Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => BMW 1200 LC => Topic started by: corriej on August 24, 2013, 08:29:04 pm

Title: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: corriej on August 24, 2013, 08:29:04 pm
Hi Guys,

I see in the Spanish BMW forums they have photos of the steering damper on the 2014 model R1200GS.

See below:

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll100/corriej_photos/R1200GS_d1_zps49c10ad5.jpg)

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll100/corriej_photos/R1200GS_d2_zpsf64af709.jpg)

(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll100/corriej_photos/R1200GS_d3_zps06ab83d8.jpg)
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: Gat Slag on August 24, 2013, 09:06:49 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: lecap on August 26, 2013, 08:20:12 am
The type of damper used is another clear indication that the new R1200GSLC is intended as a road bike :-\
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: HermanH on August 26, 2013, 09:07:32 am
The type of damper used is another clear indication that the new R1200GSLC is intended as a road bike :-\

How does it differ from the 1190 damper?  ???
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: BOER! on August 26, 2013, 09:08:20 am
The type of damper used is another clear indication that the new R1200GSLC is intended as a road bike :-\

NOt exactly the conclusion I would make, but it could confirm the headshake rumour....

 :peepwall:
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: BennNevis on August 26, 2013, 09:52:09 am
The type of damper used is another clear indication that the new R1200GSLC is intended as a road bike :-\

How does it differ from the 1190 damper?  ???

Yes please do tell us o knowledgeable one
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: lecap on August 27, 2013, 09:38:02 am
You get two basically different designs of steering dampers:
The one in the picture is build like a hydraulic cylinder. A piston moves inside an oil filled cylinder. The damping rate can be adjustable and you can build it with damping which increases with speed or stays more or less constant  with speed of the steering movement but most importantly the damping (once set) is constant in both directions and over the whole way of movement.
You will typically find a damper which increases damping with the square of the speed to limit  the effect on the bikes slow speed handling but to dampen kick back before it turns into a tank slap. Building it with very low slow speed damping and extreme high speed damping is complex. Variable damping depending on steering angle or direction of turn is near impossible

The other design is a rotational damper like the Scott. The desirable feature of very low slow speed damping and extreme high speed damping is just as complex as above but  variable damping depending on steering angle or direction of movement is simple. You can basically make a damper which is very soft around the centre line and gets hard at large steering angles and very fast movements.

The stick type dampers are usually fitted to road bikes to quieten down kick back when cornering over bridge joints and the likes.
The rotational dampers are used on DS & off road racing bikes to cope with extreme inputs originating from bumps hit at high speed.
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: HermanH on August 27, 2013, 11:18:57 am
You get two basically different designs of steering dampers:
The one in the picture is build like a hydraulic cylinder. A piston moves inside an oil filled cylinder. The damping rate can be adjustable and you can build it with damping which increases with speed or stays more or less constant  with speed of the steering movement but most importantly the damping (once set) is constant in both directions and over the whole way of movement.
You will typically find a damper which increases damping with the square of the speed to limit  the effect on the bikes slow speed handling but to dampen kick back before it turns into a tank slap. Building it with very low slow speed damping and extreme high speed damping is complex. Variable damping depending on steering angle or direction of turn is near impossible

The other design is a rotational damper like the Scott. The desirable feature of very low slow speed damping and extreme high speed damping is just as complex as above but  variable damping depending on steering angle or direction of movement is simple. You can basically make a damper which is very soft around the centre line and gets hard at large steering angles and very fast movements.

The stick type dampers are usually fitted to road bikes to quieten down kick back when cornering over bridge joints and the likes.
The rotational dampers are used on DS & off road racing bikes to cope with extreme inputs originating from bumps hit at high speed.

Thank you, gives me more insight!  :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:

I assume that the 1190 has the same "stick-type" damper?
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: Snafu on August 27, 2013, 11:58:24 am
The type of damper used is another clear indication that the new R1200GSLC is intended as a road bike :-\

How does it differ from the 1190 damper?  ???

? ?
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: Sithe on August 27, 2013, 06:58:06 pm
Hi Lecap

Are you familiar with the electronic steering damper? Honda debuted it on the Fireblade a few years back.

I would have thought BMW would go for something like that with their love of things electronic.
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: BennNevis on August 27, 2013, 07:29:19 pm
The type of damper used is another clear indication that the new R1200GSLC is intended as a road bike :-\

How does it differ from the 1190 damper?  ???

? ?

Jip
??!!
We are really quite intrested if the KTM has the same configuration wrt the steering damper
Not so much about the very technical explanation that glazed my eyes over
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: lecap on August 28, 2013, 10:13:13 am
I am not sure as for the OEM damper setup of the 1190 LC8 since the only 1190 I've seen close up had a Scott fitted which I believe is aftermarket? Tried to find a pic on the www but no luck :-\

Hi Lecap

Are you familiar with the electronic steering damper? Honda debuted it on the Fireblade a few years back.

I would have thought BMW would go for something like that with their love of things electronic.


A very nice concept which achieves similar results to the Scott by completely different means:
The Scott is designed as a bolt on solution and mechanically reacts to fast steering movement.
HESD uses input from the vehicle (speed) and adjusts the damper accordingly (no damping at slow speed, increasing once you go faster) to allow for easy low speed handling.

HESD has a theoretical advantage over the Scott since it reacts to the condition which might the tank slap to develop whilst the Scott valving reacts to the violent movement itself, the tank slap kind of has to start to make the damper work.
Disadvantage of HESD is its complexity adding failure modes and $$$$.

Maybe the 2015 R1200LC will have an electronic steering damper :thumleft: with a manual "lewensgevaarlik" override :lol8:

Problem is the bike will need two handlebars to allow for fitment of all the controls :evil6:
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: Callie GS on August 28, 2013, 08:28:47 pm
Thanks for your input Lecap very interesting :thumleft: :thumleft:
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: BennNevis on August 29, 2013, 01:35:46 pm
The type of damper used is another clear indication that the new R1200GSLC is intended as a road bike :-\

How does it differ from the 1190 damper?  ???

? ?

Jip
??!!
We are really quite intrested if the KTM has the same configuration wrt the steering damper
Not so much about the very technical explanation that glazed my eyes over

I refer to Le Cap's comment about the very obvious road bias steering damper thats seems to be a certainty for 2014 LC has already been fitted to both 1190 KTM bikes. Strange how two major players, especially KTM with its off road bias failed to recognise this short comings that Le Cap speak of. I just hope that the R&D guys from both Bmw and KTM read this forum because Fck Me they have been shown up by Le Cap
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: lecap on August 30, 2013, 08:21:17 am
The masses rule:
The vast majority of owners of these bikes will use them as intended: Touring more or less well build European & North American tar roads with maybe an occasional & careful excursion down a dirt road.
If you want to give the hard core bad ass Enduro freak go and modify your bike to suit your needs, don't expect the factory to build the bike according to your needs. You constitute only a tiny minority.

The accountant with the red pen also rules:
With the steering damper as an example: Grab a linear steering damper off the aftermarket shelf and get an engineer to draw up the attachments. The biggest cost factor in adding the steering damper to the BMW was the once off manufacture of the new moulds for the control arm and the triple clamp.
Additional cost on the KTM might have been even less since it was in the PRD from the start?
The steering damper itself is cheap and simple, some one went to the archives and looked it up in the dusty old file with the R90S drawings :evil6:


Other alternatives for both bikes would have been a Scott type rotational damper. Probably ruled out by patent issues - or simply too complex = expensive?

Or the Honda way? Here you need changes starting with wiring all the way to changes to the Motronic / CanBus to allow it to control the damper. Then you have to test & convert results into programming. This would be part of a major model upgrade or it will be in the PRD of a new model, not likely to be found in a year to year upgrade.

You can have a look at the Honda system here:
http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/hesd/index.html (http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/hesd/index.html)
A very detailed description of the internal workings of the HESD system with lots of information about the general "why & how" of steering dampers.
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: m0lt3n on August 30, 2013, 10:58:04 am
Why is there so many negative references to the road use of the bikes and the bikes being set up as such. Many many of the big bikes on this off road biased forum sees minimal gravel. Most people that can afford the bikes are already going on in years and is not a hooligan anymore.

So...why then setup a bike for hard core off road use and we have to pay extra for what we are not going to use on a bike that is in anyhow to heavy/expensive for such vs whats happening now where the individual that wants to go off road needs to look for aftermarket parts.

Lots of unnecessary negativity going around on stuff that is actually nice/nifty and to our advantage.
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: Copernicus on August 30, 2013, 01:53:49 pm
Why is there so many negative references to the road use of the bikes and the bikes being set up as such. Many many of the big bikes on this off road biased forum sees minimal gravel. Most people that can afford the bikes are already going on in years and is not a hooligan anymore.

So...why then setup a bike for hard core off road use and we have to pay extra for what we are not going to use on a bike that is in anyhow to heavy/expensive for such vs whats happening now where the individual that wants to go off road needs to look for aftermarket parts.

Lots of unnecessary negativity going around on stuff that is actually nice/nifty and to our advantage.

I don't think anybody minds that much that the bikes are more road biased.  But it is different when it is road biased and then marketed and sold as if it is the best, go anywhere, conquer everything, offroad adventure machine available. 

That is, at best unethical, if not perhaps even fraud.

My opinion.
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: BikerJan on August 30, 2013, 04:23:53 pm
Both the 1200 Bm and the 1190 KTM is in my opinion DUAL SPORT bikes, meaning, again my interpretation, that it is intended for both on and off road use. I have minimal experience, only done some 27 000 odd k's, most of it on dirt, with first a 800 GS and thereafter with a 1200. I think these bikes are perfect for my use.

If you want to ride the kind of routes like you get at Rhino Park, buy yourself an endouro plastic bike, and enjoy it.

The 1200 LC bike can definitely travel anywhere, in the right hands.

For my kind of use, the 1200 is performing 120 %.

I always stand amazed at people who blindly follow advertisements, and then blame the brand afterwards. If you thought the 1200 or the 1190 is an enduro bike, then you know very, very little about bikes! 
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: Vosperd on August 30, 2013, 04:54:01 pm
Thanks lecap, if the KTM and BMW R&D blokes didnt learn anything from the thread, I certainly did!  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: m0lt3n on August 30, 2013, 10:36:30 pm
Why dont we rather complain on the fact that it is still necessary to buy a flippen stupid pivot cover on a 170k bike?!
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: lecap on August 31, 2013, 09:56:31 am
Why is there so many negative references to the road use of the bikes and the bikes being set up as such...

I am rather surprised at seeing this as well.
It seems to be a South African thing BTW.

In Germany if you want a hard Enduro you buy a bike and modify it.
Here the people moan if they pop their KLR's shocks and bend their BMW's control arm :-\

If you believe the rubbish the glossy brochures, TV ads and sales guys tell you, well...
...you end up breaking your bike doing things it's not intended to do. Or you make your life unnecessarily more miserable.

BMW currently sells you a fastback sedan as Gran Tourismo :lol8:
Do you go and complain about that?
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: BlingKing on September 02, 2013, 12:47:57 pm
So okes like me can survive!
Title: Re: Photos: 2014 R1200GS Steering Damper
Post by: BennNevis on September 02, 2013, 01:32:09 pm
So okes like me can survive!

And Le Cap
With progressive springs for GS800😉