Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => BMW 1200 LC => Topic started by: OomD on September 16, 2014, 08:36:56 am

Title: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: OomD on September 16, 2014, 08:36:56 am
Yesterday I rode over some bumpy sections, causing the bike to surge forward every time my hand rotated the twistgrip even slightly. On my older GS (and any bike with a cable throttle, really) the freeplay in the twistgrip actually prevents you from accelerating or revving accidentally while navigating rough terrain.

It's not nice having to force myself to keep the throttle closed. I realise that muscle memory will eventually eliminate this problem, but every time I ride another bike and then my LC again it's back.

Does anyone know of there is a way to set the ECU, or to adjust something on the twistgrip to allow for a few degrees of freeplay? Mine has none at all! Or, is it supposed to have some freeplay and mine just doesn't?
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Draadwerk on September 16, 2014, 08:50:39 am
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Noneking on September 16, 2014, 09:02:31 am
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie

Nee man!! Dis soos om vir 'n paaldanser 'n jean, trui en tekkies te laat aantrek........ :pot:
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: OomD on September 16, 2014, 09:48:20 am
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie
Ja kan werk... maar detune dit nie ook die enjin so bietjie nie? En maak die traction control en ABS bietjie meer aggresief. Ek hou van die krag as ek die oor draai, wil nie dit verloor nie. Sal in elk geval probeer, dankie.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Lord Knormoer on September 16, 2014, 09:55:03 am
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie

+1

That would be my advice too if you struggle with the throttle, in fact if you attend BMW training they reccomend this for hill climbs. I would just switch the TC off when using Rain mode offroad to get the benefit of wheelspin.

Alternatively, ride in Dynamic Mode with TC switched off all the time to get used to the throttle response :thumleft:
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Jacobsroodt on September 16, 2014, 09:58:32 am
I will have Accelerator Modules available for the LC in two weeks time. The problem is a common one caused by lean mixtures prescribed by EU emission standards. The accelerator module improves the air/fuel ratio in the acceleration loop only and greatly improves the situation.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Lord Knormoer on September 16, 2014, 10:02:22 am
I will have Accelerator Modules available for the LC in two weeks time. The problem is a common one caused by lean mixtures prescribed by EU emission standards. The accelerator module improves the air/fuel ratio in the acceleration loop only and greatly improves the situation.

I doubt this will address the specific challenge. The LC throttle response is very direct and takes some getting used too. I also question the good sense of fitting this to bikes under warranty which at present includes all K50/K51's on the road.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Jacobsroodt on September 16, 2014, 10:49:46 am
The Accelerator Module is a plug and play unit and does not affect the warranty at all. I have fitted an AM on my bike since new and informed BMW of this.

The direct throttle is an issue on most new bikes. A too lean mixture causes a too wide throttle opening to compensate, resulting in a sudden surge. Read the threads on the F800GS throttle response. The AM has done wonders.

For a technical explanation of the on/off effect - :

The main computer or ECU can work in 2 modes. The first mode is called "open-loop" and the second one is called "closed-loop". In both modes, the ECU needs to have some information so it can calculate the amount of fuel that needs to be injected.
The closed-loop feature of the ECU system is rather simple. This uses a Lambda sensor in the exhaust to read whether there is an excess or lack of oxygen in the exhaust. It goes rich – lean – rich – lean, +- every 2 seconds. The ECU uses the sensor output to either lean or richen the fuel injected (that is reduce or extend the pulse width towards the injectors) with the result that the sensor's output alternates from 0.2 to 0.8 volts and back again.
Although rich – lean means "a little rich" and "a little lean" it produces a stoichiermetricly correct air/fuel ratio (approx. 14.7 to 1). This cycling of the fuel mixture to ensure the stoichiermetricly correct ratio is good for the operation of the catalytic convertor, and generally helps with fuel economy, but not much for smooth operation or "feel".

The open-loop mode is needed since the Lambda sensor is not quick enough in response when you are e.g. accelerating with your bike.
So the fuel map contains the info the control software of the ECU uses to tell the injectors how long to open, and the ignition circuit when to fire the spark plugs. P.s. The ECU itself is just a little, specialised control system computer, totally unaware that it is making a motorcycle go vroom vroom. The map is different for each bike model – capacity, state of tune, etc. The same ECU can be used, with the appropriate map, in any bike (or car, truck, boat, etc) designed to work with it.

The ACCELERATOR module™ is an answer to the "lean fuel mixtures" problems. It is an add-on product that adjust the ratio of the fuel mixture to the optimum ratio mainly during acceleration. So a richer fuel mixture helps to accelerate the engine. Also it will helps to start the bike better.

The nett result is that it creates a smoother power delivery throughout the whole rpm range (already clearly visible at much lower rpm's compared to the standard configuration, where much less an "on-off" feeling prevails). The engine picks up faster and runs smoother. A clear improvement of a faster throttle response is immediately observed. Also, the KFR (Konstant Fahr Ruckeln) on the BMW boxer engines will in most cases disappear, as this is also a result of using a too lean fuel mixture.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Lord Knormoer on September 16, 2014, 11:01:42 am
Sorry but I have read this before and still do not see how it will address the OP's problem. Maybe Donford could fit one to a demo bike so we can experience it?

There is quit a difference between throttle response on the F800 vs the K50/K51 range.

I personally like the very direct and very responsive e-throttle on the K50 :thumleft:
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: PieterV on September 16, 2014, 11:03:44 am
Oom, Rest one or two fingers on the clutch lever, and the outer side of your palm where the hand protector meets the throttle - this hand position enables accurate throttle control
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: OomD on September 16, 2014, 11:49:13 am
Oom, Rest one or two fingers on the clutch lever, and the outer side of your palm where the hand protector meets the throttle - this hand position enables accurate throttle control
I gather you mean the brake lever? But yes, I have even tried holding onto the throttle quite lightly. Look I have not problem with the direct throttle response, in fact I love it! It is just the first few degrees of throttle movement I would prefer no responce, allowing for some movement in my wrist when crossing rough terrain.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: OomD on September 16, 2014, 11:55:38 am
The Accelerator Module is a plug and play unit and does not affect the warranty at all. I have fitted an AM on my bike since new and informed BMW of this.

The direct throttle is an issue on most new bikes. A too lean mixture causes a too wide throttle opening to compensate, resulting in a sudden surge. Read the threads on the F800GS throttle response. The AM has done wonders.

For a technical explanation of the on/off effect - :

The main computer or ECU can work in 2 modes. The first mode is called "open-loop" and the second one is called "closed-loop". In both modes, the ECU needs to have some information so it can calculate the amount of fuel that needs to be injected.
The closed-loop feature of the ECU system is rather simple. This uses a Lambda sensor in the exhaust to read whether there is an excess or lack of oxygen in the exhaust. It goes rich – lean – rich – lean, +- every 2 seconds. The ECU uses the sensor output to either lean or richen the fuel injected (that is reduce or extend the pulse width towards the injectors) with the result that the sensor's output alternates from 0.2 to 0.8 volts and back again.
Although rich – lean means "a little rich" and "a little lean" it produces a stoichiermetricly correct air/fuel ratio (approx. 14.7 to 1). This cycling of the fuel mixture to ensure the stoichiermetricly correct ratio is good for the operation of the catalytic convertor, and generally helps with fuel economy, but not much for smooth operation or "feel".

The open-loop mode is needed since the Lambda sensor is not quick enough in response when you are e.g. accelerating with your bike.
So the fuel map contains the info the control software of the ECU uses to tell the injectors how long to open, and the ignition circuit when to fire the spark plugs. P.s. The ECU itself is just a little, specialised control system computer, totally unaware that it is making a motorcycle go vroom vroom. The map is different for each bike model – capacity, state of tune, etc. The same ECU can be used, with the appropriate map, in any bike (or car, truck, boat, etc) designed to work with it.

The ACCELERATOR module™ is an answer to the "lean fuel mixtures" problems. It is an add-on product that adjust the ratio of the fuel mixture to the optimum ratio mainly during acceleration. So a richer fuel mixture helps to accelerate the engine. Also it will helps to start the bike better.

The nett result is that it creates a smoother power delivery throughout the whole rpm range (already clearly visible at much lower rpm's compared to the standard configuration, where much less an "on-off" feeling prevails). The engine picks up faster and runs smoother. A clear improvement of a faster throttle response is immediately observed. Also, the KFR (Konstant Fahr Ruckeln) on the BMW boxer engines will in most cases disappear, as this is also a result of using a too lean fuel mixture.
The way I see it your AM is just an additional resistor that goes in line with the air inlet's  temperature sensor, fooling the ECU into thinking the air is hotter than it actually is, thereby adjusting the fuel ratio to make it richer? Am I correct?

On my prevous '08 GS I soldered a resistor in myself, and it did help indeed. But I find no reason to add it to the LC. Additionally, like LK says, this won't resolve the issue I am having.

But thanks anyway! I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: PieterV on September 16, 2014, 12:20:42 pm
Oom, Rest one or two fingers on the clutch lever, and the outer side of your palm where the hand protector meets the throttle - this hand position enables accurate throttle control
I gather you mean the brake lever? But yes, I have even tried holding onto the throttle quite lightly. Look I have not problem with the direct throttle response, in fact I love it! It is just the first few degrees of throttle movement I would prefer no responce, allowing for some movement in my wrist when crossing rough terrain.

Yes, sorry.  The throttle works great for me as it is - had a 2007 GS before.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Jacobsroodt on September 16, 2014, 12:38:26 pm
The Accelerator Module is a plug and play unit and does not affect the warranty at all. I have fitted an AM on my bike since new and informed BMW of this.

The direct throttle is an issue on most new bikes. A too lean mixture causes a too wide throttle opening to compensate, resulting in a sudden surge. Read the threads on the F800GS throttle response. The AM has done wonders.

For a technical explanation of the on/off effect - :

The main computer or ECU can work in 2 modes. The first mode is called "open-loop" and the second one is called "closed-loop". In both modes, the ECU needs to have some information so it can calculate the amount of fuel that needs to be injected.
The closed-loop feature of the ECU system is rather simple. This uses a Lambda sensor in the exhaust to read whether there is an excess or lack of oxygen in the exhaust. It goes rich – lean – rich – lean, +- every 2 seconds. The ECU uses the sensor output to either lean or richen the fuel injected (that is reduce or extend the pulse width towards the injectors) with the result that the sensor's output alternates from 0.2 to 0.8 volts and back again.
Although rich – lean means "a little rich" and "a little lean" it produces a stoichiermetricly correct air/fuel ratio (approx. 14.7 to 1). This cycling of the fuel mixture to ensure the stoichiermetricly correct ratio is good for the operation of the catalytic convertor, and generally helps with fuel economy, but not much for smooth operation or "feel".

The open-loop mode is needed since the Lambda sensor is not quick enough in response when you are e.g. accelerating with your bike.
So the fuel map contains the info the control software of the ECU uses to tell the injectors how long to open, and the ignition circuit when to fire the spark plugs. P.s. The ECU itself is just a little, specialised control system computer, totally unaware that it is making a motorcycle go vroom vroom. The map is different for each bike model – capacity, state of tune, etc. The same ECU can be used, with the appropriate map, in any bike (or car, truck, boat, etc) designed to work with it.

The ACCELERATOR module™ is an answer to the "lean fuel mixtures" problems. It is an add-on product that adjust the ratio of the fuel mixture to the optimum ratio mainly during acceleration. So a richer fuel mixture helps to accelerate the engine. Also it will helps to start the bike better.

The nett result is that it creates a smoother power delivery throughout the whole rpm range (already clearly visible at much lower rpm's compared to the standard configuration, where much less an "on-off" feeling prevails). The engine picks up faster and runs smoother. A clear improvement of a faster throttle response is immediately observed. Also, the KFR (Konstant Fahr Ruckeln) on the BMW boxer engines will in most cases disappear, as this is also a result of using a too lean fuel mixture.
The way I see it your AM is just an additional resistor that goes in line with the air inlet's  temperature sensor, fooling the ECU into thinking the air is hotter than it actually is, thereby adjusting the fuel ratio to make it richer? Am I correct?

On my prevous '08 GS I soldered a resistor in myself, and it did help indeed. But I find no reason to add it to the LC. Additionally, like LK says, this won't resolve the issue I am having.

But thanks anyway! I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.

You are right. The AM plugs inline to alter the signal coming from the temperature sensor it tells the ECU that it is +-20°C colder than the ambient temperature, with a taper off towards 0°C.

Not just one resistor is used, but in the makers own words "It is a combination of different electronics parts that define a certain type of module. By playing with these values, I can create a specific module for a specific motorbike".

I specifically asked whether the AM is still necessary for the new R1200 LC as it now has different riding programs. The feedback was that as many AMs are sold for the LC than for the old R1200's, for the same reasons. On grounds of that I am bringing in the AM4 - specifically made for the LC - to test it in the local market. Too lean mixtures for certain circumstances is still a problem, and will remain one with even stricter EU regulations.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Lord Knormoer on September 16, 2014, 12:39:28 pm
I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.

I find this curious. I asked BMW to wire an f800 for spots so I could plug in an aftermarket set and they indicated that plugging anything into the wiring that's not certified will void the warranty.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: OomD on September 16, 2014, 01:14:59 pm
I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.

I find this curious. I asked BMW to wire an f800 for spots so I could plug in an aftermarket set and they indicated that plugging anything into the wiring that's not certified will void the warranty.

Yep, I also had that conversation with Bavarian when I bought my LC, as I want to fit my own spots. They didn't like me going directly to the battery, but agreed that I can plug them onto the accessory connector (the one in the harness, not the Hella plug next to the instrument cluster) as that is exactly what the connector is intended for... accessories! And it is also electronically fused (by the ECU) and controlled by the ignition. Finally, there's no tampering of the harness so Bavarian were happy that I follow that path, while not voiding the warrantee.

I fact I think that is how most (if not all) after market spots are connected, but I might be wrong.

The AM is, off course, a different story as you are not connecting onto a protected outlet, but rather interfering with the bike's setup. However, being a plug-in module you could easily remove it again at service time, if you are so inclined. Personally I would seek the dealer's approval first.
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: K-9 on September 16, 2014, 03:31:04 pm
Yesterday I rode over some bumpy sections, causing the bike to surge forward every time my hand rotated the twistgrip even slightly. On my older GS (and any bike with a cable throttle, really) the freeplay in the twistgrip actually prevents you from accelerating or revving accidentally while navigating rough terrain.

It's not nice having to force myself to keep the throttle closed. I realise that muscle memory will eventually eliminate this problem, but every time I ride another bike and then my LC again it's back.

Does anyone know of there is a way to set the ECU, or to adjust something on the twistgrip to allow for a few degrees of freeplay? Mine has none at all! Or, is it supposed to have some freeplay and mine just doesn't?

i have had one instance of something like this on a road, the bumps in the tar where small but continuous, like big corrugations - slight but continuous. 

i could very feel sight throttle changes (very slight surging) and i could see my elbow bouncing slightly, i was sitting.  i ride a GSA LC and was on "dynamic", i changed to "road" and it stopped immediately, the "bouncing" continued for about 10kms on the freeway, i also put the bike onto soft and it helped.

i have done well over 16 000kms and only had this once in that time and never off road.   this was very light you could hardly call it surging??

what setting were you on??
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: OomD on September 16, 2014, 05:24:13 pm
I was on Dynamic. Riding home today I tried rain mode and it indeed dampened the throttle response enough over the rough (tar) section. Then I went again, using road mode and it was still great. Just to satisfy my mind I went again on dynamic mode, and the bumpy road caused some jerkyness with my riding style again.

I realize, off course, that this is an issue with my riding style and not with the bike. I think I'll stick to road mode, and keep dynamic mode for when the hooligan in me wants to rear it's head. Which is happening more often with this bike, I must admit :-D
Title: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Lord Knormoer on September 16, 2014, 05:28:40 pm
I was on Dynamic. Riding home today I tried rain mode and it indeed dampened the throttle response enough over the rough (tar) section. Then I went again, using road mode and it was still great. Just to satisfy my mind I went again on dynamic mode, and the bumpy road caused some jerkyness with my riding style again.

I realize, off course, that this is an issue with my riding style and not with the bike. I think I'll stick to road mode, and keep dynamic mode for when the hooligan in me wants to rear it's head. Which is happening more often with this bike, I must admit :-D

All the modes are computer optimized with the exception of Dynamic that offers direct response.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/16/uva8a2eb.jpg)
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Nox on September 16, 2014, 06:58:33 pm
Keep your index finger on clutch and front brake, that will stabilize you, or do a country trax course! :ricky:
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: TheBear on September 22, 2014, 01:23:31 pm
I will have Accelerator Modules available for the LC in two weeks time. The problem is a common one caused by lean mixtures prescribed by EU emission standards. The accelerator module improves the air/fuel ratio in the acceleration loop only and greatly improves the situation.

Does the AM not quicken throttle response?
Title: Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
Post by: Jacobsroodt on September 22, 2014, 01:42:04 pm
Two aspects are important:
1. The on / off nature of the throttle
2. Usable revs and smooth takeup

1. EU regulated lean mixtures causes an on / off throttle response. In slow technical riding touching the throttle makes the bike jump forward, causing the rider to close the throttle, the need for power again makes the bike jump forward again, and so it goes, with the bike rocking to and fro - not good for technical situations. The AM smooths out this On / Off tendency. It also curbs the sensation of the bike "flooding" on opening the throttle wide at low rpm - a typical tendency of e.g. the KTM 690 or BMW F800GS.
2. The AM increases usable RPM, with more torque available at the lower end of the RPM range than before. On some bikes riders report an 1500rpm increase of usable rpm at the bottom end of the rev range.