Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Riding: Plan, Report and Racing => Racing Section => Topic started by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 18, 2015, 05:49:40 pm

Title: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 18, 2015, 05:49:40 pm
Hi
Ok, for some time I've been thinking on how to reduce the cost of Rally bike preparation.  We here at Rockfox are developing a few items for ourselves and are also looking at new product lines.

The current two products are CAP-Trip unit and a Roadbook.  (F@kken is/are in die Ingels!!!)

Herewith the first draft of the CAP-Trip unit.

** SNIP **
ROCKFOX PROJECTS RALLYE CAP-TRIP PROJECT

Overview.
Design and manufacture an ALL IN ONE rallye CAP repeater and Trip meter unit to be used on bikes, Quads and cars.  The unit must fit the existing mounting holes and must be fully IP67 compliant.  The unit must be an ‘All in One’ unit with user selectable functionality.  The rider can install two units and configure one as a Trip and the other as a CAP unit.  In the event of a unit failure the remaining unit can be quickly re-configured to execute both CAP and Trip functions with a shortcut option between the options.  (See detailed function diagram below – to follow --)

Specification.
The unit must have the following basic functions:

CAP heading from Magnetic north.
This feature will use a tilt compensated magnetic compass with built in buffering for smooth and stable reading.

Distance recording with only full reset option
This will be the total distance traveled for the stage.  This feature can not be adjusted and will be used for fuel range etc.  This option will only have a ‘Reset to Zero’ option. It will thus show the total distance from reset (including detours etc)
 
Trip 1 with QuickAdjust (QA) option
This option will be used with the TOTAL distance as per Roadbook.  The QA option will allow the rider to adjust any digit up or down to ‘sync’ the unit in case of a detour or navigation error.

Trip 2 with QuickAdjust (QA) and Quick Zero ( QZ) options
This option will be used with the ITEM distance as per Roadbook.  The QZ option will be used by riders that use the Item distance more than the Total distance.  The QA option will allow the rider to adjust any digit up or down to ‘sync’ the unit in case of a detour or navigation error.  We do not think that the QA option will be used much as the rider that use the Item distance will just use QZ once back on track or temporary use the Total distance up to the next Item.

Speed
Indicate the current speed from solid state pickup on front wheel.

Time
Indicate the current time. 

User interface (Less is More)
Due to all the features that must be packaged in such a small unit the system will have 5 3mm LED’s above the display to assist the rider to quickly determine the current selected mode.  The function of the three handlebar buttons can be set to suit the rider preference.  A Quick Select (QS) option will allow the rider to select between any number of options in any order.  This will ensure the least amount of button presses to access the major functions.  Eg. Up/Down will select distance/CAP only. A long press on Up/Dn will scroll through all options eg. To temporary show the speed in a restricted section.  A short press will re-select the QS option.  This option will allow the rider to use ONE unit only without reducing the navigation control. CAP heading is for instance only ‘valid’ for the first 100 odd meters after the ‘Tulip’ on the Roadbook.

GPS Waypoints (future feature)
If a GPS antenna is attached the system will allow the rider to add waypoints on the system if allowed.  The option to store the track in a GPX file as well as other GPS related options.

Testing and durability
The system will be subjected to a rigorous vibration and environmental test during development to ensure absolute lowest failure rate.  All possible design measures will be employed to ensure an unstressed unit for additional durability.

Availability warrantee and cost
Final proof of concept and preliminary testing must be completed by 31 January 2015.  The first system(s) must be ready for user evaluation by 28 Feb 2015.  First production units must be available 1st April 2015.  The first 10 units will carry a full replacement warrantee for one year. Future warrantee will cover factory defects only.  In order to reduce the setup cost for Rallying the unit without GPS antenna/features must retail for below R2 000.00 Vat incl.

Please feel free to contact us with any queries and comments.

The Rockfox Team
Adie
079 5243884
** SNAP **
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: JustBendIt on January 18, 2015, 06:32:07 pm
If this thing does everything you say I will take 1 for sure - and will be happy to test it to - this looks like just what I am looking for - proudly South African

Put my name down please
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 18, 2015, 06:35:18 pm
very interested!  I am mostly there, but if your unit is all integrated on one board, then I would take it.  How will you regulate the 12V from the bike? Directly inside the unit on the main board? ... or is that a trade secret  ;D ?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: XTFREAK on January 18, 2015, 08:26:38 pm
Sub. Interested.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Hondsekierie on January 18, 2015, 09:55:38 pm
Subscribe :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 18, 2015, 11:21:33 pm
Hi

sommer so bietjie ekstra info.

@dv, geen 'trade secrets' behalwe die programering.  :biggrin: Met my Dakkie het ek baie probleme met die regulator gehad,  ek het later gatvol geraak en 'n voltmeter opgesit.  Die 'charge volts' het tot so hoog as 18V gegaan. die 650Gs is lief om sy batery droog te kook as gevolg van 'over voltage'.  In my industriele stelsels gebruik ek twee regulators 12V en dan 5V.  Ek kan dan 'n 6 karakter 7 segment display met 168 high bright LED's SAAM laat brand sonder 'n heat sink.  Vir die projek sal ek dieselfde doen maar die 'deksel' onder aan die kassie is van aluminium en sal 'n heatsink vorm.  Ek gebruik (ook) die Arduino chip (Atmega 328) en ets my eie borde vir lae volume projekte.

Ons moet gesels, jy kan 'n eenheid kry vir 'debugging' in ruil vir die LCD display verskaffer en program interface.  Ek is al moeg gesoek na 'n plaaslike verskaffer vir my toetse. Watter grootte syfers is joune (20mm?)

Ok, here we go. I will 'sponsor' 4 units for debugging and evaluation.  The trick will be how to select the guinipigs?

Laastens, die kassie is 'n 3D print model wat ons dan in een of ander 'indestructable' resin gaan giet.  Die prototipe handvatsel eenheid word hierdie week gedoen.

Adie
P.S. Miskien moet ons Zille Villers een aand hier by die plot bymekaar kom om gedagtes te ruil.  Ek is altyd oop vir idees, en julle 'score' 'n R2000.00 produk  >:D


Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 19, 2015, 07:17:06 am
kyk bietjie hier ;) http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=137394.msg3058793#msg3058793 (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=137394.msg3058793#msg3058793)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: bonova on January 19, 2015, 09:51:08 am
Subscribed!
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: markdiver on January 19, 2015, 05:03:20 pm
Very cool and very interested.  :thumleft:  JUst one question about the 5 LED lights.  Not sure how that could benefit as quick mode detection as it seems one would have to remember which is which, and then have to scroll through anyway  ??? 
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Bill the Bong on January 19, 2015, 06:40:38 pm
CAP must give True North for rallying, I suppose that's something you can program?

I actually think that you are fitting too many functions.  I run 1 unit with the total stage distance only.  On the other unit, I use CAP and speed.  In terms of time, I only care to get to Start of Special on time.  After that, not again.  As far as total tank distance etc, I just don't care, if you run out of fuel, its game over.  I would like as few essentials as possible for the R2000, which is an awesome price.  My suggestion is to start with a more basic model, which is what we want at this point.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 19, 2015, 08:54:39 pm
** Snip **
I actually think that you are fitting too many functions.  I run 1 unit with the total stage distance only.  On the other unit, I use CAP and speed.  In terms of time, I only care to get to Start of Special on time.  After that, not again.  As far as total tank distance etc, I just don't care, if you run out of fuel, its game over.  I would like as few essentials as possible for the R2000, which is an awesome price.  My suggestion is to start with a more basic model, which is what we want at this point.
** Snap **

Actually, except for the 'extra' Trip distance it is just the TWO ICO products in one. (Redundency) That is the beauty of electronics and programming.  To keep the cost down we will to the calcs on the heading as the GPS alone is around R 600.00.

A
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Bill the Bong on January 20, 2015, 11:02:52 am
Next comment (I hope you see this as positive input and not an attempt to piss on your parade):  The CAP need to be able to be visible for extended periods, not just 100 m after the tulip (and how will it know there was a tulip).  You may get a CAP only for an off-piste section that could last many kilometres.  If there is a dune section, you typically get a CAP only to cross it.  At the end of the section there is usually a recognisable feature (post, tyres, drum, dam)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Bill the Bong on January 20, 2015, 11:15:49 am
** Snip **
.  To keep the cost down we will to the calcs on the heading as the GPS alone is around R 600.00.

A


I think this approach will limit you sales to South Africa as you will have to program a mean magnetic variation.  Lets look at the approximate route:

Kimberly -21 degrees
Border crossing point RSA / Bot -16
Border crossing Bot / Nam -13
Luderitz -17
Hondeklipbaai -22
Cape Town -24 degrees

There is an 11 degrees difference that will be problematic to compensate, you will have to give the rider a card to stick next to the display to do the mental calculations.  This used to be the case in the old days in aircraft with deviation and declination showed.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 20, 2015, 03:17:04 pm
** snip **
I hope you see this as positive input and not an attempt to piss on your parade
** Snap **

THANKS, no relax, I thrive on criticism as it only make the product better.  I am a mechanical engineer and self taught programmer/electronics hobbyist also, never done navigation, so ALL INPUT will be evaluated.

Compass heading. 
We initially designed the system with a GPS for compass bearing.  Although I knew about the 3 North Poles I opted for the Magnetic compass to make the unit more affordable and compact. (did not do much research on the diff. between the two poles and thus assumed  (the mother of all fuckups) that it will be a 'relative' constant deviation.  It is actually not a REAL issue other than cost (R175 vs R650), so the cost will rise by about R500 (Unit and plugs).  I will still aim to produce it as cost effective as possible.

With respect to the 5 LEDs they are selectable during user setup and can be swithced off in Nav mode. 

** Snip**
The CAP need to be able to be visible for extended periods, not just 100 m after the tulip (and how will it know there was a tulip).  You may get a CAP only for an off-piste section that could last many kilometres.  If there is a dune section, you typically get a CAP only to cross it.  At the end of the section there is usually a recognisable feature (post, tyres, drum, dam)
** Snap **

As per your use it would still be usable as a single unit for CAP and distance only.  For your type of use the Quick Select buttons will be between CAP and Distance only.  You will for example pass the point (ITEM) on the roadbook and compare Tulip (Picture) to the real world. If there are a CAP heading you will press the QS button to select CAP heading.  If the CAP is valid for a short period only you will press QS again to display Distance as soon as the CAP use expire.  If the CAP is valid for a long stretch (crossing a pan) you will look at the Roadbook distance and Real features (Fence/Mountain etc) to get a 'general' bearing and estimate the distance.  At this point your priority would be determined by the distance.  If the next Item on the roadbook is say 5km away and your 'feature' will be visible for a few km you can select distance.  A single press on the QV (Quick View) will momentarily display the CAP to confirm your heading and maybe look for a new 'feature'.

REMEMBER. Two units (CAP and TRIP) is the ultimate solution but we want to make the startup cost lower and thus one unit with Quick options.

Shoot, I have braced myself. >:D

Adie




Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 20, 2015, 03:22:01 pm
Or, you could just add(for extra cost) a RS232 to TTL converter and read the NMEA sentences from the GPS directly on the micro controller, use the coordinate at the point to work out the deviation and use that constant as offset on the z-axis compass you are using.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Motties on January 20, 2015, 03:25:41 pm
Nice one! Sub.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Soundboi on January 20, 2015, 04:21:51 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Bill the Bong on January 20, 2015, 04:33:54 pm
** snip **
I hope you see this as positive input and not an attempt to piss on your parade
** Snap **

THANKS, no relax, I thrive on criticism as it only make the product better.  I am a mechanical engineer and self taught programmer/electronics hobbyist also, never done navigation, so ALL INPUT will be evaluated.

Compass heading.  
We initially designed the system with a GPS for compass bearing.  Although I knew about the 3 North Poles I opted for the Magnetic compass to make the unit more affordable and compact. (did not do much research on the diff. between the two poles and thus assumed  (the mother of all fuckups) that it will be a 'relative' constant deviation.  It is actually not a REAL issue other than cost (R175 vs R650), so the cost will rise by about R500 (Unit and plugs).  I will still aim to produce it as cost effective as possible.

With respect to the 5 LEDs they are selectable during user setup and can be swithced off in Nav mode.  

** Snip**
The CAP need to be able to be visible for extended periods, not just 100 m after the tulip (and how will it know there was a tulip).  You may get a CAP only for an off-piste section that could last many kilometres.  If there is a dune section, you typically get a CAP only to cross it.  At the end of the section there is usually a recognisable feature (post, tyres, drum, dam)
** Snap **

As per your use it would still be usable as a single unit for CAP and distance only.  For your type of use the Quick Select buttons will be between CAP and Distance only.  You will for example pass the point (ITEM) on the roadbook and compare Tulip (Picture) to the real world. If there are a CAP heading you will press the QS button to select CAP heading.  If the CAP is valid for a short period only you will press QS again to display Distance as soon as the CAP use expire.  If the CAP is valid for a long stretch (crossing a pan) you will look at the Roadbook distance and Real features (Fence/Mountain etc) to get a 'general' bearing and estimate the distance.  At this point your priority would be determined by the distance.  If the next Item on the roadbook is say 5km away and your 'feature' will be visible for a few km you can select distance.  A single press on the QV (Quick View) will momentarily display the CAP to confirm your heading and maybe look for a new 'feature'.

REMEMBER. Two units (CAP and TRIP) is the ultimate solution but we want to make the startup cost lower and thus one unit with Quick options.

Shoot, I have braced myself. >:D

Adie

\

Nice, if you go for the GPS unit, I'd suggest that you run it similar to the RMS ICO Rallye CAP http://www.rallymanagementservices.com/products/ico-rallye-cap, (http://www.rallymanagementservices.com/products/ico-rallye-cap,) which doesn't use the wheel sensor at all, but gets the GPS  to provide the distance.  This removes the potential failure point of a cable, a sensor and a magnet.  The installation becomes instantly more user friendly to install and more compact.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 20, 2015, 04:58:29 pm
** SNIP **
Or, you could just add(for extra cost) a RS232 to TTL converter and read the NMEA sentences from the GPS directly on the micro controller, use the coordinate at the point to work out the deviation and use that constant as offset on the z-axis compass you are using.
** SNAP **

This got me thinking  :laughing4:
1. GPS  A GPS does not seems to have a Compass. It requires the unit to move in order to convert the co-oords of the two positions into the 'Bearing' (Tested the theory with a Garmin unit.)

** Start **
$GPRMC,161229.487,A,3723.2475,N,12158.3416,W,0.13,309.62,120598,,,A*10
Message ID $GPRMC  RMC protocol header
UTC Time 161229.487  hhmmss.sss
Status   A    A=data valid or V=data not valid
Latitude  3723.2475  ddmm.mmmm
Longitude 12158.3416  dddmm.mmmm
Speed Over Ground 0.13 knots  
Course Over Ground  309.62 degrees  True  <---------------**
** end **

2. A Cellphone got a Magnetic Compass AND a GPS.  It can thus give both headings.

NOW I remember. I chose the Mag Compass because it will give the heading even when stationary whereas the GPS must move at least 3meters or pick up different co-oords to do the 'Course' and then calc the True North.

In order to get FULL functionality We will need both the Mag compass (Stationary heading) and the GPS (True North when moving)  Fortunately it will only require 2 lines of code to select the heading type between moving and stationary.  The software already reads both devices.

this is getting interesting.  Keep it comming.

Adie



Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: JAmBer on January 20, 2015, 05:06:44 pm
This is a great idea! I'm very interested as well.

I think the use of a GPS module is critical for compass auto calibration (or even just use the GPS heading itself).

As someone with super-bright LEDs on his bike at the moment, I can testify that they don't work too well if they're in direct sunlight. Depending on the angle of the sun, they can appear to be lit sometimes even when they're off. I'm not sure how much added value these would have, but if you've got spare pins on the ATMEGA, then why not?!

Do you think the GPS could be integrated into the unit (sit below the LCD? or on top of it, angled forwards etc)? It would be very attractive to have an integrated unit that just needs power and one connection to handlebar buttons.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: SteveD on January 20, 2015, 05:12:50 pm
Sub, extremely interested  :sip:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 20, 2015, 05:54:19 pm
** Snip **
ico-rallye-cap, which doesn't use the wheel sensor at all, but gets the GPS  to provide the distance.  This removes the potential failure point of a cable, a sensor and a magnet.  The installation becomes instantly more user friendly to install and more compact.
** Snap **

As per above we got no choice but to go with a GPS. My original design used the GPS to do 'everything' but then we opted for the Mag Compass. Now we need both Mag Comp and GPS.  ???  Fortunately it will actually make the programming easier with only a GPS and buttons.

** Snip **
As someone with super-bright LEDs on his bike at the moment, I can testify that they don't work too well if they're in direct sunlight.
Do you think the GPS could be integrated into the unit (sit below the LCD? or on top of it, angled forwards etc)? .
** Snap **

If you look at most other Trip meters (ICO as well) the basic distance/speed display need some sort of 'indicator' so the user is informed what they are looking at.  As we start with a clean slate we will try to make the system easier to use but still be 'compatible' with 'tradition'.  :o

Size wise we can fit the GPS unit inside the unit.  We already checked that and also think that will be a moerse bonus.  Not sure about the electronics above (display) and below (processor) affecting the areal.

Dankie vir al die insette, laat dit kom, ek moet teen die naweek toetse begin doen.!!


Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 20, 2015, 05:58:36 pm
** SNIP **
Or, you could just add(for extra cost) a RS232 to TTL converter and read the NMEA sentences from the GPS directly on the micro controller, use the coordinate at the point to work out the deviation and use that constant as offset on the z-axis compass you are using.
** SNAP **

This got me thinking  :laughing4:
1. GPS  A GPS does not seems to have a Compass. It requires the unit to move in order to convert the co-oords of the two positions into the 'Bearing' (Tested the theory with a Garmin unit.)

** Start **
$GPRMC,161229.487,A,3723.2475,N,12158.3416,W,0.13,309.62,120598,,,A*10
Message ID $GPRMC  RMC protocol header
UTC Time 161229.487  hhmmss.sss
Status   A    A=data valid or V=data not valid
Latitude  3723.2475  ddmm.mmmm
Longitude 12158.3416  dddmm.mmmm
Speed Over Ground 0.13 knots  
Course Over Ground  309.62 degrees  True  <---------------**
** end **

2. A Cellphone got a Magnetic Compass AND a GPS.  It can thus give both headings.

NOW I remember. I chose the Mag Compass because it will give the heading even when stationary whereas the GPS must move at least 3meters or pick up different co-oords to do the 'Course' and then calc the True North.

In order to get FULL functionality We will need both the Mag compass (Stationary heading) and the GPS (True North when moving)  Fortunately it will only require 2 lines of code to select the heading type between moving and stationary.  The software already reads both devices.

this is getting interesting.  Keep it comming.

Adie





You do not have to have the GPS moving and use the vector to calculate the bearing.  You only need the coordinate to calculate the offset from Magnetic North.

The intentions on my unit was to have a configurable offset; this is obviously not sufficient in most cases, but if you know you going north/south with little deviation on the longitude it could be sufficient.  In rallye the compass bearings really have a tolerance of (wild guess) 15%(although, the Amageza it was pretty damn spot on!).

I did however research(and wrote code) to use NMEA sentences and use it to offset my bearing from the real compass.  You often find yourself completely stationary, missing a turnoff of some sorts and referencing your CAP.  Your turn your handlebars or bike slightly, or spin it around and get the correct bearing(if you have an electronic magnetometer) - with GPS, your have to effectively travel about 20 meters for it to recalc, since 1. you need a good vector, 2. your software has some averaging(hopefully), prohibiting it from giving your a bearing definitively.

On "bearing"/CAP, you have to make very sure that you do not print out every reading from your magnetometer.  They are normally quite quick with the updates and you will have crazy degree jumps!  If you naively build in averaging by adding numbers in an array, you will get the problem where, if you lets for example say measure 4 readings for your average : 2 of them is 5deg, and 10deg, the other 2 is 350deg, 359deg - your average will be 180deg!!! which is wrong!  Therefore, and I am possibly teaching my grandma to knit here, you should use the mean angle of a array of cirular quantities(degrees/radians).  The formula for this was proven by a few and in different ways.

So, a few things to consider...
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 20, 2015, 06:05:26 pm
Size wise we can fit the GPS unit inside the unit.  We already checked that and also think that will be a moerse bonus.  Not sure about the electronics above (display) and below (processor) affecting the areal.

This is possible, but a very dangerous solutions.  GPS antennae like to be pointed in there designed direction (receiving angle[cone] upwards).  That is easy, either you put the whole unit as a separate wire-connected unit on top of the nav tower or you have a remote antennae that you can point better.

Then, on GPS!  Hobbyist SiRF GPS chipsets generally takes a very long time to acquire a fix, from 30 secs to 2 minutes(sometimes you are lucky and hit 15 secs)  SO :) What you need to consider is a external battery on the GPS board/section, i.e. just fckoff big electrolytic capacitors.  That means the GPS will hold it's fix for a minute perhaps, even if power is cut.   You cannot drive the GPS and the microcontroller on pill 2032 batteries, it will drain them in no time.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 20, 2015, 06:05:58 pm
I will stop now  :peepwall:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: SteveD on January 21, 2015, 08:26:24 pm
Don't stop, what you saying is all true.
Have a look at https://tiny-circuits.com/tiny-shield-gps.html (https://tiny-circuits.com/tiny-shield-gps.html)
It's the smallest integrated GPS board that I have seen yet, and they claim pretty good sensitivity and time to first fix.
What is your market? Dakar will not allow anything with a GPS in it, besides the ERTF SPOC for some reason. They specifically did not allow the ICO Rally CAP. If you stick the GPS inside, you can't sell it to people riding Dakar.
Another alternative would be to use a larger external GPS "puck". Garmin are offering one again, the GPS-18.   http://www.garmin.co.za/prod_detail.php?productid=264&categoryid=&subcategoryid= (http://www.garmin.co.za/prod_detail.php?productid=264&categoryid=&subcategoryid=)

Regarding your power supply:
You will see very large surges on the 12V input. Not very often, only during load dump events, but one of those can smoke a supply quite spectacularly. I would cater for input surges of at least 65V, preferably 87V. ISO 7637-2 is the best guideline that have found yet, and it's free. Test pulse 5a is the one that does the damage. I would design preferably to operate during load dump, alternately survive the load dump and operate afterwards.

Now I'll keep quiet for a while......
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 21, 2015, 10:11:05 pm
PLEASE DONT STOP.

Most of what you both said are in my design specification.  Not in detail but things I had to consider.

@DV, I use a fast filter to 'smooth' the 'jittery' of the compass if the CAP is mounted on the handlebars (User settable)  similar to those used in some loadcell amplifiers to 'stabilize' the reading on the scale. This also take the 360/0 changeover into consideration.  With respect to compass, the system will sense the bike is stationary and select the magnetic as primary.  If I wanna be fancy we can correct the bearing based on the GPS co-oords (will probably do that) and then use the GPS 'course' value once moving.  The nice thing with this method is that we only need to do the MN/TN calc once and save computation time. (the bike is standing so not much happens in any case  :) )  This will ensure that the compass is 'active' even if stationary. I fried my GPS module so wait for a new one. :-[

@ SteveD, Thanks, I do currently protect 'permanently' from 24Volts (run a 12V and then 5V regulator) because of the Dakkies known over voltage from the regulator.  Will look at 'powerline protection' if I understand it correctly. (I am mechanical and only know electrics can shock.!!!

With respect to the built in GPS, will do some research. I think the problem with a GPS was that in 2007?? they tried the ARROW heading but think it was then too easy as you could probably set the co-oords of the waypoint and it will be to easy NOT to miss. (Just thinking!)

How do the Dakar riders get True north if no CAP heading instrument?

Dont stop, keep it coming.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Bill the Bong on January 21, 2015, 10:23:56 pm
They use a cap repeater from the ERTF
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Bill the Bong on January 21, 2015, 10:34:22 pm


With respect to the built in GPS, will do some research. I think the problem with a GPS was that in 2007?? they tried the ARROW heading but think it was then too easy as you could probably set the co-oords of the waypoint and it will be to easy NOT to miss. (Just thinking!)

How do the Dakar riders get True north if no CAP heading instrument?

Dont stop, keep it coming.

Adie

2 things:  there's not nearly enough waypoints to use as a primary navigation means.  The next waypoint may be 15km away on the other side of a mountain.  The other thing is that if you do try and nav WP to WP, you will miss tulips.  Every tulip counts for penalties as a WP, even if there's no published LATs / LONGs.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 21, 2015, 10:56:14 pm
OOPS. It was 2005 with the arrow and not 2007.
** snip **
In my opinion, the reason they don’t have fancy devices telling you exactly which way you should always be heading is because they want to keep it difficult. It’s too easy to just follow an arrow.

In Dakar 2005 (only), they used the arrow approach, where the GPS always told them which direction they should go. In 2006 they went back to the hard way.
** Snap **

@Bill,
** snip  from 2007 Dakar docs. **
GPS in the Dakar:
In the Dakar, the GPS has very limited function.  The rules change somewhat each year,
so check the rule book.  Generally, the GPS will give you only your CAP heading.  There is
usually no arrow pointing to a waypoint ahead.  So, you navigate using three  sources of
information:  ICO for kilometers, GPS for CAP heading, and Roadbook for instructions.  
 
In certain circumstances, the GPS will show an arrow directing you to the next waypoint.  
This is usually only within a prescribed radius of the waypoint.  
** Snap**

I was merely wondering how the Dakar riders get the CAP without a (their own) GPS based on Steve's post.

Adie

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: SteveD on January 21, 2015, 11:55:24 pm
I was merely wondering how the Dakar riders get the CAP without a (their own) GPS

Dakar do not allow you to have your own GPS, they mandate that you use the ERTF unit. You may use an approved CAP repeater, but it has to be fed from the ERTF unit  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: alanB on January 22, 2015, 06:20:58 am
Great work guys keep it up  :thumleft:

Fascinating thread!
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 22, 2015, 07:07:24 am
** Snip **
Dakar do not allow you to have your own GPS, they mandate that you use the ERTF unit. You may use an approved CAP repeater, but it has to be fed from the ERTF unit.
** Snap **

@SteveD, AHHHH, that make sense.

I will look at maybe make the GPS to fit 'underneath' the CAP unit instead if inside and still retain the install simplicity and marketability.  Most units are 10mm thick.  In my search for GPS units we definitely consider external units as they are fairly common and the connection to the Atmega/PIC is not a problem.

@alanB
Even if we fail to produce a marketable product the information passed around do have value for rally raiders. (I hope)

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 07:21:32 am
Sorry for the hijack Adie, but this seems like a general homegrown RallyeNav thread.

I think I have decided, and this might go back on what I have said before, and that is that I am going to drop the compass idea for my next version.  I am going to calculate bearings using my moving vector and display that. 

The spec also allows, without calculation, to display a bearing to the next waypoint.  This way I have a ERTF/CAP repeater in one!

I will still test drive my current unit, but I am afraid that there is too much shit in it already :)

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: alanB on January 22, 2015, 07:28:49 am
What are your thoughts (Garth, Addie, et al) on the Rally Blitz app on an iPhone?

I was really surprised on how well this seemed to work on the last Amageza.

The App is cheap and many people have iPhone's so that represents potentially a very cost effective approach for many people?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 07:34:25 am
I could not see shit on an iPhone, some of the guys had it mounted in the "shade" part of their nav tower and that seemed to work.  As Kamanya, he had great difficulty reading his iPhone in the sun.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: alanB on January 22, 2015, 07:45:35 am
I could not see shit on an iPhone, some of the guys had it mounted in the "shade" part of their nav tower and that seemed to work.  As Kamanya, he had great difficulty reading his iPhone in the sun.

Thanks  :thumleft:

Would you say its fine as long as its in the shade, or would you say its still a problem but doable in the shade?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 07:46:43 am
I think it is doable, but not ideal.  I think MaxThePanda had an iPhone as well? Perhaps give him a shout.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: mtbbiker on January 22, 2015, 08:17:45 am
Sorry for the hijack Adie, but this seems like a general homegrown RallyeNav thread.

I think I have decided, and this might go back on what I have said before, and that is that I am going to drop the compass idea for my next version.  I am going to calculate bearings using my moving vector and display that. 

The spec also allows, without calculation, to display a bearing to the next waypoint.  This way I have a ERTF/CAP repeater in one!

I will still test drive my current unit, but I am afraid that there is too much shit in it already :)


Sorry for my ignorance, but how does the ERTF/CAP Repeater work, do you upload the way point coordinates to the device before the race or do you have to "enter" the value when reaching a way point. I have played with that feature on the Rally Blitz app (although just riding the mtb bike) and It works great when doing an unknown route.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 08:19:03 am
Sorry for my ignorance, but how does the ERTF/CAP Repeater work, do you upload the way point coordinates to the device before the race or do you have to "enter" the value when reaching a way point. I have played with that feature on the Rally Blitz app (although just riding the mtb bike) and It works great when doing an unknown route.

It is uploaded for you I think.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 22, 2015, 08:52:28 am
No hijack if it relevant to more cost effective navigation it 'belong' here.

** Snip **
What are your thoughts (Garth, Addie, et al) on the Rally Blitz app on an iPhone?
I was really surprised on how well this seemed to work on the last Amageza.
The App is cheap and many people have iPhone's so that represents potentially a very cost effective approach for many people?
** snap **

Personally I think that app is hitting the mark 100%.  The f2r app for Android is way down on usability and user interface.

That was my initial plan to use a Smartphone as 'hardware'. Android due to cost and availability.
Pros:  GPS, Compass, touch screen, memory, backup battery, etc, etc all rolled in one package already for less than R800.00 (the price for the GPS only)
Cons: Connection for external buttons and screen 'visibility'. Android programming (for me).  Size, mounting and power supply. Readability (I battle to read my phone on the bike's hands free mount.)

The connection to the external buttons could be overcome with a USB 'server' as the Android platform does not allow 'client' USB devices.

It is still on my list thou as I can now get a WIN8 smartphone for R800.00!!!!!  Programming will be a breeze with my current dev system. (My dev system are Android capable but I am not (yet))

Adie


Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on January 22, 2015, 08:56:18 am
 :peepwall:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: alanB on January 22, 2015, 09:19:38 am
Why not maybe just make a brighter screen and handle bar controls for the iPhone?

ie some sort of Buletooth repeater screen and handle bar controls?

That way you could keep your phone in your pocket where its safe from mud dust etc. 

Just a thought?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 09:29:02 am
Bluetooth modems are expensive...
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: mtbbiker on January 22, 2015, 10:07:26 am
Why not maybe just make a brighter screen and handle bar controls for the iPhone?

ie some sort of Buletooth repeater screen and handle bar controls?

That way you could keep your phone in your pocket where its safe from mud dust etc. 

Just a thought?
That is what the Rally Blitz guys are busy with, adding a Bluetooth device (buttons to operate the app)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: KiLRoy on January 22, 2015, 10:29:37 am
Nice thread this  :thumleft:

I suggest inviting Brett cummings aka Rallyerider2 here for comments?

i'll do it

 :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 22, 2015, 10:41:14 am
** Snip **
I suggest inviting Brett cummings aka Rallyerider2 here for comments?
** Snap **

@KilRoy GREAT
Like I said, this thread is not only for development of navigation eq. it is also about the actual usage by the rider.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: SteveD on January 22, 2015, 10:48:08 am
Sorry for my ignorance, but how does the ERTF/CAP Repeater work, do you upload the way point coordinates to the device before the race or do you have to "enter" the value when reaching a way point. I have played with that feature on the Rally Blitz app (although just riding the mtb bike) and It works great when doing an unknown route.

http://ertf.com/photos/training/TrainingGps2B_uk.pps (http://ertf.com/photos/training/TrainingGps2B_uk.pps)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 10:49:35 am
This is where I am at the moment : https://picasaweb.google.com/105198938841665329174/WR450?authkey=Gv1sRgCLTprvL80928PQ#6052880400230017890
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: nickza on January 22, 2015, 01:16:10 pm
This is where I am at the moment : https://picasaweb.google.com/105198938841665329174/WR450?authkey=Gv1sRgCLTprvL80928PQ#6052880400230017890

Is that just an arduino + xyz axis sensor?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 01:20:20 pm
Arduino Pro mini 3.3V, and yes, a 3-axis tilt sensitive "compass" and some fancy software to smooth it out like that ;)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Bill the Bong on January 22, 2015, 01:36:11 pm
This is where I am at the moment : https://picasaweb.google.com/105198938841665329174/WR450?authkey=Gv1sRgCLTprvL80928PQ#6052880400230017890

I don't need much more than that.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: nickza on January 22, 2015, 01:40:20 pm
Arduino Pro mini 3.3V, and yes, a 3-axis tilt sensitive "compass" and some fancy software to smooth it out like that ;)

Sweet, I have all of those bits lying at home. I shall tinker too  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on January 22, 2015, 01:42:48 pm
Sweet, I have all of those bits lying at home. I shall tinker too  :biggrin:

I am so amped all of a sudden.  The competition here makes me want to finish off my unit!
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: KTM Jagermeister on January 26, 2015, 07:46:15 am
Sub
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on January 30, 2015, 08:34:28 am
Short update.
the basic programming is done.  We can read the GPS, Magnetic compass, front wheel pickup and buttons.  Initial tests looks good.  We read the GPS once per second, the compass 5 times and the wheel sensor with an interrupt.

At this stage we are looking at two GPS distance calculation options. (the GPS does not 'know' the distance because it does not have a 'start point reference'.

Short screen clip of the readings IN THE OFFICE. no movement on the GPS.

 *** Snip ***
Magnetic angle: 351.15
TIME: 7:45
SPEED: 0.00
COURSE: 342.29
Magnetic angle: 356.14
TIME: 7:45
SPEED: 0.00
COURSE: 342.29
Magnetic angle: 3.87
TIME: 7:45
SPEED: 0.00
COURSE: 342.29
Magnetic angle: 5.24
TIME: 7:45
SPEED: 0.00
COURSE: 342.29
** Snap **

The next 'hurdle' will be sourcing the screen.  I got a LCD but they gave me a LED driver.  The software all done.

Adie

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Dodgyloss on February 01, 2015, 04:20:44 pm
Sub :)

I sort-of started working on a Raspberry PI + mpu-9150 type thing, but I'm keen to see where this goes.

Devan
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on February 01, 2015, 05:05:28 pm
@Dogyloss
the problem is the raspPI is overly 'powerfull', too big, too much overhead, does not talk to the outside world 'directly' and are too expensive if you try to build a retail product.  (That was when I did my evaluation.)

I think the best chip would be one from the Microchip PIC family, but alas I could never get them to work properly.  I am just to stupid to grasp the register setting things. (That was a few years ago, maybe things changed.) They are more common, bigger variety and run faster clock speeds than the ATMEL based Arduino system.

In my 8 to 5 job I use both PIC and Arduino but only program the Arduino myself. Hmmm.. maybe I must give the PIC a go again as I do have all the required dev kit. Maybe I could do it now :sip:

During my research I found quite a few 'advanced' CAP heading/Trip readers. We will also look at a graphics screen to show more info simultaneously, this will however be for a separate version due to screen resolution etc etc.  Did a trip this weekend and to be honest NOTHING will beat the OLD style LCD for clarity and readability.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Dodgyloss on February 01, 2015, 05:11:11 pm
@Dogyloss
the problem is the raspPI is overly 'powerfull', too big, too much overhead, does not talk to the outside world 'directly' and are too expensive if you try to build a retail product.  (That was when I did my evaluation.)

Yep completely agreed. I chose the RPi mostly because I can code Python and have one lying around.

The plan was to more to do something similar to track telemetry, measuring speed acceleration and lean. I'm calling it "The Wheeliemeter" :)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on February 01, 2015, 05:21:46 pm
I have the answer... ;) Contact me.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on February 01, 2015, 05:28:45 pm
@Darth
I'm a bit DOF today, Talking to me and answer about?  I still look for a LCD screen   :sip: Other immidiate issues all sorted for both the CAP/Trip and the Roadbook.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on February 01, 2015, 06:22:04 pm
** Just for the fun **

just had a look again at PIC vs ATMEL

Flash a LED code for the two products below.

*** PIC ***
#include <p18cxxx.h>//definitions of input/output pins
#include <portb.h>//functions to control pull-up resistors and interrupts
#pragma config WDT = OFF, OSC = INTIO2, FSCM = OFF, IESO = OFF, LVP = OFF, MCLRE = OFF, STVR = OFF, DEBUG = OFF, WRT0 = OFF, WRT1 = OFF, CP0 = OFF, CP1 = OFF, CPD = OFF, BOR = OFF

#include <delays.h>  //This loads the delay functions. (See the library document.)

void main (void)
{
   //*****begin standard config*****
   OSCCON = 0x70;   //set it to use the 8MHz internal clock.
   EnablePullups(); //PORTB pullup resistors enabled. Doesn't really matter for this tutorial.
   //*****end standard config*****

   //****begin project specific config
   ADCON1 = 0b01111111;   //set all ADC-capable pins to NOT be analog inputs, just digital IO (the leftmost bit is meaningless)
   DDRB=0b11111111;  //all inputs.
   DDRA=0b11111110; //all inputs except RA0. "1" is input, "0" is output.
               //the order is RA7 - RA0.
     //pin direction can also be set individually with commands like: DDRAbits.RA0=0;

   //****end project-specific config***   


     LATAbits.LATA0 = 1;//set pin RA0 high
     while(1)
     {
        Delay10KTCYx(100); //Library function which delays 10,000 * 100 instruction cycles.
               //1 instruction cycle takes 4 clock pulses,
               //so with an 8MHz clock, it's 0.5 microseconds.
               //so 1 million instruction cycles is 1/2 second.
      LATAbits.LATA0 = !LATAbits.LATA0; //Set the output to the opposite of what it was.
                              //The "!" is a logical NOT.
   }
   
}
** END PIC ***

** ATMEL **
// the setup function runs once when you press reset or power the board
void setup()
{
  // initialize digital pin 13 as an output.
  pinMode(13, OUTPUT);
}

// the loop function runs over and over again forever
void loop()
{
  digitalWrite(13, HIGH);   // turn the LED on (HIGH is the voltage level)
  delay(1000);              // wait for a second
  digitalWrite(13, LOW);    // turn the LED off by making the voltage LOW
  delay(1000);              // wait for a second
}
** End ATMEL **

The two samples do the same Blink a LED. Thats it!!
I did leave the comments in the PIc code as it will be 'impossible' to understand the code without whereas the ATMEL is much more descriptive.


that is why the ATMEL/Arduino is there for us dummies.

OK, Back to development.

A
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: MaxThePanda on February 02, 2015, 06:17:12 am
Old school LCD is the right move for readability, I think. Used an ICO and iPhone on the last Amageza. ICO was a mile ahead in readability in bright overhead sunshine. And that's despite a prototype HDB case, which doesn't use a screen protector. With anything over that screen - forget it! Outside of 10am-3pm the iPhone is fantastic - and the latest version of Rally Blitz has even more functionality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq. UPDATE
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on February 13, 2015, 09:41:29 pm
Ok, we had a crap two weeks working for money.  I did get some time to complete the prototype CAP-Trip unit.

All planned functions looks OK.  We did not encounter any issues other then plain stupid mistakes during programming. I wanted to test the unit on the GS this weekend but the LED screen is CRAP in sunlight.  It is not worth wasting any time to assemble it in the housing.

BUT WE COULD APPROVE ALL (allmost) FUNCTIONALITY  :biggrin:

Functions.
1. Time  From GPS or Normal battery backup.  100% functional.
2. Speed from GPS. User setting for km or Miles. 100% functional.
3. Distance from GPS.  I only walked with the unit on a tray around the plot so did get the normal 3m GPS drift interference due to slow speed.  Will improve the code to filter out 'stationary drift'.
4. True compass heading from GPS.  Indicated with normal 'degree' symbol at top. 100%
5. 'Smoothed' magnetic compass heading.  Indicated with 'degree' symbol at bottom.  100%  this heading will automatically 'kick in' if the vehicle is stationary.  So you will ALWAYS have the compass heading - even when stationary.  As soon as the GPS 'kick in' again the 'true' heading will be active. 100%
6.  Hall sensor for wheel speed and distance.  To be tested for accuracy. 20%

NOTE:  The GPS will be an 'add on' unit.  We will evaluate the reduced signal with the GPS 'sandwiched 'underneath the main unit.  At this stage we do not expect issues as the satellites are fixed within 25 seconds from cold boot and 15 seconds warm boot - ALL INSIDE THE OFFICE!! 

The BASE unit will be sold without GPS and Hall sensor to act as a MAGNETIC CAP only.  Either or both the Hall and GPS could be added to form a complete CAP-Trip unit.  The speed menu option will allow the rider to do full navigation with one unit only.

We will source the LCD screen this week to do complete costing but we estimate the price to be 30% to 40% less than the prices on the net for compatible systems.

Added a few pics of the unit in action in the office.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Gee S on March 01, 2015, 10:32:57 pm
Any new developments here? Do you have any Idea about when this unit will be ready for production?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 02, 2015, 09:51:12 am
Hi

Update, I just received the confirmation that the LCD displays (20 off) left China.  Should hopefully have them by Friday. 

Once the screens arrive we will update the housing and pc board.  The first unit would be ready for testing 2nd weekend in March.    I will fit the complete system on the 1200GS (including front wheel pickup) for testing and comparison against the Garmin and the
bike speedo. 

We estimate first production (test) units to be available from March 23rd.  We are looking at a Guinea pig test price structure for the first 5 units.  We still need to clarify the criteria of a 'guinea pig'  >:D

Will keep you posted.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Morph on March 03, 2015, 08:31:07 am
Hi

We still need to clarify the criteria of a 'guinea pig'  >:D


Maybe a pickled pig flambéed in Guiness and Brandy?

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: XTFREAK on March 03, 2015, 10:53:09 am
Off Topic, but why are you called Weedkiller? Cause I've got serious weed issues. Just checking.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 03, 2015, 12:01:10 pm
Ha ha, Weedkiller?

I take no shit from anything that bugs me. REAL ARSEHOLE ME!!  :pot:

Noo joking, the kids pested me to get MIXIT many years ago so they can communicate 'cheaper' with me. Weedkiller was the first name in my head to be used as a 'handle'.

Adie

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 19, 2015, 12:03:10 pm
Hi, a short update.

I gave up searching for the LCD display in South Africa (OR it was way to expensive for the same China type)  We than imported 20 units.  The next item on the import list will be the GPS.  Again either not available or expensive. (The unit we use do a cold indoor satellite fix in 40 seconds and 10 second on warm start. hot start almost instantaneous.)  Here We need to search a bit more as there are lots of the older model available but the new one seems to be a bit scarce.  :-[

System features
We opted for one complete unit with all features.

Dual system for redundancy.  All data available from GPS or Wheel and compass.

1.  Magnetic Compass  - Option to enter Magnetic declination to get (average) TRUE north for that area.
2.  Magnetic wheel sensor for Speed and Distance
3.  GPS True north, Speed and distance.
4.  2 x 3V backup battery with auto shutdown.
5.  Darkness sensing LCD backlight.
6.  Bright white LEDs to indicate selected function.
7.  Powerful menu to configure button actions etc.
8.  Shortcut Button button functions.
9.  Distance. Total, Trip 1 and Trip 2 for both GPS and wheel.
10.Speed. Current, Max and Trip
11.Quick distance/trip adjust if detour.
12.Flat top surface to wipe dust off screen.
13.Internal GPS on removable back if not allowed during racing. (White base in pictures.)

And then we realized that we can also save the 'breadcrumbs' of a trip at one reading per second and download it later as a GPX file.  (future option. >:D )

Note:  the LED's POSITIONSon the pictures are just for evaluation.  They will show the selected display source (gps/wheel) at the right and (D)istance (S)peed and (T)otal/(T)op, Trip (1) or Trip (2)

We will do trails this weekend to compare results against the Garmin and bike instruments.


Enjoy

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on March 19, 2015, 12:04:36 pm
Sunman LCD?

20 Demo/Test/Sample units? :)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 19, 2015, 12:13:46 pm
Yup, Sunman to the rescue. Real ones. Think it is the same as what you used.  :biggrin:

This will be a commercial venture.

The housing is a 3D printed prototype.  Final will be full waterproof molded units.

Adie

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: bud500 on March 19, 2015, 01:39:24 pm
Interesting and impressive stuff.  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Kamanya on March 19, 2015, 01:56:30 pm
Impressive!

I really like GPS driven trip meters.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Black_Hawk on March 19, 2015, 02:30:50 pm
Baie interesante projek :happy1:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on March 19, 2015, 03:05:29 pm
Yup, Sunman to the rescue. Real ones. Think it is the same as what you used.  :biggrin:

This will be a commercial venture.

The housing is a 3D printed prototype.  Final will be full waterproof molded units.

Adie



Adie, wat prys hy? Ek soek dalk 3.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 19, 2015, 03:17:14 pm
Maybe not quite the right place to ask this...

A question (and posible caution) about GPS trip meters.

Are they calculating actual "slope" distance or only a horizontal distance?
If they only work out the distance moved by X and Y co-ordinate changes (horizontal distance) then cumulative distance errors could result over terrain with steep elevation changes. In flat terrain they will be pretty damn close

Also are the Road books made using wheel driven trip meters or GPS?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 19, 2015, 03:54:31 pm
Hi

** Snip **
A question (and posible caution) about GPS trip meters.

Are they calculating actual "slope" distance or only a horizontal distance?
If they only work out the distance moved by X and Y co-ordinate changes (horizontal distance) then cumulative distance errors could result over terrain with steep elevation changes. In flat terrain they will be pretty damn close
** snap **

In my research I also checked the 'creep' error during ascent/descent.  
The GPS DOES NOT give the distance as it does not know 'where to start'.  Basically the GPS receive some basic info from the satellites, do some maths and send that the to application (Garmin/Tomtom etc) to do the rest of the calcs.  We use the $GPRMC segment of the NMEA data from the GPS.  See attached snippet.

Now, we need to calculate the distance.  It is actually the difference between two co-oordinate sets.  The GPS will send the string every second. so the distance is calculated every second.  This become a real problem if you move slow (less than 3 meters per second) as the 'wobble' in the satellites make the average accuracy of a GPS about 3 meters.  If you leave the GPS stationary and calculate the distance every second it will slowly increment.  This must be filtered out by the software.  If you walk with a Garmin will wait quite a few meters before it will start updating the distance.

Now, your question and the calculation.  The simplest (and accurate enough) formula is the Haversine one.  Some other formulae actually take the 'out of roundness' of the earth into consideration.  Scary maths.!!!

In Excell it looks like this.

Enter the following formula in cell C4:
=ACOS(COS(RADIANS(90-Latitude_1)) COS(RADIANS(90-Latitude_2)) +SIN(RADIANS(90-Latitude_1)) SIN(RADIANS(90-Latitude_2)) COS(RADIANS(Longitude_1-Longitude2)) IF(C3="Miles",RadMiles,RadKilom)

Now you are actually correct the 'Altitude' is not used in the formulae.  Me thinks that over an average distance the incline in the road is so small it will have no effect.  

The wheel based distance meter could be a bigger issue with 'slip' tyre pressure etc.   ;)

** Snip **
Also are the Road books made using wheel driven trip meters or GPS?
** Snap **

On cars (mostly used for trip planning ??) the distance is picked up from the rear wheels and could give a much longer distance if wheels was spin during travelling.  Bikes use the front wheel which should be more accurate??.  It think GPS tracking is used as it can be analised on the PC.

Adie


Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Kamanya on March 19, 2015, 03:57:44 pm
Maybe not quite the right place to ask this...

A question (and posible caution) about GPS trip meters.

Are they calculating actual "slope" distance or only a horizontal distance?
If they only work out the distance moved by X and Y co-ordinate changes (horizontal distance) then cumulative distance errors could result over terrain with steep elevation changes. In flat terrain they will be pretty damn close

Also are the Road books made using wheel driven trip meters or GPS?

I am not certain but my opinion...

Both.

The route is plotted on Google earth and then a software program specifically for rally roadbook creation called Rally Navigator is used. The route is then ridden and checked with both GPS and wheel trips.

I used both last year and the GPS one was consistently more accurate than the wheel one. This doesn't mean that the physical one is less accurate, it's just because the creator of the roadbook had more GPS use in the creation of the roadbook.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 19, 2015, 04:13:07 pm
Ok... cool,
It could quite well be that the GPS trip meters calculate the slope distance as the math is not all that difficult.

Have not checked but Google Earth has a digital terrain model built into the back end of the image data base so could also be that any measurements made in GE could also be measured slope distances.

Could well be splitting hairs but just something that occured to me a while back
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 19, 2015, 04:52:14 pm
Adie,

That Haversine formula is interesting but over the short distance from one track point to the next it would make the math overly complicated. It's main purpose is to calculate great circles distances for long distance nav where the straight line from one point to the next is not the actual distance traveled.

In the case of a gps trip meter the track point readings would be ~1sec apart so we are looking at very short distances.
here we could use far simpler 3 vector calculations to resolve the actual slope distance traveled.

Cumulative true distance errors based on  just horizontal distance measurements (against slope distance) could rack up quite quickly. The steeper the terrain the faster the error will acumulate. As an extreme example on a 1 in 1 slope (45 deg) you would be under reading by ~40%.

Not sure how accurate you need to have the trip distances when reading a road book though so maybe this is not really an issue over the typical leg lengths involved, or if the road books are based on GPS horizontal distances then this would be a non issue in the first place.

Appologies if this is a bit of a hijack... been think about this for a while, never had a places to ask.

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 19, 2015, 07:21:44 pm
@Wookie
 No problem with your questions.  This forum gave me a lot of insights/ideas/issues during the design stages.

You are correct with the 'complicated' calc.  We need to do the math at each reading for 'slow' speeds to make sure you follow 'the bend in the road'  :)  If you have a formula that can accept Lat, long to get two points on a FLAT surface it will be great.  Then add elevation in MSL Altitude to get the distance of the 2 points in 3D space and whala you have accurate distance even on an incline/decline.

With respect to the incline.  The MAX road incline should not be more than 26 degrees. this is a 1.2% error on horizontal.  In essence that means the total distance traveled will never be out by more than 1.2%.  On average the incline/decline vs horizontal ratio are minute during travelling (even racing where) a GPS is used.

BUTTTTTTTT...
I did a check on my trip up Sani Pass.  Max incline 26 degrees. Average incline over last 20km about 5 degrees 1200m over 20km. (hope my maths is ok.)

I will do a calc to see what Garmin do with the math on one of the the steepest inclines.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 19, 2015, 08:05:50 pm
Aaah , Ok with you on the Havesine. Never thought of it in the horizontal sense for  road curvature

I will have a look at what we use here at work as far as slope correction calcs go.


Check my maths here for me maybe I am getting this ass about face....
26 degree slope is about 1 in 2 (2m horizontal for 1m vertical). This would give a slope distance of 2.23m for 2 m horizontal (in a 2D plane). Which is 11.5% diff(   (0.23/2)*100)   ).

What worries me more is the fact that the error is always cumulative to the under-read side no matter what the road slope is, up or down.
There are very few sections of road that are perfectly flat so you are always accumulating very small cumulative errors along the way.
Now for most GPS users a error of 10% to 20% is not an issue but for rallye nav this might be a problem (again not being a rallye rider I am talking out of turn here).

Looking forward to what you get on your Sani calculation.

Adie... If you would rather take this to a PM discussion and not clog up your thread just shout.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 20, 2015, 08:34:25 am
Was playing around with this a bit last night.

Using the Garmin DEM model I drew a test track log down the top end of Sani pass going straight down the hill, not following the road, so as to get a steep elevation change (1 in 3). Road gradients are only about 1 in 6.5 (ave)

When you inspect the track log profile closely (Figure 1) it would seem that Basecamp measures leg length distance in the horizontal only. It does calculate the slope angle and elevation changes but does not look like it uses them at all in distance calculations. I would assume that leg length calcs in the actual handheld unit would work on the same basic calculations.

Figure 2 is the whole track log in elevation profile.

Dumping that into excel and recalculating the corrected slope distance values on a leg by leg basis (table 1) gives a distance descepency of ~22m over a track log length of 378m ( 5.82% under reading).

This would be a maximum case as Adie already stated max road gradients are only 1 in 2.

I have also checked the measured garmin distances in Google earth and it would appear that GE also measures distance on the horizontal and not slope distance.

It might be a plan to check with Alex and see how the road books are measured.
If true slope distance is used it might be a simple case of applying a second calculation, to the Haversine formula you are already using, to adjust the horizontal distance for slope.... maybe a user switchable option.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 20, 2015, 09:21:38 am
Thanks Wookie

Fascinating stuff

Now that is put to bed and I do not have to make more complex calcs.  I am running a 16MHz chip to do a lot of work.  I also noticed in Garmin that the calc is only done if the direction (or something else ??) change. See picture. It would actually save a lot of calculating if I implement the same method.  Will have to do some research on what 'filter' to use on the direction change as the left right shaking of a bike is much more than a car. It is almost impossible to point a bike on off-road straighter than 0.1 of a degree.

Ok, the unit will be on the 1200 this weekend for first evaluation of the functions.  I will compare with speedo and Garmin.


Adie


Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 20, 2015, 09:44:02 am
Ooooo bliksem.

What if the GPS is mounted on the handlebar and the calc 'filter' is even on 1 degree ?? the unit will STILL calc the distance every second.  :( 

Luckily I will do all performance test on 1 sec intervals in any case. It would be intersting to compare the two trip logs for the same section

Ok, off to work

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 20, 2015, 09:55:10 am
The calc is done as per saved track log.
If you have the garmin handheld set to automatic in how it saves a track log then you will get variable track points like you have.
It appears to descriminate on speed and azimuth.

I would leave it set to capture at 1s intervals for now.


Done some further checking for you on algorhythms  for distance calcs from Lat/Lon.
Haversine is by far the easiest way to go. Some of the others involve conversion to UTM first which is not really practical for on the fly calcs.


Fun project you have going....  :thumleft: :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 20, 2015, 11:26:13 pm
My office for the weekend.

First test will just be to test continuously switched on, magnetic heading, true (GPS) heading, speed and distance.

There are still an error on the magnetic heading. some 'temperature correction'. I am currently 20 degrees West out. It is almost True north  >:(

enjoy the weekend.

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: MaxThePanda on March 22, 2015, 12:13:39 pm
How does it compare size-wise to the ICO?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 22, 2015, 04:27:00 pm
Ok,
I'm back from the weekend camping trip.  We did 520km of which probably about 320 gravel.

IT DID NOT FALL APART!!.

Ok the GPS distance do need some checking.  I had the decimal in the wrong place and anything further than 99m was truncated.  So, I must check that again.  Based on my estimates the distance is WRONG.  will check the code, maybe I went from Knots to Knots instead to km.  :imaposer:

I knew that the GPS (a moerse metal block) was clos (ok, ok, almost on top) of the compass. The result was a very 'skewed' reading. I will put them in opposite corners and also place the compass at a 45 degree (or more) angle so it will be close to horizontal on the bike.  Need to do more testing to 'really' understand the inner workings.


@MaxThePanda.  We tried to make the unit a 'direct replacement' of the ICO products.  I have never seen an ICO switched on in real life and just had a glimps on a bike once.  We based all our calcs on the size we got off the net. (93x47x30)  Also, I ran the system without any heat sinks on the voltage regulators without any problem.  It only got 'slightly' warm.  I wonder what the size (and price) of the Rallye Max will be.  If I look at the screen on their page what we have done with LED's they did (or going to do) on the purpose built LCD panel.

The Rockfox unit will be 95x50x35 WITHOUT the internal GPS and 45 high with internal GPS. the final height might change slightly when we relocate the components.  The unit will be surface mount once all electronics are approved. (Basically the GPS/Compass position.  


Conclusion.
The internal GPS worked flawless and all updates (except distance) was the same as the Garmin.  I really hope we can get the Compass to work without interference.  The Bright white LED's was way to bright in low light conditions but still 100% visible in direct sunlight.  I will probably 'auto dimm' them based on the ambient light with the same unit switching the backlight on and off.

We will do the PC Board re-design this week to get the compass away from the GPS and look at the GPS distance issue.  We will also mould the wheel sensor and design a bracket.  I will test that on the current unit.

Whishlist.
The more I work with the unit the more options and features become possible.  We will have a grommet in the first units and a USB 'dongle' to upload software updates.  It will also be possible to 'correct' the magnetic compass with the declination angle with the press of a button. (Basically point the bike TRUE NORTH and press the button. - Use GPS to get true north or as a buddy.  >:D )  The system will then have full redundancy.  (Ohh - the system flash the GPS LED if not enough satellites.)


Sooooo.
We are looking for early investors (testers) for the unit. (Might put a limit on the number of units so I can buy a bread at the end - or maybe buy a pack of candles as we gonna burn the midnight oil during April.  The Roadbook is also in final prototype/concept stages.  Once I get the motors I am ready to go. These units will be made available at a discount and also include the USB dongle.  I am just waiting for the GPS prices before we make final prices.  Our aim is to be below R 4000.00 for the unit. Also looking at a 'per pair' discount if one REALLY need two or a reduced price if no GPS back is selected and only the magnetic compass and wheel sensor is used.

Werk boetie werk.
Adie




Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: witblitz on March 22, 2015, 04:59:36 pm
I am not sure which compass board you are using, but I have read that nearby ferrous metals can affect the readings. Never looked further into this though. Maybe something you can check out. Wave a piece nearby it and see how it affects the readings.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 22, 2015, 05:04:26 pm
@witblitz
that is exactly what happened. I use one from Honeywell. Basically same as in Celphones etc etc.  I just forgot about the position of the GPS when I did the board layout. 

sometimes (most times) I'm a bit DOF and dont think.

A
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: SteveD on March 23, 2015, 07:06:02 am
.....I have never seen an ICO switched on in real life and just had a glimps on a bike once.  We based all our calcs on the size we got off the net. (93x47x30)

Where in the Western Cape are you? I think you and my bike need to meet.....
PM me?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 23, 2015, 08:26:42 am
Looking good Adie...

All vehicle (fixed) compasses should be "swung" once installed.
This is done to minimise the effect of any local ferrous metals have on the compass and involves calculating / measuring the Azimuth error and then setting a bias on the compass.

In this case it might not only be the GPS ant. but also the whole bike that could put a bias on the compass heading.
So depending on where you fit the unit the Azimuth error could also change.

We use ultra high accuracy flux-gate nav systems for down borehole imaging and if the flux-gate sub gets within ~1.5 meters of anything ferrous the azimuth goes for a ball of SH..T.   These are ultra sensitive so the radius of effect in your case will be quite a bit smaller, maybe ~0.5m.

Should not be to difficult to measure the Az error and set up a bias in the software but might need to be something the end user will need to set up once they have it installed on the bike.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on March 23, 2015, 09:09:36 am
Hi

@SteveD.  We are in Joostenberg on the plotte.  Look for rockfox.co.za for contacts and other info.  My Cell: 079-5243884 contact me any time.

@Wookie.  I realized the 'correction factor' of the GPS is a bit of a dark art as it needs to be applied to the X, Y and Z axis as separate values. 

I use this:
** what I use **
const int x_offset = 30;
const int y_offset = 128;
const int z_offset = 0;
** Calced in here **
  angle= atan2((double)y + y_offset,(double)x + x_offset)* (180 / 3.141592654) + 180;

I could not get any reference to the offset values.

Can also use some complex object with 1.33 as the ONLY correction.  the Honywell data sheet also came up with 1.333 so maybe the programmer just use datasheet values. ??? If it is 'always' 1.33 why not do it inside the chip.

will keep you posted.

Adie



Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Wookie on March 23, 2015, 09:28:32 am
I don't know the honeywell sensors at all...
Is the compass heading a fluxgate sytem built in as part of the GPS sensor / chip /system?

Most of the modern nav chips that I have come across should have some type of set-up procedure to test max - min values in some way. Nothing in the data sheet about how to measure max-min and calc the offsets?

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on April 13, 2015, 11:28:05 pm
A little update.

We have sorted all of the issues with the unit except the magnetic compass.  We do get more interference than desired from all the metal parts on the bike.  We are also negotiating to bring GPS antennae in at a much reduced price.  This will make the magnetic compass option obsolete as the GPS module already give the speed, time etc without any external cables and magnets.

In the meantime ** This was also posted on the Amageza thread ***

email from Amageza management.

*** snip ***
These electronics are currently allowed on your navigation tower/ instrument setup:

ICO Rallye VR Light
ICO Rallye CAP
RNS Trip-Master XL
RNS Compass-Repeater XL (Also only to be connected to a Garmin eTrex10)
Garmin eTrex 10
No mobile phones, tablets or any computer is allowed. If you are developing something similar to items 1-4, please get a sample to me to review and allow if possible.

*** Snap ***

As the basic design and functionality of the RockFox Trip-Cap unit is the same as the two ICO or the two RNS products rolled into one we contacted Amageza management with respect to evaluating our unit.  We will deliver a complete test unit (Trip and CAP) mid May for evaluation.

Herewith a snip of the document to Alexander

**** Snip ****
Availability warrantee and cost
Final proof of concept and preliminary testing was be completed by 20 February 2015.  The first system(s) must be ready for user evaluation by 30 April 2015.  First production units must be available 5  May 2015.  The first 10 units will carry a full replacement warrantee for one year. Future warrantee will cover factory defects only.  In order to reduce the setup cost for rallying the unit without GPS antenna/features must retail for around R2 500.00 and GPS module about R 1050.00 Vat incl. We aim to market the traditional Trip and CAP (trip with GPS) units as a set at a discounted price of about R 5 500.00 Vat incl.
**** Snap ****

As a further development: We will offer all Amageza riders who purchased a RockFox unit a no questions ask replacement service during the rally. (We will have a service van at the rally)

LASTLY. If we get the GPS units in as another bulk order the price can be slashed to:
Base unit with magnetic pickup for Trip/Speed and 3 button handlebar bracket:   R 1 600.00 incl VAT
Base unit with 48 channel high speed GPS built in base unit. (no external wires) Trip/Speed/Heading:  R 2 400.00 incl VAT
(Remember: both units do have EXACT functionality except the compass heading of the GPS on the Trip/Speed unit)

Please note, these prices are WAY below cost and are funded by the development project as we aim to sell the units in the global market. (Already started overseas negotiations)

So, you have two options, save money to buy an ICO or RNS but put the actual purchase on hold till we get feedback from Amageza management.  If it is a YES you can buy a roadbook etc with the change.  If it is a NO you will at MAX lose on the  exchange rate fluctuation.

We are continuing the development and refining of the units so that they will be available immediately if approved. (hopefully end of May) If we can not get approval for 2015 Amageza we will in any event send a few units out for evaluation overseas.

Let's make rallying more cost effective!!!!

Adie and the rockfox team
079-5243884
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: MaxThePanda on April 14, 2015, 06:45:50 am
Impressive! What's the red button sticking out the left of the unit? Or am I seeing things? Ideally there should be nothing on the left so you can line up two units next to each other...
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: pietas on April 14, 2015, 06:53:58 am
I like this. Nice work, Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on April 14, 2015, 06:55:17 am
Baie goeie werk!
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: darthvader on April 14, 2015, 06:56:16 am
Do you have field testers?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on April 14, 2015, 07:10:16 am
@Max. The red button is a temp 3rd button to test the (individual) functions of all 3 buttons on the handlebar remote.

In real life the two orange buttons on the unit actually simulate all 3 on the handlebar.  Pressing both on the unit is the same as pressing the 3rd on the handlebar. This is also for redundancy if the handlebar unit fail.

@Darth no testers yet.  We have not made a decision on how to 'sell' that.  Maybe we must get those interested together and discuss options. (we can not give more discount as then we will run a 'pay to use' buisness that normally does not last long. >:D

Anyone interested can contact me directly. 

We are in Joostenberg on a plot.  (I walk with the unit and the GPS here in the yard to check low speed accuracy due to 'satellite oscillation' and the 3 meter accuracy issue.)

Enjoy
Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: noble steed on April 14, 2015, 09:09:18 am
If it gets Amageza approval I'll be interested in ordering one. I'll be following to see what they say.
The unit is looking good
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Gee S on April 14, 2015, 09:30:39 am
I am also very interested :thumleft: Just getting a little worried about time limits if something goes wrong and we have to import in the nick of time?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Scooterbike on April 21, 2015, 10:02:59 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Ross Riddle on April 22, 2015, 07:51:47 am
Morning,
I am also interested in purchasing but would need to approval from Amageza pretty soon in order to ensure that should it be declined we have time to import.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on April 22, 2015, 11:08:37 am
Ok,  small update.

The software update is complete.  Will do the final housing design and molding over the weekend to test the 'hardware'.

The 'shakeout jig' will be built next week for vibration and fatigue testing.  We will probably receive the additional GPS areal's in 2 weeks time.

Sooo, when the powers that be  (Amageza management  :) ) are back from their recce trip they can evaluate the unit.  If we get the OK the units will be available immediately.

Also note. As we get feedback on the use and operation of the system we will be able to do a 'firmware update' to address any software issues.  This will ensure the system is the most cost effective and user friendly legal navigation aid.  (this also 'protect' our investment if there are any illegal software features that can be addressed. (the system display a version number during boot up for scrutineering) I do not think the hardware can be illegal as it is just buttons, display, wheel pickup and GPS.  The legality is in how these are applied to allow cheating.

*** Snip from one of my earlier notes. ***
Ons voorsien nie probleme met goedkeuring want die ontwerp kriteria is eintlik op die Dakar en ander groot rallies gemik, (Ons het redelik navorsing gedoen oor wat mag en wat mag nie.) maar mens weet nooit wat ek gemis het nie.  ;)
*** End ***

In the end I can not guarantee the approval but hopefully the Rand dollar will not change much over the next few week if approval fail. BUT if the units pass you can get two for the price of (less than) one.

hold thumbs.
Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: ChrisMann on April 22, 2015, 11:59:59 am
Lekker Adie!  :thumleft:

Is the connector socket compatible with the RNS or ICO thumb switches?

Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on April 22, 2015, 12:07:51 pm

We are currently trying to source the same (compatible) plug/socket.  If we can find a supplier we will DEFINITELY go that route. 

Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Scooterbike on April 22, 2015, 12:41:48 pm

We are currently trying to source the same (compatible) plug/socket.  If we can find a supplier we will DEFINITELY go that route. 

Adie
that will be ideal!
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on April 23, 2015, 09:28:57 pm

Ok, I got the plugs and sockets. According to the spec it is a 'standard M8 type'.
They will arrive in 2 weeks, just in time to fit on the first 'customer test units'.

Aahhh, working weekend ahead (again)!! but hope to show final product Tuesday.  :ricky:

Adie

P.S. we will start with the mounting towers etc this week as well.  Want them to go uot for evaluation with the Trip/CAP units.  Last thing I am looking for is the Roadbook gear motor.  Help please !!


Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: tulips on April 24, 2015, 01:27:30 pm
http://www.bircraft.co.za/fractional_ac_dc_mini_geared_motors.htm (http://www.bircraft.co.za/fractional_ac_dc_mini_geared_motors.htm)

May not be the cheapest though  :-\
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: JAmBer on April 25, 2015, 05:54:21 am
Deal Extreme has a whole selection of geared motors in many different speeds.

http://www.dx.com/p/high-torque-60rpm-12v-dc-geared-motor-91625#.VTsQRGZ16fg (http://www.dx.com/p/high-torque-60rpm-12v-dc-geared-motor-91625#.VTsQRGZ16fg)

Try Alibaba/Aliexpress for buying in bulk.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on April 26, 2015, 08:57:48 am
Update:

The Switch Pod went through the design and prototype stage yesterday.

Design criteria. Full IP67, adjustable, ergonomically friendly, small(ish) and robust.  The unit will have provision for attaching a secondary switch cluster on top. (Indicators etc etc.) 

We did the tests in both sitting and standing position and with two hand sizes to ensure a proper fit for most hands. (Long thumb and short thumb  8) )

Just to start we drew a 3 button 'Lid' and made a 3D sample.  This was WAAII too big and not practical.  Mike then came with the brilliant idea to do the first phase prototyping with urethane foam. What a pleasure.  We could get a sample with switches etc mounted out in 10 minutes.  We then settled on a design that was close to the design criteria.  CAD, 3D and test.

Pic A) did not meet ergonomic criteria.  My thumb was cramping after about 10 roadbook pulses. BUT then after tilting the whole unit 35 degrees Pic B) it was getting close to the natural arc of opening the thumb.  We also made sure the unit is at least 8mm away from the grip flange and the 'thumb to hand' joint.  It can get very sore if that 'knuckle' press against something solid to prevent the grip flange to deflect.

Back to the CAD and the result was amazing. The roadbook fwd/rev button is directly in the natural way of the thumb and the 'main button' (most used) just a few degrees further in the same path. Pic D)  The other two buttons are still in easy reach.  The side view pic show how the buttons follow the arc of the thumb.

What is next?
We will do a few small changes to improve fitting etc before the mould will be made for the first test units.  (We hope to be plug compatible with the major units out there.)

Lastly for the purists or those that do not like change  >:D , we will also offer a 'lever' type switch for the roadbook like the F2R etc.

Availability: Three weeks from today as we will only receive the cables in two weeks time.
Cost as a replacement unit: TBC

enjoy
Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: bud500 on April 26, 2015, 06:39:29 pm
Really impressive.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on April 28, 2015, 11:46:37 pm
Update: 28/04/2015

1. The first Switch-Pods were cast today.  Not the quality we are looking for but at least we now have two units.  Will receive the cables around May 12th.  By then everything will be ready for user testing. (Ohh, the little white 'tube' is a 'spanner' we made to assemble the switches.  >:D )

2. The final design of the Trip-Cap unit was done (started) as well.  We will do a complete 3D printed prototype to see if everything can be fitted in the small space available.  We also made the user interface simpler but kept (even improved) the functionality and usability.

Auto dimming of the LED indicators, Battery level indicator, auto LCD backlight, auto GPS shutoff if 12V power fall away, auto 'sleep mode' after user set-able time, auto 'wake-up' if 12V restored. All trip settings saved in non volatile memory if battery low.  User can 'wake-up' the unit at any time even if no 12V to get trip stats or change configuration.

We want to do the 'vibration tests' this weekend.


Enjoy
Adie 

P.S. The roadbook also underwent a re-design.  It seems as if we can get a 'slip out' cartridge to load the paper during 'markup' without sacrificing durability.  (time will tell)
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: JAmBer on May 05, 2015, 05:03:11 pm
Looking great! Are those rocker switches waterproof, though?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on May 21, 2015, 06:59:06 pm
**** EUREKA ***

We got approval from Amageza management to use our ROCKFOX Trip/Cap unit during the event.

Dankie aan almal wat bereid was 'om te dobbel' met die wag vir goedkeuring.  Beide spanne wat na die eenheid gekyk het was tevrede met die voor produksie model.

Ons sal ongelukkig nie verdere eenhede teen die prys op vorige pos the hou nie. Sal Maandag uwe pryse en verdere beskikbaarheid uitstuur.

Ons sal teen Woensdag 'n eenheid op 'n fiets ge-monteer het om te wys hoe gemaklik die 'Switch Pod' werk.



Adie
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: JustBendIt on May 21, 2015, 07:04:11 pm
Very well done Adie and team at ROCKFOX

Team 525 is proud to be associated with you guys - lets ROCK on  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: noble steed on May 22, 2015, 08:40:20 am
Eagerly waiting for everything to come together!

Hope your supply can meet the demand  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Black_Hawk on May 22, 2015, 09:17:42 am
baie geluk Team Rockfox  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: markdiver on May 22, 2015, 09:51:46 am
Local is Lekker - nice one Adie & ROCKFOX   :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: weskus on May 22, 2015, 12:08:22 pm
Very well done Adie and team at ROCKFOX

Team 525 is proud to be associated with you guys - lets ROCK on  :thumleft:
Nou't julle nie verskoning as julle k@k ry nie :peepwall: :pot:
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: JAmBer on May 22, 2015, 05:36:20 pm
Great news! I'm eager to see a finished product. Please let us know when you've got one that we can come view.
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: noble steed on June 15, 2015, 01:00:03 pm
It's been quiet for a while...

whats the status on the trip/CAP development?
Title: Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on June 21, 2015, 09:51:12 pm
We've been quiet for some time due to work commitments.

Ok, the Trip/CAP is finally in production.  We still have a a stability issue with the new GPS aerial.  Had to do a redesign of the housing to accommodate different GPS models, both internal and external. (Actually we are back at our original design criteria)

We currently wait for the next shipment of power and switchpod cables due to land this week.

AND THEN THE GPS issue.  There was a worldwide shortage of the original GPS we used.  As none of the suppliers in America or China could give an indication on the availability we decided to go for another model (supplier) with better spec (according to the data sheet) BIG MISTAKE. We now sit with 23 units that does not perform as expected (WWAAII OFF the datasheet spec)  So where can I get money to bring the 'correct' unit in (ample stock at various suppliers now)

The Roadbook holder also went on a diet.  For version 1 we decided to abandon the cartridge design and actually ended up with probably the lightest (750g), most compact unit.  Access to the drive side is fantastic.  We also realized that this unit could actually be upgraded as the slip in cartridge of the original design.

Ok, I gotta go to bed, hectic week ahead, the customers are waiting.

Adie