Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => About South Africa... => eTolls - The Resistance => Topic started by: Groenie on December 04, 2013, 09:48:08 am

Title: Know your enemy
Post by: Groenie on December 04, 2013, 09:48:08 am
As some clever dude said some time ago....

So what are the technical specs of these gantries, cameras, RFID stuff, etc?

I'm sure there had to be a tender doc, specifying all tech requirements. And then some information on what exactly was implemented.

Stuff like signal strength, angles of the cameras, field of view for each......

I think the more we know about this, the better we can fight it.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Karel Kat on December 04, 2013, 10:04:00 am
Interesting thread to watch. Electronic counter measures...
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bensien on December 04, 2013, 10:11:07 am
Does it take the photo from the front or the rear? Is there a visible flash? Does it always flash or just in poor light?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DRAZIL on December 04, 2013, 10:12:47 am
there is a weak point and that is ,the cameras have to be cleaned.
All one needs is a cloned Sanrail maintenance vehicle then find a maintenance worksheet or forge one and go do some midnight maintenance with hydrochloric acid, phosphorus, hammer and chisel...........

viva Le revolution
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Chili Dog on December 04, 2013, 10:16:47 am
Ive just come back from Sweden where they have also installed these gantries without the support of the masses. The normally passive swedes have taken to shooting the cameras with paintball's.

I laughed when my colleauge told me the story and remarked on us having access to live ammo  :pot:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Mr Zog on December 04, 2013, 10:40:50 am
As some clever dude said some time ago....

So what are the technical specs of these gantries, cameras, RFID stuff, etc?

I'm sure there had to be a tender doc, specifying all tech requirements. And then some information on what exactly was implemented.

Stuff like signal strength, angles of the cameras, field of view for each......

I think the more we know about this, the better we can fight it.

The camera's ARE high-tech. They take a pic of you from the front and from the rear. They use 3g imaging software that calculates the length of your vehicle, and automatically apprtions your toll fee.

BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

And now I am REALLY going to set the cat among the pigeons....

There are traffic cops sitting in the Sanral control room. They are informed about vehicles without number plates, and then said vehicle is tracked using the freeway CCTV system, and the cops on the highway are told to pull you off and nail you.

Yesterday I used the N1 from Stormvoel to Rivonia, and back, and I saw large groups of Tshwane Metro cops on bikes at the major intersections. I saw guys that had been pulled over without plates.

Beware. KNOW your enemy.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DRAZIL on December 04, 2013, 10:45:34 am
there is a weak point and that is ,the cameras have to be cleaned.
All one needs is a cloned Sanrail maintenance vehicle then find a maintenance worksheet or forge one and go do some midnight maintenance with hydrochloric acid, phosphorus, hammer and chisel...........

viva Le revolution

always wear gloves - they have your fingerprints from your license
disposable vehicle or stolenborrowed sanrail vehicle
beware CCTV cameras - wear safety goggles,respirators
be fit - in case you have to run  :lol8:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 04, 2013, 10:54:34 am
Quote
BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

This was quoted elsewhere and the consensus there was its not true.

Personally I doubt of they read your license disc - just too haphazard to rely on - people put them all over the place and with reflections etc -its just too much of a hassle to deal with.

We need to verify this stuff before circulating it and starting rumours IMO.  

I do know that their system works on two hi res video cameras that determine the vehicles dimensions.  The use OCR to read your number plate if you dont have an etag. Remember they only have less than a second to do all this as the car flashes past, they cant afford to allow the system to go into backlog, so even with high speed computers the real time processing will be kept to a minimum.

I estimated the downward view of the cameras as 30 degrees from own examination if photo's of the gantries.

I would imagine the angle of view of the cameras is fairly narrow, ie it looks at the lane beneath it, maybe a bit either side.





Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Dwerg on December 04, 2013, 10:58:32 am
I've been through 4 gantries with the bike and checking on the site it says I've only been through 3. I passed one between 2 big 4x4s. Don't know if that has something to do with it?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 04, 2013, 11:04:24 am
I've been through 4 gantries with the bike and checking on the site it says I've only been through 3. I passed one between 2 big 4x4s. Don't know if that has something to do with it?

IWould it then be possible for cars travelling slowly to be so close as to obscure their plates under the gantry? How close would you have to tailgate to obscure your plate?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 04, 2013, 11:08:24 am
I've been through 4 gantries with the bike and checking on the site it says I've only been through 3. I passed one between 2 big 4x4s. Don't know if that has something to do with it?

IWould it then be possible for cars travelling slowly to be so close as to obscure their plates under the gantry? How close would you have to tailgate to obscure your plate?

Downward angle of 30 degrees means the triangle base is twice its height.

So measure the distance from your eyes to the floor, and stand double that distance away from you number plate and look at it.

That's the same view the camera has.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bensien on December 04, 2013, 11:10:49 am
I am working on a few ideas. I suppose it would not be wise to discuss them here
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 04, 2013, 11:12:03 am
Has anyone checked to see if number plates like this are still legal?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DRAZIL on December 04, 2013, 11:14:20 am
these cameras operate on a 220 Volt system. All one has to do is find the distribution board that supplies the cameras and remove the neutral and replace it with another phase thus giving the cameras 380 volts which should fry something.

The municipality screws up like this often when working in suburbs.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Beebop on December 04, 2013, 11:15:36 am
Quote

I estimated the downward view of the cameras as 30 degrees from own examination if photo's of the gantries.

I would imagine the angle of view of the cameras is fairly narrow, ie it looks at the lane beneath it, maybe a bit either side.







Which means that a numberplate mounted further back under the tail piece would not be picked up ?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 04, 2013, 11:16:51 am

I would imagine the angle of view of the cameras is fairly narrow, ie it looks at the lane beneath it, maybe a bit either side.


+1  There are emergency lanes under some gantries and these also have their own camera.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 04, 2013, 11:17:09 am


Which means that a numberplate mounted further back under the tail piece would not be picked up ?


So if you are transporting an ironing board on your luggage rack, you are sorted!  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DRAZIL on December 04, 2013, 11:17:16 am
I am working on a few ideas. I suppose it would not be wise to discuss them here

Sanrail spys are everywhere and traitors who will sell out these ideas :patch:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Dwerg on December 04, 2013, 11:20:49 am
I've been through 4 gantries with the bike and checking on the site it says I've only been through 3. I passed one between 2 big 4x4s. Don't know if that has something to do with it?

IWould it then be possible for cars travelling slowly to be so close as to obscure their plates under the gantry? How close would you have to tailgate to obscure your plate?

Sorry should've been a bit more clear. Passed under one while lane splitting between 2 big 4x4s
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Groenie on December 04, 2013, 11:21:56 am
Has anyone checked to see if number plates like this are still legal?

It's called a Slicer, and for that reason it's illegal.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Chili Dog on December 04, 2013, 11:22:20 am
How do you "check on the site"?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 04, 2013, 11:25:42 am
Has anyone checked to see if number plates like this are still legal?

It's called a Slicer, and for that reason it's illegal.

Guess I'll have to go the ironing board route then.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Mr Zog on December 04, 2013, 11:26:10 am
Quote
BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

This was quoted elsewhere and the consensus there was its not true.

Personally I doubt of they read your license disc - just too haphazard to rely on - people put them all over the place and with reflections etc -its just too much of a hassle to deal with.

We need to verify this stuff before circulating it and starting rumours IMO.  

I do know that their system works on two hi res video cameras that determine the vehicles dimensions.  The use OCR to read your number plate if you dont have an etag. Remember they only have less than a second to do all this as the car flashes past, they cant afford to allow the system to go into backlog, so even with high speed computers the real time processing will be kept to a minimum.

I estimated the downward view of the cameras as 30 degrees from own examination if photo's of the gantries.

I would imagine the angle of view of the cameras is fairly narrow, ie it looks at the lane beneath it, maybe a bit either side.







I hear you Alan, but I got the info from a mate who I regard as a reliable "inside source". So should my number plate just happen to "fall off" I will also make sure that my license disc has a bit of mud, dirt, squished bug or whatever in a strategic place.  ;)

Would be such a shame if they managed to get my details from a license disc...  just making sure ALL bases are covered.  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 04, 2013, 11:26:24 am
IWould it then be possible for cars travelling slowly to be so close as to obscure their plates under the gantry? How close would you have to tailgate to obscure your plate?

Presume this would be way too close.  Take two cars. The height difference from the number plate on the one in front to the bonnet edge of the one behind is very little in most cases. You will probably have to get as close as 300mm to obscure a plate.  Riding in front of a truck might hide your plate but then you also need a truck in front of you to hide the front plate as the cameras look in both directions.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Whaleson on December 04, 2013, 11:27:12 am
So this will end the life of most cameras

http://www.wickedlasers.com/arctic (http://www.wickedlasers.com/arctic)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 04, 2013, 11:34:36 am
Quote
BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

This was quoted elsewhere and the consensus there was its not true.

Personally I doubt of they read your license disc - just too haphazard to rely on - people put them all over the place and with reflections etc -its just too much of a hassle to deal with.

We need to verify this stuff before circulating it and starting rumours IMO.  


I hear you Alan, but I got the info from a mate who I regard as a reliable "inside source".


Also call bullshit on the licence disc story.

My deduction.
Your licence disc is about 80mm?  To read the information on it you need a good resolution/pixels of about 800x800?
If the camera only covers 4mx4m of the lanes then the image that they store have to be 40,000 x 40,000 pixels to be able to read the licence disc.
What mb size would that image be? How much storage space would you require to store millions of those images?
Even if they just store a part of the image I doubt if the cameras would run video at such a resolution.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 04, 2013, 11:40:55 am
Quote
BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

This was quoted elsewhere and the consensus there was its not true.

Personally I doubt of they read your license disc - just too haphazard to rely on - people put them all over the place and with reflections etc -its just too much of a hassle to deal with.

We need to verify this stuff before circulating it and starting rumours IMO.  


I hear you Alan, but I got the info from a mate who I regard as a reliable "inside source".


Also call bullshit on the licence disc story.

My deduction.
Your licence disc is about 80mm?  To read the information on it you need a good resolution/pixels of about 800x800?
If the camera only covers 4mx4m of the lanes then the image that they store have to be 40,000 x 40,000 pixels to be able to read the licence disc.
What mb size would that image be? How much storage space would you require to store millions of those images?
Even if they just store a part of the image I doubt if the cameras would run video at such a resolution.
If these cameras are as good as claimed why do we need even have e-tags? ::)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Mr Zog on December 04, 2013, 11:45:21 am
Quote
BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

This was quoted elsewhere and the consensus there was its not true.

Personally I doubt of they read your license disc - just too haphazard to rely on - people put them all over the place and with reflections etc -its just too much of a hassle to deal with.

We need to verify this stuff before circulating it and starting rumours IMO.  


I hear you Alan, but I got the info from a mate who I regard as a reliable "inside source".


Also call bullshit on the licence disc story.

My deduction.
Your licence disc is about 80mm?  To read the information on it you need a good resolution/pixels of about 800x800?
If the camera only covers 4mx4m of the lanes then the image that they store have to be 40,000 x 40,000 pixels to be able to read the licence disc.
What mb size would that image be? How much storage space would you require to store millions of those images?
Even if they just store a part of the image I doubt if the cameras would run video at such a resolution.

Just passing on what I was told.... don't shoot the messenger.

Does this mean they don't have the resolution to see me flashing my willy at them from inside my cage?  :peepwall:  :ricky:

I suppose that all depends on the resolution of my willy  :imaposer:  :imaposer:  :imaposer:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Heimer on December 04, 2013, 11:47:00 am
It is strange that the Gautrain's fibre optics are sabotaged regulalry (e.g. by the taxi organisations) - but on this front, there is no 'knowledge' of now the systems are connected. Is it all wireless?

I am sure that info will surface over time.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 04, 2013, 11:53:55 am
Quote
BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

This was quoted elsewhere and the consensus there was its not true.

Personally I doubt of they read your license disc - just too haphazard to rely on - people put them all over the place and with reflections etc -its just too much of a hassle to deal with.

We need to verify this stuff before circulating it and starting rumours IMO.  


I hear you Alan, but I got the info from a mate who I regard as a reliable "inside source".


Also call bullshit on the licence disc story.

My deduction.
Your licence disc is about 80mm?  To read the information on it you need a good resolution/pixels of about 800x800?
If the camera only covers 4mx4m of the lanes then the image that they store have to be 40,000 x 40,000 pixels to be able to read the licence disc.
What mb size would that image be? How much storage space would you require to store millions of those images?
Even if they just store a part of the image I doubt if the cameras would run video at such a resolution.
If these cameras are as good as claimed why do we need even have e-tags? ::)

That is a good point, and it probably comes down to the neccessity to register and have automatic payments otherwise the system will become too cumbersome as OUTA has pointed out all along. 
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Groenie on December 04, 2013, 12:00:30 pm
Here's some sort of info - http://www.nra.co.za/content/GFIP_and_ORT.pdf (http://www.nra.co.za/content/GFIP_and_ORT.pdf)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Groenie on December 04, 2013, 12:01:32 pm
Wat sę die wet presies oor hoe jou nommerplaat display moet word?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Groenie on December 04, 2013, 12:04:12 pm
I mean, from what angles must it be visible? Can it be tilted "slightly" backwards?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 04, 2013, 12:07:07 pm
I mean, from what angles must it be visible? Can it be tilted "slightly" backwards?

Can you wheelie that 685?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 04, 2013, 12:12:02 pm

That is a good point, and it probably comes down to the neccessity to register and have automatic payments otherwise the system will become too cumbersome as OUTA has pointed out all along. 
Why I ask is because I am involved with vehicle access control on our campus and no known camera can read the disk at present reliably enough to collect data from it while in motion, the vehicle has to stop and be manually scanned. :deal:
We are installing our own "e-toll" system because of that. :biggrin:

I shudder to think of what those cameras cost that read the number plates on the gantries, we have had to compromise cost vs resolution. On our fast entry lane we will not have cameras on the number plate, only on the faces of drivers.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 04, 2013, 12:16:01 pm
I mean, from what angles must it be visible? Can it be tilted "slightly" backwards?

http://www.acts.co.za/national-road-traffic-act-1996/index.html?regs_35_display_of_licence_number.php (http://www.acts.co.za/national-road-traffic-act-1996/index.html?regs_35_display_of_licence_number.php)

7)   A number plate shall be affixed –
a)   in such a manner that it is not easily detachable;
b)   in an upright position or within 30 degrees of such position;
c)   in such a manner that each letter and figure thereon is clearly legible;
d)   in such a manner that the whole number plate is clearly visible;
e)   to the back of a motor cycle, motor tricycle, motor quadrucycle or trailer; and
f)   one to the back and one to the front of all other motor vehicles :
Provided that no person shall operate on a public road a motor vehicle first registered on or after 1 July 2011, unless the number plate fixed to such motor vehicle is affixed within 20 millimetres from the edges by means of 4 millimetres rivets or 4 millimetres one-way self tapping screws either directly onto the motor vehicle or onto an integral part thereof or onto an intermediate metal holding bracket which complies with the provisions of SANS 973 "Number Plate Carrier" approved by the Department of Transport, and which is attached to the motor vehicle in such a way that it cannot be removed while the number plate is affixed to it in the aforesaid manner.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Beebop on December 04, 2013, 12:22:12 pm
b)   in an upright position or within 30 degrees of such position
That could mean 30 degrees down ?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: KiLRoy on December 04, 2013, 12:32:46 pm
Quote
BEWARE: The cameras are very high-tech and high-resolution. They can read the details of your license disc in your windscreen. So if your numberplate were to "fall off" and you didn't notice, they would be able to get your details off your license disc and still bill you.

This was quoted elsewhere and the consensus there was its not true.

Personally I doubt of they read your license disc - just too haphazard to rely on - people put them all over the place and with reflections etc -its just too much of a hassle to deal with.

We need to verify this stuff before circulating it and starting rumours IMO.  


I hear you Alan, but I got the info from a mate who I regard as a reliable "inside source".


Also call bullshit on the licence disc story.

My deduction.
Your licence disc is about 80mm?  To read the information on it you need a good resolution/pixels of about 800x800?
If the camera only covers 4mx4m of the lanes then the image that they store have to be 40,000 x 40,000 pixels to be able to read the licence disc.
What mb size would that image be? How much storage space would you require to store millions of those images?
Even if they just store a part of the image I doubt if the cameras would run video at such a resolution.

Just passing on what I was told.... don't shoot the messenger.

Does this mean they don't have the resolution to see me flashing my willy at them from inside my cage?  :peepwall:  :ricky:

I suppose that all depends on the resolution of my willy  :imaposer:  :imaposer:  :imaposer:

there is no camera in the world able to view your willy at that distance without serious zoom functionality
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 04, 2013, 12:35:47 pm
b)   in an upright position or within 30 degrees of such position
That could mean 30 degrees down ?


I suppose so.

But to be completely unreadable (side on) to a camera you would need to tilt it by about 60 from degrees from vertical, but every little bit helps.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: GRIM on December 04, 2013, 12:36:56 pm
b)   in an upright position or within 30 degrees of such position
That could mean 30 degrees down ?


Yes...

Add a bit of creative overhang & you could get somewhere...
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: punisher on December 04, 2013, 12:54:47 pm
I am sure my fat arse makes my bike's back end sag at least 10 degrees. So my number plate could be facing 40 deg down ....... Ohhh fukkk. What's a number plate again ?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: KiLRoy on December 04, 2013, 01:44:48 pm
Mount the number plate in your crack - that way ....  shit no, dont wanna think about it :imaposer:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Veldbrand on December 04, 2013, 02:35:45 pm
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Dwerg on December 04, 2013, 02:39:14 pm
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)

Jy wil dit nie dalk copy en paste of 'n screen grab of iets maak vir ons ouens wat nie access het nie?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 04, 2013, 02:43:18 pm
The cap of R450pm, is that for eveyone or only tagged users?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Veldbrand on December 04, 2013, 02:44:08 pm
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)

Jy wil dit nie dalk copy en paste of 'n screen grab of iets maak vir ons ouens wat nie access het nie?
Sorrie, sy woorde:
"After careful consideration - I really thought this one threw. I don't like e toll - But i have to submit to what Jesus wants me to do. If it is about the money, my trust must be in Jesus for finances.
So i'm putting my trust in Jesus and i got my e toll"

I mean really!
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Dwerg on December 04, 2013, 02:45:56 pm
 :eek7: :eek7:

Janee geloof het verseker sy tol op daai man geneem
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 04, 2013, 03:15:46 pm
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)

Jy wil dit nie dalk copy en paste of 'n screen grab of iets maak vir ons ouens wat nie access het nie?
Sorrie, sy woorde:
"After careful consideration - I really thought this one threw. I don't like e toll - But i have to submit to what Jesus wants me to do. If it is about the money, my trust must be in Jesus for finances.
So i'm putting my trust in Jesus and i got my e toll"

I mean really!

haai shame! en hy't sover nog net gemanage om een helkkie af te trap....  ::)

Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 04, 2013, 03:24:27 pm
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)
Just like apartheid, tolling is immoral and therefore I disagree with dear brother Chris. :sip:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DRAZIL on December 04, 2013, 03:39:23 pm
me again
how do the images taken from the cameras sent to the bunker.
If it is wireless there could be a frequency jammer circuit diagram out on the web to corrupt the transmitting data much the the scanner on vehicles that screwed the manned speed traps.
answer anyone
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Beebop on December 04, 2013, 03:40:33 pm
me again
how do the images taken from the cameras sent to the bunker.
If it is wireless there could be a frequency jammer circuit diagram out on the web to corrupt the transmitting data much the the scanner on vehicles that screwed the manned speed traps.
answer anyone
Fibres were laid when they did the road upgrades.
If I'm not mistaken, Neotel won that contract.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 04, 2013, 03:42:30 pm
me again
how do the images taken from the cameras sent to the bunker.
If it is wireless there could be a frequency jammer circuit diagram out on the web to corrupt the transmitting data much the the scanner on vehicles that screwed the manned speed traps.
answer anyone
I believe they will have high speed fibre connecting it all, nothing beats that for speed and data throughput.
Now if only glass fibre was worth anything as scrap like copper is... ::)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DRAZIL on December 04, 2013, 03:52:31 pm
me again
how do the images taken from the cameras sent to the bunker.
If it is wireless there could be a frequency jammer circuit diagram out on the web to corrupt the transmitting data much the the scanner on vehicles that screwed the manned speed traps.
answer anyone
I believe they will have high speed fibre connecting it all, nothing beats that for speed and data throughput.
Now if only glass fibre was worth anything as scrap like copper is... ::)

2 things
the optic cable has to join somewhere or run through an unprotected area ......cut/destroy a 10m piece

optic cables have or used to have Kevlar strings to strengthen it which was stolen from telkom lines in the EC and exported to china then returned as bullet proof vests,bike jackets etc. start a rumor of its high value.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: mox on December 04, 2013, 04:59:27 pm
me again
how do the images taken from the cameras sent to the bunker.
If it is wireless there could be a frequency jammer circuit diagram out on the web to corrupt the transmitting data much the the scanner on vehicles that screwed the manned speed traps.
answer anyone
I believe they will have high speed fibre connecting it all, nothing beats that for speed and data throughput.
Now if only glass fibre was worth anything as scrap like copper is... ::)
nevermind that, where are all the copper and cable theives in this country? Without power they cant run F all
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: KiLRoy on December 04, 2013, 06:23:52 pm
Jesus homself het mos die tollenaars gebliksem.....het hy nie? Of was die dobbelaars?

Haat teenoor tollenaars kom al van toeka se tyd.

Hate against tollenaaiers come from way before trucks time.... :imaposer:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: punisher on December 04, 2013, 06:43:39 pm
Mount the number plate in your crack - that way ....  shit no, dont wanna think about it :imaposer:

  you could be onto summink there .............  hang on a wee minute  ...............
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: badballie on December 04, 2013, 06:59:51 pm
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)

Jy wil dit nie dalk copy en paste of 'n screen grab of iets maak vir ons ouens wat nie access het nie?
Sorrie, sy woorde:
"After careful consideration - I really thought this one threw. I don't like e toll - But i have to submit to what Jesus wants me to do. If it is about the money, my trust must be in Jesus for finances.
So i'm putting my trust in Jesus and i got my e toll"

I mean really!

En die reply op sy post :

"If you can't beat them, join them haha but I agree, the battle belongs to the Lord!!! Aren't we blessed!!!"

Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Martyn on December 04, 2013, 07:26:13 pm
don't know if this has been posted?
http://www.mediafire.com/view/sj7gtz09w2kjj59/What+Sanral+Don%27t+Want+You+To+Know+LQ.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/view/sj7gtz09w2kjj59/What+Sanral+Don%27t+Want+You+To+Know+LQ.pdf)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: bud500 on December 04, 2013, 08:56:10 pm
The cap of R450pm, is that for eveyone or only tagged users?

I looked into this yesterday and my understanding is the cap only applies to tagged users.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 01:28:28 am
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)

Jy wil dit nie dalk copy en paste of 'n screen grab of iets maak vir ons ouens wat nie access het nie?
Sorrie, sy woorde:
"After careful consideration - I really thought this one threw. I don't like e toll - But i have to submit to what Jesus wants me to do. If it is about the money, my trust must be in Jesus for finances.
So i'm putting my trust in Jesus and i got my e toll"

I mean really!

haai shame! en hy't sover nog net gemanage om een helkkie af te trap....  ::)



What, can you check on the usage of other road users?
What do you need? Licence plate number?

Or did he post this image himself?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: White Rhino on December 05, 2013, 06:27:54 am
The essence of OCR is the tollerences and patterns used for recognition. These vary from engine to engine. The software has to firstly "find" your number plate in the image. So placing your numberl plate off centre will challenge the engine under load. It also has to differentiate any other letters on the vehicle from the "Number Plate" characters. There is a limit on the tollerence of angles horizontally - some software use deskew techniques to do so but are also places extra strain on the engine and costs machine time - very taxing under high volume and load conditions. Spacing between characters are also important. For eample if your's was "G  P" versus "GP" signifies two "words" versus one. The clarity of the letters - i.e. faded letters also cause strain and may fail pattern matching.

So it would be useful to find out what OCR engines are being used and see what the tolerences are and maybe there are some loopholes. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: J-dog on December 05, 2013, 07:08:20 am
The essence of OCR is the tollerences and patterns used for recognition. These vary from engine to engine. The software has to firstly "find" your number plate in the image. So placing your numberl plate off centre will challenge the engine under load. It also has to differentiate any other letters on the vehicle from the "Number Plate" characters. There is a limit on the tollerence of angles horizontally - some software use deskew techniques to do so but are also places extra strain on the engine and costs machine time - very taxing under high volume and load conditions. Spacing between characters are also important. For eample if your's was "G  P" versus "GP" signifies two "words" versus one. The clarity of the letters - i.e. faded letters also cause strain and may fail pattern matching.

So it would be useful to find out what OCR engines are being used and see what the tolerences are and maybe there are some loopholes. :biggrin:

 :sip:

what about placing a few stickers on your card close to the number plate, using the same font and colour?

"123 fok etol gp"or something?

would that confuse the OCR engine?  :laughing4:

Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Veldbrand on December 05, 2013, 08:47:58 am
The essence of OCR is the tollerences and patterns used for recognition. These vary from engine to engine. The software has to firstly "find" your number plate in the image. So placing your numberl plate off centre will challenge the engine under load. It also has to differentiate any other letters on the vehicle from the "Number Plate" characters. There is a limit on the tollerence of angles horizontally - some software use deskew techniques to do so but are also places extra strain on the engine and costs machine time - very taxing under high volume and load conditions. Spacing between characters are also important. For eample if your's was "G  P" versus "GP" signifies two "words" versus one. The clarity of the letters - i.e. faded letters also cause strain and may fail pattern matching.

So it would be useful to find out what OCR engines are being used and see what the tolerences are and maybe there are some loopholes. :biggrin:
In that case register a company called STP (Special Toll Plates), have decalls printed for your vehicle including 300 generic GP number plates in the standard font, colour and size and stick them on all over the car for "marketing" and start a taxi service up and down the M1/N1.
Phaak'm!
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 05, 2013, 09:56:13 am
Fok my sideways met 'n etag, van enemies gepraat, check die ou se verskoning!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365529640250709&set=a.136525583151117.28130.100003810289475&type=3&theater)

Jy wil dit nie dalk copy en paste of 'n screen grab of iets maak vir ons ouens wat nie access het nie?
Sorrie, sy woorde:
"After careful consideration - I really thought this one threw. I don't like e toll - But i have to submit to what Jesus wants me to do. If it is about the money, my trust must be in Jesus for finances.
So i'm putting my trust in Jesus and i got my e toll"

I mean really!

haai shame! en hy't sover nog net gemanage om een helkkie af te trap....  ::)



What, can you check on the usage of other road users?
What do you need? Licence plate number?

Or did he post this image himself?
PAPI states that one should not be able to obtain another persons information from any electronic database... on the E-Toll website i can do so when typing in any registration number... ego the website/system is not PAPI complaint. Who is going to lay a charge? >:D
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 09:59:03 am
PAPI states that one should not be able to obtain another persons information from any electronic database... on the E-Toll website i can do so when typing in any registration number... ego the website/system is not PAPI complaint. Who is going to lay a charge? >:D

Papi wag vir jou....   :biggrin:

Which website is that? Link?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 05, 2013, 10:01:15 am
PAPI states that one should not be able to obtain another persons information from any electronic database... on the E-Toll website i can do so when typing in any registration number... ego the website/system is not PAPI complaint. Who is going to lay a charge? >:D

Papi wag vir jou....   :biggrin:

Which website is that? Link?
Damn... I meant POPI legislation! :imaposer:
http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/bills/B9-2009_ProtectionofPersonalInformation.pdf (http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/bills/B9-2009_ProtectionofPersonalInformation.pdf)

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-09-03-crib-notes-popi-is-here-for-you (http://mg.co.za/article/2013-09-03-crib-notes-popi-is-here-for-you)

Our website guys had to ensure that no one can obtain student info by just typing in a student number, you have to use ID number and passwords now. But here is a semi government website that is clearly not compliant.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 05, 2013, 10:25:34 am
PAPI states that one should not be able to obtain another persons information from any electronic database... on the E-Toll website i can do so when typing in any registration number... ego the website/system is not PAPI complaint. Who is going to lay a charge? >:D

Papi wag vir jou....   :biggrin:

Which website is that? Link?
Damn... I meant POPI legislation! :imaposer:
http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/bills/B9-2009_ProtectionofPersonalInformation.pdf (http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/bills/B9-2009_ProtectionofPersonalInformation.pdf)

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-09-03-crib-notes-popi-is-here-for-you (http://mg.co.za/article/2013-09-03-crib-notes-popi-is-here-for-you)

Our website guys had to ensure that no one can obtain student info by just typing in a student number, you have to use ID number and passwords now. But here is a semi government website that is clearly not compliant.

Please send that info to OUTA, they will know what to do with it  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 05, 2013, 10:42:47 am
PAPI states that one should not be able to obtain another persons information from any electronic database... on the E-Toll website i can do so when typing in any registration number... ego the website/system is not PAPI complaint. Who is going to lay a charge? >:D

Papi wag vir jou....   :biggrin:

Which website is that? Link?
Damn... I meant POPI legislation! :imaposer:
http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/bills/B9-2009_ProtectionofPersonalInformation.pdf (http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/bills/B9-2009_ProtectionofPersonalInformation.pdf)

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-09-03-crib-notes-popi-is-here-for-you (http://mg.co.za/article/2013-09-03-crib-notes-popi-is-here-for-you)

Our website guys had to ensure that no one can obtain student info by just typing in a student number, you have to use ID number and passwords now. But here is a semi government website that is clearly not compliant.

Please send that info to OUTA, they will know what to do with it  :thumleft:
Popped it on their FB page.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 10:51:09 am
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Heimer on December 05, 2013, 11:43:01 am
There is an interesting dilemma here.

To protect your personal information they need to change the website and allow you to register to access it

But forcing you to register to acces information of alleged pictures of you, allegedly using their toll gates can't be enforceable
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 11:48:48 am
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?

Found it.
But you have to click it twice. Weird.
https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 11:56:27 am
Stand up and put your one foot back to obscure your plate.

 ;D ;D ;D

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/23/article-2007431-0CB3A0E900000578-364_468x286.jpg)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: mox on December 05, 2013, 12:01:50 pm
Chain wax on plate, charcoal dust from empty charcoal bag  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 05, 2013, 12:11:49 pm
There is an interesting dilemma here.

To protect your personal information they need to change the website and allow you to register to access it

But forcing you to register to acces information of alleged pictures of you, allegedly using their toll gates can't be enforceable
No dilemma at all if they use the ID/Registration number combo. Then there is no need for you to register but you can check if someone has cloned your plate. Your plate number may be available to be copied while you park but your ID number should be more secure.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 05, 2013, 01:02:02 pm
The essence of OCR is the tollerences and patterns used for recognition. These vary from engine to engine. The software has to firstly "find" your number plate in the image. So placing your numberl plate off centre will challenge the engine under load. It also has to differentiate any other letters on the vehicle from the "Number Plate" characters. There is a limit on the tollerence of angles horizontally - some software use deskew techniques to do so but are also places extra strain on the engine and costs machine time - very taxing under high volume and load conditions. Spacing between characters are also important. For eample if your's was "G  P" versus "GP" signifies two "words" versus one. The clarity of the letters - i.e. faded letters also cause strain and may fail pattern matching.

So it would be useful to find out what OCR engines are being used and see what the tolerences are and maybe there are some loopholes. :biggrin:

 :sip:

what about placing a few stickers on your card close to the number plate, using the same font and colour?

"123 fok etol gp"or something?

would that confuse the OCR engine?  :laughing4:





like so

Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 05, 2013, 01:17:04 pm
I hear the the communication workers union is not going to deliver etoll bills as part of a strike/go slow.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 05, 2013, 01:17:53 pm
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?

Found it.
But you have to click it twice. Weird.
https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)
It's there but not there, sort of as if they want you to register first. >:D
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: punisher on December 05, 2013, 01:37:12 pm
Yup. If one has someones reg number , one can see how much someone owes

Privacy act my arse hahahahahah
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Kykdaar on December 05, 2013, 01:42:40 pm
The essence of OCR is the tollerences and patterns used for recognition. These vary from engine to engine. The software has to firstly "find" your number plate in the image. So placing your numberl plate off centre will challenge the engine under load. It also has to differentiate any other letters on the vehicle from the "Number Plate" characters. There is a limit on the tollerence of angles horizontally - some software use deskew techniques to do so but are also places extra strain on the engine and costs machine time - very taxing under high volume and load conditions. Spacing between characters are also important. For eample if your's was "G  P" versus "GP" signifies two "words" versus one. The clarity of the letters - i.e. faded letters also cause strain and may fail pattern matching.

So it would be useful to find out what OCR engines are being used and see what the tolerences are and maybe there are some loopholes. :biggrin:

I was wondering why, if these cameras are so good, it would be necessary for e-tags at all.

 If, for arguments sake you had an account with Sanral and your number plate is listed there, why would they need the E-tag to make the connection and not just use the number plate recognition software.

It seems from the above, that it is still a lot more difficult to do it via the camera?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Kykdaar on December 05, 2013, 01:43:59 pm
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?

Found it.
But you have to click it twice. Weird.
https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)
It's there but not there, sort of as if they want you to register first. >:D


Tried it but it says that the function has been erased?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: PierreO on December 05, 2013, 01:45:45 pm
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?

Found it.
But you have to click it twice. Weird.
https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)
It's there but not there, sort of as if they want you to register first. >:D

Double click , dubbel klik , druk die muis twee keer vinnig .

Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DirtCopper on December 05, 2013, 01:47:05 pm
 :lol8: :lol8:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 05, 2013, 01:51:21 pm
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?

Found it.
But you have to click it twice. Weird.
https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)
It's there but not there, sort of as if they want you to register first. >:D


Tried it but it says that the function has been erased?
then you're doing it wrong ;)

just click on the link twice - the 2nd window that opens should be fine
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 05, 2013, 01:54:51 pm
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?

Found it.
But you have to click it twice. Weird.
https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)
It's there but not there, sort of as if they want you to register first. >:D


Tried it but it says that the function has been erased?
2 to retries gets you in, you have to cut and paste the url a few times.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Kykdaar on December 05, 2013, 01:56:05 pm
Cool thanks  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 02:25:54 pm
Sorry, I meant what is the link to the website where you can put in the registration number to see the toll fees?

Found it.
But you have to click it twice. Weird.
https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)
It's there but not there, sort of as if they want you to register first. >:D


Tried it but it says that the function has been erased?
2 to retries gets you in, you have to cut and paste the url a few times.

This plate is not recognised by the system.....

(http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29882.0;attach=322174;image)

This dog is becoming famous on the interwebs.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: 650Thumper on December 05, 2013, 04:10:27 pm
...3 Days in and the  bill(unregistered) sits at R40 already.

So until we reach "Defcon 1" and go make a few bonfires...

(Question)
If I replace the blue (non-reflective) lettering of my number plate with some 3M Blue reflective tape so that both the lettering and the background reflects light back to the camera..?  this way the plate looks ok (during day time) to the naked eye but the plate is a (almost)white-out to the cameras.

Well, I'll let you all know...  onto ebay we go..





Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DRAZIL on December 05, 2013, 05:05:08 pm
how does the tag work,does it transmit a radio signal and if so can't someone simulate that signal to show that one has paid.
clone the etag type of thing.
Title: Re:
Post by: Groenie on December 05, 2013, 05:46:44 pm
Works with RFID. Gantry transmits a signal and etag gets activated by it, responding with the unique is
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: 650Thumper on December 12, 2013, 07:18:32 am
...my (blue)luminous tape ordered from Canada,(previous post) hope it doesn't take too long...

Plan B:  Polarized/Directional  Perspex or Film :

If the gantry looks down at 30' something like this might work...

http://www.smartwindowfilms.com/smartfilms_lumisty.html (http://www.smartwindowfilms.com/smartfilms_lumisty.html)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 07:20:19 am
...my luminous tape ordered from Canada, hope it doesn't take too long...

Plan B:  Polarized/Directional  Perspex or Film :

If the gantry looks down at 30' something like this might work...

http://www.smartwindowfilms.com/smartfilms_lumisty.html (http://www.smartwindowfilms.com/smartfilms_lumisty.html)


OK now we're talking  :thumleft:

How much?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 07:25:37 am
...my luminous tape ordered from Canada, hope it doesn't take too long...

Plan B:  Polarized/Directional  Perspex or Film :

If the gantry looks down at 30' something like this might work...

http://www.smartwindowfilms.com/smartfilms_lumisty.html (http://www.smartwindowfilms.com/smartfilms_lumisty.html)


There is already a purposely made film you can buy for your number plate and for the cameras. Posted somewhere else on the forum.


Would personally love to have switchable smart glass film. You stick it over your plate and it looks normal but at the push of a button it goes opaque.

From alibaba  PDLC film
(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v7/463182066/switchable_privacy_glass_film.jpg)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: 650Thumper on December 12, 2013, 07:39:11 am
...We're getting closer   :thumleft:

(will contact the smartfilm company and try get a sample send over)

Thanks for sharing guys, something ought to work, ...in a sneaky, inconspicuous way
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 08:46:40 am
There is already a purposely made film you can buy for your number plate and for the cameras. Posted somewhere else on the forum.

Photoshield  http://www.phantomplate.com/photoshield.html (http://www.phantomplate.com/photoshield.html)

http://youtu.be/R2yjJGT9ja0 (http://youtu.be/R2yjJGT9ja0)   :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer:

Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 08:50:52 am
Another one

http://www.ontrackcorp.com/toll-free-protector.cfm?id=02 (http://www.ontrackcorp.com/toll-free-protector.cfm?id=02)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 08:51:10 am
Is this so?

the recently enacted, so-called ‘E-Tolls Bill’ makes non-compliance a criminal act.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 09:01:19 am
Is this so?

the recently enacted, so-called ‘E-Tolls Bill’ makes non-compliance a criminal act.

No.  That is if by non-compliance you mean not getting an etag.

OUTA, AA etc have all repeated, ad nauseum, it is perfectly legal to not get an etag and pay via other means.  Just scare mongering.  Some people seem to get a huge kick out of spreading scary rumours, not sure why.

It is illegal to tamper with you licence plate though.  Or not have a number plate, or have a non-regulation plate.

Speaking of which  :biggrin:

If some completely irresponsible anti social misfit were to try and obscure their number plate from those cameras I would think some sort of film would be better than a screen in front of the plate which would be very obvious - as oppose to a thin film applied to the plate.  Just saying... there's no accounting for what some people will do  ;)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 09:58:42 am
Is this so?

the recently enacted, so-called ‘E-Tolls Bill’ makes non-compliance a criminal act.

No.  That is if by non-compliance you mean not getting an etag.


Not referring to the e-tag issue in this thread. Rather putting a film over the plate and using it to evade toll would be non-compliance.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 10:04:22 am
If some completely irresponsible anti social misfit were to try and obscure their number plate from those cameras I would think some sort of film would be better than a screen in front of the plate which would be very obvious - as oppose to a thin film applied to the plate.  Just saying... there's no accounting for what some people will do  ;)

Nothing illegal about putting a screen or whatever over your plate as long as the plate is clearly visible when on the road. (Intermittend screens)
You can totally obstruct your plate when parked on private property as in shopping mall parking or at home.
Using or activating the screen on the road to evade police, cameras, toll would be illegal. On what grounds I don't know.

Toll seems to be illegal due to non-compliance in the E-Toll bill - but they first have to catch you.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 10:53:21 am
Is this so?

the recently enacted, so-called ‘E-Tolls Bill’ makes non-compliance a criminal act.

No.  That is if by non-compliance you mean not getting an etag.


Not referring to the e-tag issue in this thread. Rather putting a film over the plate and using it to evade toll would be non-compliance.

No, that would be a traffic violation and cost you R500

Vehicle with a number plate not clearly legible or visible  - Reg. 35(2)(e) R500
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 11:06:03 am
No, that would be a traffic violation and cost you R500

Vehicle with a number plate not clearly legible or visible  - Reg. 35(2)(e) R500

Traffic violation if you run into a traffic cop.

If SANRAL makes a case for non-compliance as per the E-tag bill then it is another issue. Summons to go to court and whatever follows?

We will have to wait and see what will happen if this ever happens.
First Sanral have to figure out who you are which is difficult without a number plate on the images.
Maybe they link one image with a plate to another without or they catch you in the act. Then the police need to make a case beyond reasonable doubt.
Even if it goes this far then what is the fine/consequences etc.

Thinking out loud here.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 12:34:04 pm
No, that would be a traffic violation and cost you R500

Vehicle with a number plate not clearly legible or visible  - Reg. 35(2)(e) R500

Traffic violation if you run into a traffic cop.

If SANRAL makes a case for non-compliance as per the E-tag bill then it is another issue. Summons to go to court and whatever follows?

We will have to wait and see what will happen if this ever happens.
First Sanral have to figure out who you are which is difficult without a number plate on the images.
Maybe they link one image with a plate to another without or they catch you in the act. Then the police need to make a case beyond reasonable doubt.
Even if it goes this far then what is the fine/consequences etc.

Thinking out loud here.

I don't see how the penalties would be any worse than the existing penalties for fiddling with your number plate.  And if they are their constitutionality needs to be tested.

I've also wondered about some sort of facial recognition type algorithm applied to the car so the software "recognises your car" - but while its perfectly possible, I think the computing required in each case is probably impractical, plus the legalities of proving it is in fact your car beyond doubt probably makes it not worth while.

Plus it remains to be seen how enthusiastically our staunch defenders of the peace enforce the new law.  Anything which means they actually have get off their arses and which cant be quickly turned into a suggestion for a bribe, doesn't seem to really interest them.  Look at how many people ride around now without plates. 
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DouglasN on December 12, 2013, 01:31:21 pm
A guy was just arrested in a car on the east rand for having a NO- e-toll sticker on part of his number plate.

arrested by JMPD and taken to an e-toll gantry to wait for sanral guys.

Was then let go.

no sure of how much of late was obscured, will see if a pic comes through.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 01:34:41 pm
A guy was just arrested in a car on the east rand for having a NO- e-toll sticker on part of his number plate.

arrested by JMPD and taken to an e-toll gantry to wait for sanral guys.

Was then let go.

no sure of how much of late was obscured, will see if a pic comes through.

Interesting.

Have you got any links or more details?  We need to pass this sort of info on to OUTA.

If they just let him go, was it because they didn't have a case and were just intimidating him hoping to get a bribe?  Its a sad fact that you cant trust the cops these days.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 01:40:12 pm
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 01:45:25 pm
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit

Thanks - good info.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DouglasN on December 12, 2013, 01:47:42 pm
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/)


number plate was somewhat obscured
was arrested by JMPD
was taken to SARAL gantry to wait for SANRAL commisioner

seems nobody knew what to do and eventually just released him.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 02:01:34 pm
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/)


number plate was somewhat obscured
was arrested by JMPD
was taken to SARAL gantry to wait for SANRAL commisioner

seems nobody knew what to do and eventually just released him.

we need some lawyers to start wrongful arrest cases
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 02:06:30 pm
Just sent the following message to OUTA

Quote
Hi

Just thought I would pass some info on to you guys about someone arrested by the metro police and taken to the nearest gantry and then let go.

"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/)

number plate was somewhat obscured
was arrested by JMPD
was taken to SARAL gantry to wait for SANRAL commisioner

seems nobody knew what to do and eventually just released him."

Can you please confirm whether they are entitled to do that?

What is a "SANRAL Commisioner", what powers does he have?

What would you advise motorists to do in these circumstances?

Regards
Alan

Will post their reply here if I get one.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: growweblaar on December 12, 2013, 02:32:17 pm
I work for a company that develops custom Computer Vision systems. I haven't worked on ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition), but I can tell you that commercial ANPR algorithms are seriously advanced and can deal with a a high margin of noise and error.

That said, the first step in the multi-stage process, is image segmentation or "localization", which attempts to isolate your plate in the image. I'm not sure how sophisticated this algorithm is in the specific system used by eToll, but something like the van showed earlier would certainly make it work harder and, perhaps, make mistakes:

(http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=140106.0;attach=322165;image)

The Character Segmentation step can deal with a fair amount of error (e.g. slightly obscured, broken, faded or dirt on letters), but at some point it will fail, e.g. if you always ride with your bicycle partly obscuring your plate (maybe someone should make very lightweight, fake cycles that you can stick on permanently ;D ).

Some systems use infrared (IR) cameras, sometimes in addition to normal cameras. IR cameras can be jammed by installing an array of bright IR LEDs around your plate. Of course, these are invisible to the naked eye. It would be very useful to know if the eToll system uses IR.

I don't have info on the specific system, but from knowledge of the field, I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that no commercial system will be able to recognize the license disk travelling at 120km/h in your window.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DouglasN on December 12, 2013, 02:40:40 pm
UPDATE!!!!

George was driving by the Olifantsfontein intersection when an EMPD vehicle waved him over. There were 2 cops. 1st cop ' Do you know about your number plate'? George says no whilst walking to the back and says it was a prank on his wife's car. The cop then attempts to pull the entire plate off and George stopped him saying just take the sticker off, which George did. Cop 2 takes it from George and replaces it saying you can't do that and that he must follow them to SANRAL toll booth and speak to the SANRAL commissioner to see what to do.

George drives to the SANRAL toll and goes into the building - cops don't follow. He gets in and demands to see the Commissioner - so they call him. Then the cops walk in. George tells them to take a seat as he has already called the Commissioner - they then respond with 'why did you do that?' we actually mean our commissioner and we have called him. George says 'You said you had to speak to SANRAL to see what to do so bring your commissioner too , let's have a conference'. .

He asks the guy from SANRAL if it is illegal not to have an etag and he says no it is not.

While waiting George decides to take a walk to the ENGEN garage to buy a colddrink and as he is walking the SANRAL guy and cops call him - he turns around and asks what and if he is e under arrest, to which they then wave him off. When he returns they have all GONE!

He walks to his car takes the sticker off and puts it in his boot. As he exits the ENGEN garage the EMPD wait just at side of on ramp. They pull him over AGAIN. The commissioner then asks if he had a sticker on and he said yes, it's in the boot. He also says that the cops who pulled him over didn't know what to do.

The cop said that he can put anti e-toll stickers anywhere except over the plate and to have a nice day.

It appears they realised they had made a mistake and probably didn't think George would go into the SANRAL office and then thought to catch him again on way out.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 02:54:41 pm
UPDATE!!!!

George was driving by the Olifantsfontein intersection when an EMPD vehicle waved him over. There were 2 cops. 1st cop ' Do you know about your number plate'? George says no whilst walking to the back and says it was a prank on his wife's car. The cop then attempts to pull the entire plate off and George stopped him saying just take the sticker off, which George did. Cop 2 takes it from George and replaces it saying you can't do that and that he must follow them to SANRAL toll booth and speak to the SANRAL commissioner to see what to do.

George drives to the SANRAL toll and goes into the building - cops don't follow. He gets in and demands to see the Commissioner - so they call him. Then the cops walk in. George tells them to take a seat as he has already called the Commissioner - they then respond with 'why did you do that?' we actually mean our commissioner and we have called him. George says 'You said you had to speak to SANRAL to see what to do so bring your commissioner too , let's have a conference'. .

He asks the guy from SANRAL if it is illegal not to have an etag and he says no it is not.

While waiting George decides to take a walk to the ENGEN garage to buy a colddrink and as he is walking the SANRAL guy and cops call him - he turns around and asks what and if he is e under arrest, to which they then wave him off. When he returns they have all GONE!

He walks to his car takes the sticker off and puts it in his boot. As he exits the ENGEN garage the EMPD wait just at side of on ramp. They pull him over AGAIN. The commissioner then asks if he had a sticker on and he said yes, it's in the boot. He also says that the cops who pulled him over didn't know what to do.

The cop said that he can put anti e-toll stickers anywhere except over the plate and to have a nice day.

It appears they realised they had made a mistake and probably didn't think George would go into the SANRAL office and then thought to catch him again on way out.

Sounds like pure intimidation to me!

They were just hoping he would make some sort of offer to get them off his back.  Looks like some of the Metro cops have seized upon people's fear of what might happen and are milking it.  It doesn't sound like there is any basis in law for what they were doing.  If there was why not just write out the appropriate fine or summons?  Why the big rigmarole of taking him somewhere else?

What really pisses me off is you hear more and more stories like this about the cops - blatantly inventing "crimes" and then getting really aggressive with the public in an attempt to get some sort of a bribe.  Their management cant be oblivious to to the problem but dont seem to be inclined to do anything about it.

IMO this had nothing to do with etolls and everything to do with police corruption.

I REALLY wish one of the lawyers here help out with some advice on what to do in the various situations.  It would be a massive help.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 02:55:25 pm
I work for a company that develops custom Computer Vision systems. I haven't worked on ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition), but I can tell you that commercial ANPR algorithms are seriously advanced and can deal with a a high margin of noise and error.

That said, the first step in the multi-stage process, is image segmentation or "localization", which attempts to isolate your plate in the image. I'm not sure how sophisticated this algorithm is in the specific system used by eToll, but something like the van showed earlier would certainly make it work harder and, perhaps, make mistakes:

(http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=140106.0;attach=322165;image)

The Character Segmentation step can deal with a fair amount of error (e.g. slightly obscured, broken, faded or dirt on letters), but at some point it will fail, e.g. if you always ride with your bicycle partly obscuring your plate (maybe someone should make very lightweight, fake cycles that you can stick on permanently ;D ).

Some systems use infrared (IR) cameras, sometimes in addition to normal cameras. IR cameras can be jammed by installing an array of bright IR LEDs around your plate. Of course, these are invisible to the naked eye. It would be very useful to know if the eToll system uses IR.

I don't have info on the specific system, but from knowledge of the field, I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that no commercial system will be able to recognize the license disk travelling at 120km/h in your window.

Thanks thats good info  :thumleft:

I think I need to get a few more stickers!
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: KiLRoy on December 12, 2013, 07:24:10 pm
What are the Scumral officers powers? Do i have to stop ? On who's authority?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: knightrat on December 12, 2013, 07:51:16 pm
Not even the beast gets passed them.. http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:03:06 pm
What are the Scumral officers powers? Do i have to stop ? On who's authority?

AFAIK they have been given the same authority as normal traffic cops, but they can only enforce the AARTO laws
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: KiLRoy on December 12, 2013, 08:14:47 pm
Power of arrest too?

So its now ok to contract law enforcement out to privately own firms?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:17:52 pm
Power of arrest too?

So its now ok to contract law enforcement out to privately own firms?

I think so, but you must remember there are very few instances where they can arrest you - I'm hoping OUTA will soon have their defiance pack ready and it should contain all our rights
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:19:47 pm
ping AlanB

maybe we should start a thread with various questions that we need conclusive answers to?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:28:39 pm
ping AlanB

maybe we should start a thread with various questions that we need conclusive answers to?

Done
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:32:34 pm
ping AlanB

maybe we should start a thread with various questions that we need conclusive answers to?

Done
:thumleft:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: growweblaar on December 13, 2013, 02:35:04 pm
I've done a little research. It seems the system is supplied by Kapsch TrafficCom of Austria and, looking at the two ANPR systems they supply (http://www.kapsch.net/za/ktc/products/video-sensor/automatic-number-plate-recognition), it must be the VR-2 system (data-sheet here (http://www.kapsch.net/ktc/downloads/datasheets/video-sensor/Kapsch-KTC-DS-VR_2?lang=en-US)).

It's based on a digital colour camera with resolution of 1392x1032. The other (VDR) system uses Infrared (IR), but it looks like this one does not. The blue glow around the gantries is most probably additional illumination to improve image intensity. The use of blue might be because of its higher energy, and the camera can be fitted with a filter to respond mainly to blue. Perhaps the fact that the GP plates have blue lettering contributes to the equation.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 13, 2013, 02:55:20 pm
With that resolution then there is no way they can read a licence disk.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 03:06:24 pm
I've done a little research. It seems the system is supplied by Kapsch TrafficCom of Austria and, looking at the two ANPR systems they supply (http://www.kapsch.net/za/ktc/products/video-sensor/automatic-number-plate-recognition), it must be the VR-2 system (data-sheet here (http://www.kapsch.net/ktc/downloads/datasheets/video-sensor/Kapsch-KTC-DS-VR_2?lang=en-US)).

It's based on a digital colour camera with resolution of 1392x1032. The other (VDR) system uses Infrared (IR), but it looks like this one does not. The blue glow around the gantries is most probably additional illumination to improve image intensity. The use of blue might be because of its higher energy, and the camera can be fitted with a filter to respond mainly to blue. Perhaps the fact that the GP plates have blue lettering contributes to the equation.

Does that mean it reads blue lettering more effectively?  So if you have lots of blue writing near the number plate it will get confused?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 03:11:59 pm
Their spec sheet says 870nm wavelength illumination.  That's infrared right?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 03:19:31 pm
This is really great info.

The camera is triggered by some sot of separate proximity sensor, any idea how that works?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: growweblaar on December 13, 2013, 03:27:53 pm
Their spec sheet says 870nm wavelength illumination.  That's infrared right?

I see the datasheet says:

Peak wavelength 870nm / 830nm (other wavelengths available on request, also white light).

870/830nm is infrared, yes, but I guess they've opted for "other wavelength" (blue), not sure.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 03:31:17 pm
Do you know of any sort of film that is transparent at normal frequencies but reflective at those frequencies?

That would be perfect, just stick it over the plate, difficult to detect unless you carry around a light of that colour?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: J-dog on December 13, 2013, 04:02:27 pm
From another forum:  :sip:

I used to work in this field so I can give a basic idea. The tag is based on RFID technology, so in theory when you drive through the gate, the RFID is triggered to pulse its information to the gantry. This is the easy solution for e-tolling.

You will see that there are the black lights and cameras posted next to each other. The white area of a car's number plate is designed/painted to reflect black light which are then picked up by the cameras as a black and white image. You will also see that there are paint markings on the road under the gantry that are used as trigger points. The trigger points initiate the taking of pictures as well as determining the class of vehicle currently passing the gantry. They then have a server/s that process the images to retrieve the number plate, length of vehicle. They also take a picture of the vehicle as part of the record in case of a dispute from clients. The problem with number plate recognition is the fact that typical accuracy is 94% (to reach 98% accuracy starts costing so much its not feasible), which leaves a massive margin of undetectable plates. So if a plate can't be recognised automatically, they have to manually annotate the "toll" which will be at cost to them. I don't know what camera's they are using but we used to use ARHungary's product (currently running at ACSA aiports when you go into the parking area where you pull your ticket) which is incredibly fast, very accurate, but very very expensive. The one used for e-toll look like a cheaper solution. So SANRAL want you to use tags, because it makes they life very very easy in terms of maintenance and effort.

I hope someone finds this interesting.

Yup... this whole post exactly. One of the cameras will likely have an infrared (or UV) filter that will only pick up infrared or UV light. This way only the reflective part of the number plate is visible to the camera, making OCR easier. If it's infrared, it's easy to screw up the cameras with a few infrared LED's. I wonder if they are using the same concept but with UV though? They will have full colour images as well, so you need to obscure the plate in some way if you want to prevent manual detection by an operator... and not have an e-tag.

As for the tags... if they are RFID tech... they would have to be IPX tags as EPC tags are useless above 80km/h... and even IPX tags don't pick up over 160km/h (but if you are doing that through a gantry I guess you'd get a ticket if your plate didn't have mud:P) Also, the transmitters would have to be f'ing powerful to get any kind of decent range. I'd imagine that they'd have some kind of active tag technology to get the range they'd need.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: J-dog on December 13, 2013, 04:03:38 pm
 >:D

http://www.ghostplates.com/ (http://www.ghostplates.com/)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: NeelsK on December 13, 2013, 04:44:44 pm
Their spec sheet says 870nm wavelength illumination.  That's infrared right?
Yes
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Chili Dog on December 15, 2013, 06:40:35 pm
>:D

http://www.ghostplates.com/ (http://www.ghostplates.com/)
Closed for holidays!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: RobC on December 15, 2013, 07:46:55 pm
IR and UF leds are available... :sip:
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 16, 2013, 02:33:53 pm
Here's an idea, rig up a system with your window washer pump so when you go under an etoll you can spray a fine mist in front of your number plate. Could that work?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: BlueBull2007 on December 16, 2013, 02:53:13 pm
I think its ultra violet light not infrared.

The blue numbers plates just absorb blue light as JDog said.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: alanB on December 16, 2013, 10:52:14 pm
I think its ultra violet light not infrared.

The blue numbers plates just absorb blue light as JDog said.

Ja its not Infrared, the specs on the pamphlet say their normal illuminator is infrared, but they arent using that, you can see the light, so its not completely ultraviolet, it just seems to be some particular colour blue, but maybe it includes UV?

Need to know more because if it does include UV, and the camera records UV, then a clear film that reflects UV might obscure the plate but would not be easily detectable (ie appear transparent to naked eye).

Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Cracker on December 17, 2013, 04:11:57 pm
From another forum:  :sip:

I used to work in this field so I can give a basic idea. The tag is based on RFID technology, so in theory when you drive through the gate, the RFID is triggered to pulse its information to the gantry. This is the easy solution for e-tolling.

You will see that there are the black lights and cameras posted next to each other. The white area of a car's number plate is designed/painted to reflect black light which are then picked up by the cameras as a black and white image. You will also see that there are paint markings on the road under the gantry that are used as trigger points. The trigger points initiate the taking of pictures as well as determining the class of vehicle currently passing the gantry. They then have a server/s that process the images to retrieve the number plate, length of vehicle. They also take a picture of the vehicle as part of the record in case of a dispute from clients. The problem with number plate recognition is the fact that typical accuracy is 94% (to reach 98% accuracy starts costing so much its not feasible), which leaves a massive margin of undetectable plates. So if a plate can't be recognised automatically, they have to manually annotate the "toll" which will be at cost to them. I don't know what camera's they are using but we used to use ARHungary's product (currently running at ACSA aiports when you go into the parking area where you pull your ticket) which is incredibly fast, very accurate, but very very expensive. The one used for e-toll look like a cheaper solution. So SANRAL want you to use tags, because it makes they life very very easy in terms of maintenance and effort.

I hope someone finds this interesting.

Yup... this whole post exactly. One of the cameras will likely have an infrared (or UV) filter that will only pick up infrared or UV light. This way only the reflective part of the number plate is visible to the camera, making OCR easier. If it's infrared, it's easy to screw up the cameras with a few infrared LED's. I wonder if they are using the same concept but with UV though? They will have full colour images as well, so you need to obscure the plate in some way if you want to prevent manual detection by an operator... and not have an e-tag.

As for the tags... if they are RFID tech... they would have to be IPX tags as EPC tags are useless above 80km/h... and even IPX tags don't pick up over 160km/h (but if you are doing that through a gantry I guess you'd get a ticket if your plate didn't have mud:P) Also, the transmitters would have to be f'ing powerful to get any kind of decent range. I'd imagine that they'd have some kind of active tag technology to get the range they'd need.

So, all we need to do is avoid the trigger, which is in the middle of the lane, plain to see. If I were to go under a gantry while straddling the lanes, I will miss the trigger.

Whcih means they won't know I'm there coz I ain't got a tag either - worth a try?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Ganjora on December 17, 2013, 04:14:28 pm
So, all we need to do is avoid the trigger, which is in the middle of the lane, plain to see. If I were to go under a gantry while straddling the lanes, I will miss the trigger.

Whcih means they won't know I'm there coz I ain't got a tag either - worth a try?

absolutely worth a try.
wear your numberplate,  and register on the e--toll site.
that way you can tell us if you get a bill.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Kneeslider on December 18, 2013, 07:31:55 pm
Some very interesting info coming through, when photos start appearing in a month or two, they will give up valuable information so as to know exactly what we dealing with and what the actual capabilities are.

So as I understand it so far, a pic is taken from the front as well as the back, the software morphs the two together creating a 3D image which is then used to measure the length of the vehicle, as well as the height.
The number plate is read via OCR software, and compared to the info on the transponder, if fitted, length and height of vehicle confirm correct class of vehicle.
Cameras are mounted at roughly 30 degree angle, give or take.

This info opens the flood gates to valid disputes if known, as few questions remain unanswered, or maybe I missed them, but are of little matter anyhow.
Which number plate does the OCR read and take the info from, front or back? Ok on a bike the back obviously, what about a car? front or back, or does it compare the two to verify, what if there are two different plates on the frno and the back? Will the OCR pick it up and flag it, or will it assume either front or back to be valid?

So here is the drill, read the traffic ahead when approaching a gantry, find a big truck, position yourself behind the truck and gradually start closing up on it, time it so that just before you are under the gantry you have closed right up and are slipstreaming the truck by about one or two meters, once through the gantry you can break off and continue on your way, if timed properly you only have to tail him by a meter or so for no more than 5-10 sec.

As I understand it, I assume that a meter will be close enough for the system not to be able to differentiate between the two vehicles, and thus the composite image will be of the two vehicles as a single vehicle.
The cameras will see the trucks front number plate and your rear plate, thus throwing up two different numbers, being unable to see your front or the trucks rear plates.
The vehicle length will be the sum of both vehicles and the height, that of the truck.
One of two hings, the trucks front number plate is read and the info used, you get off Scott free, truck pays.
Or, system uses the info from the back plate, (yours) and you get billed for an articulated vehicle size
You could have a field day disputing this one, and it would be valid disputes.
I have been doing it foe a few days now, lets see, if I ever get any bills.

Your thoughts, am I missin something here?

Oh, and I made a point of looking today, the gantries at Giloolees, van Buuren and Rand Airport rd as well as the ones at Geldenhuis and opposite O.R Tambo do not have any equipment over the emergency lanes.







Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 19, 2013, 09:02:28 am
An OUTA survey of cars on offramps showed that only 15% of cars are tagged.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 19, 2013, 05:12:13 pm
@Kneeslider

I wonder what their system does with a trailer behind a vehicle? Also two different plates  ???
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: punisher on December 19, 2013, 07:27:23 pm
can u guys get all the "good" info given here , compile it onto a naaaaaace news paper size sheet , so i can read it on the krapper


to me it doesnt really matter what doo dahs they using ......... i aint paying  simple  :)
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Geriatrix on December 22, 2013, 05:12:14 pm
Perhaps the most important question:

Are there any Lawyers here who will take on eToll cases?
I think we are going to need them.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 22, 2013, 05:14:07 pm
Perhaps the most important question:

Are there any Lawyers here who will take on eToll cases?
I think we are going to need them.

OUTA and the FF have offered that service already
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Geriatrix on December 22, 2013, 07:28:24 pm
OUTA and the FF have offered that service already

I hope that they have lots of Lawyers available.
There should be at least several hundred thousand cases a month.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on December 23, 2013, 12:40:30 pm
OUTA and the FF have offered that service already

I hope that they have lots of Lawyers available.
There should be at least several hundred thousand cases a month.

I think there will only be one or two test cases early on, but let's see
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on January 15, 2014, 12:32:56 pm
Their spec sheet says 870nm wavelength illumination.  That's infrared right?

I see the datasheet says:

Peak wavelength 870nm / 830nm (other wavelengths available on request, also white light).

870/830nm is infrared, yes, but I guess they've opted for "other wavelength" (blue), not sure.


Seems the 870 nm is a blue light or do they just use a blue filter over it ???

http://www.chinasecuritysystem.com/Bernee-Brand/Infrared-Light/229.html (http://www.chinasecuritysystem.com/Bernee-Brand/Infrared-Light/229.html)

150m Infrared Light(Φ10 IR Led, Wavelength 870nm)

(http://www.chinasecuritysystem.com/uploads/product/BN-H150-w600.jpg)



>:D

http://www.ghostplates.com/ (http://www.ghostplates.com/)

http://www.ghostplates.com/x-treme_ir_protector.html (http://www.ghostplates.com/x-treme_ir_protector.html) 

Would be worth trying ???

Or mounting a IR LED in the pop rivets if it does not emit visible light?
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on January 15, 2014, 12:35:23 pm
PS  You get IR film used for building windows.  Maybe worth a try to see if that works.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on January 15, 2014, 01:03:37 pm
JPSA ripping Sanral website apart  :lol8:

http://www.jp-sa.org/eTollsSANRALwebsite.asp (http://www.jp-sa.org/eTollsSANRALwebsite.asp)

and their recommendations:

"What does JPSA advise people to do?

JPSA is not in a position to tell you you should go about dealing with SANRAL and their eTolls. All we can do is to present the facts to you and tell you what our stance is:

    We are not registered for eTolls and have no intention of doing so;
    We have challenged the Department of Transport and other government departments to provide answers with respect to defective legislation and the unnecessary threats levelled by SANRAL against the public. They have not responded other than through the media to any of our challenges up to and including Sunday 12 January 2014;
    Even with the access to the VPC having been made available without forcing registration for eTolls we would not use their website for any other purpose than accessing information and forms that are only available on their website due to, amongst other things, the security risks associated therewith.
    We would most certainly not provide any personal information, including but not limited to cell phone numbers and email addresses to them, given the acutely demonstrated existing security vulnerablities and the total lack of any assurance by them to keep personal information safe. In fact, they do the exact opposite by stating their direct intent to disclaim any liability.

Knowing this, if you wish to go ahead and register with SANRAL, remembering that this will be for both, use of their website and subscription to eTolls, then don't let us stop you. Similarly however, please don't come back to us and say we didn't tell you what we have found to be the case on the SANRAL/ETC eTolls website."
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Leo on January 15, 2014, 01:12:27 pm
@Kneeslider

I wonder what their system does with a trailer behind a vehicle? Also two different plates  ???

I work for a big transport company. Since mid December I've been getting these SMS'es saying our account is in arrears. I asked for statements.

Turned out our trailers that are not registered, is being charged when they pass the gantry, but the horse is passing no problem with the e-tag.

Busy arguing the point with them - they acknowledge it's wrong.
Title: Re: Know your enemy
Post by: Bundu on January 15, 2014, 01:18:30 pm
@Kneeslider

I wonder what their system does with a trailer behind a vehicle? Also two different plates  ???

I work for a big transport company. Since mid December I've been getting these SMS'es saying our account is in arrears. I asked for statements.

Turned out our trailers that are not registered, is being charged when they pass the gantry, but the horse is passing no problem with the e-tag.

Busy arguing the point with them - they acknowledge it's wrong.

thanks!  :thumleft:

so many hassles, that could have been avoided by a 10c/ltr fuel levy..... :eek7: