Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => KTM LC4 400/610/640 & 690 => Topic started by: malJohann on May 30, 2008, 04:08:58 pm

Title: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: malJohann on May 30, 2008, 04:08:58 pm
What can you dogs tell me about KTM 640 Adventure reliability, and please, I want the good as well as the bad. Also, is it a good commuter?
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Metaljockey on May 31, 2008, 10:40:19 am
First, no, it's not a good commuter.

Reliability - I'll say it is reasonably reliable. A lot of owners swear by them and had no trouble from their bikes. There are also more than a couple that swear at them and had endless problems.

One thing to look out for is the pre 2003 models, they have a dodgy carrier bearing on the output shaft. When it collapses it breaks shit, you should change it as soon as you can, apparently it gives no warning before it goes.

Also the 2001-2003 has a defect that has the spokes break and then enter the rim and puncture the front tyre. It took them three years to admit there's a problem, but there is a recall now and they replace those rims free of charge.

Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: edgy on May 31, 2008, 12:26:37 pm
Must say...awesome bike to ride,but i am nervous of them.Feel much more secure with the XT!
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Giraffe on May 31, 2008, 01:44:10 pm
Best bike I've ever had. I sold mine yesterday and still have a tear in my eye. The bike is not a great commuter but it is not as bad as people make it out to be. There is very little to compare with it when it comes to off road. It will take almost everything that you throw at it and comes back looking for more. I sold mine with just under 8000km and never had a days shite with it. I give it a huge thumbs up :ricky:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: The TRANSPORTER on May 31, 2008, 01:49:20 pm
Commuter...NO...i dont like em... :pot: :pot:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Andy660 on June 01, 2008, 10:23:49 am
Yes and you can even  make a sidecar out of it .

(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p131/hunday/KtmSidecar.jpg)
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: malJohann on June 02, 2008, 08:46:25 am
Okay, so don't buy a pre-2003 and it's reliable to at least 8,000km. Why is it not a good commuter?
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: krazy-eyes on June 02, 2008, 09:50:10 am
i'll try and be objective here....

i got one (a 640) with 600km on the clock. it was 14 months old.

the carb was giving trouble from day one - it died 4 times on the way home.
KTM couldnt fix it in 4 days and were asking mechanics across the street for ideas, but everyone was scratching their heads.
eventually they swopped it for a new carb under warranty (which had already expired 2 months prior)
so thumbs up for that, but it still didnt fix the spluttering problem which occured between 3 and 4 thousand revs.

i lived with it, but it made day to day riding absolute hell - imagine going in between cars with a bike that shoots forward one moment, and then dives the next, uncontrollably, when all you want to do is match the speed of the traffic around you.

that was the 1st straw.
the last straw?
the one day i got home and saw that the bashplate was wet. "strange" i thought, "i dont remember going through water."
well it wasnt water, it was oil, coming from the crank case. oil? on a bike with 1000km?

i gave the bike back to the dealer pronto!

i dont see why others reckon it's not for commuting, because it certainly wasnt made for open roads.
offroad it's good, but heavy - it aint no scrambler.
so, if it wasnt made for commuting, offroad, or open roads, there isnt much left.

i'd say it is fine for commuting, but anything over 80km/h is a living hell.
there is zero wind protection, it vibrates, the steering is vague, and it nosedives like a rodeo horse when you brake.

it is running at full revs long before you see 160, not that you want to travel that kind of speed on it anyway.
overtaking feels dangerous unless you kick it down a gear, which has the engine screaming and vibrating in protest even more.

ok, so that was the 640.
the 950 was marginally better in that it had power to overtake and cruise at 140 and not feel like the engine might explode at any given moment.
but it still had no wind protection, and it comes with it's own set of worries.

it came out the factory with a loose headbearing assembly.
i had to take the whole front end off three times before it was tight enough.

the water pump seal went on mine. how did i find out?
oil in the radiator.
according to KTM, oil in the coolant is "normal".
OK........... :-\
further research on my part revealed that it had a defective waterpump seal, a popular 950 problem.

the 950/990 also has a legendary airlock that forms in the two fuel tanks.
the two tanks are connecteds via a hose, but for some reason an airlock forms and suddenly the fuel pisses out the breather on the one side, while the other side is empty.

then, it also dies at traffic lights.
it just cuts out....
no warning.
dead.
then you look like an idiot trying to restart the bike while the light is green and everyone behind you is cursing.
no one knows what causes this.

dont forget the dreaded headshake.

ive heard that the 950/990's have a battery drain problem too, but cannot confirm that.


with all due respect to all KTM owners out there, my conclusion is:
the only reason you ride a KTM is because you dont know that there is a world of better bikes out there, and you refuse to even contemplate that perhaps KTM is overhyped - kind of like land rover owners.

ive owned 2 KTM's and 4 land rovers. you reach a point where you ask yourself "why am i torturing myself like this ?"
in the mean time, ive ridden all of the BMW products, from the 1200GSA, 1200GS, 800GS, 650GS, down to the x country.

all i can say is - KTM owners dont know what they are missing out on.

it says "ready to race"
they dont say anything about reliability or comfort.  ;)
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: LuckyStriker on June 02, 2008, 10:02:21 am
I fell in love with the looks of the 640 a long time ago
So many times I have gone to the KTM shop and stared at the 640.

I came very, very close to buying one but ducked out at the last minute.
I wish I could hear convincing good news about this bike but it seems to be something of a lucky packet.
After you sign that check you either get a treasure that is slightly difficult to live with of a throw-away POS.
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Davie_sprocket on June 02, 2008, 12:10:01 pm
I would disregard krazy-eyes opinion - fawk the man drives a Land Rover  >:D

Seriously I don't agree with with him on most of his opinions, but everyones got their opinion ( I think he is a GS type guy anyway  ;D)

Ok a bit more serious

My 640 has now has 25 000km

Its been in a few times for a leaking base gasket (a common fault on the 05 models), easily resolved when they did what I asked them eventually (replace with the metal gasket and use a sealer) Never leaked again for the past 17 000 km)

One day something came off the stator and trashed the pick up - VERY unusual and the bike was long time out of warrenty period - Repaired by KTM free of charge.

A mate (Smurf) bought his 640 at the same time and never has any sort of problem, same milage as me.

I think it is an awesome bike (had a 380 eXC 2 smoke before)

I feel it has plenty of wind deflection up to about 130
It is heavy but suspension handles it well (only bike that would come close is a 525 with a large tank - besides servicing)
Traffic - always puts a smile on my face
Steering feel - yes vague, but would expect that with the steering angle - GET USED TO IT!
If you don't like the steering diving on breaking get a GS!
Vibration - yes it vibrates- depends on what you are used to - get a GS otherwise!
Overtaking- NEVER a PROBLEM!!!!!

A 640 is not a bike that one needs to take to the dealer - if you like servicing your own bike then the 640 is the one for you.

THERE IS NO BIKE OUT THERE THAT I WOULD SWOP MY 640 FOR!!!!!!!!!!



O about commuting _ Not the best option,- just too expensive as a commuter. Not the bike you want to clock milage on - save it for the trips - eats tires on tar, but that depends on how happy you are on the throttle - not easy as the sound of the Akro in 2 and third is nice






Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: krazy-eyes on June 02, 2008, 01:25:41 pm
in my defence, i DID get rid of the landy  ;D

ok, maybe i came across too strong, the ktm's have their positives like most power in their respective class of displacement, but it comes at a price.

i am just wowed by the fact that, for SO long i refused to believe that there was anything superior to a KTM.  :-[
being stubborn is a a problem all KTM'ers suffer from.
my illusion came tumbling down the other day when i set foot on a BMW for the 1st time.

power, comfort, handling, and service - it all seems better than the junk from austria

Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: LuckyStriker on June 02, 2008, 01:54:11 pm
Hell hath no fury like a biker scorned

you and Adventurer should get together and swap stories ;D
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Adventurer on June 02, 2008, 03:31:25 pm
Hell hath no fury like a biker scorned

you and Adventurer should get together and swap stories ;D

We'd probably come to blows.... ;D ;D
IMO KE needs to buy himself a GS and be happy.
The bikes are good, it just depends on the staff you deal with.
I've had 3 Beemers in the family, IMO the 1150 GSA was the best GS they've built, me on a 1200? Not likely.
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: krazy-eyes on June 02, 2008, 04:31:50 pm
Hell hath no fury like a biker scorned

you and Adventurer should get together and swap stories ;D

 he he  :imaposer:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Adventurer on June 02, 2008, 06:05:11 pm
KE, are you buying a GS 650/Dakar? If so you can rest assured your hassles are over, that is a bullet proof scoot. I think after all the kark you've bought over the years, FOUR Landies.....it's about time you rest. ;D ;D
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: krazy-eyes on June 03, 2008, 09:29:59 am
KE, are you buying a GS 650/Dakar? If so you can rest assured your hassles are over, that is a bullet proof scoot. I think after all the kark you've bought over the years, FOUR Landies.....it's about time you rest. ;D ;D

looking for a GSA.
will try to buy new so it's still under gaurantee etc.
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Boerbok on June 03, 2008, 02:24:27 pm
I would not put money on it - again...

Bought a brand new 2002 640 Adv. Sold it at 5000km, and good riddance!

From day 1 I had:
- a cracked triple clamp - had to wait weeks for parts before the dealer fixed it
- an oil leak on the gearbox (after various attempts to fix it by not spliting the engine cases, the dealer eventually had to split the cases to fix it)  :eek7:
- lost the air screw on the carb (vibrated loose). Had to wait 6 weeks for them to ship a stupid brass screw from Austria
- almost lost one of the MAIN nuts holding the cylinder on the engine. It fell out (due to vibration again), and luckily I found it laying on the skid plate! One of the other's was so loose I could almost turn it by hand.
- Exhaust header leaked where it attached to the engine. Dealer "fixed" it, but the fix only lasted a week.

Bike spent more time at the dealer or waiting for spares than at my house in the 18 months I had it.

It was a great bike on paper, but owning one? Never again! Maybe I was just not hands-on enough to tame it... I dunno  ???

At that time I was living 160km from the nearest dealer, which only made the experience much much worse

Have been riding BMW's ever since, and could not be happier. They might not be "Ready to Race", but in my experience they are a helluva lot more reliable, which is kinda important to me since I am using my bike for commuting

Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: bradleys on June 04, 2008, 11:32:07 am
I have had a few different bikes at the moment i have a beta 525 for enduros it has a ktm motor no sh*t from it.I also have a 640 adv THE BEST BEAST EVER.I have had no trouble with it,been all over,ridden to Nam,dirt all the way from cape town with 4 other 640,s no hassles.As davey sprocket says great bike to comute, have lots of fun.Iknow guys who bought bmw,s and had problems,honda,s yammies and suzuki,s So what ever you get hopefulley you wont have a friday ass bike.Just  go and enjoy the out doors with fellow dogs :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky:.                           
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: the_wes on June 04, 2008, 01:19:50 pm
it sounds like, from what i'm hearing, buy the newest one you can get? like a 2005?

Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: malJohann on June 04, 2008, 01:28:10 pm
it sounds like, from what i'm hearing, buy the newest one you can get? like a 2005?

Or get a BMW thumper and slap on some after-market tanks. I just sooo love the look of the KTM, but lots of things that once was ugly to me became beautiful when I saw the real nature of the beast. So, I'm sure I'll warm to either a G650 xChallenge or G450X eventually (more likely the 450).
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: the_wes on June 04, 2008, 01:29:25 pm
G650 xChallenge with a touratech 23l tank is seriously appealing!!!!
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: shark_za on June 04, 2008, 01:41:57 pm
45o is a genuine enduro machine, going to be hell riding it as a dual purpose.
On the pocket as well as the ass.
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: SGB on June 07, 2008, 12:38:52 am
being stubborn is a a problem all KTM'ers suffer from.
Are you sure?  I can see that the poor buying decisions you made in the past have hurt to the extent that you now want a new BMW.  Why don't you buy a second hand BMW from a dodgy non-BMW dealer?  One with 600 km from ABC midnight bikes down the road, I am sure you will be confident after a short ride around the block that it is in perfect shape, and you will not be worried that it is not on a BMW shop floor.  And he will let you take it before you are committed to paying for it too.  Great guys.   ??? 8)

A new KTM might have made you happy too, who knows.... 

Just take care not to generalize too much in an attempt to hide the pain and your own mistakes.  You must buy the BM and enjoy it, but justifying it on the basis of the "bad" of the KTM's and not on the "good" of the BM just opens you up for more disappointment.  Look for the bike that does it for you, buy it, ride it, and enjoy it.  It's that simple. ;)   

  Hope your new GSA and X5 will render your KTM / Landrover days only a distant nightmare from your poor past.   8) O0
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Mark Hardy on June 07, 2008, 02:47:28 am
being stubborn is a a problem all KTM'ers suffer from.
Are you sure?  I can see that the poor buying decisions you made in the past have hurt to the extent that you now want a new BMW.  Why don't you buy a second hand BMW from a dodgy non-BMW dealer?  One with 600 km from ABC midnight bikes down the road, I am sure you will be confident after a short ride around the block that it is in perfect shape, and you will not be worried that it is not on a BMW shop floor.  And he will let you take it before you are committed to paying for it too.  Great guys.   ??? 8)

A new KTM might have made you happy too, who knows.... 

Just take care not to generalize too much in an attempt to hide the pain and your own mistakes.  You must buy the BM and enjoy it, but justifying it on the basis of the "bad" of the KTM's and not on the "good" of the BM just opens you up for more disappointment.  Look for the bike that does it for you, buy it, ride it, and enjoy it.  It's that simple. ;)   

  Hope your new GSA and X5 will render your KTM / Landrover days only a distant nightmare from your poor past.   8) O0

Well said
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Adventurer on June 07, 2008, 09:49:50 am
Good for you KE, sending your moans to a BMW dealer will make a world of difference.....
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Lito on June 07, 2008, 12:04:35 pm
with all due respect to all KTM owners out there, my conclusion is:
the only reason you ride a KTM is because you dont know that there is a world of better bikes out there, and you refuse to even contemplate that perhaps KTM is overhyped - kind of like land rover owners.

all i can say is - KTM owners dont know what they are missing out on.

it says "ready to race"
they dont say anything about reliability or comfort.  ;)

Holy crap :o

This is an arrogant bs statement if I ever read one. I for one, tested a lot of BM products (fine machines), and owned one till it was stolen. I chose the KTM, because it offers something the BMW cant. 

I wont mention what that is, to stop the brand bashing potential war that you have started. Crikey, K - I thought we all got over that hurdle.

I for one think that BMW offer the best aftermarket service on the market (but Nivea will disagree vehemently currently) and their bikes are awesome for their application. But still I persist in the Orange fold as its the best bike for MY application.


Your comments are so left field its ridiculous and I hope guys can see past your post.


being stubborn is a a problem all KTM'ers suffer from.

power, comfort, handling, and service - it all seems better than the junk from austria



Oh Lord - I didnt know they grew WHINE in JHB....



Of course, I could say that all junk people come from Joburg, but that would be a legitimate response from my experience with these two posts. Alas - I wont - cos I know many fine people from there. Sounds like being stubborn is something that you suffer from - dont lump us Orange owners in with this crap.



Apart from that, I hope your BMW serves you brilliantly. And if it doesnt, Lord help you. Will you go Japanese from there?

Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: sidetrack on June 07, 2008, 03:52:30 pm




Apart from that, I hope your BMW serves you brilliantly. And if it doesnt, Lord help you. Will you go Japanese from there?



Should have done that from the start  :peepwall: :pot: ;D
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: krazy-eyes on June 09, 2008, 10:55:40 am
being stubborn is a a problem all KTM'ers suffer from.
Are you sure?  I can see that the poor buying decisions you made in the past have hurt to the extent that you now want a new BMW.  Why don't you buy a second hand BMW from a dodgy non-BMW dealer?  One with 600 km from ABC midnight bikes down the road, I am sure you will be confident after a short ride around the block that it is in perfect shape, and you will not be worried that it is not on a BMW shop floor.  And he will let you take it before you are committed to paying for it too.  Great guys.   ??? 8)

A new KTM might have made you happy too, who knows.... 

Just take care not to generalize too much in an attempt to hide the pain and your own mistakes.  You must buy the BM and enjoy it, but justifying it on the basis of the "bad" of the KTM's and not on the "good" of the BM just opens you up for more disappointment.  Look for the bike that does it for you, buy it, ride it, and enjoy it.  It's that simple. ;)   

  Hope your new GSA and X5 will render your KTM / Landrover days only a distant nightmare from your poor past.   8) O0


geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!

i was really refering to the fact that a lot of ktm'ers refuse to accept that just maybe, there are other products that offer more in terms of handling and comfort - i think all makes suffer from their respective let downs when it comes to reliability.

and just for the record: i bought my 950 new, and a 640 (or any bike for that matter) with 600km on the clock shouldnt leak oil and have a carb problem.

 ;)
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: krazy-eyes on June 09, 2008, 11:01:50 am
and owned one till it was stolen.

sorry lito, that bike wasnt stolen...........it ran away from all the abuse you were putting it through, and your 950 adv comitted suicide by diving in front of a car  :imaposer:  >:D

Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: malJohann on June 09, 2008, 11:20:02 am
Thanks for the input. :eek7:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Adventurer on June 09, 2008, 12:31:56 pm
being stubborn is a a problem all KTM'ers suffer from.
Are you sure?  I can see that the poor buying decisions you made in the past have hurt to the extent that you now want a new BMW.  Why don't you buy a second hand BMW from a dodgy non-BMW dealer?  One with 600 km from ABC midnight bikes down the road, I am sure you will be confident after a short ride around the block that it is in perfect shape, and you will not be worried that it is not on a BMW shop floor.  And he will let you take it before you are committed to paying for it too.  Great guys.   ??? 8)

A new KTM might have made you happy too, who knows.... 

Just take care not to generalize too much in an attempt to hide the pain and your own mistakes.  You must buy the BM and enjoy it, but justifying it on the basis of the "bad" of the KTM's and not on the "good" of the BM just opens you up for more disappointment.  Look for the bike that does it for you, buy it, ride it, and enjoy it.  It's that simple. ;)   

  Hope your new GSA and X5 will render your KTM / Landrover days only a distant nightmare from your poor past.   8) O0


geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!

i was really refering to the fact that a lot of ktm'ers refuse to accept that just maybe, there are other products that offer more in terms of handling and comfort - i think all makes suffer from their respective let downs when it comes to reliability.

and just for the record: i bought my 950 new, and a 640 (or any bike for that matter) with 600km on the clock shouldnt leak oil and have a carb problem.

 ;)

I still don't understand why you sent your letter of complaint to a BMW dealer. What has this got to do with them? Or are you looking for a good discount when you buy your GSA?
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: Lito on June 09, 2008, 12:33:12 pm
and owned one till it was stolen.

sorry lito, that bike wasnt stolen...........it ran away from all the abuse you were putting it through, and your 950 adv comitted suicide by diving in front of a car  :imaposer:  >:D



 :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer: :ricky:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: ROOI on June 09, 2008, 12:41:10 pm




Apart from that, I hope your BMW serves you brilliantly. And if it doesnt, Lord help you. Will you go Japanese from there?



Should have done that from the start  :peepwall: :pot: ;D

+10000
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: SGB on June 09, 2008, 04:41:59 pm
Started with:
being stubborn is a a problem all KTM'ers suffer from.

Now moving to:
Quote
"a lot of ktm'ers refuse to accept that just maybe, there are other products that offer more in terms of handling and comfort"

"All" includes me, and "a lot of" might do too.  And handling and comfort means different things to different people.  I will accept anything you say if you present it as your own opinion / perspective, but leave others out of it.  Why do you get up tight about "all" and "a lot of" KTM riders?  Share your own experiences (and I have always liked your stories when you did that) but leave me and others out of it if you don't have facts.  Just accept that sometimes you are in for a hiding in life and many of us have been there.  That 640 saw you coming, and you just have not found the problem.  It could be something simple like the plug cap, and oil comes out through a seal / gasket / o-ring.  Should be easy to fix.  Or it could be a complete lemon, who knows.  Lets present it like that, simple..... 

Quote
all i can say is - KTM owners dont know what they are missing out on
.   How do you know?
There might be some KTM riders out there who have done a few miles on BM's.  Irrelevant...... 

Go for a ride and share your story!  That is what we are here for.   :)





Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: THROTTLE JOCKEY on June 09, 2008, 05:43:56 pm
What can you dogs tell me about KTM 640 Adventure reliability, and please, I want the good as well as the bad. Also, is it a good commuter?
Buy a yamaha xt660 with the extreme conversion (or do it yourself) it does off road very well and also serves as a good commuter.
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: edgy on June 09, 2008, 06:49:36 pm
 :peepwall:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: THROTTLE JOCKEY on June 09, 2008, 06:54:51 pm
:peepwall:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: edgy on June 09, 2008, 07:03:13 pm
Just ducking incase of shit flying on this oh so touchy subject ;D
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: sidetrack on June 09, 2008, 10:52:24 pm
Buy a yamaha xt660 with the extreme conversion (or do it yourself) it does off road very well and also serves as a good commuter.
Unfortunetly it's a lemon and not race ready  :peepwall:
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: edgy on June 10, 2008, 06:32:17 am
But it dont leak oil!
Title: Re: ..KTM 640 Adventure reliability...
Post by: boosted gp on June 10, 2008, 08:16:42 am
Hi Guys,

I have owned many bikes in my riding career (24yrs). I might have been lucky, I might not ride my bikes into the ground, I might just maintain them better than a dealer would, but I have owned 5 ktms ranging from 380, 525, 990, 640 and here is my take.

All have been EXTREMELY reliable, I have not had 1 days shite with any of them. My latest one is the 640 and am loving it.

But lets be realistic - oil leaks happen, its called mass production and its bound to hpen that a faulty gasket or torque wrench gets in somewhere.

What I do agree on with most of you is how the dealer handles the problem. I have seen dealers get a bike with an oil leak and just tighten the gasket, clean the bike and give it back.

thats just wrong, it leaking for a reason and you need to find out why.

My perception of BMW (bikes and cars): bmw makes a great product. they are well engineered and reliable. I feel they are designed with this in mind: "BMW bikes will get you there safely, reliably and in comfort, albeit with a loss in fun factor" with this in mind, most bmw are at home on the tar and are able to go off road. like a 70/30 split.

I will not own a BMW because I feel their customer service sucks so in the end their product as a WHOLE fails.

KTM on the other hand: KTM makes a great product too, but they appeal to a different market. they are well engineered (the best in the offroad world) and for me - reliable. KTM are designed with this in mind: "KTM will get you there safely and reliable, but with a ton of fun factor" KTM don't build comfy bikes, cos when you off road on one you are having too much fun to notice the seat is a bit too hard etc. KTM's are at home in the dirt, but can go on the tar too (70dirt/30tar).

I like KTM because I love offroad, and love working on my bike myself, I do all the maintainence myself and that way I know i have used the correct torque wrench and not stripped every nut, then turn it back half a turn like some mechanics do.

Everyone has their opinions, thats what makes this world what it is. you can't shoot someone down for their opinion.

KTMS work best FOR ME, but BMW may work best for you.

Mike