Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => KTM LC4 400/610/640 & 690 => Topic started by: Dwerg on October 01, 2015, 10:49:32 am

Title: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Dwerg on October 01, 2015, 10:49:32 am
My weapons of choice.

How do the two compare? I've always been curious about the 610 but there has never been one available while I was shopping
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: chopperpilot on October 01, 2015, 11:17:09 am
My weapons of choice.

How do the two compare? I've always been curious about the 610 but there has never been one available while I was shopping
Wil ook graag weet!

As ek klaar met DR 650s is, sal dit seker tyd vir 'n 690 wees.

Het al saam met Straatkat en sy TE 610 in Swazi gery.

Glo 300 mm suspensie travel. Die DR het maar 250 mm, en is uit die oude twatwaffle.

Forrie

Hoeveel kilos het jou TE 610 op? Kondisie? Te koop?


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Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Xpat on October 01, 2015, 11:44:02 am
My weapons of choice.

How do the two compare? I've always been curious about the 610 but there has never been one available while I was shopping

Gnarly technical riding where traction is at premium as in Lesotho goat trails - Husky. High speed desert riding (e.g. many portions of this years Amageza) - KTM.
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: chopperpilot on October 01, 2015, 11:46:39 am
My weapons of choice.

How do the two compare? I've always been curious about the 610 but there has never been one available while I was shopping

Gnarly technical riding where traction is at premium as in Lesotho goat trails - Husky. High speed desert riding (e.g. many portions of this years Amageza) - KTM.
Confirm the Husky is a 6 speed?

Can it cruise at 120 - 130 comfortably?


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Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Xpat on October 01, 2015, 11:59:19 am

Gnarly technical riding where traction is at premium as in Lesotho goat trails - Husky. High speed desert riding (e.g. many portions of this years Amageza) - KTM.
Confirm the Husky is a 6 speed?

Can it cruise at 120 - 130 comfortably?


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Yes, Husky is 6 speed (I have 630, but it's more or less the same as 610, with a bit more revy engine) and also wide ratio gearbox, generally considered the best there is. I personally am actually of two minds about it. The 1st and 2nd are pretty short - together with long stroke engine reason for superior tractability of Husky in gnarly and/or slippery conditions. The 6th on the other hand is overdrive - no acceleration whatsoever available and you may need to downshift even going up small inclines. This can be fixed to an extent by changing sprockets and some power upgrades (I have them all), but the point is, 6th is just too long IMO (exact opposite of 690, where 6th is just way too short for me).

But yes, it can cruise easily whole day at 120/130 and in 5th has still lots of ooomph to go. That said, it's a long stroke thumper so you feel that it is not where it feels at its best - it feels a bit strained, it is 600 cc only (570 cc actually for 610) - not different from any other thumper, just with more power. 690 on the other hand with its short stroke engine feels right at home there - however the short gears are a bit of annoyance as you have to keep it at the high revs (Dwerg's 2014 I have ridden seemed to have significantly better bottom than the 2010 I have ridden before, so I'm sure It could pull a bit longer gears)

My 2c - I have 630 for a while and have ridden 690 only on two test rides.
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: chopperpilot on October 01, 2015, 12:06:40 pm
Xpat

Thank you for the detailed information!


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Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Forrie on October 01, 2015, 12:21:27 pm
My thoughts.

The 690 is definitely more powerful and pulls like a train through all the gears. Read - Hooligan machine!
Husky gearing is far better and I often find myself looking for another gear on the 690.
The suspension on bikes is top notch, with the 690 slightly edging it.
If I was to spend 2-3 hours on tar, I would rather do it on the Husky.

@Chopperpilot

My Husky is a 2009 TE610 with 16500km.
Serviced by Mike Fuchs
Scorch Pipe
Screen
Luggage Rack
Aluminum Bashplate

Thye picture below should give you an idea as to the condition.
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Xpat on October 01, 2015, 12:29:50 pm
Forrie, I'm considering seriously 690 as my long distance adventure bike (with the rally kit). I'm keeping Husky for those Lesotho/Swazi sorties. I have tried to make my 630 into that long distance tool (Lynx fairing, Safari tank, pannier racks), but it seems just too much hard work on those long boring stretches - even on good dirt like going south of Vaal dam towards Lesotho. The bike is plenty powerful, but the high power extracted from relatively small engine means that it is like riding one of those overexcited miniature bull terriers - you just cannot relax into the ride, and need to be constantly in the racing mode.

Your preference of 610 for tar duty goes against my assumption so I just want to check - is the reason for you preference of 610 on tar just the gearing, or anything else? I'm with you on the gearing but hope that different sprockets may make 690 more usable for long distance riding (hell I'm even considering ridiculously expensive wide ratio gearbox from Nova Technologies). Did you try 690 with different sprockets?
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: wolf skaap on October 01, 2015, 12:35:14 pm
Generally speaking, a short stroke motor tends to fall on its face with longer gearing.
Case in point was my YZ450.

*Eagerly awaiting to see how you are going to turn a much more racy 690 into a better long distance tool than the tamer, long stroke 630* 
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Xpat on October 01, 2015, 01:11:35 pm
Well, long distance adventuring results in long time spent going fast (relatively speaking, let's say 120 - 150 kmh for me), i.e. spending a lot of time time in higher revs. So the way the argument goes in my head - the bike which is more at home at those higher revs is better suited for that, which in my experience is 690. And yes I know twins are much better suited for that, but I'm not interested in those - I need as much offroadability as I can get for those (short distance wise but quite long time wise) sections that I really enjoy.

I would play with the sprockets to see if it can run those speeds at somewhat lower revs - and will see quickly if or how fast I run into the problem you described (short stroke falling on its face). I have already tried 630 for that and it didn't suit me (for that purpose, for gnarly riding its great). So I would like to give 690 a go - worst case it will not work and I will sell the bike, no big deal except for a bit of financial loss (not even sure about that seeing where the prices of 990s are and considering 690 will stop being produced at the end of this year - at least as KTM).
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Forrie on October 01, 2015, 01:40:44 pm
@Xpat

Yeah, I would definitely say my preference for the Husky over the 690 on tar is down to the gearing.  

I have recently changed the front sprocket on the 690 from a 15t to 16t, which has changed things slightly, but still not as good as the Husky.


Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Dwerg on October 01, 2015, 01:53:48 pm
690 purrrrrs like a panther being licked inappropriately by a tiger when rev'd at 6000 or just below. With a 16 front that should be around 140-145. Mine still does 130 with ease with 15-46 but revs quite high for constant 140. I'm probably going to change to 16-46
Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: chopperpilot on October 01, 2015, 03:18:21 pm
Forrie

Thank you for your 610/690 opinion. I'm sure the 610 will suit me perfectly, being on a DR 650 thumper currently.

I love the DR, it's only the poor suspension that's killing me off road. The carb and air box have been modded, so it's good on power.

I have acquired a DRZ 400 complete front end, and Mike Fuchs have quoted me on upgrading the rear of the DR.

Maybe it's time to get a red, white and black "Ready to Race" machine!


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Title: 690 vs 610
Post by: Geel Kat on October 02, 2015, 11:48:27 am
This thread is just confusing me now...  :eek7:
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Dwerg on October 02, 2015, 12:23:32 pm
Right, new topic created. Chat away
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: wolf skaap on October 02, 2015, 01:47:44 pm
Speculating here because although I've ridden a couple 610's I have not ridden a 690.

I found the excitement over all too soon on the 610's.
Just as they started producing a decent sized grin, and me anticipating a top end rush that will surely push me over the rubicon of bliss, the power simply stopped.

I suspect that the avid 690 rider might yearn for a bit more up top.

I've not been exactly forthcoming towards the 610 in the past and I must admit that I viewed the bike in the wrong context; it's an old school stroker and riding it like you would an XR, will reward you with ample amounts of grin. So all things considered, I was an idiot for expecting too much from an admittedly awesome bike.

Suspension wise, the 610 is tops.
I did find its rake a bit extreme but never went so far as to dropping the forks in the clamps a bit, in an attempt to make it feel less like riding a bike with an excessively long wheelbase.
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Rough Rider on October 02, 2015, 02:39:57 pm
I sold my 690 and bought a 610. I absolutely hated my 690 with a passion, and too this day I still rate it as the worst bike I have ever owned, and I have owned a dog or two. To be fair, my one was the first generation and had terrible fueling, it would flame out for no reason even at high RPM. And then would start up again no issue when the starter was pressed. KTM never came up with a solution; we tried every map ever developed for this bike. I believe that the new ones still have this issue but too a lesser degree. It scared the living bejesus out of me because I never knew when it was going to flame out, could be cranked over in the middle of a mountain pass for all I knew.

My 610 is also the first generation EFI bike and it has none of the issues the 690 had so KTM has no excuse there.  

The engine on my 690 was a bit of a screamer which was exacerbated by a full titanium system designed for top end power (I bought the bike with this system already fitted. I did the mods to try and give it more bottom end but nothing helped it remained anemic below 5000 RPM. It is no wonder that KTM were forced to up the capacity from a 650 to a 690.

I remember reading somewhere that when KTM developed this engine they tried to get twin characteristics from a single, hence the short stroke and higher piston speed. If you ask me they failed and should have just developed a nice 650 twin instead.

Title: Re: 690 vs 610
Post by: Rough Rider on October 02, 2015, 02:49:06 pm

And yes I know twins are much better suited for that, but I'm not interested in those - I need as much offroadability as I can get for those (short distance wise but quite long time wise) sections that I really enjoy.



You have obviously never ridden a Super Enduro off-road? Do yourself a favour and test a SE off-road, you will be amazed.
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Rough Rider on October 02, 2015, 03:18:41 pm
My 610 goes like a scolded rat; check out this video it blitzing everything in sight on a gravel pass in the Cederberg. It even blitzed me near the end after a pesky 990 held me up for awhile  :lol8:

On this particular ride I shredded, as in, wore out, a brand new Michelin Desert rear inside 700 km's indicting how well the 610 spins up its wheel in the corners.

https://www.youtube.com/v/tQ5msRnui2o
Title: Re: 690 vs 610
Post by: Xpat on October 02, 2015, 04:08:19 pm

You have obviously never ridden a Super Enduro off-road? Do yourself a favour and test a SE off-road, you will be amazed.


No I haven't ridden SE - it was always bike in my sights, but eventually reason prevailed. I do once/twice a year long distance remote trips on my own most often (last time I killed clutch on Tenere going up VZP on my own), so I need offroadability, combined with reliability and range - on that last trip I originally needed to have 700 km range if I wouldn't be able to make it up VZP. From my point of view (without riding one) SE should score high on the first one, questionably (this may be admittedly only perception) on the second one and fail on the third one (I could put lots of jerry cans on it, jeopardizing the one thing in shines on - offroadability.

When looking for the ultimate adv bike for me, I have ridden one of the early 690s and TE630 (which I was keener on due to percieved better reliability) - and as you, I was totally unimpressed with the 690 at the time - funnily enough I have already said here (and I think it was you who disagreed with me as you still do), that it felt like gutless twin, rather than meaty single (revvy with narrow power bank high up and no meaty bottom). So I bought 630, adventurized it with big tank, lynx and pannier racks and did few trips. It's fantastic once in the good stuff (Kaokoland, Lesotho and such), and much better that 690 (old or new) in gnarly stuff, but just too much of a chore getting there so I end up trailering it there instead of riding. Nothing wrong with that, but I like simplicity of just bike trips, with no stupid car to take over borders and store somewhere.

Dwerg let me ride his 2014 few weeks back, and I was very impressed. They made lots of changes to that engine since new, some of them I knew - bigger volume, some of them I didn't - twin sparks, throttle by wire improving fueling and consumption, and they made quite a difference (that, or my perceptions shifted greatly). It's still not a thumper, but it pull strong from 3500 - 4500 rpm and gets just better as you go up (the old 690 - nothing seemed to happen under 5500) - while thumpers inevitable peter out higher in the rev range. I still have a problem with the narrow gearbox, that makes it too revy for cruising, but decided to give it a try anyway and if everything goes well should be on one soon. That said - I wouldn't ride it in its standard form - I want long distance capability and stability (sacrifysing some agility of course), so I'm going to put on rally kit and keep 630 in its more enduro form for gnarly duty.
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Rough Rider on October 02, 2015, 04:26:10 pm
There is a guy in the UK who builds the ultimate adventure bike. He starts off with a 690 Rallye replica (the ones that raced in the Dakar when it still ended in Dakar). He then fits 450 Rallye tanks, which make the bike much more streamlined without losing capacity. He then toughens everything up and fits the strongest wheels known to man, he fits pannier racks, electrical connections, removes the road book etc etc.

Only problem is the base bike costs anywhere from Euro 15,000.00 and then depending on what you want you can add up to another Euro 30,000.00.

I would give my left testicle for one of these bikes  :drif:

(http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab64/Jake_KXF/21291390316_33b7698b8b_o_zpskgan6shw.jpg) (http://s850.photobucket.com/user/Jake_KXF/media/21291390316_33b7698b8b_o_zpskgan6shw.jpg.html)

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/new-sibirsky-extreme-bike-build.1083263/ (http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/new-sibirsky-extreme-bike-build.1083263/)



Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Rough Rider on October 02, 2015, 04:34:12 pm
This is his personal bike "BASIL"

(http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab64/Jake_KXF/10941309_599101050223945_5855948865629541089_n_zpsrtkimbon.jpg) (http://s850.photobucket.com/user/Jake_KXF/media/10941309_599101050223945_5855948865629541089_n_zpsrtkimbon.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: wolf skaap on October 02, 2015, 04:58:55 pm
Isn't that just silly, given that they don't even race 690's anymore?
Or am i missing something?
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Xpat on October 02, 2015, 05:06:23 pm
That is what I'm after - ideally for less moola.

That bike is new Walter Colebatch'es bike of the Sibirski Extreme fame (http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/sibirsky-extreme-2012-the-toughest-ride-of-them-all.834987/ (http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/sibirsky-extreme-2012-the-toughest-ride-of-them-all.834987/), http://www.sibirskyextreme.com (http://www.sibirskyextreme.com)) replacing his heavily modified X-Challenge he used till now.

And I think it was designed by Lyndon Poskitt, Dakar finisher who is now on the quest to go around the world on one - with a twist - he rides to Races all around the world like Mongolia rally and then takes part in those (maybe somebody should let him know about Amageza): http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/races-to-places-taking-an-adventure-ride-to-the-next-level.958364/ (http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/races-to-places-taking-an-adventure-ride-to-the-next-level.958364/).

The kit itself is I think this one (made by KTM Basel - hence the Basil name): http://ktmbasel.ch/ktm-basel-690-quest-the-ultimate-ultralight-travel-bike.html (http://ktmbasel.ch/ktm-basel-690-quest-the-ultimate-ultralight-travel-bike.html)

And to me, this local one, doesn't seem to be too far off and much cheaper (though still bloody expensive of course):

http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=106243.0;attach=375008;image (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=106243.0;attach=375008;image)
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Xpat on October 02, 2015, 05:08:35 pm
Here is the link to the Races to Places video channel, with tons of professionally done videos and commentary on differentces between  690  and 690RR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utXZKuo8iws&list=PLebjQbsuu9jDfukT2wZK8c2X6Uz_U4VJe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utXZKuo8iws&list=PLebjQbsuu9jDfukT2wZK8c2X6Uz_U4VJe)
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Kamanya on October 02, 2015, 05:33:10 pm
I did invite Lyndon. Maybe next year?

This thread highlights a gap....

I wish KTM would wake the fuck up and do a medium twin. Something good enough, that with little effort can be raced.

Light, 700 parallel twin with long travel excellent suspension, good power, meaty torque, fuel efficient and great handling and carrying capacity.

If they redid the 640 model with all this, it would cause a big split in the market; many riders who are forced to stick with the 950/990 or regretfully move up to the 1190's because there's nothing for them left, would come down to what they really want. Many of the 600/650 class would move up to the better handling and power.

Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: Xpat on October 02, 2015, 05:42:00 pm
I did invite Lyndon. Maybe next year?

This thread highlights a gap....

I wish KTM would wake the fuck up and do a medium twin. Something good enough, that with little effort can be raced.

Light, 700 parallel twin with long travel excellent suspension, good power, meaty torque, fuel efficient and great handling and carrying capacity.

If they redid the 640 model with all this, it would cause a big split in the market; many riders who are forced to stick with the 950/990 or regretfully move up to the 1190's because there's nothing for them left, would come down to what they really want. Many of the 600/650 class would move up to the better handling and power.


I for one would be happy with 690 with wider ratio gearbox. I don't necessarily need more power or smoother engine and I think additional weight may not be worth it. But then I cannot ride big bike through sand at the speed you can.
Title: Re: 690 vs Husky 610
Post by: pietas on October 02, 2015, 07:41:49 pm
The bikes Lyndon Poskitt modify are 690 rfr bikes. The factory racing bikes. They already contain all the fuel tanks one would require. The racing bikes are then turned into more adventure styled bikes. All to the clients requirements. But most certainly not cheap to get there but oh so nice