! on July 15, 2013, 12:14:08 pm
Hmmm...may one say which dealer?

Had a similar thing happen to me once. Was looking for a BMW 650 Twin for my ex and managed to find one for sale at a rental company in Cape Town CBD. Luckily I had a good relationship with Hamman Motorrad in Tyger Valley who helped me to trace the VIN number.

It was discovered that this BMW 650Twin was involved in an accident with damage of over R70 000 on which Hamman Motorrad quoted for. It was insured by BMW insurance and Hamman only repaired/replaced certain items as instructed by the owner. So basically it could have been written off but was repaired by Hamman Motorrad. Obviously the seller decided to remain quiet about this. For obvious reasons I didn't buy this bike.

Are the dealers obliged to disclose such info as this?

I don't know if he is legally obliged to disclose the info, but morally towards another biker I feel it's not on to hide facts from a prospective buyer.

It's the whole buying cow and getting zebra scenario all over again.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Operator on July 15, 2013, 12:19:40 pm
An insurance claim of R 135 000 on a brandnew (then) GSA is nothing.  It is sooo easy for this to
happen during an insurance claim, as the cost of parts for such a bike is ridiculously expensive.
It does however not mean that there is something wrong with the bike now. :deal:
Most of the accident damage on these bikes usually is just cosmetic.

Heck man.............I know of an incident a few years back where a GS was written off because
it tipped over on its sidestand. ;D  ;D ;D
Surely it had no structural damage.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Snafu on July 15, 2013, 12:23:38 pm
If the repairs were done by a BMW dealer, it would not bother me. They would have replaced everything, and definitely no short cuts.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: chickenbadger on July 15, 2013, 12:24:34 pm
Now, I must confess, I have recently filed an insurance claim for a run in with a bakkie outside one of the forum vendors shops, literally, bakkie was reversing and didnt see me, knocked me on the top box and I fell.

The quote from BMW to fix everything up (all cosmetic) was R39k. Now, its all cosmetic, and I get a new akro exhaust and other parts that I have long wanted.... Obviously i will disclose this to anybody should I ever sell Mzungu (at the moment I am just falling more and more in love with it every passing weekend), but seriously, all cosmetic, and Im getting everything fixed, I bought the bike second hand, and I think now I will have an even better bike then the one i purchased...
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Operator on July 15, 2013, 12:30:09 pm
Is the bike currently on finance with BMW Finance?

If so, just use the same finance company. If they financed it before, they can finance it again, as their
risk would not be different.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: corriej on July 15, 2013, 12:38:59 pm
I was in an accident with a pedestrian a month ago.

I am insured with BMW. Anyway the damage was R58000 on the bike. This sounds a lot and it sounds like bike is badly damaged. However this is mostly cosmetic.

The plastic pins holding the instrument cluster broke off. The cluster works 100%. BMW is replacing the whole cluster at R10300.

Side panels * 2 = R4400 * 2 = R8800

Corrie
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: chickenbadger on July 15, 2013, 01:08:09 pm
I was in an accident with a pedestrian a month ago.

I am insured with BMW. Anyway the damage was R58000 on the bike. This sounds a lot and it sounds like bike is badly damaged. However this is mostly cosmetic.

The plastic pins holding the instrument cluster broke off. The cluster works 100%. BMW is replacing the whole cluster at R10300.

Side panels * 2 = R4400 * 2 = R8800

Corrie

Exactly.

I have to replace a side mirror for the 800, R850 for the mirror (through insurance). Did a little hunting around and it turns out the Aprillia Duano have the exact same mirrors as the 800 (same factory, alles) and they are R240.00 from Aprillia imported.

BMW loves insurance companies, and if you are not insured, you have to pay for that relationship.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: BlueBull2007 on July 15, 2013, 08:57:20 pm
Remind me never to start an insurance company ;D
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Tweets on July 15, 2013, 09:12:54 pm
NEVER INSURE WITH BMW. YOU GET BURNT BIG TIME
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Kuifie on July 15, 2013, 09:17:05 pm
Remind me never to start an insurance company ;D

And me to never buy a bmw ::)
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: fixit on July 15, 2013, 10:49:41 pm
An insurance claim of R 135 000 on a brandnew (then) GSA is nothing.  It is sooo easy for this to
happen during an insurance claim, as the cost of parts for such a bike is ridiculously expensive.
It does however not mean that there is something wrong with the bike now. :deal:
Most of the accident damage on these bikes usually is just cosmetic.

Heck man.............I know of an incident a few years back where a GS was written off because
it tipped over on its sidestand.
;D  ;D ;D
Surely it had no structural damage.

The problem with them was the subframe for the rear footpegs were welded onto the main frame. When the bike gets dropped it bends the frame in that area and very difficult to straighten, so they rather write them off.
It happened to a guy here in E.L. Dropped his bike crossing a slippery causeway. Hardly any damage to bike but it was written off.
He was very fortunate though. The insurance offered him another bike with front end smash and 50% of the damaged, which he accepted.
 Ended up making quite a bit out of the deal, by selling off all the spares.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: BlueBull2007 on July 16, 2013, 04:46:24 am
An insurance claim of R 135 000 on a brandnew (then) GSA is nothing.  It is sooo easy for this to
happen during an insurance claim, as the cost of parts for such a bike is ridiculously expensive.
It does however not mean that there is something wrong with the bike now. :deal:
Most of the accident damage on these bikes usually is just cosmetic.

Heck man.............I know of an incident a few years back where a GS was written off because
it tipped over on its sidestand.
;D  ;D ;D
Surely it had no structural damage.

The problem with them was the subframe for the rear footpegs were welded onto the main frame. When the bike gets dropped it bends the frame in that area and very difficult to straighten, so they rather write them off.
It happened to a guy here in E.L. Dropped his bike crossing a slippery causeway. Hardly any damage to bike but it was written off.
He was very fortunate though. The insurance offered him another bike with front end smash and 50% of the damaged, which he accepted.
 Ended up making quite a bit out of the deal, by selling off all the spares.

I can testify to that too, having lowsided my GS on some twisties. The rear footpeg was bent 45 degrees up with half the subframe. At the time there was no GS dealer in Peru, so I just rode it like that. One day when we were in the  playing bush mechanics  somewhere in the amazon on my wife's fuel pump, the guy in the local bike shop offered to straighten it for me: Three guys and I hung on the bike while a fourth bounced off a long steel bar through the sub frame did the trick. You should  see how far that frame can twist, its pretty impressive!

:paw:
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: barry13 on July 16, 2013, 06:29:53 am
Unfortunately, even though the damage may have been minimal, the fact remains that the bike can't be financed. That reduces the number of potential buyers drastically and also impacts on a cash buyer because if he ever wants to sell the same history will come up.

It seems to me there should be some way of checking what the claim was exactly for and whether it was just cosmetic. Also what was actually done to repair it.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Mzee on July 16, 2013, 06:42:39 am
If a bike is fixed, I don't see the problem provided the owner makes disclosure.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: corriej on July 16, 2013, 07:46:32 am
I went through my repair quote again this morning.

These two stickers:

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll100/corriej_photos/f800sticker_zpsd760a012.jpg)

R 908.28 for the two of them.

I am glad BMW Insurance pays for them.

Title: Re: Re: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: silvrav on July 16, 2013, 08:29:57 am
Unfortunately, even though the damage may have been minimal, the fact remains that the bike can't be financed. That reduces the number of potential buyers drastically and also impacts on a cash buyer because if he ever wants to sell the same history will come up.

It seems to me there should be some way of checking what the claim was exactly for and whether it was just cosmetic. Also what was actually done to repair it.

Why wouldnt the bike finance? I have financed over 10 vehicles with wesbank and their major 2 rules are that the vehicle mustnt be older then 10 years and not code3....so if the damage dont justify a code 3, and is fixed by bmw themselfs then financing shouldnt be a problem.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: jagter on July 16, 2013, 09:01:43 am
I also don't understand why the bank won't finance it.

I've seen a bike fixed by insurance. My dad's CBR.  Small fall at low speed, just some scratches on the fairing and a chafed grip.  Almost R40K of the insurance company's money later it was fixed. 

If something just looks a little remotely dodgy they replace the whole sub assembly. They basically replaced half the bike for some fairing scratches.  I wouldn't think twice about buying that bike.

Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Stofdonkie on July 16, 2013, 09:12:06 am
With an 1150 you only need 3rd party insurance.

Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: DouglasN on July 16, 2013, 11:04:02 am
A small hi-jack here if I may, on the question of insurance......

I have been chatting to a bike shop owner and he was telling me of the around 20 bikes that he has that people have just left there after being brought in for services, repairs etc, some have been there for close to 3 years.

he has tried to track the owners down etc but his seems to me like a potential insurance fraud issue by the owners, break a bike, take it in for a service, leave it there and then claim from insurance for a stolen bike, the bike is now sitting under a cover at the back of a shop.

Is this a possible scenario?  Would a police clearance check on them all be a good idea?

Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: jagter on July 16, 2013, 11:06:50 am
A small hi-jack here if I may, on the question of insurance......

I have been chatting to a bike shop owner and he was telling me of the around 20 bikes that he has that people have just left there after being brought in for services, repairs etc, some have been there for close to 3 years.

he has tried to track the owners down etc but his seems to me like a potential insurance fraud issue by the owners, break a bike, take it in for a service, leave it there and then claim from insurance for a stolen bike, the bike is now sitting under a cover at the back of a shop.

Is this a possible scenario?  Would a police clearance check on them all be a good idea?



Doesn't sound likely to me. It would be moronic. Almost guaranteed to be convicted of insurance fraud if you do that. The dealer should be able to show quite easily that you dropped the bike off. Signatures,security cameras etc.

If you really want to claim for stolen you have to disappear the bike properly. (my criminal mind recons the bottom of a dam or something)
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: barry13 on July 16, 2013, 05:56:26 pm
No real explanations just that they won't finance.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Réhann on July 16, 2013, 06:21:22 pm
Are the dealers obliged to disclose such info as this?

Oh hell yes! In terms of the new CPA.


An insurance claim of R 135 000 on a brandnew (then) GSA is nothing.  It is sooo easy for this to
happen during an insurance claim, as the cost of parts for such a bike is ridiculously expensive.
It does however not mean that there is something wrong with the bike now.

In July 2007 I managed to accumulate R58 000 wrth of damage on the Makgadigadi Pans in Botswana. The only real damage was a bent gear lever and its extension. The windscreen's one bracket broke, the frame bent a little, one spotlight broke off, one mirror moertoe, bent front rim.

But most of the stuff the assessor wanted on the claim could have been fixed with a bit of Q-Bond. Maar nee... BMW Insurance said "Nein!"

They even insisted on replacing handguards that had scratches from parking too close to the wall in my garage. It was fkn rediculous.  >:(

Screwed up my risk profile, but didn't up the premium of R630 at the time. But when I asked for a quote six months later on a replacement bike, they nailed me.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: BlueBull2007 on July 20, 2013, 05:30:40 am
I don't bother insuring any of my bikes. I figure the premiums are crazy high anyway because of all the claims (be them real or not). Kinda like loser's casino: Someone pays for the lights in those places right? And the free drinks and the waitresses etc etc.

Insurance to me is the same deal. Sure it is piece of mind at a price, but some actuarial has worked out what to pay. So I get insurance quotes all the time and adjust a deposit into a "bike" kitty instead. I've saved up a lot of money that way, which I use to fix damage to them. Actually I saved enough to buy more bikes as well, but at least I am getting my monies worth.

Call me crazy?
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: jagter on July 20, 2013, 10:10:56 am
I don't bother insuring any of my bikes. I figure the premiums are crazy high anyway because of all the claims (be them real or not). Kinda like loser's casino: Someone pays for the lights in those places right? And the free drinks and the waitresses etc etc.

Insurance to me is the same deal. Sure it is piece of mind at a price, but some actuarial has worked out what to pay. So I get insurance quotes all the time and adjust a deposit into a "bike" kitty instead. I've saved up a lot of money that way, which I use to fix damage to them. Actually I saved enough to buy more bikes as well, but at least I am getting my monies worth.

Call me crazy?

If you can afford to replace your vehicle at a moment's notice I reckon that is the way to go. You'll save on the long run. 

Would still advise to get 3rd party insurance.  You never know when you'll t-bone a new Ferrari.

Personally I can't afford to replace my car or bike so I have comprehensive insurance.  Almost a 'poverty' tax.
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: Bundu on July 20, 2013, 11:41:58 am
I don't bother insuring any of my bikes. I figure the premiums are crazy high anyway because of all the claims (be them real or not). Kinda like loser's casino: Someone pays for the lights in those places right? And the free drinks and the waitresses etc etc.

Insurance to me is the same deal. Sure it is piece of mind at a price, but some actuarial has worked out what to pay. So I get insurance quotes all the time and adjust a deposit into a "bike" kitty instead. I've saved up a lot of money that way, which I use to fix damage to them. Actually I saved enough to buy more bikes as well, but at least I am getting my monies worth.

Call me crazy?

nope, not crazy in my view - I have been doing the same for the past 10 years  :thumleft:
Title: Re: BEWARE !!
Post by: bronzy on July 20, 2013, 11:48:44 am
I don't bother insuring any of my bikes. I figure the premiums are crazy high anyway because of all the claims (be them real or not). Kinda like loser's casino: Someone pays for the lights in those places right? And the free drinks and the waitresses etc etc.

Insurance to me is the same deal. Sure it is piece of mind at a price, but some actuarial has worked out what to pay. So I get insurance quotes all the time and adjust a deposit into a "bike" kitty instead. I've saved up a lot of money that way, which I use to fix damage to them. Actually I saved enough to buy more bikes as well, but at least I am getting my monies worth.

Call me crazy?
if the bike is financed you have to insure the bike :thumleft: