Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => About South Africa... => eTolls - The Resistance => Topic started by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:27:39 pm

Title: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:27:39 pm
OK it was suggested to make a thread where people can post questions that need answers.

Those answers may or may not be forth coming from the knowledge base available but it would be worthwhile keeping track of them

As the answers arrive we will post them here as well.

Please keep your posts relevant as far as possible.

Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:30:01 pm
Can they read my license disc?

Quote from Groweblaar who works in that industry
Quote
I don't have info on the specific system, but from knowledge of the field, I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that no commercial system will be able to recognize the license disk travelling at 120km/h in your window.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:31:30 pm
What powers do the SANRAL officers have?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:36:11 pm
Whats the best way to defeat/confuse the OCR (optical character recognition) reading my number plate?


Again from Groweblaar
Quote
I work for a company that develops custom Computer Vision systems. I haven't worked on ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition), but I can tell you that commercial ANPR algorithms are seriously advanced and can deal with a a high margin of noise and error.

That said, the first step in the multi-stage process, is image segmentation or "localization", which attempts to isolate your plate in the image. I'm not sure how sophisticated this algorithm is in the specific system used by eToll, but something like the van showed earlier would certainly make it work harder and, perhaps, make mistakes:

(http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=140106.0;attach=322165;image)


Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:37:53 pm
What will the process be if I decide not to pay?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:39:26 pm
Can not paying risk my credit record?
Can not paying prevent me from renewing my licence?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:42:39 pm
What powers do the SANRAL officers have?

How should officers that are acting outside their powers best be handled?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:45:58 pm
and probably the most basic, but import question:
What should our strategy be? Avoid the roads? Make number plate recognition difficult? Delay payment? Refuse payment?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:48:42 pm
Does the government really have the constitutional right to deny people access to roads that have been there for generations, which they use to earn a living?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 08:53:15 pm
and probably the most basic, but import question:
What should our strategy be? Avoid the roads? Make number plate recognition difficult? Delay payment? Refuse payment?

Maybe this should become a thread on its own?  Yay or Nay?

My personal strategy is all of the above.  If I can avoid a gantry I will, if not I will delay payment and then probably refuse if I can.

Avoiding the gantries is actually the best option, that way you incur no liability and they get no money!  But its a pain in the butt - today I had to drive from Edenvale to other side of Randburg right through centre of town in rush hour. 
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:53:49 pm
the law says: "the Agency must within 32 days after the alternate user has used an e-road but after expiry of the grace period and unless the user has registered, send an invoice to the said user"

Does that mean that Sanral is in breach of the law if I don't get an invoice within that period and my 'debt' expires?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Bundu on December 12, 2013, 08:56:09 pm
and probably the most basic, but import question:
What should our strategy be? Avoid the roads? Make number plate recognition difficult? Delay payment? Refuse payment?

Maybe this should become a thread on its own?  Yay or Nay?

My personal strategy is all of the above.  If I can avoid a gantry I will, if not I will delay payment and then probably refuse if I can.

Avoiding the gantries is actually the best option, that way you incur no liability and they get no money!  But its a pain in the butt - today I had to drive from Edenvale to other side of Randburg right through centre of town in rush hour. 

maybe separate thread rather  :thumleft:

I don't believe avoiding gantries to be sustainable in numbers and effective enough
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Offshore on December 12, 2013, 09:01:05 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: KiLRoy on December 12, 2013, 09:04:25 pm
Who owes what ito Sanral and related shareholding

How do we make interests and income transparent

Since the roads are now privately owned. What is the SLA they have with road users and when can i demand not to pay if i receive bad service, eg major traffic jams, etc

What are my rights ito privacy of my information and movement. How does this align with the PoPI act?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 12, 2013, 09:04:58 pm
and probably the most basic, but import question:
What should our strategy be? Avoid the roads? Make number plate recognition difficult? Delay payment? Refuse payment?

Maybe this should become a thread on its own?  Yay or Nay?




maybe separate thread rather  :thumleft:


Ok started another thread just for this question http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=140733.0 (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=140733.0)
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 07:58:47 am
How long do SANRAL store the foto's for?

What happens if you demand proof of transaction and they no longer have the proof?
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 10:28:21 am
How do I check on my outstanding balance without registering on the site?

Quote
Just paste this URL link into your browser.  

https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)

But beware SANRAL tries to trick you into registering, so the first response you get is going to ask you to register.  Just repaste the URL and try again, it will eventually switch to a different screen that will allow you to enter your number plate without having to register on their site.

Please note - if you register on their site you will have to agree to their terms and conditions, which may prejudice your rights.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Groenie on December 13, 2013, 10:54:48 am
I spoke to a guy that worked on the initial planning and implementation of their IT system. It was after a couple beers, so I can't remember everything he said.

But, he recons the cameras CAN see your license disc even at 160km/h.
Very high resolution cameras are used- 3 per lane, and they compare their images to resolve the picture.
I can't remember the exact figure, but they store quite a few Peta bytes per day! That's why they only keep the pics for 30 days.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: KiLRoy on December 13, 2013, 10:56:06 am
How do I view the photos in order to verify without registering
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Groenie on December 13, 2013, 10:59:18 am
Log a dispute
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Groenie on December 13, 2013, 11:02:03 am
How do I check on my outstanding balance without registering on the site?

Quote
Just paste this URL link into your browser. 

https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)

But beware SANRAL tries to trick you into registering, so the first response you get is going to ask you to register.  Just repaste the URL and try again, it will eventually switch to a different screen that will allow you to enter your number plate without having to register on their site.

Please note - if you register on their site you will have to agree to their terms and conditions, which may prejudice your rights.


Seems that doesn't work anymore..... Haven't been able to check all day...
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 11:03:21 am
I spoke to a guy that worked on the initial planning and implementation of their IT system. It was after a couple beers, so I can't remember everything he said.

But, he recons the cameras CAN see your license disc even at 160km/h.
Very high resolution cameras are used- 3 per lane, and they compare their images to resolve the picture.
I can't remember the exact figure, but they store quite a few Peta bytes per day! That's why they only keep the pics for 30 days.

Thanks.

We need more info. Given that the experts here seem to doubt it.

I would think there is a difference between the disc being resolvable, and the software actually reading the disc.  A high enough resolution  camera will resolve the disc if its in view (some cars have a dark band in the glass etc which may obstruct the disc), plus its behind glass and that means reflections become an issue.  

So we need to establish whether its a case of the cameras having sufficient resolution vs the software being designed to look for and reliably read the disc.

Any more info on this obviously welcome.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 11:04:55 am
How do I check on my outstanding balance without registering on the site?

Quote
Just paste this URL link into your browser. 

https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx (https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/PayTollFeesUnregisteredUsers.aspx)

But beware SANRAL tries to trick you into registering, so the first response you get is going to ask you to register.  Just repaste the URL and try again, it will eventually switch to a different screen that will allow you to enter your number plate without having to register on their site.

Please note - if you register on their site you will have to agree to their terms and conditions, which may prejudice your rights.


Seems that doesn't work anymore..... Haven't been able to check all day...

Worked for an hour ago, but just checked - it doesnt work now.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Groenie on December 13, 2013, 11:45:47 am
The cameras aren't be able to resolve the disc on-the-fly, but it takes a high enough resolution pic to show the disc. It can be used afterwards to identify the car.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Pistol on December 13, 2013, 11:50:00 am
Either way - cannot see it on the side of a bike behind panniers!!
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: DeeCeeBee on December 13, 2013, 02:36:15 pm
What about moving your disc holder / sticker so that when your windscreen wiper is at rest it obscures the details on the disc?
I doubt they have cameras that can read through metal and rubber....
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: IanC on December 13, 2013, 03:00:20 pm
If you mount your number plate upside down will the OCR still be able to read it, or will that picture need to be manually rotated to read it? Is it illegal to mount your number plate upside down.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: alanB on December 13, 2013, 03:03:55 pm
More good info from Growweblaar  :thumleft:

Quote
I've done a little research. It seems the system is supplied by Kapsch TrafficCom of Austria and, looking at the two ANPR systems they supply, it must be the VR-2 system (data-sheet here).

It's based on a digital colour camera with resolution of 1392x1032. The other (VDR) system uses Infrared (IR), but it looks like this one does not. The blue glow around the gantries is most probably additional illumination to improve image intensity. The use of blue might be because of its higher energy, and the camera can be fitted with a filter to respond mainly to blue. Perhaps the fact that the GP plates have blue lettering contributes to the equation.

Doesnt look the system has enough resolution to read a license disc.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: DeepBass9 on December 13, 2013, 03:13:28 pm
The answer may be to subtly alter your number plate so it is not machine readable. I'm not sure if they will manually check unreadable images. But something like this which it to prevent robots from logging onto webpages may work (the image below is from SANRALS site actually!)

Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: IceCreamMan on January 16, 2014, 01:13:25 pm
Does the government really have the constitutional right to deny people access to roads that have been there for generations, which they use to earn a living?

yes, tolls have been around since the 80's as I can tell.

until the etolls in Gauteng are tested in the CC they are constitutional so to speak.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: IceCreamMan on January 16, 2014, 01:13:49 pm
Can not paying risk my credit record?
Can not paying prevent me from renewing my licence?

Yes
No,not yet
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: IceCreamMan on January 16, 2014, 01:16:27 pm
the law says: "the Agency must within 32 days after the alternate user has used an e-road but after expiry of the grace period and unless the user has registered, send an invoice to the said user"

Does that mean that Sanral is in breach of the law if I don't get an invoice within that period and my 'debt' expires?

No, yr debt does not expire.

SANRAL have 39 days to issue an invoice, this 39 days does not pertain to the time that you have to receive the invoice. even if you never receive it you are still liable for the payment...

secondly, if SANRAL does not issue an ivoice it is not clear whether you are excused.
Title: Re: Specific Questions that need answers
Post by: Fudmucker on December 24, 2016, 04:11:22 am
As a Public Servant, I must submit e-toll statements for the vehicle that I use to travel for work purposes,
or subsidise the government by paying (not paying) out of my own pocket.

On a recent private trip on N4, I presented my garage card to pay the N4 toll and requested a receipt, which I received from the attendant.
When I returned home, I received a statement from e-toll indicating that for the same trip, my e-tag had ALSO been debited for the N4 Toll.
Who should I approach for refund - TRAC?