Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => BMW 1200 LC => Topic started by: AlanDoyle on September 17, 2015, 06:01:03 pm

Title: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on September 17, 2015, 06:01:03 pm
I recently bought a good clean second hand LC with 11,600 km. Its an awesome bike and I am very happy with it............except for the clunky gearbox and the dragging clutch, this really irritates me as I am a certified Bike Mechanic.

I had a good look at the bikes specs and the inner design of the engine and gearbox, what oil should be used in it? 5W40 fully synthetic with BMW specs, this is the specified oil for the bike.

This oil in my opinion is too thin in viscosity and also thins out even more with higher temperature making the symtom's even worse. I went and looked for Liqui-Moly 10W60 oil. This is also fully sythetic and is an excellent oil with excellent specs. I drained the engine and replaced the oil filter with a new original part from BMW. It took 4.1 liters of oil.

The difference is, to say the least, night and day. The clutch does not clunk into gear nearly as badly as it did, the gear changes have become much smoother and the engine is quieter. What more could one ask for? Now I really like the bike even more!!!
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX PROBLEMS REDUCED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on September 17, 2015, 06:11:34 pm
Can you put any oil in if the bike is still under warranty?
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX PROBLEMS REDUCED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Draadwerk on September 17, 2015, 06:17:48 pm
Interesting. Now you gave me a new idea. Thanks for the tip
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX PROBLEMS REDUCED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Herklaas on September 17, 2015, 06:21:29 pm
 :sip: And my question is ....... how will it work on my Triumph 800 xc, the recommended oil is Castrol1 4T 10W50, Don't know, but do not think it's synthetic. But I do think it's a good oil.  
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on September 17, 2015, 06:23:49 pm
While the bike is under warranty, you should not mess with the oil. Mine just had a service and I drained the oil after the service so that they will not pick up on the different oil I put into it. Mine still has 3 month warranty on it. I would not do anything to the bike that would be bad for the engine. Its perfectly safe, but dont go any thicker than what I have specified. 10W60 Liqui-Moly Full Synthetic.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX PROBLEMS REDUCED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on September 17, 2015, 06:27:46 pm
:sip: And my question is ....... how will it work on my Triumph 800 xc, the recommended oil is Castrol1 4T 10W50, Don't know, but do not think it's synthetic. But I do think it's a good oil.  

Your bike is already using 10W fully synthetic oil in it, so using another 10W oil is not going to make a change. The oil viscosity stays the same. The only difference is the the 60 part on my oil will help on very high temperatures. Here in South Africa we don't really get very cold, BMW use the very thin oil because these bikes are bought and used all over the world, some VERY cold regions too!
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on September 17, 2015, 06:29:03 pm
So the full synth Fuchs 10W60 will have the same results?
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on September 17, 2015, 06:45:27 pm
So the full synth Fuchs 10W60 will have the same results?

In theory,  any 10W60 will give the same result, but in practise,  I am not sure.

I am also not sure that a move from 50 to 60 will make much of a difference as the LC doesn't run particularly hot.   I am wondering if the change the OP experienced is not because he changed to LquiMoly.  Even on the previous models some swore by using LM in the gearbox.  So,  perhaps (no idea personally) ,  just wondering)  if a LM 10w50 would not have had the  same effect.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Herklaas on September 17, 2015, 06:50:09 pm
 :sip: Tx  for the info.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on September 17, 2015, 07:06:43 pm
So the full synth Fuchs 10W60 will have the same results?

In theory,  any 10W60 will give the same result, but in practise,  I am not sure.

I am also not sure that a move from 50 to 60 will make much of a difference as the LC doesn't run particularly hot.   I am wondering if the change the OP experienced is not because he changed to LquiMoly.  Even on the previous models some swore by using LM in the gearbox.  So,  perhaps (no idea personally) ,  just wondering)  if a LM 10w50 would not have had the  same effect.

The Fuchs full synthetic oils are also very good. I personally have only tested the Liqui Moly oil, but I am sure the results will be the same. These oils are all tested and graded in the States under strict tolerances.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX PROBLEMS REDUCED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on September 17, 2015, 07:10:04 pm
Interesting. Now you gave me a new idea. Thanks for the tip

You are welcome.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on September 17, 2015, 08:40:58 pm
So the full synth Fuchs 10W60 will have the same results?

In theory,  any 10W60 will give the same result, but in practise,  I am not sure.

I am also not sure that a move from 50 to 60 will make much of a difference as the LC doesn't run particularly hot.   I am wondering if the change the OP experienced is not because he changed to LquiMoly.  Even on the previous models some swore by using LM in the gearbox.  So,  perhaps (no idea personally) ,  just wondering)  if a LM 10w50 would not have had the  same effect.

The Fuchs full synthetic oils are also very good. I personally have only tested the Liqui Moly oil, but I am sure the results will be the same. These oils are all tested and graded in the States under strict tolerances.

 :thumleft:

My LC is a 2014.  After the software upgrade recently to help smooth gearshifts, the gearshifts are remarkably smoother.  I have checked my bike as well as my wife's (also 2014 LC) and neither have the dragging clutch.  It seems that was a 2013 issue.  As soon as ou rbikes are out of warranty, I plan to start using LiqueMoly as well.  It does come highly recommended and I recently rode an 08 with LM in the gearbox.  Could not believe the difference.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: metadata on September 30, 2015, 02:12:05 pm
I have a 2013 LC - and the clutch started giving hassles in December 2014.  Now BM want me to pay for a new one (R10k).  They have taken about 6 months with this issue.  (I had to take it back to them after they gave the bike a 'clean' bill of health)

What should I do here.  I ride gently because I have the wife on the back.  I don't feel like this is my issue.  Also if I replace it, will it just happen again?
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on September 30, 2015, 07:36:17 pm
I have a 2013 LC - and the clutch started giving hassles in December 2014.  Now BM want me to pay for a new one (R10k).  They have taken about 6 months with this issue.  (I had to take it back to them after they gave the bike a 'clean' bill of health)

What should I do here.  I ride gently because I have the wife on the back.  I don't feel like this is my issue.  Also if I replace it, will it just happen again?

If you are sure that it's not your fault, then I would insist that they sort this out. BMW don't like negative publicity and are generally very good with issues like this. I think go back to them and without threatening anyone, ask them to please sort this out. If they still won't sort it then resort to harder line tactics like threaten with lawyers etc. I hope you come right with them.

These clutches are very tough, so I don't think it will do it again.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on October 01, 2015, 10:21:25 am
I have a 2013 LC - and the clutch started giving hassles in December 2014.  Now BM want me to pay for a new one (R10k).  They have taken about 6 months with this issue.  (I had to take it back to them after they gave the bike a 'clean' bill of health)

What should I do here.  I ride gently because I have the wife on the back.  I don't feel like this is my issue.  Also if I replace it, will it just happen again?

The problem with a clutch is that it is a wear item, like brake pads.  Best you can do is ask nicely.  If they refuse, you have a problem.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: OomD on October 01, 2015, 12:45:56 pm
That being said, in my opinion it takes a moerofa lot of abuse to make a clutch last less than 20,000km, even less than 50,000km is suspicious to me. I steongly think that BMW should be a bit accomodating here, even if just sharing the cost.


via Tapatalk
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on October 01, 2015, 12:52:33 pm
That being said, in my opinion it takes a moerofa lot of abuse to make a clutch last less than 20,000km, even less than 50,000km is suspicious to me. I steongly think that BMW should be a bit accomodating here, even if just sharing the cost.


via Tapatalk

I sort of agree OomD, but also looking at it from a manufacturer point of view.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Draadwerk on October 01, 2015, 06:11:33 pm
How will BMW prove abuse? Because that is the only way that they would be able to escape liability. Wear and tear on a bike with approximately 20 K Kilos will never be acceptable to any customer, I HOPE !!!
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on October 01, 2015, 08:24:55 pm
I have a 2013 LC - and the clutch started giving hassles in December 2014.  Now BM want me to pay for a new one (R10k).  They have taken about 6 months with this issue.  (I had to take it back to them after they gave the bike a 'clean' bill of health)

What should I do here.  I ride gently because I have the wife on the back.  I don't feel like this is my issue.  Also if I replace it, will it just happen again?

The problem with a clutch is that it is a wear item, like brake pads.  Best you can do is ask nicely.  If they refuse, you have a problem.

These new GS bikes have a wet clutch, not like the older model which ran a dry clutch like a car. (Non lubricated) The wet clutch is lubricated by the engine oil and will last about 4 times that of a dry clutch. So I find it very strange that it is worn out after such a short mileage. Thats why I am hoping that BMW sort this out for you.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on October 01, 2015, 08:29:08 pm
This is what your wet clutch looks like. As you can see it has multiple friction plates plus the lubrication equals much less wear and tear on it. Number 4 is the clutch plate cluster.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on October 01, 2015, 08:35:59 pm
This is the older type clutch on the GS 1200. A single, double sided clutch plate clamped between a pressure plate and unlubricated. Number 5 is the clutch plate.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on October 01, 2015, 08:49:27 pm
The 1200 GS LC 2013< engine. You can see the clutch nicely in the front of this cutaway engine.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on October 08, 2015, 01:29:23 pm
These new GS bikes have a wet clutch, not like the older model which ran a dry clutch like a car. (Non lubricated) The wet clutch is lubricated by the engine oil and will last about 4 times that of a dry clutch. So I find it very strange that it is worn out after such a short mileage. Thats why I am hoping that BMW sort this out for you.

There are just way too many variables to make a statement like: "a wet clutch will last 4 times longer than a dry clutch".  True, if everything else remains equal, but it doesn't.  My previous GS with a dry clutch, when traded in at 108000km still had the original clutch.  Same with my wife's bike, except that was traded in at 107000km.  I cannot see any wet clutch lasting over 400 000km.

Also, if you surf the forums you will hear of many bikes with wet clutches that had to be replaced at 40 000, 50 000, or even less km.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Copernicus on October 08, 2015, 02:19:37 pm
These new GS bikes have a wet clutch, not like the older model which ran a dry clutch like a car. (Non lubricated) The wet clutch is lubricated by the engine oil and will last about 4 times that of a dry clutch. So I find it very strange that it is worn out after such a short mileage. Thats why I am hoping that BMW sort this out for you.

There are just way too many variables to make a statement like: "a wet clutch will last 4 times longer than a dry clutch".  True, if everything else remains equal, but it doesn't.  My previous GS with a dry clutch, when traded in at 108000km still had the original clutch.  Same with my wife's bike, except that was traded in at 107000km.  I cannot see any wet clutch lasting over 400 000km.

Also, if you surf the forums you will hear of many bikes with wet clutches that had to be replaced at 40 000, 50 000, or even less km.

I guess this is true.  But at least now if you need to replace the clutch it is a fairly straight forward job - no need to split the whole bike any longer.  What would you recon could the time difference be?  I bet it is considerable.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on October 08, 2015, 05:16:29 pm
These new GS bikes have a wet clutch, not like the older model which ran a dry clutch like a car. (Non lubricated) The wet clutch is lubricated by the engine oil and will last about 4 times that of a dry clutch. So I find it very strange that it is worn out after such a short mileage. Thats why I am hoping that BMW sort this out for you.

There are just way too many variables to make a statement like: "a wet clutch will last 4 times longer than a dry clutch".  True, if everything else remains equal, but it doesn't.  My previous GS with a dry clutch, when traded in at 108000km still had the original clutch.  Same with my wife's bike, except that was traded in at 107000km.  I cannot see any wet clutch lasting over 400 000km.

Also, if you surf the forums you will hear of many bikes with wet clutches that had to be replaced at 40 000, 50 000, or even less km.

I guess this is true.  But at least now if you need to replace the clutch it is a fairly straight forward job - no need to split the whole bike any longer.  What would you recon could the time difference be?  I bet it is considerable.

Janee!   A wet clutch should save you plenty thousands in labour.

Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on October 08, 2015, 06:23:02 pm
It would save you plenty of money on labour. These engines are a lot easier to work on than the older models in this regard. Maximum 1 hour and new plates would be in and ready to be used. When I replace clutch plates like these I also replace the driven plates as well because of distorting from heat. Some people like to slip the clutch excessively and this leads to a lot of heat generated on the clutch plates.

I have to say, that I still like the older GS 1200's. They are bullet proof and run for ages and can take serious abuse. These newer bikes make me nervous to own because they are relatively untested in the long term. But they do ride great!!!
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: lecap on November 13, 2015, 10:30:29 am
I find it rather interesting that a clamed bike mechanic recommends a non JASO MA2 engine oil for a bike with a wet clutch and gearbox lubricated by the engine oil.

If you have a bike with the wrong oil in the engine and the clutch sticks and you change the oil it will always improve. Almost entirely regardless of what oil you put in as long as it's just the correct viscosity.
The problem is your bike engine will make quick business out of a car engine oil (even your super fancy fully synthetic 10W60) and you will very quickly have reverted back to clunky gear changes and a sticky clutch.


For decades there was a lot of guesswork and try and error involved in selecting the correct engine oil for your bike. Motorcycle specific products were few and far between and no standards existed. This left you wondering if the expensive bike oil you bought was actually any different than the car oil which retailed for half the price on the next shelf. All the difference you had was a claim printed onto a container reading: Shear stable. ???


Then the Japanese gave us the JASO standards.
Using a non JASO MA2 engine oil in your bike since then seems medieval to me, sorry. Just like putting SAE40 into your airheads gear box just because you had it in your R25's box too.

Just my humble opinion.


In all your old air- and oilhead boxers you can obviously continue to use car engine oils happily. And please no SAE40 in the box. You can even run your R25's box on GL4 gearbox oil :D
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on November 20, 2015, 12:48:18 pm
Im over 7000 km down the line now and the gear changes and clutch operation is still the same as in the beginnig of the oil change, I think you may be underestimating what a good synthetic oil can do in a bike with clutch and gearbox combined. Jaso MA is correct for the engine setup, but in my humble opinion, as long as the oil does not have Molybedenum in it the oil will perform well in its correct viscosity and the clutch wont start to slip.

I am happy with my choice of oil.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Famous Fanus on December 25, 2015, 10:12:41 pm
Anybody else who tried the Liqui Moly? Anymore feedback?

 I have a 2015 LC  with 2500 km on the clock. The gear changes are very cluncky, especially 1st to 2nd to 3rd, to the point where it's irritating the hell out of me! A friend of mine got a new 2016 spec lc adv last week from Centurion and what i can't understand is that the gear changes are silky smooth, although its the same engine anf gear box.

When i did my 1000km service i asked Zambesi BMW to investigate this and was told that it's a characteristic of the bike? Maybe a dog in Pta East who also own a LC can take my bike for a spin and tell me if i am over reacting and if the bikes gear changes are abnormally clunky?

Please let me know
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: DaveT on December 26, 2015, 11:02:35 am
I had a 2013 GS LC and the box seemed as clunky as any of the other BMW's I had before. I recently bought a 2016 spec GSA LC and there is a huge difference in the box. This one is much smoother on the changes even when going from N to 1st.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Famous Fanus on December 26, 2015, 12:12:18 pm
Hi DaveT

That's exactly my experience after driving my friends 2016 adv this week, but I want to know why is that? According to the dealers there was no changes done to the 2015 gs and the 2016 adv gear box?
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: DaveT on December 26, 2015, 03:18:11 pm
The only explanation I can think of is the heavier flywheel in the Adventure, but I might be wrong. :peepwall:
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on December 26, 2015, 04:22:06 pm
Gear shifts on my 2014 improved dramatically after some software upgrade,  but I would think the 2015 models roll off the floor with the software loaded.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Famous Fanus on December 26, 2015, 08:19:25 pm
The two has the same weight flywheel from 2014 onwards, thats what makes this so strange to me. I wonder of the two dealers use the same spec oil?
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on January 10, 2016, 02:48:48 pm
In my opinion, I think it has a lot to do with the damper in the drive shaft that makes it smoother. But this damper system was fitted from 2014, so maybe there has been another modification we have not been told about? Or they have changed the oil spec.

Remember, these oil specs are set for Europe (colder climate). South Africa is a much hotter place to live, so we may need the thicker oil as I said in the beginning of this post. My bike is still changing much better with that oil. Nearly due for a service now. My bike is a 2013 and out of warranty, so I will use the same oil again on it.

Remember this? Maybe a lot of you have forgotten.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on January 10, 2016, 05:57:34 pm
AlanD the chart you have posted is that for air or watercooled bikes?
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 11, 2016, 01:09:39 pm
In my opinion, I think it has a lot to do with the damper in the drive shaft that makes it smoother. But this damper system was fitted from 2014, so maybe there has been another modification we have not been told about? Or they have changed the oil spec.

Remember, these oil specs are set for Europe (colder climate). South Africa is a much hotter place to live, so we may need the thicker oil as I said in the beginning of this post. My bike is still changing much better with that oil. Nearly due for a service now. My bike is a 2013 and out of warranty, so I will use the same oil again on it.

Remember this? Maybe a lot of you have forgotten.

I remember it well and still see it in owner's manuals of certain vehicles.  

BMW did not change oil specs.  
They did do a software upgrade if you let them service your bike that makes gear shifting much smoother.

AlanD the chart you have posted is that for air or watercooled bikes?

Don't think it is either.  Just a chart as an example.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on January 11, 2016, 05:26:49 pm
I have had the sofware upgrade done and it did not change the gear changes. What I did notice is that when you are changing down, then the computer blips the throttle for you if you did not blip it. It never did that before the software upgrade.

Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 12, 2016, 12:06:35 pm
I have had the sofware upgrade done and it did not change the gear changes. What I did notice is that when you are changing down, then the computer blips the throttle for you if you did not blip it. It never did that before the software upgrade.



Jip.  SW upgrade does blip the throttle, if required, on downshifts.  The SW upgrade made a huge difference on my 2014 bike as its gearbox was truly k@k.  My wife's 2014 wasn't nearly as bad.  Both are 2014.  Both serviced by same dealer, i.e. same oil.  So, I have no idea why some have such k@k boxes and some don't. 
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on January 12, 2016, 07:12:47 pm
AlanD the chart you have posted is that for air or watercooled bikes?

Hi Chris, that was just an example of how temperature effects oil viscosity's. The point I was making is that it is so hot here in SA so it makes sense to use a slightly thicker oil here. These specs on these german bikes are for European countries, much colder than SA.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 13, 2016, 08:58:24 am
AlanD the chart you have posted is that for air or watercooled bikes?

Hi Chris, that was just an example of how temperature effects oil viscosity's. The point I was making is that it is so hot here in SA so it makes sense to use a slightly thicker oil here. These specs on these german bikes are for European countries, much colder than SA.

Alan, it has been mentioned a few times and yet it comes up again.  Please help me understand.  An engine (any engine for the sake of the example) runs at 85 degrees C.  It will run at that due to radiator, radiator fan, thermostat, etc.  regardless of whether the outside temperature is 10, 20, 30 or 40 degrees C.   The fact that SA is warmer, can therefore have no, or little impact.   The lower "w" number is a different story though.

If you look at the chart you posted, that seems to be clear as well.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Famous Fanus on January 13, 2016, 06:14:29 pm
If that's the case why did Stephan Peterhansel said they strugled with the puegeots engine temperature on the Dakar yesterday because of the heat of yesterday?
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Az on January 13, 2016, 06:39:28 pm
The fact that SA is warmer, can therefore have no, or little impact.

Easy to test.. monitor your temps as you let you bike idle for 15min on a nice frosty morning and then again at midday on a 30+ day.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 13, 2016, 07:56:10 pm
If that's the case why did Stephan Peterhansel said they strugled with the puegeots engine temperature on the Dakar yesterday because of the heat of yesterday?

I don't know.   This is why I am asking.   My guess is that Peterhansel was hammering the crap out of the car,  possibly exceeding what the cooling system could handle in that heat and the engine I am talking about in my question is not in a race car.  It is in a standard vehicle doing duty on a daily commute.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 13, 2016, 07:57:07 pm
The fact that SA is warmer, can therefore have no, or little impact.

Easy to test.. monitor your temps as you let you bike idle for 15min on a nice frosty morning and then again at midday on a 30+ day.

Idle would not be a true test since a large amount of cooling is lost,  not so?   Even then, I am asking: "if my engine is running at 80 degrees, or even 100, or 120, how does an ambient temperature of 40 have any impact on the oil inside that engine?"
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: Az on January 14, 2016, 09:37:39 am
The fact that SA is warmer, can therefore have no, or little impact.

Easy to test.. monitor your temps as you let you bike idle for 15min on a nice frosty morning and then again at midday on a 30+ day.

Idle would not be a true test since a large amount of cooling is lost,  not so?   Even then, I am asking: "if my engine is running at 80 degrees, or even 100, or 120, how does an ambient temperature of 40 have any impact on the oil inside that engine?"

But all you'd want to see is the differential? running, idling would make no diffs to the effects of ambiant temp, which is what you'd be testing.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 14, 2016, 01:34:34 pm
The fact that SA is warmer, can therefore have no, or little impact.

Easy to test.. monitor your temps as you let you bike idle for 15min on a nice frosty morning and then again at midday on a 30+ day.

Idle would not be a true test since a large amount of cooling is lost,  not so?   Even then, I am asking: "if my engine is running at 80 degrees, or even 100, or 120, how does an ambient temperature of 40 have any impact on the oil inside that engine?"

But all you'd want to see is the differential? running, idling would make no diffs to the effects of ambiant temp, which is what you'd be testing.

The initial discussion started because this was said by a poster:

" Remember, these oil specs are set for Europe (colder climate). South Africa is a much hotter place to live, so we may need the thicker oil as I said"


So, to cut out all the middle waffle, please let me see if the above statement is correct and if so (or not so) why?

 


Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on January 19, 2016, 03:54:05 pm
Ok, lets look at it like this.

 An engine that is water cooled for example.................. yes, it runs at about 90 degrees C (water temperature). But that is only cooling the cylinder head and part of the cylinder. What about the temperature behind the pistons where the oil is sprayed from the big end bearing to lubricate and keep the pistons cooler, ambient temperature definately has an effect on the oil running temperature. The water does not cool the oil completely as oil is very slow to cool in this way, the air flowing around the engine sump and casings does this. That's why some engines that run really hot have external oil coolers fitted.  :pot:
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 19, 2016, 05:14:24 pm
Ok, lets look at it like this.

 An engine that is water cooled for example.................. yes, it runs at about 90 degrees C (water temperature). But that is only cooling the cylinder head and part of the cylinder. What about the temperature behind the pistons where the oil is sprayed from the big end bearing to lubricate and keep the pistons cooler, ambient temperature definately has an effect on the oil running temperature. The water does not cool the oil completely as oil is very slow to cool in this way, the air flowing around the engine sump and casings does this. That's why some engines that run really hot have external oil coolers fitted.  :pot:

Pity you ended your post with :pot:  

It sort of kills the credibility of your response.

I Googled a bit and must say,  I way prefer the Google explanation.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: AlanDoyle on January 20, 2016, 03:47:44 pm
Hi Bear, The pot was not about the credibility of my response, but rather meaning that this subject is stirring up the pot.
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: TheBear on January 20, 2016, 04:33:11 pm
Hi Bear, The pot was not about the credibility of my response, but rather meaning that this subject is stirring up the pot.

 :thumleft:
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: lecap on January 29, 2016, 09:24:59 am
Ok, lets look at it like this.

 An engine that is water cooled for example.................. yes, it runs at about 90 degrees C (water temperature). But that is only cooling the cylinder head and part of the cylinder. What about the temperature behind the pistons where the oil is sprayed from the big end bearing to lubricate and keep the pistons cooler, ambient temperature definately has an effect on the oil running temperature. The water does not cool the oil completely as oil is very slow to cool in this way, the air flowing around the engine sump and casings does this. That's why some engines that run really hot have external oil coolers fitted.  :pot:

There is only one part of a piston engine which is always oil cooled: The Piston.

There is NOTHING to cool except your cylinder, cylinder head and piston. These three components surround the combustion chamber where the heat is coming from.

In a modern liquid cooled engine you do have a lot of heat transfer between the oil and the coolant happening in the cylinder head. To help with emissions  and to shorten warm up cycles and to be able to extend service intervals you find coolant - oil heat exchangers, even on bikes. (The BMW F800 is one example.)

AlanD the chart you have posted is that for air or watercooled bikes?

Hi Chris, that was just an example of how temperature effects oil viscosity's. The point I was making is that it is so hot here in SA so it makes sense to use a slightly thicker oil here. These specs on these german bikes are for European countries, much colder than SA.

Alan, it has been mentioned a few times and yet it comes up again.  Please help me understand.  An engine (any engine for the sake of the example) runs at 85 degrees C.  It will run at that due to radiator, radiator fan, thermostat, etc.  regardless of whether the outside temperature is 10, 20, 30 or 40 degrees C.   The fact that SA is warmer, can therefore have no, or little impact.   The lower "w" number is a different story though.

If you look at the chart you posted, that seems to be clear as well.

I think I mentioned it before: SA is NOT hotter than most parts of Europe (besides Scandinavia and the British Isles) looking at day time highs. It might be hotter for a longer time of the year and a lot of Europe is definitely colder in winter (when you don't ride in Europe).
Title: Re: CLUTCH AND GEARBOX GREATLY IMPROVED (GS1200 LC 2013)
Post by: DavidMorrisXp on February 29, 2016, 09:28:06 pm
After a recent bad experience with my car and carbonisation in part due to traffic congestion and long service intervals, I have decided to have my bike serviced more frequently.  I am hoping the more frequent oil changes will maintain the engine on the bike longer and I will not experience as much problems with the clutch and/or power loss later on