Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => About South Africa... => eTolls - The Resistance => Topic started by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 11:05:33 am

Title: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 11:05:33 am
So you have no e-tag. Then how does the system work?

Here they mention a grace period of 7 days for payment:
http://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/index.php?gort_xml+template~~menu/main~~L1_9699 (http://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/index.php?gort_xml+template~~menu/main~~L1_9699)

Sending invoices and making payment in such a short period is not possible.
Does this implies that the onus is on you to follow up on what you have to pay?
Do they still send you and invoice? By post, email, sms?
What happens when you don't pay in 7 days?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 11:09:18 am
If a road-user does not want to register an e-toll Account, the e-toll fees may be paid at ...........or online by clicking here (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/Default.aspx). In this case it will be required that the road user provide his Vehicle Licence Plate Number.


 ;D ;D ;D

And that takes you here.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 11:12:10 am
What happens when you don't pay in 7 days?

Aahh

Important to note: A road user who chooses not to register an e-toll Account and wants to pay their e-toll fees, has to pay within the grace periodInformationThe Grace Period is the time frame which a road user has in which to pay their outstanding fees.

The Grace Period is 7 days from the time of your transaction. If payment is not made within the grace periodInformationThe Grace Period is the time frame which a road user has in which to pay their outstanding fees.

The Grace Period is 7 days from the time of your transaction , the transaction would be handed over to the VPC (Violations Processing Centre) where higher tariffs will be applicable. A road user who is not registered, does not have an e-tag and does not pay within the seven day grace periodInformationThe Grace Period is the time frame which a road user has in which to pay their outstanding fees.

The Grace Period is 7 days from the time of your transaction is classified as an Alternate UserInformationAn alternate user is a user who does not qualify for any discounts at the time of an e-toll transaction and will pay standard e-toll tarrif rates.

An alternate user is identified at the time of the e-toll transaction by an e-tag or VLN or by both where applicable. and will be liable for the Alternate User tariff.


Seems you just don't qualify for the discount.

That implies that if you pay within 7 days even without an e-tag you still qualify for a discount. ???
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bike_Buddies on December 05, 2013, 11:13:48 am
If a road-user does not want to register an e-toll Account, the e-toll fees may be paid at ...........or online by clicking here (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/Default.aspx). In this case it will be required that the road user provide his Vehicle Licence Plate Number.


 ;D ;D ;D

And that takes you here.


Open the link twice and You'll be directed to the correct page
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Poffmuis on December 05, 2013, 11:48:12 am
What does an organisation pay to process a credit card payment?

If I pay directly after passing each boom (like R2 transactions), will they not start incurring a loss??

a credit card transaction will cost me nothing
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: OomD on December 05, 2013, 02:09:56 pm
If a road-user does not want to register an e-toll Account, the e-toll fees may be paid at ...........or online by clicking here (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/Default.aspx). In this case it will be required that the road user provide his Vehicle Licence Plate Number.


 ;D ;D ;D

And that takes you here.


Open the link twice and You'll be directed to the correct page


What do you mean by  "open the link twice"? Doesn't matter how many times I try to open it, it keeps going to the login page depicted above.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Beebop on December 05, 2013, 02:11:57 pm
if you dont pay within 7 days, you are classified as an "alternate user", and the price doubles.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: laurika on December 05, 2013, 02:14:27 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 02:20:30 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2013, 02:23:26 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)

Edit: The above is relevant to summonses which can not be posted to you.  Your postal address for fines and shit is not an issue. Nothing stops me from getting a postal box and just never collecting any post.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Swart Gevaar on December 05, 2013, 02:28:08 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)

So, what if I make my address like the sometimes have in the West of Ireland where your address is written on an envelope like this:

Mr A Kelly
First white wall after stone wall ends
Enniskerry
Co. Wicklow

In otherwords, no street name, no nr. Like the so many shack dwellers...
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sidpitt on December 05, 2013, 02:30:12 pm
If I lived in Gauteng.....this is what I'd do
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: MegaPix on December 05, 2013, 02:36:00 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)

DOMICILEUM CITANDI ET EXECUTANDI -- Means the physical address where you will keep the asset.  In this case the bike or car.  NOW ?????

How many of us still get postal deliveries at the physical address?  Not many

So what now?? ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: laurika on December 05, 2013, 02:48:03 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)

DOMICILEUM CITANDI ET EXECUTANDI -- Means the physical address where you will keep the asset.  In this case the bike or car.  NOW ?????

How many of us still get postal deliveries at the physical address?  Not many

So what now?? ??? ??? ??? ???
exactly...i have no postal, and i rent and move often...so how do they find you?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: MegaPix on December 05, 2013, 02:49:57 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)

DOMICILEUM CITANDI ET EXECUTANDI -- Means the physical address where you will keep the asset.  In this case the bike or car.  NOW ?????

How many of us still get postal deliveries at the physical address?  Not many

So what now?? ??? ??? ??? ???
exactly...i have no postal, and i rent and move often...so how do they find you?

Their problem and why are you moving so often?  RUNNING?   :imaposer:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: laurika on December 05, 2013, 03:05:51 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)

DOMICILEUM CITANDI ET EXECUTANDI -- Means the physical address where you will keep the asset.  In this case the bike or car.  NOW ?????

How many of us still get postal deliveries at the physical address?  Not many

So what now?? ??? ??? ??? ???
exactly...i have no postal, and i rent and move often...so how do they find you?

Their problem and why are you moving so often?  RUNNING?   :imaposer:
short attention span....
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 05, 2013, 03:11:20 pm
AFAIK paying within 7 days is fine, within 30 days, a certain higher rate, within 60 days another higher rate and after 60 days they hand over to debt collectors - I'm taking the last option, which IMO is the option to make the system fail, as there are not enough debt collectors or judges to handle the load
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: laurika on December 05, 2013, 03:17:00 pm
AFAIK paying within 7 days is fine, within 30 days, a certain higher rate, within 60 days another higher rate and after 60 days they hand over to debt collectors - I'm taking the last option, which IMO is the option to make the system fail, as there are not enough debt collectors or judges to handle the load
hmmm. bit of a gap in the market for debt collectors...perhaps its a great new career path for all those ex army muscle men with all the frustration, and only the traffic to take it out on..... ;)
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bike_Buddies on December 05, 2013, 03:19:02 pm
If a road-user does not want to register an e-toll Account, the e-toll fees may be paid at ...........or online by clicking here (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/Default.aspx). In this case it will be required that the road user provide his Vehicle Licence Plate Number.


 ;D ;D ;D

And that takes you here.


Open the link twice and You'll be directed to the correct page


What do you mean by  "open the link twice"? Doesn't matter how many times I try to open it, it keeps going to the login page depicted above.

Well sorry for you then

It works just fine on my side

https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)

Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: IceCreamMan on December 05, 2013, 03:27:36 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Under correction, but you are obliged to update your 'domicilium et executandi' per law or enatis or whatever, and not doing so may get you in trouble.
But then again, have also not heard of anyone being prosecuted for that. (maybe only as part of another case)

DOMICILEUM CITANDI ET EXECUTANDI -- Means the physical address where you will keep the asset.  In this case the bike or car.  NOW ?????

How many of us still get postal deliveries at the physical address?  Not many

So what now?? ??? ??? ??? ???

not true , its not where you will keep the asset ...but the address where legal notices can be delivered to you...the 2 of course will be mostly the same ... A PO Box is not a valid example as you cannot live in a PO box

it has a number of other legal ramifications too but not sufficient space here
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: OomD on December 05, 2013, 04:16:24 pm
If a road-user does not want to register an e-toll Account, the e-toll fees may be paid at ...........or online by clicking here (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/Default.aspx). In this case it will be required that the road user provide his Vehicle Licence Plate Number.


 ;D ;D ;D

And that takes you here.


Open the link twice and You'll be directed to the correct page


What do you mean by  "open the link twice"? Doesn't matter how many times I try to open it, it keeps going to the login page depicted above.

Well sorry for you then

It works just fine on my side

https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)



Hmmm, even this link of yours takes me to a login screen. I'll try from home tonight, it might have something to do with our network here at the office.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: trackSHUN on December 05, 2013, 04:28:44 pm
If a road-user does not want to register an e-toll Account, the e-toll fees may be paid at ...........or online by clicking here (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/Default.aspx). In this case it will be required that the road user provide his Vehicle Licence Plate Number.


 ;D ;D ;D

And that takes you here.


Open the link twice and You'll be directed to the correct page


What do you mean by  "open the link twice"? Doesn't matter how many times I try to open it, it keeps going to the login page depicted above.

Well sorry for you then

It works just fine on my side

https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)



Hmmm, even this link of yours takes me to a login screen. I'll try from home tonight, it might have something to do with our network here at the office.

From the login screen, replace the "Default.aspx" part of the address in the browser field with the correct"PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx" text and hit <Enter>.

You should then get redirected to the correct page .....
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bike_Buddies on December 05, 2013, 06:25:39 pm
If a road-user does not want to register an e-toll Account, the e-toll fees may be paid at ...........or online by clicking here (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/Default.aspx). In this case it will be required that the road user provide his Vehicle Licence Plate Number.


 ;D ;D ;D

And that takes you here.


Open the link twice and You'll be directed to the correct page


What do you mean by  "open the link twice"? Doesn't matter how many times I try to open it, it keeps going to the login page depicted above.

Well sorry for you then

It works just fine on my side

https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)



Hmmm, even this link of yours takes me to a login screen. I'll try from home tonight, it might have something to do with our network here at the office.

From the login screen, replace the "Default.aspx" part of the address in the browser field with the correct"PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx" text and hit <Enter>.

You should then get redirected to the correct page .....


Tx

There is about 6 threads about this same issue and still this ???

Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: OomD on December 05, 2013, 07:11:54 pm
OK managed to get to the right page now, thanks. One would think they would make it easier for the people.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 05, 2013, 07:20:42 pm
OK managed to get to the right page now, thanks. One would think they would make it easier for the people.
It is because they want you to rather register, tantamount to Phishing. >:D
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: chicco on December 05, 2013, 07:31:34 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Hulle gaan jou kry as jy jou liksens gaan hernu. Of so reken hulle.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: laurika on December 05, 2013, 08:11:37 pm
so they will send my etoll bill to the same non-existing address that all my fines are sent to....so imagine i am not linked to the internet either....how will they then proceed?

Hulle gaan jou kry as jy jou liksens gaan hernu. Of so reken hulle.
dis dalk waar maar het nognie,gebeur met my fines nie...
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: chicco on December 05, 2013, 08:15:27 pm
Ek weet maar die etters werk hard daaraan om die sisteem op die been te kry.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 05, 2013, 08:18:38 pm
dit sal my nie te veel bekommer nie - ek edit eenvoudig 'n scan van die ou een en print vir my 'n nuwe een, terwyl ons nou wette sal moet begin breek
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: chicco on December 05, 2013, 08:20:07 pm
Jy gaan jou kar bike dan vir altyd moet ry, jy gaan hom nie verkoop kry nie.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 05, 2013, 08:24:20 pm
moontlik, as mens aanvaar dat die bostaande toestande vir altyd sal heers
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: punisher on December 05, 2013, 08:25:39 pm
just tried the site now ,  doesnt work  , says liscence plate does not match country where registered  bwahahahahaha ,  the drop down  'country" and " region "  duzznt pop  down   :lol8:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: GRIM on December 06, 2013, 11:39:55 am
just tried the site now ,  doesnt work  , says liscence plate does not match country where registered  bwahahahahaha ,  the drop down  'country" and " region "  duzznt pop  down   :lol8:

Yep, I think their database wobbles occasionally...
 :pot:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 06, 2013, 11:42:46 am
just tried the site now ,  doesnt work  , says liscence plate does not match country where registered  bwahahahahaha ,  the drop down  'country" and " region "  duzznt pop  down   :lol8:

Yep, I think their database wobbles occasionally...
 :pot:
It should not "wobble" at all, if it does it can be taken down by over use. >:D
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: IceCreamMan on December 09, 2013, 09:11:58 am
if you dont pay within 7 days, you are classified as an "alternate user", and the price doubles.

That's exactly it, there is no obligation to get an invoice to you within 7 days or anything like that, the onus is on you as a non etag holder to ensure payment is made. If you do not the price increases to nearly double. SANRAL are also under no obligation to get the bill to you in any sort of period of time however the debt would prescribe after 3 years as per any debt.

So that gives SANRAL 3 years to get onto you by whatever means it can legally utilise.

Using the roads is a tacit agreement to these terms ...

whatever happens its going to be interesting
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: PierreO on December 09, 2013, 09:16:16 am
It is very simple , don't register and don't pay .
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Tommy Transalp on December 09, 2013, 09:18:18 am
After 3 years, my address will have changed.... they want money for roads I travelled three years ago? prove to me that I was there... I sold the vehicle, and it was not re-registered until the current license expired. That was 9 months after the vehicle was sold... now WTF? :peepwall: >:D
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 09, 2013, 09:54:40 am
After 3 years, my address will have changed.... they want money for roads I travelled three years ago? prove to me that I was there... I sold the vehicle, and it was not re-registered until the current license expired. That was 9 months after the vehicle was sold... now WTF? :peepwall: >:D

apparently they only keep the photo evidence for 60 days...
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Chukudeer on December 09, 2013, 10:53:19 am
 :laughing4: :laughing4: :laughing4:

So how they gonna prove that it was me? 
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 09, 2013, 11:56:07 am
:laughing4: :laughing4: :laughing4:

So how they gonna prove that it was me? 

therein lies the irony - they might decide to keep evidence for the non-payers, which will hopefully be the majority
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 09, 2013, 12:00:48 pm
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 09, 2013, 12:24:26 pm
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Tr0jan on December 09, 2013, 12:49:42 pm
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?

They need to be kept for five years! so after two months they cant prove squat? Would like to see how that one holds up in court.


Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: PierreO on December 09, 2013, 12:51:11 pm
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?

I don't think theft can be classified as a financial transaction .
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 09, 2013, 12:58:35 pm
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?

I don't think theft can be classified as a financial transaction .
Oh, you HAVE a tag... :biggrin:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: wiledog_X on December 09, 2013, 01:38:35 pm
"It is now at the discretion of every road user to decide whether or not to register with SANRAL and pay for e-Tolls. If you don’t buy an e-Tag, you are not breaking the law and cannot be arrested for not owning an e-Tag."
- The AA of South Africa

http://www.aa.co.za/about/press-room/commentary/e-tolls-dangerous-precedents-have-been-set.html?Reference_ID=10075557 (http://www.aa.co.za/about/press-room/commentary/e-tolls-dangerous-precedents-have-been-set.html?Reference_ID=10075557)
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Kykdaar on December 09, 2013, 01:44:08 pm
if you dont pay within 7 days, you are classified as an "alternate user", and the price doubles.

That's exactly it, there is no obligation to get an invoice to you within 7 days or anything like that, the onus is on you as a non etag holder to ensure payment is made. If you do not the price increases to nearly double. SANRAL are also under no obligation to get the bill to you in any sort of period of time however the debt would prescribe after 3 years as per any debt.

So that gives SANRAL 3 years to get onto you by whatever means it can legally utilise.
Using the roads is a tacit agreement to these terms ...

whatever happens its going to be interesting

This is a reverse onus and is BS in my view. A tactic used when painted into a corner.

Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 09, 2013, 02:24:46 pm
If any lawyers here could help I would like to suggest the following:

1) A standardised "I dispute your invoice" letter which you can send back once you finally receive your bill.

2) Advice you to draw the whole thing out to max without incurring unnecessary legal risk.

3) Anything else they can think of to help resist this scheme.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Pistol on December 09, 2013, 02:49:43 pm
If any lawyers here could help I would like to suggest the following:

1) A standardised "I dispute your invoice" letter which you can send back once you finally receive your bill.

2) Advice you to draw the whole thing out to max without incurring unnecessary legal risk.

3) Anything else they can think of to help resist this scheme.

Great idea - just a basic draft - give them the run-around with their own legal eagles :thumleft:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: KiLRoy on December 09, 2013, 05:11:31 pm
Explain the process to follow, with all the contact detail, emails and adresses

Then help with a template or two to raise the questions in a legal fashion

Will be great help :thumleft:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 09, 2013, 05:36:20 pm
Explain the process to follow, with all the contact detail, emails and adresses

Then help with a template or two to raise the questions in a legal fashion

Will be great help :thumleft:

I just sent Wayne Duvenage the below email - will post here if I hear something :thumleft:

"Hi again Wayne!
I’m a member on various internet forums and I can tell you that many are still standing strong against e-tolls and intend not paying.

Can we expect any documentation soon from OUTA relating to suggested plan of action, cancellation of e-tag template, request for proof of transactions template, legal implications, summary of our rights etc.?
I know there is some stuff relating to these issues already, but I believe a “e-toll defiance pack” from OUTA would be excellent!

Cheers and thanks for all you have done for South Africa!"

Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 09, 2013, 11:27:54 pm
Explain the process to follow, with all the contact detail, emails and adresses

Then help with a template or two to raise the questions in a legal fashion

Will be great help :thumleft:

I just sent Wayne Duvenage the below email - will post here if I hear something :thumleft:

"Hi again Wayne!
I’m a member on various internet forums and I can tell you that many are still standing strong against e-tolls and intend not paying.

Can we expect any documentation soon from OUTA relating to suggested plan of action, cancellation of e-tag template, request for proof of transactions template, legal implications, summary of our rights etc.?
I know there is some stuff relating to these issues already, but I believe a “e-toll defiance pack” from OUTA would be excellent!

Cheers and thanks for all you have done for South Africa!"



OK, got a reply from Wayne.... below - one in four cars sounds like rejection of e-tolls

Good day XXXXXX

Thanks for your mail and contact.

We will be addressing and communicating the new defiance campaign strategy on line in a few days.  Taking a tad longer than we thought.  

In the meantime, we have exposed, by counting cars coming off at freeway off ramps (at the traffic lights), that only around a quarter of cars have eTags.  The defiance campaign is working and we need to communicate it out there.

Chat soon and watch this space.  John Clarke who is a consultant and joint spokesperson to lighten the load, will probably contact you shortly in this regard

Keep up the great work you are doing.  We need more of you around.

Wayne Duvenage
OUTA Chairperson

Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: KiLRoy on December 10, 2013, 07:05:23 am
Nice one Bundu, keep us informed and assure Wayne of our support please :thumleft:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: punisher on December 10, 2013, 08:32:32 am
Nice one Bundu. Thx

 My own little "snap survey" at the linksfield bridge last week was below 5% visible tags
But I aint arguing :D
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Tr0jan on December 10, 2013, 08:52:31 am
For the first time in 3 years I've put on a small plate on my bike. Its a 6fiddy, fines were never really an issue to be honest as there is no mine shafts on the roads I travel.


What I have noticed, the camera's dont pick up the smaller custom number plate. The OCR is obviously not good enough to cater for different fonts or sizes, or their photo quality not reslient enough.

The fine for this is around R500 and if I get pulled over once a month, at least the money stays within the country!
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 10, 2013, 09:00:54 am
What I have noticed, the camera's dont pick up the smaller custom number plate. The OCR is obviously not good enough to cater for different fonts or sizes, or their photo quality not reslient enough.

Yet people still believe stories that the cameras are good enough to read your licence disc....   :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 10, 2013, 09:07:30 am

The fine for this is around R500 and if I get pulled over once a month, at least the money stays within the country!
and you are supporting local commerce. :thumleft:

My plate is mounted a bit "flatter" than usual but so far no cop has moaned... in fact they are quite surprised when they pull me over to see that I do in fact have a plate! We usually end up talking about bikes... a lot of cops seem to have one or like bikes! :biggrin:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Snafu on December 10, 2013, 04:49:31 pm
http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69655&A=DAM&S=IT%20in%20Government&O=E&E=43202 (http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69655&A=DAM&S=IT%20in%20Government&O=E&E=43202)

Gantries take toll on privacy

An online portal that allows untagged Gauteng freeway users to check their e-toll balances exposes them to privacy violations

An online portal developed by the SA National Roads Agency (Sanral) to allow unregistered road users to check outstanding e-toll fees allows would-be snoops to track motorists' movements with just a vehicle licence number in hand.

ITWeb has established that any vehicle using Gauteng's toll roads can be tracked in real-time by anyone with access to the Sanral Web site – regardless of whether they are registered.

This follows a previous investigation by ITWeb into the e-tolls Web site, which revealed a security flaw that could allow attackers to capture personal information such as identity numbers, car registration details, physical and e-mail addresses, as well as cellphone numbers.


Sanral says the online portal – available under the "Not registered and wish to pay for your e-toll costs?" – was created in order to give untagged highway users an easy way to pay e-tolls.

However, experts argue that the unrestricted nature of the service boils down to an infringement of citizens' constitutional right to privacy.


Industry professionals point out that – even if the majority of road users are unlikely to be victims of violations resulting from the open access to their outstanding e-toll fees – the unguarded nature of the portal does open up the door to stalkers, suspicious spouses and even mischief-makers.

Open access

The Sanral Web site was intended to provide the facility for anyone to pay for an unregistered vehicle's outstanding tolls. Given the licence number of a vehicle, any other user can monitor its e-toll balance. (The site, although intended to disclose only the amount owed by unregistered users, also reveals the outstanding balance of users with e-tags, ITWeb has confirmed.)

The amount is updated at the moment the driver passes a toll gantry, and since gantries are priced uniquely, depending on the length of each road segment, the incremental changes in the total balance can be correlated to deduce the specific gantries the driver has passed.

A trivial script can automatically retrieve the Web page at regular intervals, writing changes to a log and recording a vehicle's every move.

In addition, even though a visit to the said URL will prompt users to register or log in, a simple copy and paste of the same URL back into the browser will allow those without login credentials to use the service as well.

Privacy problem

Sanral has downplayed the probing potential of its unregistered users portal, saying: "Sanral is of the view that the current system provided on [the agency's] Web site, which allows users to access outstanding amounts owed for a seven-day period by entering their vehicle licence plate number, does not constitute a violation of privacy in terms of legislation relating to privacy and protection of data."

However, Novation Consulting director Elizabeth de Stadler says the flaw is "quite ridiculous", as it creates a privacy issue. The information Sanral's portal lays bare will be an infringement of the Protection of Personal Information (PPI) Act when it comes into effect, she notes, adding it also seems to be a contravention of the constitutional right to privacy.

On top of the privacy issue, says De Stadler, there is also a security issue, because information is not being kept reasonably secure. "It's incredibly easy to link a person's number plate to them… It's not rocket science."

There is no conceivable reason why people's movements should be publicly accessible, she adds. Only the registered owner of the vehicle should have access to their information, De Stadler notes.

SensePost CTO Dominic White says while at face value the portal merely reveals how much a motorist owes and not personal information – depending on how much can be garnered from this, it could be a breach of citizens' privacy rights.

Ideally, he says, the information should only be tied to and accessible to each individual motorist. "Ideally, you would want to be in control of your own information. There is potential for shenanigans in this."

White says mass data gathering is another possibility the portal opens up. "You could, for example, write a script for hundreds of thousands of number plates and run it. This could tell you how many vehicles Sanral knows about, or how many number plates they are tracking. It is a hypothesis, but it is possible."

Independent security consultant Paul Cammidge adds creating the script and obtaining a licence plate number so that someone can be tracked is not difficult. "From that perspective, I'd be quite worried."

White notes all vehicles' number plates – including those of police officials and politicians – are open to the public. While White says the usefulness of information any Internet user can glean from the portal is debatable, but data mining, bribery and stalking are some of the uses that could exist.

He says another possibility the portal may open up is users researching ways of cheating or bypassing the system. "If you want to probe [Sanral's] system this would be a useful implementation point. You could perhaps establish how the system reacts to a painted number plate, for example."

Tenuous trust

Swift Consulting CEO Liron Segev says "the whole thing boils down to trust". He notes motorists are already wary of Sanral because they do not trust the debt collection system, or its statements about what e-tolls are funding.

Segev says the fact that the system has access to live data begs the question of whether a public-facing portal should have access to unencrypted real-time information. "There's so much you can do with this."

The information could be used by syndicates to virtually track people's movements for burglary purposes, or for people to track cheating partners, says Segev. He adds once coupled with other data that can be gleaned through social engineering or unofficial databases, it could also lead to scams being perpetrated.

Segev explains the information is sufficiently legitimate to act as a hook for a 419 e-mail. He says the issue may not be deliberate on the part of Sanral, but the site has not been sufficiently thought through.

Cammidge says, while the site does not provide any other personal information, the number plate and movement information still constitutes too much data.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 11, 2013, 07:19:18 am
I'm surprised people are just accepting SANRAL's complete disregard for their privacy.

This issue alone was sufficient to defeat the scheme overseas.

But barely a whimper here.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Kykdaar on December 11, 2013, 07:32:27 am
I'm surprised people are just accepting SANRAL's complete disregard for their privacy.

This issue alone was sufficient to defeat the scheme overseas.

But barely a whimper here.

It will be Sanral themselves that will have to conform whithin the period laid down by the Protection of Personal Information (POPI) Act or they can be held accountable by the public in terms thereof.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 11, 2013, 08:24:51 am
I'm surprised people are just accepting SANRAL's complete disregard for their privacy.

This issue alone was sufficient to defeat the scheme overseas.

But barely a whimper here.

It will be Sanral themselves that will have to conform whithin the period laid down by the Protection of Personal Information (POPI) Act or they can be held accountable by the public in terms thereof.

Why wait till then, your details are exposed now? 

We should be flooding them with demands to rectify the situation before close of business etc IMO.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 11, 2013, 08:26:34 am
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."

So if you don't have an etag and wait longer than 60 days from the "transaction date" (ie driving through a gantry)  before demanding proof of the transaction I wonder what happens?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: trackSHUN on December 11, 2013, 08:30:28 am
WOOOHOOOO _ SANRAL will be able to bill Pres Obama and get paid in USD!!!
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html)

The Sanral e-toll website shows that US president Barack Obama passed 8 gantries while travelling on Gauteng’s highways, racking up a bill of R54.07.

Obama is currently visiting Gauteng as part of an international delegation to pay tribute to former SA president Nelson Mandela.

Obama hailed former president Mandela as the last great liberator of the 20th century on Tuesday as the famous, the powerful, and the poor massed in Soweto for his official memorial.

Obama’s e-toll bill

In January 2013 the White House said that the president had agreed to replace the plates on his limousine to 800 002.

Sanral’s e-toll website allows anyone to check the e-toll balance of any vehicle for which they have the license plate number.

Inserting the number 800002 shows that this vehicle passed 8 e-toll gantries while travelling on Gauteng’s highways, racking up a bill of R 54.07.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Dwerg on December 11, 2013, 08:30:45 am
I'm surprised people are just accepting SANRAL's complete disregard for their privacy.

This issue alone was sufficient to defeat the scheme overseas.

But barely a whimper here.

It will be Sanral themselves that will have to conform whithin the period laid down by the Protection of Personal Information (POPI) Act or they can be held accountable by the public in terms thereof.

Why wait till then, your details are exposed now? 

We should be flooding them with demands to rectify the situation before close of business etc IMO.

Someone posted something the other day about phoning the call centre and getting address and other info by supplying a random number plate. That is way more worrying than the arb info you can get through the payment page
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 11, 2013, 08:42:00 am
Actually thinking about it, its actually just another example of their complete lack of regard for motorists. 

Your rights etc simply don't matter, you must just pay!  >:(

The reason they have this in the website is an attempt to get non etag users to pay without them having to go through the hassle of invoicing them.  So that means they will show any transaction to anyone in the hope they just get some money, without having to do anything else!

And they say this scheme was designed with our interests in mind - bloody joke!  You can see quite clearly that at no point were the interests of motorists considered in the design of this bloody farce!
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: MegaPix on December 11, 2013, 08:45:00 am
WOOOHOOOO _ SANRAL will be able to bill Pres Obama and get paid in USD!!!
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html)

The Sanral e-toll website shows that US president Barack Obama passed 8 gantries while travelling on Gauteng’s highways, racking up a bill of R54.07.

Obama is currently visiting Gauteng as part of an international delegation to pay tribute to former SA president Nelson Mandela.

Obama hailed former president Mandela as the last great liberator of the 20th century on Tuesday as the famous, the powerful, and the poor massed in Soweto for his official memorial.

Obama’s e-toll bill

In January 2013 the White House said that the president had agreed to replace the plates on his limousine to 800 002.

Sanral’s e-toll website allows anyone to check the e-toll balance of any vehicle for which they have the license plate number.

Inserting the number 800002 shows that this vehicle passed 8 e-toll gantries while travelling on Gauteng’s highways, racking up a bill of R 54.07.

F@ck  , do you think the USA can afford that amount?    ??? ??? :imaposer: :imaposer: :lamer:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 11, 2013, 08:45:45 am
If you want to make up false number plates, falsely register cars, steal identities, gather info on your enemies etc etc this really is Christmas!

The syndicates must be working 24hr shifts gathering all this free info - isnt that wonderful?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 11, 2013, 08:47:45 am
Also, if you happen to be having an affair, I wouldn't drive anywhere with your partner in the car  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: MegaPix on December 11, 2013, 08:48:50 am
Also, if you happen to be having an affair, I wouldn't drive anywhere with your partner in the car  :biggrin:

PRAAT JY WAT TANNE HET  :biggrin: :biggrin:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 11, 2013, 09:00:11 am
WOOOHOOOO _ SANRAL will be able to bill Pres Obama and get paid in USD!!!
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html)

The Sanral e-toll website shows that US president Barack Obama passed 8 gantries while travelling on Gauteng’s highways, racking up a bill of R54.07.

When I feed in that number I get this message:

The Licence Plate does not match with the entered Country and Region.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 11, 2013, 09:26:17 am
WOOOHOOOO _ SANRAL will be able to bill Pres Obama and get paid in USD!!!
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html)

The Sanral e-toll website shows that US president Barack Obama passed 8 gantries while travelling on Gauteng’s highways, racking up a bill of R54.07.

When I feed in that number I get this message:

The Licence Plate does not match with the entered Country and Region.

The YooEssAye government probably whispered a whisper and it magically vanished.......
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Dwerg on December 11, 2013, 09:30:46 am
WOOOHOOOO _ SANRAL will be able to bill Pres Obama and get paid in USD!!!
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/93391-obamas-e-toll-bill.html)

The Sanral e-toll website shows that US president Barack Obama passed 8 gantries while travelling on Gauteng’s highways, racking up a bill of R54.07.

When I feed in that number I get this message:

The Licence Plate does not match with the entered Country and Region.

So change to the correct country and region as per the pic?

It is standing on over R300 now
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 11, 2013, 09:34:38 am
So change to the correct country and region as per the pic?

It is standing on over R300 now

That will help....

But I still get:  No records found

Did you do it just now?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Dwerg on December 11, 2013, 09:38:26 am
So change to the correct country and region as per the pic?

It is standing on over R300 now

That will help....

But I still get:  No records found

Did you do it just now?

Maybe an hour ago or so and it was on R355 IRRC
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: mox on December 11, 2013, 09:45:46 am
Strange I got this, maybe they paid?

something is not lekker with this whole system on my results the number of transactions and the value outstanding vary constantly.

Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 11, 2013, 09:56:27 am
Has anyone tried looking up the FOKETOLL numberplates?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 11, 2013, 10:02:08 am
Obama's spies are amongst us! :eek7:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Tr0jan on December 11, 2013, 10:20:41 am
Strange I got this, maybe they paid?

something is not lekker with this whole system on my results the number of transactions and the value outstanding vary constantly.



Was this an hour ago:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Tr0jan on December 11, 2013, 10:22:24 am
Has anyone tried looking up the FOKETOLL numberplates?

Not weking.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: punisher on December 11, 2013, 10:36:53 am
Fuk e_toll
Fuk sanral

Period
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Ceaser on December 11, 2013, 11:11:16 am
I just phoned the Sanral customer care line and spoke to an agent. I said that I am not registered and have not received an invoice via post yet.

She said she could email it to me, I then replied and said that I don't have an email address.  ;)

I then said to her that they have my number plate on their system and should then have access to my postal address as well. She replied and said they don't have access to that information. I will have to go to a Sanral shop/office and get my account that way.

What a joke!! So by the sounds of it they are not linked to the E Natis system
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 11, 2013, 11:17:33 am
the fuckers would have loved it if we all had email  ;D
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 11, 2013, 11:22:07 am
the fuckers would have loved it if we all had email  ;D
Sanral made the following erroneous assumption;

Everyone would register and get an e-tag, because without registration and a TAG they cannot serve the invoice it seems!
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: alanB on December 11, 2013, 11:27:08 am
I just phoned the Sanral customer care line and spoke to an agent. I said that I am not registered and have not received an invoice via post yet.

She said she could email it to me, I then replied and said that I don't have an email address.  ;)

I then said to her that they have my number plate on their system and should then have access to my postal address as well. She replied and said they don't have access to that information. I will have to go to a Sanral shop/office and get my account that way.

What a joke!! So by the sounds of it they are not linked to the E Natis system

This is actually good news IMO.

1) They dont seem to have much of a system in place to trace people without etags.
2) Its probably going to take longer than 60 days to get a bill to you by whatever other means they have.
3) By that time, they may not still have your photo on file, so when you demand proof they wont have it!   Alternatively they are going to have a disc space problem from hell which is just going to get worse and worse!
4) If you choose to take it further and go to say small claims court - sounds like you may have an easy case, similar to the AARTO thing.

Sounds like its going to be a mess!

Mid/End of February is when we can expect the real fun and games to begin it seems.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: mtbbiker on December 11, 2013, 12:15:36 pm
Strange I got this, maybe they paid?

something is not lekker with this whole system on my results the number of transactions and the value outstanding vary constantly.



Was this an hour ago:
Now it is showing R34.26 (5 transactions) WTF ?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: punisher on December 11, 2013, 12:22:47 pm
My amounts all vary ,

This is too funny
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: mox on December 11, 2013, 12:29:30 pm
My amounts all vary ,

This is too funny

http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=140617.0 (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=140617.0)
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 11, 2013, 12:36:14 pm
My amounts all vary ,

This is too funny

Good grounds to successfully query the accounts.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Ganjora on December 12, 2013, 03:42:26 am
you know,  the billing of Obama's limo,  and then the speed with which it was resolved got me thinking...
and that's not always a good thing...

i don't mind subsidising Obama's use of the highway - he made a good speech,
but what about the rest of his cavalcade?
ok,  america's not the financial power it used to be,  so i suppose we can subsidise them too.
and all the other countries???   
OK,  a big day,  Mandela's funeral,  so i suppose we can cover them all too...
but then,  what about the rest of us?   
Why don't we also qualify for a free bee???
oh,  that's right,  we are the 'paying class'...

the speed at which Obama's bill was sorted out also got me thinking...
as it was discovered,  it was resolved.
was Nazir in the office yesterday?   probably not,  so it was done by a 'middle management' type of employee.
it must be pretty easy to hit the delete button on someone's account.
seems like if you've got a mate at SANRAL,  you might also have the 'delete bill' function available,  for a price...
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2013, 07:21:01 am
What about the option that Osama's cavalcade paid for themselves?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Ganjora on December 12, 2013, 07:50:48 am
What about the option that Osama's cavalcade paid for themselves?

 :imaposer:  :imaposer:  :imaposer:
you think?
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 12, 2013, 03:37:37 pm
What about the option that Osama's cavalcade paid for themselves?

I'm sure Obama stopped to get a dompas, I mean day pass, so he could come to Joburg. It's all part of the experience.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: RobC on December 12, 2013, 03:41:40 pm
I think I should try and get my KLR registered in Abhazia... that will confuse the heck out of them.
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Xchallenge on December 12, 2013, 05:02:30 pm
Here is my numberplate:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/965069_10152103691857177_645520889_o.jpg)

 :imaposer:
Title: Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 07:49:42 pm
OK, so Showerhead has given us permission to "Just Ignore it"  ;) ;D