Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Riding: Plan, Report and Racing => Racing Section => Topic started by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 10, 2016, 11:42:36 pm

Title: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 10, 2016, 11:42:36 pm
Ok as I am warned by everyone in the family that I'm getting to old for intense bike riding I finally decided to go on 4 wheels. Yup, 4 wheels in this fashion is also 'Adventure Riding'  :biggrin:

As Mike and I did build a Formula Vee single seater we have a rough idea what this involve. (Or so we hope)  My initial plan was to go single seater but due to the limited (MSA) race events for this class in SA we had to go two seater.  SANORA/MSA  (The Donaldson series) are way to exclusive and expensive for normal privateers.  WOMSA, the 'other' motorsport group in SA do cater for SideBySides etc. I could not find the link to their 'Rulebook' on the site so will phone tomorrow.  Will report back as soon as I know.  Ultimately the car must be designed and built according to acceptable regulations.  Everyone refers to FIA (europe) or SCORE (america) regs.  Even Dakar (FIA/FIM) refers to SCORE to allow the American trucks (Robby Gordon type).  The FIA specify almost everything whereas SCORE do the same but without all the angles and dimensions.

Anything in the two seater (side by side) class are basically limited to the Polaris RZR which also requires a massive 'rebuild' to be competition legal w.r.t. roll cage etc etc. I had a long look at those at 2016 WC Baja.  Then do not even talk about cost and reliability. (Clutch and belt) There are a few locally designed and built cars but none that suit our criteria. They use 1600cc or 2l motors which fall outside the FIA/SCORE T3 light class which are limited to 1000cc and must have 'mudguards' etc etc.

Phase one:
Select a donor vehicle to use as evaluation platform. It will be much quicker and cheaper to start with a rolling chassis and work from there. (Like what the rich people do with a RZR.  We will stick to 2x4 for cost and complexity. (The Dakar winning Peugeot is 2x4  :) )

Pic 1.  G-Force Baleka buggy. R 145 000.00 with 2l Golf motor and Audi box. Pros: nice, fast reliable. Cons: single seat, open wheels, exposed fuel etc etc.

Pic 2. RZR with tube frame. K@k expensive and frame not FIA legal.

Pic 3. Tim Coronel 2015 Buggy. Single seat, Hyabusha motor. Only for the rich. (go and search the running cost on these (R 18 000 clutch every 10 000km)

Pic 4. Cheap Chinese buggy. OK, not so cheap. R 150 000 new (2015 price) K@k engine and unreliable CVT 'gearbox'  Rollcage TOTALLY not rally spec.  BUT at the right price it could be a perfect starting point. AND IT IS ROADWORTHY!!

Pic 5. Simple roll cage upgrade to FIA spec.

OK, the hunt is on. Looking for a donor car. OK, got one. Need some work on the motor (told you motor is crap) but otherwise in good condition.

Pic 6.  After an eventful day at Dirt n Dust (Or Dirt n Mud).  I think it will be an acceptable donor for the project.  Cant remember when last did I had so much fun without being scared.

Rest to follow.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on July 11, 2016, 01:01:07 am
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Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on July 11, 2016, 08:08:47 am
Damn! That looks like fun! I have always thought I would like to race one of these - I lack talent to race a bike, started too late - but this might be the answer!

I follow with interest!!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 11, 2016, 08:27:18 am
OK, a bit of background.

These cars are imported by Toyscom and are licenced as a Beach buggy.  They are sold all over the world as 'toys' and one is actually raced in Ghana or somewhere in Africa.  The biggest drawback is parts for the engine, brake pads etc. Although these engines (800cc V Twin CF MOTO) are based on a Can-Am or something years ago they are defnetaly not reliable for rally use.  The other issue is the CVT gearbox.  Those belts and slip clutches are not 'really' designed for long term use. In France they actually run a 1600cc model.

After we did our research on the buggy we made a few basic decisions:
1. We will replace the motor with a standard 1100cc fwd car motor to fall in the 'Lite' class.
2. We will stick to 2 wheel drive for simplicity and weight.  The FIA rules also favor 2wd for various reasons. We will look into a limited slip/ lockable diff.
3. All parts will be 'off the shelf' where possible.  Full running gear will come from the same model donor car to simplify maintenance. (Chevvy spark/Kia/Hyundai)
4. We will document and start our own design once the evaluation is complete, actually during.  Full roadworthy is high on the list so it can be driven to the 'playpen'  :biggrin:

Till later, I need to work to earn money.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: ktmmer on July 11, 2016, 08:43:13 am
following
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on July 11, 2016, 08:58:36 am
You should have seen the quad with the Hayabusa engine in last weekend at the Koës Rally.
That engine should make that buggy move!!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Snafu on July 11, 2016, 09:05:58 am
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Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Matewis on July 11, 2016, 09:35:27 am
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Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 11, 2016, 09:44:24 am
You should have seen the quad with the Hayabusa engine in last weekend at the Koës Rally.
That engine should make that buggy move!!

Yup they are AWSOME and also the preferred engine, BUT look at running cost and suddenly everything goes out the door. The cost of a diff and reverse (Quaife) will cost more than a complete 1100cc drivetrain. Most rallies where these buggies are raced are actually 'short distance' less than 800km.

Also something I can not decide on is whether that amount of power is needed other than showing off.   :pot:  FIA limit top speed  to 150kph and traction is only as good as the tires.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Herklaas on July 11, 2016, 09:53:51 am
 :sip: Looking good, In the eighties I had a sandmaster two seater with a 1200 VW Beetle engine, towed it with a A frame. It looked a lot like the one in the last photo, but was not as nice though.
Will be looking out for this thread.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on July 11, 2016, 10:56:55 am
Also something I can not decide on is whether that amount of power is needed other than showing off.   :pot:  FIA limit top speed  to 150kph and traction is only as good as the tires.

Looking at Coronel youtube vids I got the idea that his buggy was 'underpowered'. Think he use a bike engine with heaps of power?
He also mentioned they did some mods to lighten the buggy for better performance. 
But then again it was for the Dakar.
What type of terrain are you aiming to do.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 11, 2016, 11:05:20 am
Looking at Coronel youtube vids I got the idea that his buggy was 'underpowered'. Think he use a bike engine with heaps of power?
He also mentioned they did some mods to lighten the buggy for better performance.  
But then again it was for the Dakar.
What type of terrain are you aiming to do.

He use a Hyabusha. See specs

Amageza and other long distance rallies.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Geel Kat on July 11, 2016, 11:11:22 am
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Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on July 11, 2016, 12:13:52 pm
He use a Hyabusha. See specs
Amageza and other long distance rallies.

Yip that is my point or my question.

That is almost 180kW in a fairly light frame, yet on the videos it sound like the buggy struggles in the terrain and he mentioned that they went to a lot of effort to shed some weight last year.

Do you need such power due to the terrain? What power are you aiming for?
I suppose Amageza will also aim for similar terrain to Dakar.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: SteveD on July 11, 2016, 12:34:43 pm
What happened to the cars that used to race Roof of Africa? Those things were awesome.
Mr Adie, out of respect to your fellow bikers, you may need to add two more requirements:
:peepwall:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Africa_Sam on July 11, 2016, 12:36:09 pm
Adie - have a look at this site for buggy plans:
http://badlandbuggy.com/product/megalodon/ (http://badlandbuggy.com/product/megalodon/)
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 11, 2016, 02:08:36 pm
Adie - have a look at this site for buggy plans:
http://badlandbuggy.com/product/megalodon/ (http://badlandbuggy.com/product/megalodon/)


See snips from FIA/SCORE regs below and you will see why more than 80% buggies out there are nit to spec.  We can get various plans at around R 1600.00 but NONE that comply to 'real' regulations.  I know you might think these regs is an overkill but if you can walk away after a mishap it might change the outlook.

the last pic is valid for all classes except T4 (Trucks)

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Black_Hawk on July 11, 2016, 02:27:44 pm
This is goinig to be another interesting thread

subscribed  :sip:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 11, 2016, 09:34:52 pm
A bit more info:

As these buggies love to overheat this particular one had another issue.  The rear exhaust seems to keep coming loose and then melt the cam chain tensioner. We towed it home and start to repair the 'damage' (Pic 1 the melted tensioner)  Ok all OK and Mike and I dashed off to a friend to collect a bike when all hell broke loose. STEAM EVERYWHERE

The bottom radiator can failed and all water drained out. Needles to say we towed it back to the plot. More inspection revealed that the nr2 head gasket blew.  Ok, a bit more work will be required to get it through roadworthy before we start the 'Rallyfication'.

I decided it might be easier to remove the motor and do a full checkout. Pic2 (Balancing act) Easier this way to work underneath. Ok, we need some spares. Nada, fokol not even from Alibaba.  The americans do not even answer my emails.  Ok, I grew up on the farm, we boere fix anything with a screwdriver and pliers, if not fixed and a hammer might cause damage the problem must be electrical. So a 0.45mm head and barrel was skimmed on a glass to less than 0.01mm. (PIC 3) Valves etc was still in good nick although there are wear marks on the camshaft 'bearings' in the head. Head gasket (multi layer metal type) was slightly warped but nothing better than INDIAN HEAD. All other gaskets was manufactured from Veloid. We had to take the alternator cover off to reach the cam chain tensioner bottom screw. PIC 4 - Homemade puller to remove magneto wheel.  rings etc still in good order so all went back without a problem.

Ok all assembled. Ready for the compression test. WOW 10BAR !!!. Piston 1 (untouched) was on 9.2Bar. I only did a proper leak test on the piston I worked on and it kept the pressure.  For what ever reason I never did a full test on Piston 1 I dont know. >:D I did noticed a few bubbles in the radiator hose but did not worry to much. (I like to live on the ragged edge!!.

Ok now to fix the radiator.  Initially it looked as if water only 'seeped' out at the bottom tank seal. Before I just tried to crimp the tabs a bit more I took it to the radiator shop.  NAAAA big leak, bottom tank must be replaced. Where in China will I find a tank? Pratley Steel, and some of my other 'magic epoxies' could not stop the leak. In fact it actually just leaked more!!. BUT the guys at ROCKFOX can do anyting  :3some: So out with the alu plate and new tank done. (Will post pic later) fits 100%.

The exhaust was one of the original causes of the problems.  It got opened up, repaired and welded up again.  The frame where the exhaust mount was a bit skew so we pressed it straight.  Now the exhaust fit 'stressfree'. PIC 5.

OK ready for testing.  We did a few loops at the back on the plot to see how she perform.  Strange rattles etc but otherwise all OK.  One of the other issues with these cars is the radiator position.  There are very little airflow (almost a vacuum) at the back.  I rewired the thermostatic fan and made sure it kick in at 75C. Rather too cold than too warm.

DIRT N DUST HERE WE COME.

About 2 km from the house the vibration/rattle we felt was much more 'intense' and then the left rear wheel passed me. PIC 6 We never tightened the wheel nuts a week ago when the brakes was serviced. Not to much damage (Rockfox can fix  :ricky: ) and we went on our merry way to a most enjoyable day in the Dirt n MUD.

On our way back I did push it slightly and she easily reached 123kph.  The temp went up to 90C for the first time.  At home I noticed that the bubbles I saw in the water are still there so there are still a head gasket issue.  A quick test indicate that Piston 1 also suffered some warping during the initial overheat.  Will do a quick head skim this week before it go for roadworthy.

Ok, this conclude the initial test and evaluation.  We will now work through all items on the list to get it 'Rally Ready'.  I will compile a short list of
what we plan and keep you up to date on the progress.  It will however go a bit slower for a few weeks as I will be out of town a lot till month end.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: BatmanGS on July 12, 2016, 05:16:07 am
Hi Addie

Before you spend a lot re-inventing the wheel, the a re a few Side x side cars out there that were modified for particaption in the Donaldson National Cross Country Championship a few years back, I'd look out for one of these cars as all the mods should have been done.

I understand that Yamaha SA have brought a "Competition" Spec'ed Rhino (1000 cc) in a few weeks back to evaluate, I have not seen it but it would be interesting.

Some of the major problems with all these cars has been the Drive belt, wheel bearing problems and the overheating.

In our Off Road Club we have a guy with one that is now very well sorted and it is reliable, send me message if you're interested and I can put you intouch with thes guys and  I'm sure they will swop notes as school fees are very expensive in this game.
They have brought in a lot of special parts and made a lot too.

Good luck with the project.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Aquatic on July 12, 2016, 05:42:35 am
Adie - have a look at this site for buggy plans:
http://badlandbuggy.com/product/megalodon/ (http://badlandbuggy.com/product/megalodon/)


Also look up sidewinder buggies in western aus. You can buy just plans all the way to a complete buggy. And they have a 2 seater

http://www.theedgeproducts.com/Categories/The_X2 (http://www.theedgeproducts.com/Categories/The_X2)
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on July 12, 2016, 12:20:26 pm
@ BatmanGS
Thanks for the info. We are actually evaluating the merits of locally manufacturing a SCORE 'PRO UTV NA' / FIA T3 Light vehicle.  One of OUR criteria is that the vehicle must be road legal as well. These two points alone put most of the buggies out there. I might be wrong but this class (T3 Light) is non existent in SA. In fact most buggies out there are actually 'Sandmasters' of some sort.  T3 was originally brought in FIA regs to make Dakar more cost effective.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: BlueBull2007 on July 13, 2016, 07:47:20 pm
All I can say is that you are an absolute legend Adie. :thumleft: :salut:

Loving this thread and the build. I hope you can warn us somehow when you come up behind us on the rally! Would not like to have that thing come over the top of me :laughing7:

Fully agree with your comments on the Coronel buggie. They had a lot of problems with those buggies as well.
The radiator issue is something to still think about, even with the lower temperature setting.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: 1ougat on July 13, 2016, 08:10:13 pm
 :sip:

Let see where this rabbit hole goes   :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: White Rhino on July 14, 2016, 12:24:43 am
I'm going along - looks very interesting :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: zetman on July 14, 2016, 08:48:30 am
 :ricky:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: brains on July 18, 2016, 05:38:39 pm
I built the ST2 from Badland buggy a few years back. Good luck, am following!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Africa_Sam on July 19, 2016, 08:25:20 am
Serious kit - Also only for the rich: http://www.ragemotorsport.com/shop/custom.asp?cpid=custom62 (http://www.ragemotorsport.com/shop/custom.asp?cpid=custom62)
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on August 13, 2016, 10:43:32 pm
Ok, some update.

Every time I think I can start the project I must work for money  >:D

We did some testing with JaJa to get a reference.  A few things came to light that we will defenatily look at. Mainly suspension and cockpit. Michelle went to Stellenbosch with it the other day BUT BLIKSEM, that hing is heavy on juice. Se only got 5km/l (no typo !!)

In the meantime I started the planning of the new frame and suspension. 

Our basic design criteria:
Keep the basic look of the car where possible. We will not use JaJa but design and built the car from ground up. (JaJa might get an Engine transplant to be more reliable.)
Use 14" Maxxis tyres all round.
Go 2 wheel drive only.
Double A frame suspension all round.
Use the same shocks and spring rates all round. ( This will be a big challenge to balance the light front with the heavy back.)
Do 'proper' suspension design to minimize bump steer, Ackerman deviation, squat and diving under braking.
Use proper car suspension parts like ball joints etc etc.

After I refreshed my memory again w.r.t. suspension design I started to draw lines.  Please note, I know NOTHING about offroad racing so will apply a fair amount of 'basic principles'.

The pics below:
1. Frame Mock-up. This exercise was to see if we can get a 'regulation' frame to suit JaJa's Plastics.
2. Suspension in Bottom out position.
3. Suspension max height position.
4. Cad detail with suspension in 'normal' riding position.

We can now start the frame design as the basic swivel points of the suspension is defined.  Provision for suspension alterations will be available.
Currently we used the following criteria.
350mm Ground clearance.
300mm suspension travel.
3° Camber at no load.
1.5° Camber at normal ride height.
6.6° Camber at bottom out. (this is to try and optimize handling for body roll during cornering)

Bump steer is limited to 3mm rod travel over the full suspension travel.

Frame design to follow soon.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Scrat on August 13, 2016, 11:40:26 pm
Excellent!!

This is going to be a super project!
Good luck with all the planning!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: BlueBull2007 on August 14, 2016, 10:29:57 am
This is great stuff, Adie. I am no expert but something does not look right on the back two tubes to the rear

Are you using the frame layout/design from existing car models as a basis?
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on August 14, 2016, 12:17:02 pm
This is great stuff, Adie. I am no expert but something does not look right on the back two tubes to the rear

Are you using the frame layout/design from existing car models as a basis?


1. The horizontal ones or the one from the rollbar to the back ?

2. No, it is a new design from ground up.  One of our aims is to make the car 'look good' AND fit in the FIA/SCORE regulations.  Like said before, there are many plans designs etc out there but none that meet our criteria.  One of the big issues is actually the 'creative limitation' of the FIA regs where everything is controlled (even the height of the seat base to the floor and then the floor to ......)  We will therefore be 100% SCORE legal but might have a few FIA 'deviations' on non critical points like seat height. We will however use FIA where feasable.

Extract from FIA
**
Fuel lines (except the connections to the injectors and the cooling radiator on the circuit returning to the tank) must have a minimum burst  pressure  of  70  bars  (1000  psi)  at  the  minimum  operating temperature of 135°C (250°F).
**
Interesting FIA does not allow CromeMoly whereas SCORE does.

It is actually interesting to note that ASO (Dakar) also refer to SCORE regulations which are much more 'open'. 

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Scooterbike on August 14, 2016, 02:03:38 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Aquatic on August 15, 2016, 01:43:21 pm
This is great stuff, Adie. I am no expert but something does not look right on the back two tubes to the rear

Are you using the frame layout/design from existing car models as a basis?


1. The horizontal ones or the one from the rollbar to the back ?

2. No, it is a new design from ground up.  One of our aims is to make the car 'look good' AND fit in the FIA/SCORE regulations.  Like said before, there are many plans designs etc out there but none that meet our criteria.  One of the big issues is actually the 'creative limitation' of the FIA regs where everything is controlled (even the height of the seat base to the floor and then the floor to ......)  We will therefore be 100% SCORE legal but might have a few FIA 'deviations' on non critical points like seat height. We will however use FIA where feasable.

Extract from FIA
**
Fuel lines (except the connections to the injectors and the cooling radiator on the circuit returning to the tank) must have a minimum burst  pressure  of  70  bars  (1000  psi)  at  the  minimum  operating temperature of 135°C (250°F).
**
Interesting FIA does not allow CromeMoly whereas SCORE does.

It is actually interesting to note that ASO (Dakar) also refer to SCORE regulations which are much more 'open'. 

Adie


No chromoly? WTF?
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on September 04, 2016, 08:33:19 pm
Back from a hectic (halfway through) project.

We stripped the motor out of the ATOS that will be used as new drivetrain.  As mentioned before we will go 2 wheel drive only and limited slip diff/lockable option.

Ahe ATOS is from SMD. 120 000km running order drivetrain.  Car must have rolled as only one window not broken.  No 'straight' body panel remained.  If I had to buy a Motor, Grarbox, CV's, Driveshafts, radiator, loom etc etc it would cost probably 30% more.  We will take the parts I do not need to the scrap steel merchants. (I have no desire to start a scrapyard.) (Het alreeds te veel rommel op die plot)

Ok, motor out but still on subframe.  This will make measurements with respect to mounting points etc etc easier.  We will design a new subframe that use as much as possible of the existing frame.  The motor must be 'lifted out' with minimum work.  We will design new trailing arms to match the ATOS wheel hubs. (We will sell the existing motor, gearbox complete with side shafts and hubs.)  The shockabsorber mounting points will also be flexible for suspension tuning.

We are considering an aftermarket engine management system.  Diktator or Spitronics.  I have no experience with either of the two products so the choice will be based on price and ease of installation.  >:(

We will strip the original motor and drive train out this week. Would like to have the car driving again in 3 weeks.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on September 05, 2016, 06:49:43 am
Addie

Is that a automatic or manual?

I was considering changing my Hajadu to a Atos automatic as adding the clutch pedal system to the very small foot space are would be a bit mad?

Can I came have a look please?

Sean - Amageza Start marshal!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on September 05, 2016, 07:22:21 am
Addie

Is that a automatic or manual?

I was considering changing my Hajadu to a Atos automatic as adding the clutch pedal system to the very small foot space are would be a bit mad?

Can I came have a look please?

Sean - Amageza Start marshal!

No it is a manual.  Depending on how you look at it the space will not be a problem.  We had all the pedals for the Formula VEE in less than 350 x 350mm.  The gearchange will be via standard cables as the 'link' is now 'behind' the engine.

Feel free to contact me for a visit.  Oppie Plotte in Joostenberg.  Kyk op rockfox.co.za vir kontak nommers en padaanwysings.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: BlueBull2007 on September 05, 2016, 08:22:22 am
Keep it coming Adie, Im fascinated and inspired by your project! :thumleft:

To answer your earlier question, I was referring to the two bars in the bottom corners of the vehicle in this pic.

*Disclaimer: I know nothing about buggies, so a totally noob question. ::)


(http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=195726.0;attach=495579;image)



Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: I&horse on September 05, 2016, 08:47:45 am
Sub
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Mooch on September 05, 2016, 10:13:01 am
sub
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: WP on September 05, 2016, 12:30:40 pm
Back from a hectic (halfway through) project.

We stripped the motor out of the ATOS that will be used as new drivetrain.  As mentioned before we will go 2 wheel drive only and limited slip diff/lockable option.

Ahe ATOS is from SMD. 120 000km running order drivetrain.  Car must have rolled as only one window not broken.  No 'straight' body panel remained.  If I had to buy a Motor, Grarbox, CV's, Driveshafts, radiator, loom etc etc it would cost probably 30% more.  We will take the parts I do not need to the scrap steel merchants. (I have no desire to start a scrapyard.) (Het alreeds te veel rommel op die plot)

Ok, motor out but still on subframe.  This will make measurements with respect to mounting points etc etc easier.  We will design a new subframe that use as much as possible of the existing frame.  The motor must be 'lifted out' with minimum work.  We will design new trailing arms to match the ATOS wheel hubs. (We will sell the existing motor, gearbox complete with side shafts and hubs.)  The shockabsorber mounting points will also be flexible for suspension tuning.

We are considering an aftermarket engine management system.  Diktator or Spitronics.  I have no experience with either of the two products so the choice will be based on price and ease of installation.  >:(

We will strip the original motor and drive train out this week. Would like to have the car driving again in 3 weeks.

Adie

Hi Adie

Een van my pelle is die plaaslike spitronics agent, hy sal vir jou baie informasie ens kan gee, laat weet my as jy sy nommer wil he.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on September 05, 2016, 01:50:18 pm
Addie

Is that a automatic or manual?

I was considering changing my Hajadu to a Atos automatic as adding the clutch pedal system to the very small foot space are would be a bit mad?

Can I came have a look please?

Sean - Amageza Start marshal!

No it is a manual.  Depending on how you look at it the space will not be a problem.  We had all the pedals for the Formula VEE in less than 350 x 350mm.  The gearchange will be via standard cables as the 'link' is now 'behind' the engine.

Feel free to contact me for a visit.  Oppie Plotte in Joostenberg.  Kyk op rockfox.co.za vir kontak nommers en padaanwysings.

Adie

Dankie Adie

I will pop in later in the week. Will give you a call before to confirm it's OK. My buggy is standing in my garage looking nice but standing is not what it was meant to do! I have to do a engine change some time as well. Seems you know what you're doing so maybee you can show,assit, or  we can work something out.

Chat soon!!

Sean
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on September 07, 2016, 10:30:42 am
DANKIE Oom Addie

Jy het my nuwe insperasie gegee vir my buggy!!

Ons maak n plan!!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Dirt Junkie on September 07, 2016, 06:43:30 pm
Interesting
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on September 20, 2016, 11:31:00 pm
Ok, after delay's setbacks etc. etc. I had some time to continue with the project.  The aim is to have the car on the road before Shutdown.

With the motor available and after more research we updated the frame to accommodate different engines. (All transverse).  We changed the frame design to ease fabrication as well as allow easy modification during evaluation and development. The front suspension will mounted via a bolt on 'subframe'.  This will allow us to make even major design changes without any cutting or welding.  The penalty will be less than 5kg. in total weight.  We estimate the complete frame with all gussets and braces to be less than 110kg.

All CAD sizes will now be validated in real life on the building table.  The frame will be built in stages to ensure the design is 'practical'.  Need to confirm comfort of seating position, shoulder clearance, forward visibility etc etc.

Pic 1 is the general idea to validate the 'looks' of the frame.  I will not design the body panels on CAD as I am self taught so don't know how  :-[

Pic 2 is the interference check if the front suspension at full travel and steering lock.  The offending tube will be moved to retain strength etc etc.

Adie

Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on October 03, 2016, 11:07:56 am
HI Adie

Is that buggie nearly ready? You have got about a month left for the test run. Show us some pics?

S
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Archangel on October 03, 2016, 11:59:13 am
Sub!  :sip:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Bazinga on October 03, 2016, 01:16:10 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Casting from Turd on October 03, 2016, 01:24:37 pm
Bliksem  :drif:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 03, 2016, 07:18:17 pm
Ok, did some preparation of the 'Project room'.  This space was earmarked for project related work from day one.  We just never got around getting it organized.  We decided to first get everything in place before the actual build will start.

One side will be used for the Buggy's and the other side will still be for bike projects.

The building table will be completed this week. Basically a super rigid 1.5m x 2.9m table with 4mm steel top where the locating clamps/parts can be bolted on to ensure everything is straight and flat.  Critical parts like the rear trailing arms, suspension points etc. will be assembled on a 'self aligning jig' (The stops, clamps etc will be located via laser cut lugs and tabs.)

Pic 1:  Cutting the build table frame, painting the new table/shelves, cleaning.
Pic 2:  Rockfox shipment for Italy, waiting for courier. Cleaning.
Pic 3:  Almost done, Pegboard with tools etc etc to do.
Pic 4:  check if other stuff can still fit.
Pic 5:  Halfway there

Pic 6:  Suspension in bottom out position
Pic 7: Suspension in full extend position.
Pic 8: Seat i want but WAAII too expensive for first prototype.

Ok, we ordered the sheet for the build table, will pick up tomorrow.  I could initially borrow a 38mm tube bender but now it might not happen.  so,
Pic 9: ** Sample from interweb ** out with the CAD and the design hat. Will do a simple JD2 ratchet type as start.  Will put hydraulics on later as we are probably going to use 50mm for the roll cage.

till later, got work to do.
Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: goblin on October 03, 2016, 08:30:35 pm
sub
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 03, 2016, 11:27:35 pm
Ok, Getting pressed for time now.

Basic tube bender design done.  Will double check everything tomorrow before the steel is ordered.  The hydraulic cylinder will be added later.  Will do initial tests with the standard ratchet power bar.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on October 04, 2016, 11:01:01 am
SJO!!

As jy nie n Tool het nie - moet nie een koop nie - Bou een! Ek like Meester Adie!!

Ek sal maar moet kom inpop as die build begin!

S
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Groenie on October 04, 2016, 05:56:56 pm
Ok, Getting pressed for time now.

Basic tube bender design done.  Will double check everything tomorrow before the steel is ordered.  The hydraulic cylinder will be added later.  Will do initial tests with the standard ratchet power bar.

Adie

Check die absoluut useless bender wat Anderdorff verkoop vir relatief cheap (http://www.adendorff.co.za/ProductDetails/Workshop-Tools/Pipe-Steel-Shaping/Thick-Pipe-Benders/12-TON-HYDRAULIC-PIPE-BENDER/327). Die enigste ding wat jy kan gebruik is die hydraulic silinder. Ek het een en het al die ander dele van die bender weg gebliksem. Ek wou nog altyd so 'n bender bou... sal seker een of ander dag daarby uitkom.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Casting from Turd on October 04, 2016, 06:21:18 pm
Ok, Getting pressed for time now.

Basic tube bender design done.  Will double check everything tomorrow before the steel is ordered.  The hydraulic cylinder will be added later.  Will do initial tests with the standard ratchet power bar.

Adie

Check die absoluut useless bender wat Anderdorff verkoop vir relatief cheap (http://www.adendorff.co.za/ProductDetails/Workshop-Tools/Pipe-Steel-Shaping/Thick-Pipe-Benders/12-TON-HYDRAULIC-PIPE-BENDER/327). Die enigste ding wat jy kan gebruik is die hydraulic silinder. Ek het een en het al die ander dele van die bender weg gebliksem. Ek wou nog altyd so 'n bender bou... sal seker een of ander dag daarby uitkom.

Ou Groenie Potgieter is terug  :peepwall: :imaposer:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 06, 2016, 03:51:56 pm
Steel arrived.  R 1 400.00 worth of steel for a R 15 000.00 bender. >:D

Now need to start machining.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: badballie on October 06, 2016, 04:43:05 pm
Sub   :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on October 06, 2016, 05:52:35 pm
Steel arrived.  R 1 400.00 worth of steel for a R 15 000.00 bender. >:D

Now need to start machining.

Adie

Will you build me one as well? Lol!! Ill need one next year for my Cruiser project. we will have to talk!

Nice!!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: 1ougat on October 07, 2016, 09:15:36 am
Aldie

Het jy meer inligting oor daai bike lift ... neem aan jy het hom gebou ?
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: jog t/a on October 07, 2016, 09:34:50 am
Hi Adie

Maybe you know already but if not here goes. You get two Atos engine's  -

Improved one - cam belt sprocket on crank with round hole and key way - no worries

Its predecessor - Sprocket and crank had no key way and crank had to flat sides machine to accommodate sprocket - this one is prone to wear and then throws out timing and eats into crank and timing plate and ultimately the oil pump casing.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 07, 2016, 10:53:21 am
Aldie

Het jy meer inligting oor daai bike lift ... neem aan jy het hom gebou ?

Mike het die basiese planne op die interweb gekry.  Ons het dit so bietjie aangepas om by die 2Ton Jack en 'offcut' staal te pas wat ons gehad het te pas.  Dit lig 'n gelaaide 1200 sonder probleme.  Dit was 'n paar jaar terug so het nie meer die tekeninge.

Kyk hier vir soortgelyk: http://www.roamafrica.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=1504.0 (http://www.roamafrica.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=1504.0)
Daar is 'n lift vir 'n 'plastic' ook.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 07, 2016, 12:24:31 pm
Hi Adie

Maybe you know already but if not here goes. You get two Atos engine's  -

Improved one - cam belt sprocket on crank with round hole and key way - no worries

Its predecessor - Sprocket and crank had no key way and crank had to flat sides machine to accommodate sprocket - this one is prone to wear and then throws out timing and eats into crank and timing plate and ultimately the oil pump casing.

Thaks will keep an eye out.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: 1ougat on October 07, 2016, 12:35:30 pm
Aldie

Het jy meer inligting oor daai bike lift ... neem aan jy het hom gebou ?

Mike het die basiese planne op die interweb gekry.  Ons het dit so bietjie aangepas om by die 2Ton Jack en 'offcut' staal te pas wat ons gehad het te pas.  Dit lig 'n gelaaide 1200 sonder probleme.  Dit was 'n paar jaar terug so het nie meer die tekeninge.

Kyk hier vir soortgelyk: http://www.roamafrica.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=1504.0 (http://www.roamafrica.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=1504.0)
Daar is 'n lift vir 'n 'plastic' ook.

Adie

Dankie Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: evansv on October 07, 2016, 12:37:21 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: ktmmer on October 07, 2016, 01:32:55 pm
Ok, Getting pressed for time now.

Basic tube bender design done.  Will double check everything tomorrow before the steel is ordered.  The hydraulic cylinder will be added later.  Will do initial tests with the standard ratchet power bar.

Adie

Please explain how the bender works.
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 07, 2016, 03:35:10 pm

Please explain how the bender works.

It is probably the most copied tube (thick wall) bender out there. Real basic, simple and effective.

The two limitations is thinnest wall thickness and bend radius is 3 x tube dia.  Smaller rad and thinner tube must be done with mandrel bender. (We designed and built a hydraulic one for 25dia x 2 wall a few years ago)

We will eventually upgrade the 28/50dia to full hydraulic.

See this for 'How it works'  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y-uwiqdaWY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y-uwiqdaWY)

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on October 11, 2016, 06:09:41 pm
Adie... Any progress?? Lol

I am off to go buy a motor (The hole car) tomorrow - waiting to see how you getting along as mine is next..... Lol

Let me know if I can come clean bolts and nuts or bring beer or something when you busy working....

S
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Onetime on October 12, 2016, 11:49:31 am
 :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on October 12, 2016, 01:12:59 pm
Mr Adie!

I just bought my small car to strip naked - got a running motor, drivetrain and all....

I'm going to start taking out my Buggies Motor so long and see how far I can get on my lonesome before needing you super experience!!

Can't wait to get cracking!! lol!

Will come pop in soon for some needed tips....

S
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Kortbroek on October 21, 2016, 09:54:09 am
Hoe vorder daai buggy?
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on October 21, 2016, 09:58:34 am
Hoe vorder daai buggy?

Ek wil self weet Adie!! Gooi daar n paar kiekies...
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 21, 2016, 11:18:56 am
Hoe vorder daai buggy?

Was bietjie besig met 'geldmaak werk' die week.  Die buigmasjien word die naweek klaargemaaak.  Sal fotie pos as ons buig. 

Verder was daar heelwat verwikkelinge - nie sigbaar.  Ons het die raam herontwerp om so 200mm wyer te wees.  Dit maak die kajuit baie meer gemaklik.  Daar is ook na meer modulere ontwerp gekyk.  Dieselfde vering stelsel sal met verskillende skokbrekers en 'coils' verskillende behoeftes kan bevredig van 'n plaas voertuig vir gifspuit ens tot 'n volledige rally voertuig.  Basies sal verskillende modelle op die selfde 'basis' gebou kan word.

Ons kyk na onder R 90 000.00 vir 'n model wat boere kan gebruik in plaas van 'n quad.  Loopkoste ens sal ook baie laer wees.  Dit sal meer vrag kan dra ens ens.

Alle ontwerp kriteria is egter vir 'n rally voertuig.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: desertfox on October 21, 2016, 11:39:12 am
 :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 27, 2016, 10:37:43 pm
Pic 1:  Ok, I came back from a Gauteng trippie and was for some reason upgraded to SAA 1st CLASS from a cheap seat on the way back. (Maybe they want me to fly more with them than the other cheapies.)

Pic 2: I was lucky enough to borrow a JD Squared bender. (It is a commercially available one similar to the one I'm building.  did a 38 dia x 2.5mm wall tube and 90 degree test.

Pic 3: The bend came out MUCH better than what I expected as the machine is quite old and worn.  I can now complete my own design with the assurance that it will give acceptable results.

The plate and other steel for the build table arrived today as well.  Will take a few pics once done.  It's gonna be a working weekend.

Adie

Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Cracker on October 28, 2016, 08:02:48 am
The bender looks fantastic  :thumleft:

The first class food - not so much  ::)
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 29, 2016, 04:41:31 pm
Ok, Some progress.

The build table is almost done. The basic frame will be painted next week - the top will stay unpainted to act as a conductor during welding.  All jigs and guides will be bolted to the top (will use m6 countersunk Rivnuts) to allow adjustments and accommodate different models.  We will also use the table to do engine transplants. (total size 1450 x 2900mm Outside frame 100x100x6 square)

Pic 1: Before top attached.  This thing is super rigid. (and flat - less than .5 degrees in any direction.)

Pic 2: With Top. Tack welds around and to cross braces underneath to prevent warping due to heat..

We will draw the center line and axle centres as starting reference for the build. Reference 'pegs' will be placed at key points from where we can measure and ensure everything is 'true' at the end.


Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on October 31, 2016, 08:03:05 am
Nice!!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 01, 2016, 11:01:48 pm
Prototype build started.

We will do the back first to make sure the motor can be mounted with all the clearances and strength to hold the heavy motor.

I now 'understand' how the tube bender works and could do the rollbar without any issues.  All tube joints are fully notched for ultimate strength after welding.  Had to go out this evening so could not do the last two tubes for the motor 'cage'

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on November 02, 2016, 04:09:21 pm
Oom Adie

Daai motor van nou frame.... lol

Ek kan nie meer wag om daai full frame te sien nie!

Sterkte!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 03, 2016, 12:23:30 am
Hi Adie

Maybe you know already but if not here goes. You get two Atos engine's  -

Improved one - cam belt sprocket on crank with round hole and key way - no worries

Its predecessor - Sprocket and crank had no key way and crank had to flat sides machine to accommodate sprocket - this one is prone to wear and then throws out timing and eats into crank and timing plate and ultimately the oil pump casing.

No me know noting of these motors. I had a short list of 1100cc cars and this one became available.

while we are at it I do not see any Lambda sensor on the exhaust. Wonder how the EFI calculated the correct air/fuel ratio?

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on November 03, 2016, 04:52:31 pm
Oom Adie

Waar is daai foto's van die 2de pyp? rus daai enjin al op mounts... lol.. Ek jaag oom aan nou nę..

S
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 03, 2016, 10:26:29 pm
Ok,
Shutdown is getting closer and I need to get quite a few parts cut and bent. The target is to have a rolling chassis before shutdown.  A lot of work and I need to make a living too.  >:D

The engine mount points are fixed. Looks like a nice fit.  Motor will be easy to service and even removed (Lift out and not drop out as initially planned)  They will deliver the tubes to be used for bracing Saturday.  In the meantime the motor will mounted on a 'movable' sub frame.  This will allow us to move back and forth during final suspension layout to get the travel's right.

I must say it is so much easier to plan the layout and gusset position in 'real life'.  I can only visualize so much on the cad.  All gussets and bracing will now be effective but still easy to manufacture.  The drawings gets updated as I go along.

The Pics below is the basic engine mounting members.  The car will be available without rubber mounts for rally application by just changing the mounting brackets.

I must get the Gantry up first tomorrow so the rear end complete with motor can be lifted up so we can simulate full suspension travel and check the plunge of the CV joints as well as shockabsorber clearance.

Till next time

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on November 04, 2016, 06:19:26 am
Great!!  :sip:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 06, 2016, 05:45:00 pm
A few pics of the progress this weekend.

I did the one side of the cage to check dimensions.  All seems to be OK.  ;D

Will be in Gauteng this week so not much will be done.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 13, 2016, 09:48:07 pm
Had some time this weekend to do a few more tubes.

Most cabin dimensions are now validated and updated to (hopefully) ensure comfortable driving position etc etc.  The next step is to fabricate 'working' front and rear suspension for final travel and cornering checks.  Still needs to make a few decisions around the suspension travel to accommodate the standard CV joints at the rear and the position of the rack and pinion to get 'proper Ackerman principal' dimensions through the full travel and turning movements.

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Matewis on November 14, 2016, 08:43:00 am
Hy kom mooi aan!!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Black_Hawk on November 14, 2016, 09:20:13 am
Julle vorder baie goed  :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on November 14, 2016, 09:40:10 am
Thought of your project when I saw this video

https://www.youtube.com/v/1eFJcHKatVA
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: seankriel on November 24, 2016, 07:17:35 am
HI oom Addie

Kyk bietjie na die:
http://buggynews.com/gs-moon-road-legal-buggy-converted-to-honda-cbr900-fireblade-t44538-20.html

n paar ideas met die pedals etc het hier aan die werk gespring...

S
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 30, 2016, 10:19:36 pm
Ok, a bit of news.
the project will be on hold for a week or two as I will first do an engine transplant in a similar buggy.  This will be the second phase of the planning. - all the small items will be checked.

The original car is sold.  It served its purpose.  The money will go to the completion of the new car.

In the meantime you can follow the progress on the engine transplant here. http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=201344.0

Adie
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Allen on October 05, 2017, 08:36:07 pm
Hello Adie.

Any further progress on this?
I was following with great interest!
Title: Re: The Rockfox Amageza buggy project
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on October 06, 2017, 12:29:25 am
The project is a bit on ice,
mainly due to other 'more important' projects like the Rockfox Soft Luggage (That RF Welder give me all the grief in the world - maybe its like me - just too old to be consistent  :'( ) both the CRF250 and 650GS Rally rebuild, upgrade of our mandrel bender to be full CNC, design and manufacture our own PLC and Industrial controller with Raspberry Pi, upgrade our plant automation software, agricultural vehicle for vineyards, ok - I rather not think about the other projects that I still want to start or just complete.

Also, the fact that rallies in SA are now limited to the expensive Donaldson Series?? or WOMSA the possible market for the car as a "Rally" model is limited.  We did a slight re-design to make it more 'Public road' friendly for possible sales. (the plan is to register Rockfox as a "Chassis Builder" in order to get them road legal.)

So, the project will probably be re-started around June 2018.

Adie
So many projects, so little time.