Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => Suzuki DR & DRZ => Topic started by: Kykdaar on May 31, 2015, 08:45:05 pm

Title: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: Kykdaar on May 31, 2015, 08:45:05 pm
Until today my bike started perfectly - one press of the starter motor and she purrs into life.

Whilst out on a ride today, I stopped at a shop. Starter swung over as per normal but bike would not start. After a few attempts it started like usual and ran perfectly - also as usual. About 10 km later when I stopped and switched her off, she refused to start and I had to suffer the indignation of a tow-in home ;D

Back home I started trouble shooting. Did not take long to rule fuel issues out - everything was working as it should. Turning my attention to spark I discovered that the spark plugs were not firing - whether I unscrewed the plugs, kept them in the cap and held them against the engine, or whether I stuck a screwdriver down the throat of the cap. Nada nothing.

Now to work out the reason - take my multimeter, the manual and start testing-

1. Test the continuity in the connection plug to the coil and between the two spark plugs - correct as per manual.
2. Test the generator coil continuity - correct as per manual
3. Test the power sorce coil and pick up coil - correct as per manual
4. Test the CDI unit - resistances beteen the terminals is as per manual.
5. Double check the sidestand and clutch cut out switch mods - still functioning correctly.
6. Check the kill-switch and ignition switch - functioning correctly.
7. Check the two 10A and the main 30A fuses - all intact.

Then I check the regulator - get no resistance readings whatsoever between the terminals. Look like it is toast.

But can that lead to no spark? Whilst troubleshooting I had the battery on charge with the result that the battery was fully charged and the starter motor was turning the engine over normally when I gave it a last try.

So I am stumped at the moment and will appreciate and input and help.

Thanks.


Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on May 31, 2015, 09:26:58 pm
Die eerste keer, toe die fiets na 'n tyd gevat het, het die starter normaal gedraai?

Die tweede keer, toe die fiets glad nie gevat het nie, het die starter enigsins en normaal gedraai?

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Woestynhond on May 31, 2015, 10:03:14 pm
Does the sidestand and clutch cutout system wiring not have a join in the wire or a rubbed through wire that could be causing the problem?
Maybe a ground wire loose etc...
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on May 31, 2015, 10:14:52 pm
The little bit of electrical experience I have is related to a DR 200.

Bought it on WD. Previous owner mentioned possible charging issue.

He supplied a spare set of stator coils and a regulator.

I checked the charging rate. 12.5V. I reckoned it to be adequate.

Sold the bike to a colleage. Ran for a while, then got stranded, while riding.

I replaced the regulator. Reading 13.5V. No more issues.

Could be that the spark coils rely on the higher current from the regulator, which should be similar at the battery, with a perfect regulator. Once the regulator goes, and remember the DR 200s was still providing current, the bike will still run for a while, before the regulator and battery does not provide sufficient current for a good spark. Might still be sufficient to swing the starter though!

I would swap regulators with Jaco. if it runs check output voltage.

If not 13.5 - 14.5V, then the stator coil, or a connection from it could be at fault.

Also check the wires coming out of the engine casing from the stator coils, as well as the connector block.

Good luck!
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on May 31, 2015, 10:53:59 pm
Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Crab on May 31, 2015, 11:02:36 pm
Does the sidestand and clutch cutout system wiring not have a join in the wire or a rubbed through wire that could be causing the problem?
Maybe a ground wire loose etc...

If it was one of the above then the starter would not crank the motor.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on May 31, 2015, 11:09:51 pm
Does the sidestand and clutch cutout system wiring not have a join in the wire or a rubbed through wire that could be causing the problem?
Maybe a ground wire loose etc...

If it was one of the above then the starter would not crank the motor.
I have never checked, but does the engine cut when kicking the side stand out, when in gear, or is it only an in-gear safety start switch?

My KTM's kills the engine. It's wiring is more complex though.




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Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on May 31, 2015, 11:36:54 pm
Does the sidestand and clutch cutout system wiring not have a join in the wire or a rubbed through wire that could be causing the problem?
Maybe a ground wire loose etc...

If it was one of the above then the starter would not crank the motor.
the ignition resistor only blocks the spark, the engine will crank
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 01, 2015, 07:38:18 am
Does the sidestand and clutch cutout system wiring not have a join in the wire or a rubbed through wire that could be causing the problem?
Maybe a ground wire loose etc...

If it was one of the above then the starter would not crank the motor.

Thanks for the replies gents - yes the above is correct. If it was one of the two cut-off switches the motor would not crank over.

Same with the kill switch - if I press it in the motor will not crank over. If it is in the run position the motor cranks over.

Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start

Did not know this, thanks will check. :thumleft:

Die eerste keer, toe die fiets na 'n tyd gevat het, het die starter normaal gedraai?

Die tweede keer, toe die fiets glad nie gevat het nie, het die starter enigsins en normaal gedraai?



Die starter motor draai normaal - motor wil net nie vat nie

 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 01, 2015, 07:40:16 am
So the suspects at this time seems to be -

1. Ignition switch
2. Coil pick-up
3. Regulator

Think I am going to have to butcher Jaco's bike to find the problem  >:D
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 01, 2015, 07:55:15 am
One thing that bothers me is the readings I got from the Ignition Coil primary windings continuity test - the plug leading into the coil (black and black/white).

Manual says to set the Multimeter in the 1 Ohm range, but mine can only go as low as 20 Ohm which I thought should be ok.

Readings to expect is 0.07 to 0.12 Ohm. If I recall correctly, mine was much higher.

The continuity reading in the secondary winding (plug to plug) was spot on at 25 Ohm's 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Matie spero on June 01, 2015, 09:53:45 am
hahahahaha die vinnigste wat kykdaar se dr nog ooit gery het vas gevang!!!!!

Toe ek die uncly by die huis stop, die eerste ding wat, met kinderlike opgewondenheid, geuiter word: "ek het nog nooit geweet my dr kan so trek nie!!!!"
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 01, 2015, 10:01:21 am
 :laughing4: :laughing4:

Dit is f@Kken embarrising.

Daai DR van Matie het partykeer gesoek vir low-range soos hy my van n staande posisie moes sleep  :deal:

Een keer amper neergeslet toe ons koordinasie n bietjie uit was, maar alles deel van die lekker :thumleft:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: sidetrack on June 01, 2015, 10:05:18 am
:laughing4: :laughing4:

Dit is f@Kken embarrising.

Daai DR van Matie het partykeer gesoek vir low-range soos hy my van n staande posisie moes sleep  :deal:

Een keer amper neergeslet toe ons koordinasie n bietjie uit was, maar alles deel van die lekker :thumleft:
Kon erger gewees het, dink net as n BMW of KTM jou moes sleep !
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 01, 2015, 10:07:48 am
OK, so here is the schematic for the DR Ignition system.

My money is on the ignition coil or the regulator.

Matie will be some stripping soon >:D

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 01, 2015, 10:26:19 am
Here are the relevant troubleshooting and testing procedures.

I see LeCap is looking - please help  :3some:

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: sidetrack on June 01, 2015, 10:45:16 am
Swap them with Matie's bike ? Easiest way to find the culprit, should be quick on a DR.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Operator on June 01, 2015, 10:52:43 am
Swap them with Matie's bike ? Easiest way to find the culprit, should be quick on a DR.

 :thumleft:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on June 01, 2015, 11:31:34 am
:laughing4: :laughing4:

Dit is f@Kken embarrising.

Daai DR van Matie het partykeer gesoek vir low-range soos hy my van n staande posisie moes sleep  :deal:

Een keer amper neergeslet toe ons koordinasie n bietjie uit was, maar alles deel van die lekker :thumleft:
Gewonder of Matie se DR vinniger is met daai 2 tappet-valley exhaust pype! :lol8:

Werk seker net op 'n V6!! :pot: :lol8: :snorting:

Sure Stuart's DR can be our designated DR tow truck! :thumleft:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Matie spero on June 01, 2015, 11:52:08 am
:laughing4: :laughing4:

Dit is f@Kken embarrising.

Daai DR van Matie het partykeer gesoek vir low-range soos hy my van n staande posisie moes sleep  :deal:

Een keer amper neergeslet toe ons koordinasie n bietjie uit was, maar alles deel van die lekker :thumleft:
Gewonder of Matie se DR vinniger is met daai 2 tappet-valley exhaust pype! :lol8:

Werk seker net op 'n V6!! :pot: :lol8: :snorting:

Sure Stuart's DR can be our designated DR tow truck! :thumleft:

Chopper, die linkerkantste pyp is n tool can...

Daar was glad nie temin lowend nie, ek was net bang ek gee daai geel DR rekmerke as ek die vol krag unleash!
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 01, 2015, 02:02:41 pm
Swap them with Matie's bike ? Easiest way to find the culprit, should be quick on a DR.

Ja, that is what we are planning to do - swop out the coil and the regulator and check.

:laughing4: :laughing4:

Dit is f@Kken embarrising.

Daai DR van Matie het partykeer gesoek vir low-range soos hy my van n staande posisie moes sleep  :deal:

Een keer amper neergeslet toe ons koordinasie n bietjie uit was, maar alles deel van die lekker :thumleft:
Gewonder of Matie se DR vinniger is met daai 2 tappet-valley exhaust pype! :lol8:

Werk seker net op 'n V6!! :pot: :lol8: :snorting:

Sure Stuart's DR can be our designated DR tow truck! :thumleft:

Die ironie is dat ons n paar minute tevore verder af met die Delmas pad by n robot gestaan en vir mekaar geref het om te se die dice is aan. Het daar weggevlieg en full taps gejaag. Hy is so mid-range n paar meter voor my verby, maar kon nie verder onder my uittrek nie, so op top end (140km/h) is ons basies gelyk.

Ek dink natuurlik my DR is vinniger want ek is tweekeer sy size en die arme bike het dus n agterstand om mee te begin. 

 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Matie spero on June 01, 2015, 02:14:45 pm
my uncle jy fokus op die verkeerde goed in die lewe!!!!

mens byt mos nou nie die hand wat jou voer nie...  :pot:
jy se nie jou bike is beter as die bike wat jou huistoe gesleep het nie!!!  :pot:

Dis nie die hoe vining waarin ek belang stel nie, maar hoe ek by vining uitkom, en deedre trek HARD (jyt n redelike gap gehaad op die weg trek, maar ekt jou so vining verby gevat dat jy dit maar kon gehaad het  :imaposer:) maar nog nie reg nie....

houop kak soek.  :laughing4: ons kan finaal die speletjie speel eendag.... :ricky:

AS JY WEER EN BIKE HET WAT WERK!!!!!!  :imaposer:

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 01, 2015, 03:57:38 pm
With all the work Matie has put in his bike I'm pretty sure it's way stronger than all our bikes
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 02, 2015, 07:09:46 pm
Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start

Hi Stuart,

Can you please expand on this a bit? Where is it located and how do I access and test it?
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on June 02, 2015, 07:33:52 pm
Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start

Hi Stuart,

Can you please expand on this a bit? Where is it located and how do I access and test it?
Get on your DR Stuart, and go and assist Kykdaar!


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Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 02, 2015, 11:24:30 pm
Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start

Hi Stuart,

Can you please expand on this a bit? Where is it located and how do I access and test it?
Get on your DR Stuart, and go and assist Kykdaar!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I don't even like working on my own bike
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 02, 2015, 11:26:02 pm
Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start

Hi Stuart,

Can you please expand on this a bit? Where is it located and how do I access and test it?
It's actually located in the ignition switch, I removed my switch and had to put one in line in the wiring,, can't remember what wires though
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 07:21:55 am
Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start

Hi Stuart,

Can you please expand on this a bit? Where is it located and how do I access and test it?
It's actually located in the ignition switch, I removed my switch and had to put one in line in the wiring,, can't remember what wires though

Cool, thanks a lot :thumleft:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 07:36:20 am
So, the last few days have been a steep learning curve.

I am pretty good at mechanical stuff, but suck at electrical issues. But this is a DR and I am determined to get to know it inside and out and if that means having to learn something new along the way, then so be it.

First I had to try and understand how my digital multi meter work in measuring resistance and continuity - I normally only used it to measure voltage. Read the manual properly for the first time ;D

A lot of the parts I was going to have to test requires either resistance or continuity tests. An added complexity of the resistance testing was that one had to set the range within which to perform the test in order to get the right result - 1 Ohm, 1K Ohm, etc.

Now, one would have expected that information to be set out logically on the meter for the layman, but nooooo that would have been too easy I guess. 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 07:46:54 am
With the bike not running, I could not perform certain tests such as charging rate or generator load performance, but I decided to test everything else that could be tested.

First up was the inspection of the generator coil continuity.

The manual talks about testing continuity across three lead wires, but then indicates the tester range to be set to 1 Ohm. Bit confusing, but I did as told and found a reading of 1,5 to 1,6 across all leads.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 07:51:33 am
Next up was the rectifier.

First I checked the voltage of the incoming + and - wires and found 12.72 Volts, so the rectifier is being supplied with power.

Then I set the meter to the 1K Ohm range and tested across the terminals as indicated. Absolutely no reading whatsoever.

Verdict: the rectifier is toast
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:00:57 am
I was worried that the side stand switch might still allow the starter to turn the engine over, but stop the bike from firing. Previously I only checked the loop in the circuit that I made when removing the side stand switch, but this time I went further and also checked the side stand/ignition interlock relay.

When applying voltage to it you can audibly hear the relay click and on the 1 Ohm range I found continuity of 0.01 between terminals 1 and 2. Seems it is operating as it should be. 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:09:25 am
So, according to the trouble shooting guide I checked the CDI couplers and then the battery voltage on the incoming orange/white and black/white wires with the ignition switched on. I did this and found a reading of 11.67V - lower than the expected battery output, but possibly due to the draw of the lights. The manual gives no indication of what specific value is to be expected.

Next up was the tests to eliminate a faulty pick up coil or a faulty power source from the list of possibilities.

The power source coil gave the expected reading of 0.1 Ohm and the resistance of the pick-up coil was within spec at 206 Ohm.

So with that eliminated the Trouble shooting guide fingers a possible faulty CDI or Ignition coil



Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:18:24 am
First up was the CDI - here I did a large sample of the possible tests and on every occasion found the readings the same as, or within the range specified. My conclusion is that the CDI is fine.

Next up was the ignition coil - first up the primary ignition coil resistance measured at the wires leading to the ignition coil. Found a value of 0.01.

Then I measured the resistance over the secondary windings (spark plug cap to spark plug cap) and found a very high reading of 69 Ohm  compared to the 23-25 Ohm spec.

I think that I found my second culprit.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:26:34 am
So the conclusion of the tests seems to indicate a rectifier that is totally toast and an ignition coil that looks suspect.

Here I must mention that I never previously suffered from a drained battery (which would indicate a charging problem) and that my bike always started at the first push of the starter button.

So I guess the questions I have is -

1. what can cause a rectifier to just pack up and die over the course of a few Km's? - this happened during our trip
2. can that result in consequential damage to the secondary windings of the ignition coil?
3. is the regulator an integral part of the starting circuitry of the bike? - e.g. will the bike not start without the rectifier connected as seems to be suggested by the diagram below.
4. I will still perform the test suggested by Stuart, but is there something else I should have tested?

   
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: african dust on June 03, 2015, 09:27:41 am
I doubt it can be fixed but I will take the bike off you hands to save you misery... that is what friends are for... :thumleft: :pot:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 09:34:08 am
I doubt it can be fixed but I will take the bike off you hands to save you misery... that is what friends are for... :thumleft: :pot:

Hahahaha - you a funny guy. I kill you last ;D

Guys that normally say this knows what the problem is so that they can buy cheap and fix easily  :patch: - so spit it out, what is wrong here?
Title: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on June 03, 2015, 09:44:20 am
We will now classify you as a "Master DR 650 Technician", or maybe even Professor!😄

You're doing well Kykdaar! Most of us would just drop it off at Runner's!😉

Must admit, half the fun of owning a DR, is to spend time maintaining, repairing and farkling it!😃


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Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 10:06:34 am
We will now classify you as a "Master DR 650 Technician", or maybe even Professor!😄

You're doing well Kykdaar! Most of us would just drop it off at Runner's!😉

Must admit, half the fun of owning a DR, is to spend time maintaining, repairing and farkling it!😃


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 ;D yes, I spend most week-ends fiddling with my DR in some way (maintenance, farkling, beutifying, etc) as it calms the mind and relaxes me - it is something I really enjoy doing - I call it my "Zen-time"

This particular problem is just another reason to spend time on the bike and get to know it even better. I like to learn new stuff and would be chuffed if I can figure this one out. At least next time when I look under the seat or at the wiring I would know exactly what most connectors, relays, diode's, wires and associated hardware are about.

Tell you the truth, If I can't crack this one and end up taking it to Runner, he will have to be F@^&^%g good to find the cause ;D

Besides, I have to give it a try first as his workshop is overflowing since he started working on KTM's :biggrin: :pot: 


 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: african dust on June 03, 2015, 10:23:10 am
I doubt it can be fixed but I will take the bike off you hands to save you misery... that is what friends are for... :thumleft: :pot:

Hahahaha - you a funny guy. I kill you last ;D

Guys that normally say this knows what the problem is so that they can buy cheap and fix easily  :patch: - so spit it out, what is wrong here?

dude, I am less than clueless... I just like the DR bike you have.  :biggrin: and felt like adding a bit of levity to the topic.
Sorry for the hassles you are having, sure you will sort it out soon...   :thumleft:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 03, 2015, 10:23:36 am
African Dust,, if you are looking for a project DR I might have one for you if the price is right
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: african dust on June 03, 2015, 11:18:28 am
African Dust,, if you are looking for a project DR I might have one for you if the price is right

Hey Sc, wish I had the time but I learnt my lesson once before... I need a clean bike as I barely have enough time to ride..let alone project a bike. thanks for offer though.
chopper pilot (until Kykdaar becames a professor) is the Guru in Dr's maybe he is Keen ?
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Woestynhond on June 03, 2015, 12:07:07 pm
Whats this i hear about a project DR ???? Nee Chopper jy kan nie nog een koop nie!  :peepwall:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 03, 2015, 01:05:22 pm
96 model licenced an up to date, waiting for my spares to arrive from the states
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 01:11:09 pm
96 model licenced an up to date, waiting for my spares to arrive from the states

Interested - PM sent
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on June 03, 2015, 03:25:48 pm
Whats this i hear about a project DR ???? Nee Chopper jy kan nie nog een koop nie!  :peepwall:
Not me!!!😉

Although I have a spare engine for the us DR nuts!👍


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Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 03, 2015, 03:36:33 pm
I think I'm going to sell all my toys except my one DR and buy a 990 and a really bling Twat suit
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 04:38:28 pm
test for voltage pulses to the coil whilst swinging the motor.if you dont get unplug the pick up from the crank and measure resistance should pulse to couple of ohms then high as you swing the motor

Dont need regulator to start the bike as long as battery is charged
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 04:44:14 pm
First up was the CDI - here I did a large sample of the possible tests and on every occasion found the readings the same as, or within the range specified. My conclusion is that the CDI is fine.

Next up was the ignition coil - first up the primary ignition coil resistance measured at the wires leading to the ignition coil. Found a value of 0.01.

Then I measured the resistance over the secondary windings (spark plug cap to spark plug cap) and found a very high reading of 69 Ohm  compared to the 23-25 Ohm spec.

I think that I found my second culprit.
23K to 25K if your plug caps are not standard they may have fitted non resistive type.2x 10k caps plus your 69 ohms hmmm strange how you got 69  :o
pull caps off and measure each one

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:21:37 pm
test for voltage pulses to the coil whilst swinging the motor.if you dont get unplug the pick up from the crank and measure resistance should pulse to couple of ohms then high as you swing the motor

Dont need regulator to start the bike as long as battery is charged

Unplugged the coil and tested for voltage pulses to the plug - only had enough in the battery for a few swings, but I got pulses between 12 and 15 volts. Will confirm when the battery has a better charge and will then try it with the rectifier both connected and unconnected.

I will double-check by performing the second test as well. Are you referring to the pick up wires which goes from the generator into the CDI?
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:35:55 pm
Suzuki spec as per manual for resistance in secondary winding measured from sparkplug to sparkplug cap is 23-25 K Ohm.

This evening I played around with the plug caps in more detail -

The plug caps each contain a resistor and if you measure accross a single plug cap the reading is 10K Ohms. If you remove both plug caps and just resistance through the wires you get 004 K Ohm. If you put everything together and measure accross the spark plug caps you get 24 K Ohm.

Found out that my one spark plug gives no reading when measuring on its own and that a reading of 1 (open circuit?) Is now given when you try and measure accross the caps.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 08:49:39 pm
12v pulse is fine.recon plug cap is the problem :thumleft:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 08:52:25 pm
No need to check the pick up as you are getting pulses to primary.easy once you know what to check
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:54:44 pm
12v pulse is fine.recon plug cap is the problem :thumleft:

Would it not then still have sparked on the second good plug? I checked and it did not.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 08:57:21 pm
No need to check the pick up as you are getting pulses to primary.easy once you know what to check

I checked the pick up in any event. K Ohm at rest is 204 which is in spec. Could only crank it a few times, but saw readings as high as 215 and as low as 63.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 08:58:31 pm
Take the faulty cap off and place your wifes finger on it and try :pot:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 09:01:29 pm
Take the cap off and hold it close to the top of spark plug
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 09:02:49 pm
Take the faulty cap off and place your wifes finger on it and try :pot:

Hahaha ja right ;D

Thing is i put my own fingers there and nothing.

Only thing I can still do is put another plug in it and give it a try. Not very hopeful though. There is something mysterious going on here.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 09:04:18 pm
Make sure the metal pole of the coil is earthed properly
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 03, 2015, 09:14:31 pm
Remove a plug and earth it to engine then Unplug the primary wire and run a piece from the battery and pulse the coil like you would with morse code.if still see no spark get another coil
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 09:23:20 pm
Thanks man, some good suggestions there - going to give them a try quickly.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 09:50:10 pm
Remove a plug and earth it to engine then Unplug the primary wire and run a piece from the battery and pulse the coil like you would with morse code.if still see no spark get another coil

Yebo, was sparking nicely :thumleft:

Before I get too exited though, something doesnt make sense. I decided to repeat the volt pulse test to the primary plug. Now, it is a bitch to keep the test brobes on those two skinny lugs, but I could get no reading on the meters 20v setting. When I set it to 200 volts I got a reading of 58,4 volts?
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 03, 2015, 10:16:00 pm
Remove a plug and earth it to engine then Unplug the primary wire and run a piece from the battery and pulse the coil like you would with morse code.if still see no spark get another coil

Yebo, was sparking nicely :thumleft:

Before I get too exited though, something doesnt make sense. I decided to repeat the volt pulse test to the primary plug. Now, it is a bitch to keep the test brobes on those two skinny lugs, but I could get no reading on the meters 20v setting. When I set it to 200 volts I got a reading of 58,4 volts?


Think it is a matter of scale that I do not yet understand. When I set the meter to 200mV the resolution is the apparantly 100 uV. Testing that setting on the battery gives a reading of 12.7.

So I used that setting to re-do the voltage pulse setting test on the primary plug again. This time I got a
nice constant reading alternating between 29 and 22 if I crank the motor with the ignition on.

Anyways.....late now.

Will try again tomorrow. Thanks for all the help.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 07:24:16 am
Remove a plug and earth it to engine then Unplug the primary wire and run a piece from the battery and pulse the coil like you would with morse code.if still see no spark get another coil

Yebo, was sparking nicely :thumleft:

Before I get too exited though, something doesnt make sense. I decided to repeat the volt pulse test to the primary plug. Now, it is a bitch to keep the test brobes on those two skinny lugs, but I could get no reading on the meters 20v setting. When I set it to 200 volts I got a reading of 58,4 volts?
on the 20v range it should have given a 1 reading as the value is more than 20v start higher than what you are looking for and dont try and measure your secondary voltage with your meter or you could end up killing it
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 07:35:10 am
 get a new set of plug caps as its a total loss system.they both fire together so if the one cap is open cct both will be dead
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 04, 2015, 08:03:24 am
get a new set of plug caps as its a total loss system.they both fire together so if the one cap is open cct both will be dead

Thanks, will order a new set of spark plug caps as mine clearly need replacement.

I have, however, had access to a spare coil with both plugs caps according to spec, as is the readings on the primary and secondary windings. I plugged it in - no spark.

So to summarize -

On the negative side -

1. I have a blown rectifier (gives no readings), but it seems the consensus view is that the bike does not need one to start.
2. I have one bum spark plug cap, and that means my whole ignition coil would malfunction as they fire together.

On the positive side -

1. I have a good CDI, power coming in is on spec and internal terminals resistance readings check out
2. The generator coil and the pick-up coil works as it should.
3. My spark plugs are still good according to the morse-code test ;D

So, having then used another spare ignition coil with proper spark plug caps and spark plugs (tested) - the reasonable expectation was that the bike would spark, but it did not.

It seems that there is a hidden gremlin still waiting to be found. 

 

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 08:51:43 am
sorry but think the CDI is then the problem.

The voltage its is sending to the coil is only confirming the pick up to CDI is good.

It is probably not generating correct frequency.it sends high freq pulses for each single trigger.you can see this with a scope but otherwise borrow one :'(

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 09:09:04 am
looking on the net most recon the stator causing your problem
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 09:11:21 am
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/541623-charging-system-diagnoses-plus-the-free-power-mod/ (http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/541623-charging-system-diagnoses-plus-the-free-power-mod/)
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 04, 2015, 11:57:25 am
sorry but think the CDI is then the problem.

The voltage its is sending to the coil is only confirming the pick up to CDI is good.

It is probably not generating correct frequency.it sends high freq pulses for each single trigger.you can see this with a scope but otherwise borrow one :'(



Not the CDI. Have borrowed one and no difference.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 12:53:55 pm
then can only be stator
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 04, 2015, 02:49:06 pm
then can only be stator

Seems so. Is there any DIY tests that can be done with a Multi meter to confirm? 

I have already performed the below tests
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 02:54:40 pm
have you taken the cover off to see what it looks like.could be full of water :o
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 04, 2015, 02:59:51 pm
have you taken the cover off to see what it looks like.could be full of water :o

No not yet, will now go the full hog and take that off, as well as open up all the switches (ignition, kill-switch, etc). Was trying to avoid if not necessary due to having to order a new gasket from Suzuki and they not exactly the fastest with delivery times.

Thanks for all the help so far - really appreciate it :thumleft:

Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 04, 2015, 03:02:21 pm
make a gasket ::)
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 04, 2015, 03:03:22 pm
make a gasket ::)

Ja, what do they call that stuff again - veloid or something?
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on June 04, 2015, 03:42:12 pm
make a gasket ::)

Ja, what do they call that stuff again - veloid or something?
Wil jy die engine casing aan die stator coil kant afhaal? ???
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 04, 2015, 04:46:26 pm
make a gasket ::)

Ja, what do they call that stuff again - veloid or something?
Wil jy die engine casing aan die stator coil kant afhaal? ???

As ek n visueele inspeksie van die stator moet maak om bv te sien of hy gebrand het. Hoekom, is dit n moeilike afere?
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: chopperpilot on June 04, 2015, 09:35:26 pm
Ek het al een afgehaal om te kyk of daar 'n starter clutch in was, en nie 'n soliede rat nie.

Die fiets op die verkoper se gras neergele, boutjies los gemaak, met my hand die casing 'n goeie stamp gegee om die gasket se seel te breek en die casing af te haal. Dink die gear selector moes eers af! Ek was gelukkig dat die gasket nie seer gekry het nie, en ook nie olie na die tyd gelyk het nie.

Maak net seker die starter clutch se bushes aan weerskante in posisie is, voor jy die casing terug sit!


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Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 07:40:11 am
Check ignition switch as well, it has a resistor in if that resistance is not measured then it wont start

So remembering this remark by Stuart, and after checking virtually everything else imaginable, I decided to have a look at this last night.

First problem is that Suzuki secured the ignition barrel from the bottom with tamper proof nuts to prevent easy removal - basically a torque head, but with a steel pin in the middle so that you cannot use the normal bits - probably need a special tool, but I will just drill it out later over the week-end.

So I turned my attention to the wiring leading into the ignition and after about 30 minutes managed to remove all the electrical tape exposing this.  
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 07:49:15 am
Julle mense moet vir die oom begin luister !!
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 07:50:52 am
F@#k knows why the wires are in this state, as I did not see any signs of splicing.

But the ignition gets power, the neutral light shows and all electrics work as normal - apart from the bike not starting of course.

So now, if I cannot (yet) get to the physical resistor, perhaps I can measure the resistance across the two wires that it is connected to (Orange/yellow and Black/White) and learn something from that?

According to the interwebs it is a 100 Ohm 1/4 watt 5% resistor. Don't really know what all that means or how to measure it, but I set the Multimeter to the 1 Ohm setting and measured the resistance across the wires using the exposed parts thereof already provided. In the 100 Ohm range the reading is 1.9 Ohm

I do not know how to interpret that reading - i.e. is the resistor still in place doing its job or is it shot? 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 07:53:19 am
100ohm 1/4 watt 5% resistor between the black/white- orange/white wires
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 07:55:41 am
I have no idea with the testing, I would cut the two wires and solder a new resistor in line, I'll check at work to see if I have any left from when I removed my ignition switch
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 07:57:10 am
Was each individual wire wrapped?
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 07:59:15 am
So it seems that a few guys have had the same symptoms like me - the bike turning over, everything testing correctly but it would not start.

In some of those case it seems that it was due to this ignition resistor. Found this on Thumpertalk - http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/848399-need-some-help-no-spark-from-a-dr650/ (http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/848399-need-some-help-no-spark-from-a-dr650/)

 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 08:02:33 am
I have no idea with the testing, I would cut the two wires and solder a new resistor in line, I'll check at work to see if I have any left from when I removed my ignition switch

Thanks man :thumleft:

Was each individual wire wrapped?

Yes, in real shitty / sticky duct tape I may add - hence the half hour spent to remove it. 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 08:04:06 am
I hope this is the problem
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 08:17:54 am
I hope this is the problem

Yes, me too. Of course it helps that the Suzuki wiring diagram in the manual does not even show this resistor ::)

I have literally been over this bike with a fine toothcomb. I have checked and re-checked everything possible. I have even gone to extreme lengths to make sure that there is no remnant of the previous clutch and side stand switch circuitry which I removed some time ago that it playing up - for example, I did not just removed the side stand switch, I have now disabled the last part of that system, the side stand relay/ignition interlock assembly as well.

This whole thing feels like a small little problem off some kind and this may just fit the bill - I really hope so.

If this does not work then I will have to remove the stator and have it tested   
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: lecap on June 05, 2015, 08:32:51 am
I hope this is the problem

Yes, me too. Of course it helps that the Suzuki wiring diagram in the manual does not even show this resistor ::)

...
 

Well that would be like posting instructions how to hotwire and steal a DR650SE ne ???
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 08:34:18 am
I have the resistors for you give me a call after 9am 0845129533 the resistor is there as a anti theft device thats why it aint in the diagram
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 10:05:05 am
I hope this is the problem

Yes, me too. Of course it helps that the Suzuki wiring diagram in the manual does not even show this resistor ::)

...
 

Well that would be like posting instructions how to hotwire and steal a DR650SE ne ???

Perhaps, but I do not think the average bike thief is an expert in analysing complex wiring diagrams.

There are other ways of safeguarding a bike if you want to. Making it almost impossible for an owner to find out why his bike is not starting, I submit, is not one of them. 
   
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 10:05:59 am
I have the resistors for you give me a call after 9am 0845129533 the resistor is there as a anti theft device thats why it aint in the diagram

Hi Stuart, thanks for the chat. Will come around this afternoon.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 05, 2015, 10:36:07 am
F@#k knows why the wires are in this state, as I did not see any signs of splicing.

But the ignition gets power, the neutral light shows and all electrics work as normal - apart from the bike not starting of course.

So now, if I cannot (yet) get to the physical resistor, perhaps I can measure the resistance across the two wires that it is connected to (Orange/yellow and Black/White) and learn something from that?

According to the interwebs it is a 100 Ohm 1/4 watt 5% resistor. Don't really know what all that means or how to measure it, but I set the Multimeter to the 1 Ohm setting and measured the resistance across the wires using the exposed parts thereof already provided. In the 100 Ohm range the reading is 1.9 Ohm

I do not know how to interpret that reading - i.e. is the resistor still in place doing its job or is it shot? 

you are on the 2000 range and reading about 1900 ohms or 1.9K
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: spankme on June 05, 2015, 10:38:11 am
and you need to unplug the ignition wires to get a true reading
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 12:11:27 pm
and you need to unplug the ignition wires to get a true reading

Thanks. So I must unplug the wires to the ignition and then I test whether there is any (high) resistance between the Orange/yellow and Black/wires to try and figure out if the resistor is functioning.

On what Ohm scale should I test and what would you expect a correct reading to be given that it is an 100 Ohm resistor between the two wires?

 
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: sidetrack on June 05, 2015, 03:38:31 pm
Damn Kykdaar I feel for your troubles, buying what one hopes is a rock solid dual sport bike only to be banished to the garage fiddling with wires and hoping for the best. At least it's too damn cold to ride right now  :biggrin:

You can buy a torq screw set at Midas for cheap, would not drill on the ignition as it may damage the screws.
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 07:57:55 pm
Damn Kykdaar I feel for your troubles, buying what one hopes is a rock solid dual sport bike only to be banished to the garage fiddling with wires and hoping for the best. At least it's too damn cold to ride right now  :biggrin:

You can buy a torq screw set at Midas for cheap, would not drill on the ignition as it may damage the screws.

Ja man, nothing with me is ever straight forward. Someone else and it would be a bum sparkplug, me and it is a mystery fault of note.

Funny thing is I have not lost faith in the bike. I will fix this and then will retrofit it so that everything is as simple and straighforward as possible.

Yes, a good time to spend in the garage weather wise ;D
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 08:09:38 pm
That resistor should be in already
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 08:19:36 pm
That resistor should be in already

Yes, just had to sort something out for the wife - heading to the garage now.

Hold thumbs :thumleft:
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 08:48:22 pm
LOL,, like I said "Luister vir die fokken oom"
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark
Post by: Kykdaar on June 05, 2015, 08:56:56 pm
LOL,, like I said "Luister vir die fokken oom"

 :biggrin:  :thumleft: :thumleft:

I so grateful to you Stuart. Should have listened to you right from the start and and saved myself a week's agony.

For the other guys - Stuart really knows his way around a DR. If you go back on this thread you will see he diagnosed the fault early on and exactly correctly.

So after getting used to doing everything I could contemplate and still just hearing the engine turning over. This time I fitted a 3c resistor to the ignition and without daring to get too exited in case I am dissapointed again - I composed myself and touched the start button.

The mighty DR roared into life immediately.

I nearly cried  :peepwall:

Thanks again Stuart - I owe you big time,
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: StuartC on June 05, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
You owe me nothing glad to be of help
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: Crossed-up on June 05, 2015, 09:25:49 pm
 :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:

Well done!
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: Crab on June 05, 2015, 09:41:05 pm
Good news!
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: chopperpilot on June 05, 2015, 10:26:33 pm
You owe me nothing glad to be of help
Stuart for President!😉


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Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: chopperpilot on June 05, 2015, 10:27:25 pm
Wonderlike nuus Kykdaar! Nou't ons almal geleer!


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Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: african dust on June 06, 2015, 05:42:43 am
great that it is all sorted...
We are all a bit wiser ( except StuartC as it seems he was wise from the begining) , thanks to your battle.

10 points for patience and diligence on your side !
Title: Re: DR 650 - no spark: SORTED thanks to StuartC
Post by: sidetrack on June 06, 2015, 09:32:34 am
 :occasion14: