Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Riding: Plan, Report and Racing => Racing Section => Topic started by: Camelman on November 25, 2016, 10:39:40 am

Title: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on November 25, 2016, 10:39:40 am
I have been contemplating this for a while. When Amageza started it was for big bikes. The distances were long and the terrain less technical. Now that the Amageza Rallye is part of the FIM Scene the terrain is technical and the bikes smaller. So how can we get the big boys to be part of this fun.

So I thought, Cannon-Ball... on a road-book.

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In my head I see a bunch of riders lined up on a salt pan. Their bikes are loaded with everything they may need for 4000km of gravel and off-road. They are assembled in teams, some two, some four. They have a navigator with a road-book, a mechanic and other riders in the team, all loaded with various parts to ensure they get to the end. They have tents and sleeping bags, some without tents, planning to sacrifice luxury for maneuverability. Some riders are on big 1200cc bikes, others on 600cc-1000cc bikes. They line up on the pan, on foot, line abreast. They are ready to run. Some with their helmets on, some in barely any kit. They are ready to hoof it on foot. Their bikes are parked 100m in the distance. They can just see their road-book lying next to a flag with their number displayed, 50m ahead. Deadly silence...The gun-shot sounds and the fastest rider of each team runs to fetch the road-book. It's his responsibility to navigate his team. The team leader is urging his slower team mates on. They get to their bikes. Some teams were clever and got a seasoned Amageza Rallye rider as their navigator. He is busy loading the road-book into the reader, while his team-mates are starting up their bikes. He fumbles a little, the paper is jammed. Next to him the navigator from the other team has managed to load his road-book. He shouts at his team-mates and they roar off over the pan, following the navigator flat taps!

The first day passes by in a flash. They ride from sun-rise to sun-set. A team was lucky and sun-set found them in a small town or village where they can overnight. Team XXX riders were faster, they are ahead and somewhere in the open. They pitch camp and eat whatever they have on them. Early night the navigator marks the road-book. The computer wiz is working the route on the GPS, finding the best path. The first time he has time to do so since getting the new road-book a couple of hours back. The team leader receives a SMS on the Satellite phone. They are in the lead. The team closest to them had to wait at the marshal point to serve a time penalty for speeding, and had no credit in their Time-Bank. The team leader smiles. He's team rode their bikes a thousand kilometers to get to the start. His team has 500 seconds in credit he can use should they need it to negate a time penalty. He shuts off his headlight. His last thought is of the 3100 kilometers remaining, and what he would buy with his share of the R200 000 first prize.

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While driving the thousands of k's for the Amageza Rallye, I jotted down a couple of basics. It has now already morphed into a 5 page document. Having opened discussions with Motorsport South Africa and FIM Africa the basics has been formed.

To my knowledge this has never been tried world-wide before, but being South African, we seldom let that stand in our way, do we! Personally I absolutely LOVE IT! So if you like it, and can afford the R15 000 entry fee, please vote above. If enough of you seem genuinely interested, I will make it happen.

PLEASE... Before you get into the 'why is it so expensive', please take into account that a Mc Donalds burger is also expensive when you look at what is in there. But do you grab the manager and ask him why? Nope. I think not so. As with anything there are costs involved. Some you can see like the burger patty and bun. Others like the shop, the staff, the accountants, bank charges, etc you cannot see. That does not mean it does not exist, you just don't know about it! I don't understand why a loaf of bread costs R20, yet I still buy it. I also don't grab the auntie at the bread counter and ask her how can she sell a Albany bread for R20! If I can't afford it, I stay quiet and walk past to the R11 Checkers bread.  ;D

Here are the basics below. Remember to vote. Your vote will decide if this will become a reality. If none of you want to do it, then Bill the Bong and I will do it. I'm sure I'll beat him over 100 meters.  ;D

Oh, and we may use any or all of the SADC countries. So have a passport and required bike papers ready. This is going to be epic!! You are going to do 4000km to a unknown location, on a unknown route. How's that for a treasure hunt!  >:D
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Bill the Bong on November 25, 2016, 11:52:29 am
Dibs not to run for the road book.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: GraZer on November 25, 2016, 12:06:45 pm
Will the roadbooks be included in the entry fee  :pot:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on November 25, 2016, 12:17:48 pm
Like the bigger bike idea but instead of making it a race how about the riders must find points of interest.
If you miss some you lose points.A tour with added interest.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Cdp13 on November 25, 2016, 12:29:22 pm
Sounds awesome!!!!!!!

What time of the year are we looking at?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Tuareg on November 25, 2016, 12:36:59 pm
Can we have a "I like the sound of this - lets see where this goes" option in the vote choices?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Kortbroek on November 25, 2016, 12:47:50 pm
This sounds great  :thumleft: :thumleft:

If the entrance fee is R15000 or less then it starts entering the affordable range for the "haven't been working long enough yet to have lots of money" group of us.
Also because we would be able to use our "normal" bikes with minor mods if I understand correctly?

Will a KLR be able to ride the type of terrain you have in mind?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Bill the Bong on November 25, 2016, 01:34:59 pm
Price sounds decent.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Cracker on November 25, 2016, 01:47:56 pm
I like the sound of this  :thumleft:

A clip-on universal RB holder would be good - Adie???
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Hotklou on November 25, 2016, 01:54:28 pm
So if you like it, and can afford the R15 000 entry fee

Will this be per team of 2 or per individual?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Rebelwithacause on November 25, 2016, 02:09:04 pm
This sounds like a brilliant idea!

 :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Rebelwithacause on November 25, 2016, 02:11:44 pm
best to post this in the general banter section as well, I want more people to see this!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: BlueBull2007 on November 25, 2016, 09:07:58 pm
Brilliant!! :thumleft:

Screw the prize money - for the ride, I am so in. I don't have a bloody bike, wife will prolly want a divorce,  but I'm in. Anyone looking for a pardner? ;D

1) How long would this take? I'm guessing about a week's leave would be required??

2) Would the teams have to ride the exact course or choose any route?

3) If I was to be living in say...Jozie (rather than Zimbabwe ::) )  and the race starts in Sutherland (I know there are no pans in Sutherland), I understand I would have a ways to go. 1,113km to be precise. I assume I would get my 30s/km right? Which would be 556.5 minutes or 9.275 hours in my time bank. And if I was able to ride there in the 11h43 minutes google maps thinks it would take to get there I would presumably be there 17 minutes before the start. Awesome. I'd be tired but could start. And I would have more than 9 hours to my credit so I could arguably have a 4 hour sleep and then get going right?

4) What happens if my team mate is coming from Knysna? Whose time do we get or do we have to start in the same place?

5) Will there be speeding penalties and if so will it work like it did at this years Amageza?  :peepwall:

6) only 4000km? 


So am I right that I would have 54900 seconds or 16.4 hours credit at the start? I guess my disadvantage would be that I could arguably be at the start after everyone had left...and still come first? That I think might be unlikely.

I love the strategy. Its not just about racing at full gas.

My only comment is that with prize money you will attract a whole bunch of bloody louts who will be snarling and nasty, and inviting perhaps a lot of drama. Why not have the prize money go to help some people in serious need? 
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: BlueBull2007 on November 25, 2016, 09:11:00 pm
It is a bit like the amazing race but on bikes!! . :ricky:

best to post this in the general banter section as well, I want more people to see this!

I will do a cross post if not already done already , and then direct everyone over to this thread. :laughing7:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Orangeswifty on November 26, 2016, 06:41:45 am
I like the idea. :biggrin:
In stead of allowing contestants to sleep in hotels rather make the playing fields level and force everyone to camp regardless.
Predetermined campsites in the bush en route
With penalties if the campsite is not left amicable and so on.........

I can already see a team SE :3some:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 26, 2016, 08:39:00 am
And there I went and wrote you a pretty story for nothing...  ::)

When you first read it, it sounds complex, but its actually not. The 5 page rules will explain it in detail. This here post is to gauge interest. I too now have a day-job coming up other than organizing races, so my time is precious. Don't want to spend time organizing a race nobody wants to do!  :spitcoffee:

Let me try and explain in more detail.

The idea is that you leave home on your bike to get to the start venue which you only find out 12 hours prior to 'race' start. If you ride your bike to the start, you prove it by handing in a GPS track. Your SPOT tracker is also live. So when the 12 hour SMS goes out, you switch on your tracker, then SMS HQ with your teams name and the GPS location you are leaving from. And confirm with HQ your tracker is working. Remember you leave as a TEAM. You need need nominate your starting point, then leave from that point on your entry form. The maximum distance you will get credit for is 2000km.

Furthermore to save costs, you only really need one team member with a paper roadbook, if you are anti-tech. Personally I would have a team of four. More than that and you get to be too slow. Let's say two riders have paper scrolls. The other two have a electronic roadbooks. Adie from Rockfox has made one already. Or you can put your tablet on your bike. The roadbook is in PDF format. You can also use a another tablet or old phone as your CAP/ HDG/ SPD. See the F2R app on Android. I use it. Works well. You can even go totally electronic with a scroll in your pocket for packup.

It is not a 5 stage event. Although it is dates over 5 days, its a 4000km race. So if you can ride 1000km a day, you're done in 4 days. But because of the time limits to get to the next marshal point to get the next roadbook, teams are eliminated automatically if they are to slow or get lost enough. Although you can SMS Ops from the sat phone and ask for coordinates to a tulip, you get penalized. So now you get to the marshal point 20 minutes prior to its closing. But Ops had notified them of your coordinate request so you have a 20 minute penalty. You also have 10 minutes of speed or other penalties. You have nothing in your time-bank. The marshal points closes 10 minutes before your penalties expire. You are now eliminated. Or actually your whole team is.

There is actually lots of strategy involved. The right team members will be everything. Can you ride accurately for keeping your speed in check. Can your designated navigator(s) get you to the other side safely and without getting lost. Can the team leader keep his teams spirits up after 3 days of hard riding. Does the team have between them the correct and most likely spares required for the duration. Can the team survive on energy bars and water for 4000km, while camping. If you think you can sit and sip coffee at every petrol station...You can for one day, then you're most likely be on your way home for missing the marshal point time-slot!  >:D

In my imagination I see the winning team getting to the end. 5 Days worth of stubble, dirty, sweaty, hungry and tired. But I'm sure the R200 000 will help to solve that problem!

This is the absolute Adventure Survivor Race. If we don't get any votes that will make me open entries for this, then I will do it on my own to prove that it can be done.  Just need to source a Husky 700 or Honda Africa-Twin somewhere! Maybe then in 2018 more of you will be interested.

This my friends, is most likely going to be tougher than the Amageza Rally. Think about it.

About the entry fee, just so you don't think I'll be swimming like Scrooge McDuck. It costs R100/ km to recce and pay for access to areas we want to ride in. We will also provide 3 sweep vehicles, 2 aircraft and 12 marshals with 6 vehicles. So even though there are no bivvies. The org still has to be there and shadow the entrants.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 26, 2016, 08:57:01 am
Another thing I've put in the rules. Every team gets deposits in his time-bank by handing in footage. 1 minute for a photo, 2 minutes for video. Maximum count is 5 minutes per stage per team. This will be received by the media buff at the marshal point every day. So maybe a team member is dedicated to get the images.

In addition to this, the winning media-submission by a team on a day, gets another 5 minutes in their time bank. Awesome ne!!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: melvman on November 26, 2016, 09:16:36 am
Absolutely AWESOME. If I'm unable to enter as a competitor, I'll volunteer my services as a marshal, but I'll be there when it happens!!

Nice one Alex!!!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: BlueBull2007 on November 26, 2016, 09:38:09 am
I like it too much! Have cross posted on RoamAfrica as well.

Give it a little time for people to read this.

Is riding at night allowed? I'm guessing if so, then a Le Mans-type race is on the cards, just not so safe. I'm thinking probably not. But checking the tracks for speed penalties and stuff along the way by the org will take a bit of time, no?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Tuareg on November 26, 2016, 09:43:52 am
Is there a proposed date (month / year) yet...?
I'm definitely warming to this idea
Need to start polling my mates for inherent stupidity & cash fluidity
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Crossed-up on November 26, 2016, 10:27:14 am
Is riding at night allowed?

Sunrise to sunset - times as given by your GPS.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 26, 2016, 01:30:36 pm
I like the sound of this  :thumleft:

A clip-on universal RB holder would be good - Adie???

YUP, that is in the pipeline

BUT

The new Rockfox electronic roaddbook (Android) will be 100% for this.  We are looking of making the software (a bit crippled to suit the event) available as a 'purchase'.  Still need to talk to the Boss (Alexander) but it can be even more cost effective than 'proper' eq.. >:D

Just imagine: you hand a memory stick to the org and they load the RB.  You load within seconds on the digital . (there could be a limit to the actual Phone/Tablet to make it cost effective (OTG capable units) Bla Bla Bla.

NAAA, It will not be approved (actuall there will be complaints about 'unfair advantage'  :pot:

B.T.W. I must start saving cos this is gonna cost me some moolahh.

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: JAmBer on November 27, 2016, 07:49:50 am
I really like the sounds of this race. But...

Enforcing start and end times each day (sunrise and sunset), combined with speed limits and a fixed route (necessarily the case with a roadbook) will mean that everyone makes the same progress each day.

  *) How will speed limits be enforced? Amageza style? Then you really can't "bend" the rules at all!

  *) How will sunrise/sunset times be determined? What will be the penalty for riding outside of these hours?

Given these restrictions, I don't think that the race will work out quite the way you've imagined it. I doubt anyone will arrive subbled and dirty. There are plenty of evening hours each day for a shit, shave and shower!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: JAmBer on November 27, 2016, 07:50:02 am
I can imagine cheating: ride from sunrise to sunset at the speed limit, then leave the spot tracker and a GPS there. Ride to the nearest town for a comfortable sleep, dinner, shit, shave, shower etc. Leave the next morning again before sunrise, to arrive at your spot tracker and GPS at sunrise for next day's official start.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Cdp13 on November 27, 2016, 12:12:08 pm
I really like the sounds of this race. But...

Enforcing start and end times each day (sunrise and sunset), combined with speed limits and a fixed route (necessarily the case with a roadbook) will mean that everyone makes the same progress each day.

  *) How will speed limits be enforced? Amageza style? Then you really can't "bend" the rules at all!

  *) How will sunrise/sunset times be determined? What will be the penalty for riding outside of these hours?

Given these restrictions, I don't think that the race will work out quite the way you've imagined it. I doubt anyone will arrive subbled and dirty. There are plenty of evening hours each day for a shit, shave and shower!

Alex will find a way to rough us up, under estimate him at your peril... :peepwall:

You raise valid concerns, but I'm sure he's thought this through again and again. Depending on the dates, I am in. The details will become clearer as the time goes on, but before we shoot this idea down, let's hear it out. Just my 2cents. Go Camelman, make this thing happen!!!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Kortbroek on November 27, 2016, 01:39:33 pm
I would use the same rules as the X-alps. Your tracker is attached to your kit/bike and has to always be on. It gets a tamper seal. They monitor your heart rate so they can see when you're moving. Start and end times are allocated for each day. It is the same style of race as this only you are on foot or paragliding but have to carry all of your kit.

http://www.redbullxalps.com/

I really think a similar rule set would work well for this race.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: DE on November 27, 2016, 03:06:09 pm
I Like!!!

I am in pending the dates.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Bill the Bong on November 27, 2016, 05:39:41 pm
I really like the sounds of this race. But...

  *) How will sunrise/sunset times be determined? What will be the penalty for riding outside of these hours?


http://www.gaisma.com/ is where the official sunset and sunrise tables are published
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 27, 2016, 05:59:32 pm
I really like the sounds of this race. But...

Enforcing start and end times each day (sunrise and sunset), combined with speed limits and a fixed route (necessarily the case with a roadbook) will mean that everyone makes the same progress each day.

  *) How will speed limits be enforced? Amageza style? Then you really can't "bend" the rules at all!

  *) How will sunrise/sunset times be determined? What will be the penalty for riding outside of these hours?

Given these restrictions, I don't think that the race will work out quite the way you've imagined it. I doubt anyone will arrive subbled and dirty. There are plenty of evening hours each day for a shit, shave and shower!

Just thinking (which by itself is a dangerous activity for me)

In reality it will not be like that due to the route selected and various other 'realities'.  Even if all get up the same time an leave (close to) the same time the faster riders will pass through the 'cutoff checkpoint' earlier.  They can then proceed and ride until 'sunset' (as per Roadbook) and camp next to the road.  The GPS will pick up any 'cheating' (movement towards next cutoff) so the team will be penalized at the 'cutoff checkpoint' when the GPS is downloaded. and the new roadbook handed over.

Remember it will not happen at 'highway speed' only.  Some riders think 90 is fast on gravel roads whereas other are comfortable at 120.  So in essence the technicality of the gravel (probably most - hopefully) sections will be the deciding factor on average speed per team.

'sunrise/sunset' must not be read literally.  the roadbook could give exact times and the GPS will confirm movement.

**
For me the prize money is the issue.  It can turn into a huge mess very quickly.  It will (could) also discourage competitors.  I do not have an answer but options like bigger spread for prizes like 1st to 25th or smaller 1st but a seq. of raffles( again 25 ??)  Value of 1st could be twice the entry fee and then down the line.  Me think that will entice much more entrants.

But nou ja that is just my thoughts.  :pot:

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Cracker on November 27, 2016, 06:34:42 pm
Why involve MSA? Assuming it's not a closed-course race but more of a navigation challenge, on public roads/areas - why are licenses necessary?

There are tons of big bikes out there, ridden by adventurers all and every day - a very big pool of potential competitiors. Only a handful bother with racing at all.

I'm attracted to the adventure this will give - I have no interest in prize money. Handing it out to some poor folk along the way would suit me.

I haven't voted but I'd really like to do something like this - good luck.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Crossed-up on November 27, 2016, 07:10:52 pm
An MSA licence provides medical and other insurances and indemnities etc. Absolutely essential. Your own insurances and medical aids would probably not pay for anything that goes wrong on an event like this, nor will they pay 3rd party damages.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Andy660 on November 27, 2016, 09:40:21 pm
First I need a sponsor ?
Then  , can the " Marshal / Scrutineer  also ride ?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Buff on November 28, 2016, 12:00:52 am
"A team must consist of two members"... can this be a rider and pillion? My wife will not allow me to leave her at home and do something this awesome without her  ;)
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 05:39:18 am
"A team must consist of two members"... can this be a rider and pillion? My wife will not allow me to leave her at home and do something this awesome without her  ;)

Nope. Two bikes. It's about safety. If you are two bikes the org know their is someone close to you should something happen. Also spares, tubes, etc is easier split among two or more team members. The nature of the terrain may also slow a overweight bike down. The route will be designed for a 1 liter bike weighing around 250 - 300 kg loaded, with a confident rider on board.

Because you are a team, you can help each other through tough sections. It won't be much of a challenge if you only get to ride highway gravel. But I won't send you over Devils Breath for instance. But its going to be technical enough.

Riding it with a pax, and a weeks worth of kit may be really tough. She could support you though. Although you don't know the route. You tracker is publicly visible. The 'wife's club' could check every hour where the bikes are and stay on the main roads close by. Then at sundown zoom in your position and bring spares, food, etc. Could be a challenge to keep up though.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 05:48:43 am
I can imagine cheating: ride from sunrise to sunset at the speed limit, then leave the spot tracker and a GPS there. Ride to the nearest town for a comfortable sleep, dinner, shit, shave, shower etc. Leave the next morning again before sunrise, to arrive at your spot tracker and GPS at sunrise for next day's official start.

You could just stop at the closest town near sunset, and have a lekke sleep. Then resume the roadbook where you left off. Remember, you need to do 100% of the roadbook between sunrise and sunset.

If you leave the course and go to find a place to sleep/ eat off the route, that might cost you the next day, as you will
a) have to ride out some fuel to get to where you left off,
b) now have less fuel
c) have to ride longer because you went off route.
d) forfeit race support because you are not on the race route and riding at night.

Keep in mind that HQ is closed down after sunset. You will only get a voicemail message in case of emergency. And if you call me at 22:00 stating rider injury because of a fall, you will:
a) place the rider in danger because I cannot get a aircraft to go anywhere at night.
b) your team will be excluded, 

So like with Amageza, rider safety takes priority.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 05:51:18 am
I like the sound of this  :thumleft:

A clip-on universal RB holder would be good - Adie???

YUP, that is in the pipeline

BUT

The new Rockfox electronic roaddbook (Android) will be 100% for this.  We are looking of making the software (a bit crippled to suit the event) available as a 'purchase'.  Still need to talk to the Boss (Alexander) but it can be even more cost effective than 'proper' eq.. >:D

Just imagine: you hand a memory stick to the org and they load the RB.  You load within seconds on the digital . (there could be a limit to the actual Phone/Tablet to make it cost effective (OTG capable units) Bla Bla Bla.

NAAA, It will not be approved (actuall there will be complaints about 'unfair advantage'  :pot:

B.T.W. I must start saving cos this is gonna cost me some moolahh.

Adie

The rider can use any and all tools, electronic or otherwise. You can have several GPS's with every map on the planet and a UAV overhead. The only time a map will help you, is if you need to get to a town, or identify where the closest town is to your current location. Or to direct your support crew to your location.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 05:59:39 am
Why involve MSA? Assuming it's not a closed-course race but more of a navigation challenge, on public roads/areas - why are licenses necessary?

There are tons of big bikes out there, ridden by adventurers all and every day - a very big pool of potential competitiors. Only a handful bother with racing at all.

I'm attracted to the adventure this will give - I have no interest in prize money. Handing it out to some poor folk along the way would suit me.

I haven't voted but I'd really like to do something like this - good luck.

Its all about third party liability. MSA provides this for both the competitor and the organization. It took me 2 years to get MSA's head around true cross-country racing. This again is something they don't know. So we may, or may not have MSA. Regularity Rallies, like the 'Livingstone Cup' is normally done by classic cars all over the place. Its never been done with bikes to my knowledge. But I'm working on it. Even if you have to join MSA, it could be with a very cheap license, and your Medical Aid covers you in a accident. Remember its not a race in the full sense of the word. Its a navigational and endurance challenge. Nothing more than you following your own track for 4000 km. In this case you just don't know the track and can be penalized if you break certain rules, and can be excluded if you miss the cut-off. In a Regularity Rally, its all about AVERAGE SPEED, not MAXIMUM SPEED. Think hare vs tortoise. Even on Amageza the average speed  is only 59 km/h.

And please vote. I can't really read every post and vote on your behalf.  ;D

YOUR VOTE MATTERS!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 06:04:53 am
I would use the same rules as the X-alps. Your tracker is attached to your kit/bike and has to always be on. It gets a tamper seal. They monitor your heart rate so they can see when you're moving. Start and end times are allocated for each day. It is the same style of race as this only you are on foot or paragliding but have to carry all of your kit.

http://www.redbullxalps.com/

I really think a similar rule set would work well for this race.

Good idea, thanks.

But, can you imagine coming back for your tracker and GPS and its gone. Easiest is to check the total on the GPS vs Bike clock. Although possible to gippo, you are only wasting your own time. We don't really care. If you ride at night off the course, you are not part of the event, so we don't need to support you. Good luck with your recovery and medical support!  :ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 06:05:59 am
I Like!!!

I am in pending the dates.

The date is set, pending interest for:

11 - 16 June 2017
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 06:16:21 am
First I need a sponsor ?
Then  , can the " Marshal / Scrutineer  also ride ?

You may enter indeed!   :biggrin: I'm sure we will find marshals for TLC out of the non-riding marshals!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Pom17 on November 28, 2016, 07:11:55 am
It has been mentioned that if you cant afford it dont attend. But why not leave out the prize money? Make it so hard that only 20% of the field will finish. That way you get some serious bragging rights and surely the entry fee will come down considerably?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Rebelwithacause on November 28, 2016, 08:18:28 am
A date has been set!!! :ricky: :ricky:

need to get some cash together !!! :spitcoffee:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Charel on November 28, 2016, 08:22:58 am
will be keeping an eye on this, sound interesting
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 08:52:51 am
It has been mentioned that if you cant afford it dont attend. But why not leave out the prize money? Make it so hard that only 20% of the field will finish. That way you get some serious bragging rights and surely the entry fee will come down considerably?

Firstly, it's incredibly difficult to gauge the average level of competency among the Adventure Rider fraternity. Even if you have completed every single course offered in South Africa for off-road riding, you'll likely not to be able to complete even one day on the Amageza. On the other side we have had a guy who wrote 'Farm experience only' on his CV, yet finished in the top 10!

Like with any product one has to first gauge interest. One way of doing that is to dangle a carrot. A team of 4 could win the cup, and have a profit of R30 000 each after expenses. (That's if they already have kit). Taking the prizes away will make the entry fee maybe R 1000 cheaper. That's not much in the bigger scheme of things. If I could get a nice big sponsor on board, that will change things considerably. But with only 15 riders interested, not a snowballs chance in hell.

I can't approach KTM. They don't believe in marketing. They believe their bikes are so incredible, they sell themselves. A 'brought to you by KTM' might also scare off the other riders, thinking this is going to be a sausage contest. On the other hand I can't approach BMW for the opposite reason. Although they believe in marketing (hence the 70% motorcycle sales in SA) the general perception is that their riders drive from coffee-shop to coffee-shop, with maybe a bit of gravel to get dust on the bikes. So the KTM riders will think its a duck-walk contest.

Suzuki has nothing one would be interested in.

Yamaha has good bikes, but they seem to only support plastic racing. I have yet to see Yamaha with a presence of more than 1 bike on any Amageza.

That leaves us with Honda. I think to re-launch the Africa-Twin on The Livingstone Cup is perfect for them. As a 'dark-horse' amongst riders, neither BMW nor KTM's will feel intimidated or neglected. I have made contact twice and the response was between about 3, where 0='Not Interested' and 10= 'Hell Yeah'. Like with Amageza I can't allow sponsorship that will detract from the brand. Like getting 'Dove for woman' to sponsor. Even if I'm desperate for the dough, I won't be associated with a 'pussy' brand.

It's time Men were Men again. Enough of the metro-man-I-can-cook-and-knit-and-cry-in-movies crap. Time men do men things. Going on a epic trip with your bike as your trusted friend with mates you will depend on is a start!  >:D

Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: SteveD on November 28, 2016, 09:17:21 am
It's time Men were Men again. Enough of the metro-man-I-can-cook-and-knit-and-cry-in-movies crap. Time men do men things. Going on a epic trip with your bike as your trusted friend with mates you will depend on is a start!  >:D

Ghh. That's a challenge for the lady riders out there. Come on Minxy and Malibu, enter as a team and win it!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Angora Goat on November 28, 2016, 09:22:28 am
I like the plan.  The less rules the better, although I support some limits on speeding.  One favour please - No tracks via Zimbabwe - Just too much of a nightmare dealing with the authority, roadblocks, etc.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on November 28, 2016, 09:36:44 am
Lekker. I just spoke to the Boss to see if I would be able to go on a "tour" that week. We are normally doing fieldwork from end of May until September so winter is normally a no go but this time an exception can be made  :ricky:

So, now to find money/sponsors/a rich wife/the missing kruger rands  >:D
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on November 28, 2016, 10:18:09 am
So just to make sure I understand correctly, if this is pitched for 1000cc bikes then a KLR650 will do it as well?

I ask because myself and my potential team mate can only compete if we can use our regular bikes.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 10:48:12 am
So just to make sure I understand correctly, if this is pitched for 1000cc bikes then a KLR650 will do it as well?

I ask because myself and my potential team mate can only compete if we can use our regular bikes.

You can enter on a 50cc 2-stroke. But its doable on a 1200cc . So the target market is the 1-liter class market. I would prefer a KTM 690 or Husky 700 with a Thomas Eich (Omega) rally kit on!  ;D
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Orangeswifty on November 28, 2016, 10:49:27 am
It's time Men were Men again. Enough of the metro-man-I-can-cook-and-knit-and-cry-in-movies crap. Time men do men things. Going on a epic trip with your bike as your trusted friend with mates you will depend on is a start!  >:D

 :thumleft:
I like the way you think :ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on November 28, 2016, 11:08:49 am
So just to make sure I understand correctly, if this is pitched for 1000cc bikes then a KLR650 will do it as well?

I ask because myself and my potential team mate can only compete if we can use our regular bikes.

You can enter on a 50cc 2-stroke. But its doable on a 1200cc . So the target market is the 1-liter class market. I would prefer a KTM 690 or Husky 700 with a Thomas Eich (Omega) rally kit on!  ;D

Awesome :ricky: Time to gear up my scheming. In the process again of buying a bike, once that scheming is successful stage two will start so I can fund these shenanigans.  O0

Always wanted to do a rally style race, reckon this will be a good start. Time to study how to navigate with a roadbook though  :lamer:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: BlueBull2007 on November 28, 2016, 11:53:28 am
I like the plan.  The less rules the better, although I support some limits on speeding.  One favour please - No tracks via Zimbabwe - Just too much of a nightmare dealing with the authority, roadblocks, etc.

Cops are only on the main roads, in Zim which we would not be on. :deal:

Anyway, you don't have to be afraid of them, just never pay a bribe.  :deal:

Anyway, most of them are actually nice guys, just really desperate

Anyway, Zim has some really, really awesome DS riding.

Anyway border delays and drama is supposed to be part of the challenge (just never pay a bribe or a fixer).

Anyway, you heard what he said "It's time Men were Men again. Enough of the metro-man-I-can-cook-and-knit-and-cry-in-movies crap." :imaposer:

Come on Zimbabwe would be fun! (I just don't know if Alexander is man enough to go up there ;) :peepwall: )

:ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: bud500 on November 28, 2016, 12:58:44 pm
Sub.

Sounds interesting.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on November 28, 2016, 01:26:30 pm

Anyway, Zim has some really, really awesome DS riding.

Anyway border delays and drama is supposed to be part of the challenge (just never pay a bribe or a fixer).

Anyway, you heard what he said "It's time Men were Men again. Enough of the metro-man-I-can-cook-and-knit-and-cry-in-movies crap." :imaposer:

Come on Zimbabwe would be fun! (I just don't know if Alexander is man enough to go up there ;) :peepwall: )

:ricky:

There is always this struggle with what I want to do, what I have to do, what others want me to do, what FIM Africa wants me to do, etc. At the end of the day I think Nam and Bots is a good starting point for this event. Its familiar, I have contacts there and in particular Botswana where we have raced last year. To try and get the government on our side in Zim may be futile and will require the entry fee to double to cover the documented, and undocumented costs...

You know, if this works, we may be able to change rally for the better. Back to real men. No support teams, no luxury thorn-free bivvies.... :biggrin:

Even for this year. We can start it within 2000 km of Cape Town. That can be Moz, Nam, Bots and a Angola. But I think for year 1, stay in area's I know every bush, track and farmer. And where I have good relations with the government. So most likely Northern Cape & Botswana, with some Namibia to keep everyone honest  :biggrin:

On the other hand. We can just about go anywhere. Bot we'll stay south of Angola, Zim and Zam for now.

Come on VOTE!!  If we have 100 + votes it's worth opening entries for it.:thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Pom17 on November 28, 2016, 02:06:29 pm
Would love to give it a go but my commitment already on the enduro bike scene wont financially allow it  :-[

And if this event picks up it will for sure be a massive thing. Huge market to attract.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: DE on November 28, 2016, 02:24:17 pm
Come on VOTE!!  :deal: :deal: :ricky: :ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: RubKLE on November 28, 2016, 02:53:28 pm
I understand the burger and bread argument but for some of us this type of advenure will stay a dream. It's not just about the fee but there is a lot of stuff planned and unforeseen that goes into a project like this. But that is just life seperating the strong from the weak. If you have a button that says- this is my dream- then I'll gladly vote :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Minxy on November 29, 2016, 04:11:21 pm
It's time Men were Men again. Enough of the metro-man-I-can-cook-and-knit-and-cry-in-movies crap. Time men do men things. Going on a epic trip with your bike as your trusted friend with mates you will depend on is a start!  >:D

Ghh. That's a challenge for the lady riders out there. Come on Minxy and Malibu, enter as a team and win it!

Girl power! It would be totally epic having Judy there on the 690 and myself on the 701 :ricky:
Or even a couples team. Myself with HSK, and Judy and Mark.
I really, really like the idea of this race. Can't wait for more details!
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Malibu on November 29, 2016, 04:43:04 pm
It's time Men were Men again. Enough of the metro-man-I-can-cook-and-knit-and-cry-in-movies crap. Time men do men things. Going on a epic trip with your bike as your trusted friend with mates you will depend on is a start!  >:D

Ghh. That's a challenge for the lady riders out there. Come on Minxy and Malibu, enter as a team and win it!

Girl power! It would be totally epic having Judy there on the 690 and myself on the 701 :ricky:
Or even a couples team. Myself with HSK, and Judy and Mark.
I really, really like the idea of this race. Can't wait for more details!

:)
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Koos van den Heever on November 29, 2016, 05:33:05 pm
 :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: tour on November 30, 2016, 07:00:50 am
this sounds very cool. But i am sure some peeps might be very worried about the NAVIGATIONAL side of this so i came up with an answer to the worries.

For an inexperienced team of people that would like to partake but the unknown fear of Navigation is holding you back,  why not use an experienced Amageza rider like Gerrit, Claude and myself to be your navigator.
We would be able to sell our services, price of entry, to your team and so give you a fighting chance of completing this amazing challenge.
Let that sink in for a while. It might actually be a great help to people that want to ride and to give us cheapskates a chance too. 
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: bud500 on November 30, 2016, 09:58:27 am
Having thought about this for a while and discussed it with a few Mates, I still think it sounds interesting but don't think it is practical for a lot of DS riders.
For R20 000 (entry + fuel) I could do an epic ride, just like this, probably for longer and yes without immediate medical back up.

So as Camelman said, if no one is interested, he and a buddy will go do it anyway. I agree, if I can get the time off and some funds together, me and a buddy or more can go do a 7 day trip anyway, probably for less and without missing all the scenery.

Yes maybe I am missing the point and don't know what real adventure is....
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: zebra - Flying Brick on November 30, 2016, 12:00:12 pm
A seriously interesting concept, Alex  :thumleft:

Good luck, and subscribe  :sip:
Chris
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Cracker on November 30, 2016, 12:04:10 pm
You're quite right, this can be done for less and you can have an epic adventure elsewhere - we do it all the time, don't we?

But, you are missing the point. this is not about the money - it's about the challenge.

A gauntlet has been thrown down - are you gonna pick it up?

And medical? Pah, I got some buddies, some cell phones, some money and some medical aid - that's what I always use to get me out the shit.

Or am I missing the point?  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Koos van den Heever on November 30, 2016, 12:47:02 pm
You're quite right, this can be done for less and you can have an epic adventure elsewhere - we do it all the time, don't we?

But, you are missing the point. this is not about the money - it's about the challenge.

A gauntlet has been thrown down - are you gonna pick it up?

And medical? Pah, I got some buddies, some cell phones, some money and some medical aid - that's what I always use to get me out the shit.

Or am I missing the point?  :biggrin:

I agree!!!  For me it is "Challenge accepted"!!!   >:D
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: bud500 on November 30, 2016, 01:01:54 pm

But, you are missing the point. this is not about the money - it's about the challenge.


I understand your points and your passion, nothing wrong with that.
But in this thread a few references are made to the big possible target market pool, I just think the pool is much smaller than anticipated, probably the size of the Amageza field. This is because a lot of the time it is about the money and it is about the time. Those are real constraints for a lot of people, which doesn't mean those people don't have the passion or interest in such an event.

Unfortunately in a lot of cases "Challenge accepted" doesn't refer to the event at all but rather the means of affording a multi thousand rand outing for a week. In which case cheaper alternatives are real competition for an event like this.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on November 30, 2016, 01:20:42 pm
Amageza entry fee is not the show stopper in my opinion, getting the right bike, long range tanks for 275km racing range, fitting nav towers and the roadbooks/ICOs, 4 - 5 sets of tires with spare wheels, these are the mega bucks issues.  For this event, you use your standard F800GS with a new set of Mitas E07s on it.  Nothing else. Except fuel and a sleeping bag. :lol8:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on November 30, 2016, 01:34:40 pm
Amageza entry fee is not the show stopper in my opinion, getting the right bike, long range tanks for 275km racing range, fitting nav towers and the roadbooks/ICOs, 4 - 5 sets of tires with spare wheels, these are the mega bucks issues.  For this event, you use your standard F800GS with a new set of Mitas E07s on it.  Nothing else. Except fuel and a sleeping bag. :lol8:

That is exactly it. Aside from entry and fuel you have no significant costs. What has stopped me from rally racing is the R100k+ to buy and kit a bike
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 30, 2016, 02:07:49 pm
Having thought about this for a while and discussed it with a few Mates, I still think it sounds interesting but don't think it is practical for a lot of DS riders.
For R20 000 (entry + fuel) I could do an epic ride, just like this, probably for longer and yes without immediate medical back up.

So as Camelman said, if no one is interested, he and a buddy will go do it anyway. I agree, if I can get the time off and some funds together, me and a buddy or more can go do a 7 day trip anyway, probably for less and without missing all the scenery.

Yes maybe I am missing the point and don't know what real adventure is....

Ok, which would you like/enjoy more:
1: An evening at home with friends spent with drinks and banter
or
2. Go to a bub with the same friends and have a few drinks and banter there.

Most will say 'lets go to the Pub'.  There are just something 'more' if the human being do a 'challenging' activity. (Dunno what's the challenge in the pub, maybe the noise, the music, the hard barstools,??)

So the R15 000.00 entry fee is the same as paying R40.00 for a Rum and Coke at the pub, Its the ambiance, noise, kak stool, etc etc but we still go. AND don't get crapped out when you spill the Rum on the carpet.

It is simple, you PAY for the challange, otherwise it is 'just a trip with mates'

I need to get a riding partner for this.  Maybe we must start a 'Buddy thread' for us lone riders.

adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on November 30, 2016, 02:34:01 pm
After approaching the minister of Finance for Funds Release, I was given a resounding "Go for It!" - her previous option was for me to try Amageza, but I am really to kak sleg for that, so she is extremely pleased that something like this may be available to get me away for a week or so. So I am in. providing I can get the following obstacles turned away.
 - Money for everything is required - best sales get up a bit.....
 - A bike - I have a 2010 GSA that would work, but as we know, a 701 on the bond would be better.
 - while we are bonding things - new riding kit.
 - A Team - either tag onto an existing one, or find mates with bikes & loot.
 - A support team - OK - my mates from the Cape would be keen to run backup in Land Cruisers - so this is already arranged.
Where do I sign?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Cdp13 on November 30, 2016, 08:45:20 pm
After approaching the minister of Finance for Funds Release, I was given a resounding "Go for It!" - her previous option was for me to try Amageza, but I am really to kak sleg for that, so she is extremely pleased that something like this may be available to get me away for a week or so. So I am in. providing I can get the following obstacles turned away.
 - Money for everything is required - best sales get up a bit.....
 - A bike - I have a 2010 GSA that would work, but as we know, a 701 on the bond would be better.
 - while we are bonding things - new riding kit.
 - A Team - either tag onto an existing one, or find mates with bikes & loot.
 - A support team - OK - my mates from the Cape would be keen to run backup in Land Cruisers - so this is already arranged.
Where do I sign?

I like your enthusiasm. My Minister has also given her blessing.

Just a quick question: Why are you considering a back-up team? I might be wrong, but I don't reckon an oil change and tyre swop will be necessary every night. So not a massive amount of spares, tyres etc etc will be necessary. The whole challenge IMHO is in doing a 4000km trip unassisted.

What do you think?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on November 30, 2016, 10:02:42 pm
I've been looking through my long distance trips, some solo and some as a group of three, where I rode long distances each day. Four trips between 3000 and 4500km each. 3 trips was more than 80% gravel and one only about 20% gravel.  This was done with a fully loaded 1200GS - tent and all. (Once included safety boots as it was work trips)

I came to the following conclusion.

Doing an average of 900km per day for 4 and a half days on mostly gravel is not for sissies. then you need to get to the start as well and then back home.  That alone can add another 1000km to the trip.  Just for perspective if you look at the map 4000km is almost circumnavigating RSA.

I am not talking about the gravel to Tankwa or Stonehenge where you can sit comfortably at 120. I think more of Seweweeks Poort en Die HEL type of roads where the average speed will be much closer to 75kph.  Throw in a day with rain and it will suddenly be a real endurance.

3 of us did a 4 day 2000km 90% gravel trip from Cape Town to Baviaans-Steytlerville Die Hel and back. Two and a half days of rain made it a real test of strength.

Those of us that know Alexander will appreciate the effort he will put in to select 'scenic' tracks.  Mark my words 'tracks' not roads. >:D

I think my weapon of choice will be 650 to 800cc

dit maak mens dink.

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Rebelwithacause on December 01, 2016, 07:32:30 am
I've been looking through my long distance trips, some solo and some as a group of three, where I rode long distances each day. Four trips between 3000 and 4500km each. 3 trips was more than 80% gravel and one only about 20% gravel.  This was done with a fully loaded 1200GS - tent and all. (Once included safety boots as it was work trips)

I came to the following conclusion.

Doing an average of 900km per day for 4 and a half days on mostly gravel is not for sissies. then you need to get to the start as well and then back home.  That alone can add another 1000km to the trip.  Just for perspective if you look at the map 4000km is almost circumnavigating RSA.

I am not talking about the gravel to Tankwa or Stonehenge where you can sit comfortably at 120. I think more of Seweweeks Poort en Die HEL type of roads where the average speed will be much closer to 75kph.  Throw in a day with rain and it will suddenly be a real endurance.

3 of us did a 4 day 2000km 90% gravel trip from Cape Town to Baviaans-Steytlerville Die Hel and back. Two and a half days of rain made it a real test of strength.

Those of us that know Alexander will appreciate the effort he will put in to select 'scenic' tracks.  Mark my words 'tracks' not roads. >:D

I think my weapon of choice will be 650 to 800cc

dit maak mens dink.

Adie

Ja I agree, riding a biggish loaded, even not very heavily, for 4 to 5 days on gravel roads will definitely bring out the tough in you. It will be pretty hard work, but thats what we want. Its a talent to be able to push on and love being uncomfortable for long amounts of time.

Hahaha, also don't forget the 1000k's back home after the fun and games.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 01, 2016, 07:38:56 am
After approaching the minister of Finance for Funds Release, I was given a resounding "Go for It!" - her previous option was for me to try Amageza, but I am really to kak sleg for that, so she is extremely pleased that something like this may be available to get me away for a week or so. So I am in. providing I can get the following obstacles turned away.
 - Money for everything is required - best sales get up a bit.....
 - A bike - I have a 2010 GSA that would work, but as we know, a 701 on the bond would be better.
 - while we are bonding things - new riding kit.
 - A Team - either tag onto an existing one, or find mates with bikes & loot.
 - A support team - OK - my mates from the Cape would be keen to run backup in Land Cruisers - so this is already arranged.
Where do I sign?

I like your enthusiasm. My Minister has also given her blessing.

Just a quick question: Why are you considering a back-up team? I might be wrong, but I don't reckon an oil change and tyre swop will be necessary every night. So not a massive amount of spares, tyres etc etc will be necessary. The whole challenge IMHO is in doing a 4000km trip unassisted.

What do you think?

I agree - and I wait in trepidation to hear from the Backup Team - the only reason they want to be involved, is because they are my mates, they don't ride bikes, they love playing outdoors (camping, climbing, 4x4's) and they have Land cruiser pickups - they will pitch tents and make food, that's probably all.

I am seriously going to look for a 701, need a long range tank, or perhaps a 690 with a Rallye kit, something like that, and go minimal. I need some new gear, but that will be what it is. At the very worst I will use the GSA, not ideal I don't think. Maybe a modified XR650L, DR650SE....... Will have to see whats available.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: DE on December 01, 2016, 07:39:35 am
A date has been set!!! :ricky: :ricky:

need to get some cash together !!! :spitcoffee:

Hi Rebel - you planning to take your KLR?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Rebelwithacause on December 01, 2016, 08:02:48 am
A date has been set!!! :ricky: :ricky:

need to get some cash together !!! :spitcoffee:

Hi Rebel - you planning to take your KLR?

My KLR and I are one!

Might just need to fit a long range oil tank, hahahah, but ja! I am planning to! might hate myself for it later...but im sure the pig will do it.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Cdp13 on December 01, 2016, 09:37:18 am
After approaching the minister of Finance for Funds Release, I was given a resounding "Go for It!" - her previous option was for me to try Amageza, but I am really to kak sleg for that, so she is extremely pleased that something like this may be available to get me away for a week or so. So I am in. providing I can get the following obstacles turned away.
 - Money for everything is required - best sales get up a bit.....
 - A bike - I have a 2010 GSA that would work, but as we know, a 701 on the bond would be better.
 - while we are bonding things - new riding kit.
 - A Team - either tag onto an existing one, or find mates with bikes & loot.
 - A support team - OK - my mates from the Cape would be keen to run backup in Land Cruisers - so this is already arranged.
Where do I sign?

I like your enthusiasm. My Minister has also given her blessing.

Just a quick question: Why are you considering a back-up team? I might be wrong, but I don't reckon an oil change and tyre swop will be necessary every night. So not a massive amount of spares, tyres etc etc will be necessary. The whole challenge IMHO is in doing a 4000km trip unassisted.

What do you think?

I agree - and I wait in trepidation to hear from the Backup Team - the only reason they want to be involved, is because they are my mates, they don't ride bikes, they love playing outdoors (camping, climbing, 4x4's) and they have Land cruiser pickups - they will pitch tents and make food, that's probably all.

I am seriously going to look for a 701, need a long range tank, or perhaps a 690 with a Rallye kit, something like that, and go minimal. I need some new gear, but that will be what it is. At the very worst I will use the GSA, not ideal I don't think. Maybe a modified XR650L, DR650SE....... Will have to see whats available.

OK no awesome  :thumleft: I just have pissies for mates then haha

Re bike setup, like Adie also said - it will be mostly (hopefully) "tracks" as opposed main/smooth roads. Anything from a 650 - 1200 will work, just depends where and how much you want to struggle. Rider capability obviously is a factor as well.

I'm a very average rider so will go on 701, just need extra fuel. But my potential team mate is a very talented rider and will go with his GSA.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Orangeswifty on December 01, 2016, 11:59:19 am
this sounds very cool. But i am sure some peeps might be very worried about the NAVIGATIONAL side of this so i came up with an answer to the worries.

For an inexperienced team of people that would like to partake but the unknown fear of Navigation is holding you back,  why not use an experienced Amageza rider like Gerrit, Claude and myself to be your navigator.
We would be able to sell our services, price of entry, to your team and so give you a fighting chance of completing this amazing challenge.
Let that sink in for a while. It might actually be a great help to people that want to ride and to give us cheapskates a chance too.
Nice try Rudie
 :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 01, 2016, 02:20:38 pm

 - A support team - OK - my mates from the Cape would be keen to run backup in Land Cruisers - so this is already arranged.
Where do I sign?

I'm not sure that I would take a backup team along.  I would ride sunrise to sunset and sleep exactly where I stop. Organising backup to meet up with you when you are nav-ing from a roadbook without GPS waypoints will be tricky.  You will basically need to get to your stop-off point and send them the lats/longs with the sat phone.  Then wait x-number of hours for them to arrive.  What I would like is somebody with a chopper and a night rating that could ferry in spares and extra coffee. 
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 02, 2016, 11:44:57 am
My business partner agreed that should certain sales targets be met, we can afford a new (701) delivery bike - as long as we can brand it.

Me like that arrangement.

Very Much Indeed.....

Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: zebra - Flying Brick on December 02, 2016, 11:55:37 am
My business partner agreed that should certain sales targets be met, we can afford a new (701) delivery bike - as long as we can brand it.

Me like that arrangement.

Very Much Indeed.....
wow, now that IS cool!
Well done!  :thumleft:
Chris & Team
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Rebelwithacause on December 02, 2016, 12:28:59 pm
On the same note, hahaha, anyone here like to put branding on my bike then?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: LionBuell on December 03, 2016, 03:06:36 am
I also like the idea. Im a very average rider. So to me to go and do this "race" would be silly. I think i would be out after the first day. That would make it a big waste of money. If i was allowed to continue unofficially that would be fine with me. The entry fee is ok. Maybe Triumph could be a potential sponsor with the Bear Grills type of adverising?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Dustman on December 03, 2016, 06:12:35 am
 :sip:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on December 04, 2016, 10:20:57 am
I also like the idea. Im a very average rider. So to me to go and do this "race" would be silly. I think i would be out after the first day. That would make it a big waste of money. If i was allowed to continue unofficially that would be fine with me. The entry fee is ok. Maybe Triumph could be a potential sponsor with the Bear Grills type of adverising?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Or you could train and become a better-than-average rider?  ;)
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on December 04, 2016, 10:23:30 am
this sounds very cool. But i am sure some peeps might be very worried about the NAVIGATIONAL side of this so i came up with an answer to the worries.

For an inexperienced team of people that would like to partake but the unknown fear of Navigation is holding you back,  why not use an experienced Amageza rider like Gerrit, Claude and myself to be your navigator.
We would be able to sell our services, price of entry, to your team and so give you a fighting chance of completing this amazing challenge.
Let that sink in for a while. It might actually be a great help to people that want to ride and to give us cheapskates a chance too.

This is a good idea. These riders (tour & scrat) have never not completed a Amageza. Scrat has done every songle Amageza Rally since 2011. They may not finish in the top 10, but they know how to get through in one piece on a shoestring budget!  :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: DE on December 05, 2016, 12:48:53 pm
What needs to change to make this event happen?

- Extended voting time to spread the news?
- Reduce inputs from organiser to reduce input costs?
- Remove nav by road book?
- Change the dates?

I really like this adventures idea and will even pay a deposit today to ensure I am at the start  :ricky: :ricky:


 

Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Cracker on December 05, 2016, 04:57:15 pm
Reply #3 on page 1 will cut costs.

More focus on adventure/challenge and drop the word race. Let it develop into a race, or wherever it heads.

Times are tough in this here country and I'm seeing riding decline all over, whether it's the weekend warriors, the off-road racers or the DS market. Even going on short 4/5 day trips sees me in empty hotels/B&Bs.

It may well be the wrong time to try anything new ...................  :(
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 05, 2016, 05:22:27 pm
 :peepwall:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: YoungGSer on December 05, 2016, 06:38:01 pm
Climbingturtle directed to me to this here discussion, I have to say that I am sitting in very icy mud island (UK) salivating at the prospect of doing this adventure/race. It looks like a fantastic idea if the big bikes are truly able to complete the route in the prescribed time under "normal" conditions and an average to slightly above average level of riding skill.

I think that the Husqie 701"delivery bike for tax purposes" would be more suited than a my standard GS though.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race
Post by: DE on December 05, 2016, 08:03:26 pm
Like the bigger bike idea but instead of making it a race how about the riders must find points of interest.
If you miss some you lose points.A tour with added interest.

 :thumleft: :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on December 05, 2016, 09:20:22 pm
Ok, the challenge and the math.

Distance: 4000km Target time: 5 days.  Average 800km per day.

BUT THEN:
1: Take Upington as reference for 14th June and the sunrise/sunset time is only 10h15 per day. (7:25 - 17:45)  Average speed required 78kph
2: 4 border crossings (maybe 3) at 30min per side =  4 hours.
3: Refuel 3 times per day at 15min ea. = 3 hours
4: Rest breaks other than during refuel 2 of 15min per day = 2 hours.

This leaves us with only 42h25 riding time for the 4000 km if to be completed in 5 days.  Average now 94kph.

Lets look at the proposed route type as per earlier post.
1: Normal gravel       50%       2000km  @ 120kph = 16 hours
2: Jeep hard packed 20%         800km  @ 80kph   = 10 hours
3: Jeep Soft             20%         800km  @ 50kph   = 16 hours
4: Jeep rough             5%         200km  @ 30kph   =  7 hours
5: Other (Tar ??)         5%         200km  @ 140kph =  1h30

TOTAL time                                                            50h30 BUT based on the 'downtime' there are only 42 'riding' hours available.

Laat mens dink.

Laastens, as die projek nie materialiseer sal ek BETAAL om die roete te kry sodat 'ons dit op ons eie' kan doen.

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: tehdutchie on December 06, 2016, 12:03:43 am
I also like the idea. Im a very average rider. So to me to go and do this "race" would be silly. I think i would be out after the first day. That would make it a big waste of money. If i was allowed to continue unofficially that would be fine with me. The entry fee is ok. Maybe Triumph could be a potential sponsor with the Bear Grills type of adverising?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Or you could train and become a better-than-average rider?  ;)

If you need a sweeper, I'm available to turn this into a nice holiday  :biggrin: Found a great place that hires brand new Hi-Lux's with unlimited mileage  :imaposer:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 06, 2016, 08:22:50 am
We might have some deaths from sleeping next to a bike in the Kalahari in June  >:D.  Coldest morning I've seen in Upington was - 7C.  Will need to carry more than just a sleeping bag (which was my plan).
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 09:04:16 am
We might have some deaths from sleeping next to a bike in the Kalahari in June  >:D.  Coldest morning I've seen in Upington was - 7C.  Will need to carry more than just a sleeping bag (which was my plan).

Or get a proper sleeping bag? Seriously though, I spend a lot of time in the field in winter and often just sleep on a foam mattress outside (too lazy to pitch tent every night for two months). Sleeping bag with a -5 rating and a thermal liner and you're good to go down to about -10 or so.

If that fails, I've heard a teaspoon of PPC's prime product might also solve the problem  :pot:

also, there's always whisky  O0
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 06, 2016, 09:48:07 am
I think we might have this conversation again in the future.  That is if you who are willing to prescribe PPC are in fact in the race :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 09:53:32 am
 :laughing4: with pleasure. One has to stir up kak sometimes  :peepwall:

The only thing that has kept me from racing before has been finances, and the only thing that would stop me this time would be same. I am going to scheme to get a sponsor for my entry if possible. The boss has already agreed that he can do without me for that week.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 06, 2016, 09:57:12 am
Maybe PPC will in fact sponsor you...
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 09:58:46 am
Maybe PPC will in fact sponsor you...

I don't mind who sponsors me, hell, I'll ride for team "Sipho's Spaza" if that gets me in the race  :ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 10:22:09 am
On a lighter note, just want to check that I've got this right, the minimum gear needed for a team of 2 will be:
2x bikes
2x spot trackers
1x roadbook holder
1x gps (1 per bike would be better though)
whatever else you need to sleep, eat survive, maintenance etc.

Am I missing anything? I want to start working out a "Race budget" to get my scheming on track.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: DE on December 06, 2016, 10:38:14 am
On a lighter note, just want to check that I've got this right, the minimum gear needed for a team of 2 will be:
2x bikes
2x spot trackers
1x roadbook holder
1x gps (1 per bike would be better though)
whatever else you need to sleep, eat survive, maintenance etc.

Am I missing anything? I want to start working out a "Race budget" to get my scheming on track.

I think only 1 x spot tracker per team.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: zebra - Flying Brick on December 06, 2016, 10:48:49 am
On a lighter note, just want to check that I've got this right, the minimum gear needed for a team of 2 will be:
2x bikes
2x spot trackers
1x roadbook holder
1x gps (1 per bike would be better though)
whatever else you need to sleep, eat survive, maintenance etc.

Am I missing anything? I want to start working out a "Race budget" to get my scheming on track.

I think only 1 x spot tracker per team.
semi- hi-jack, but I DO think its relevant:
SPOT is having an end-of-year promotion: 01st December to 31st December, whereby you pay only 50% of the 1st-years tracking/monitoring fee of the SPOT Tracker device, ON NEW ACTIVATIONS.

So roughly 50% of $160 = $80 for the first year, or around R1100.
Please don't reply on this thread, rather PM or e-mail, or call...
Hijack OFF
Chris & Team
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 06, 2016, 10:50:35 am
On a lighter note, just want to check that I've got this right, the minimum gear needed for a team of 2 will be:
2x bikes
2x spot trackers
1x roadbook holder
1x gps (1 per bike would be better though)
whatever else you need to sleep, eat survive, maintenance etc.

Am I missing anything? I want to start working out a "Race budget" to get my scheming on track.

Good Idea!
So far we have
2 x R1200GS (one is the Adv)
1 x Garmin 660Zumo
1 x Adie to supply the roadbook holder. Roadbook Holder on a GSA - that's a novel idea!! Adie, comments?

To buy:-
2 x Replacement Husky 701's
2 x Nav Tower (OK, this is a wish)
1 x Garmin 64s or something similar, with holder & power cable
2 x Soft Luggage - Panniers are not going to cut it.
2 x Mini-screens - so as not to smash the OEM ones.
2 x sets TKC', Karoo's or something.
2 x Cold Weather Sleeping Bags....
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: GraZer on December 06, 2016, 11:11:29 am
Roadbook navigation will also require an ICO or similar device for distance. The GPS may suffice for CAP headings else another ICO or similar will also be required.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 11:13:03 am
Roadbook navigation will also require an ICO or similar device for distance. The GPS may suffice for CAP headings else another ICO or similar will also be required.
Would a odo trip not work for that?

I did think to add an ICO anyhow as that will make it easier but the trip on something like a Vapor should be fine as well?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: DE on December 06, 2016, 11:22:43 am
Camelman can you open the voting again as I think there is still hope for this event?  :3some:

Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 06, 2016, 11:52:56 am
I was thinking of a iPhone 4 or 5 for CAP & ICO? Run them off of the Aux Power Supply.....
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 12:05:11 pm
I was thinking of a iPhone 4 or 5 for CAP & ICO? Run them off of the Aux Power Supply.....
:imaposer: How much is the Apple rally app going to cost you  :peepwall:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 06, 2016, 12:23:25 pm
I was thinking of a iPhone 4 or 5 for CAP & ICO? Run them off of the Aux Power Supply.....
:imaposer: How much is the Apple rally app going to cost you  :peepwall:

R299.99 - its called RallyBlitz Nav - it's actually a Rally Odo and CAP repeater - I seem to remember someone used 2 of these in the Amageza last year iirc?
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 01:02:34 pm
I was thinking of a iPhone 4 or 5 for CAP & ICO? Run them off of the Aux Power Supply.....
:imaposer: How much is the Apple rally app going to cost you  :peepwall:

R299.99 - its called RallyBlitz Nav - it's actually a Rally Odo and CAP repeater - I seem to remember someone used 2 of these in the Amageza last year iirc?

Shit, I was joking and then you tell me actually exists. Soon apps will take over in the bedroom as well :patch:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 06, 2016, 01:03:55 pm
I was thinking of a iPhone 4 or 5 for CAP & ICO? Run them off of the Aux Power Supply.....
:imaposer: How much is the Apple rally app going to cost you  :peepwall:

R299.99 - its called RallyBlitz Nav - it's actually a Rally Odo and CAP repeater - I seem to remember someone used 2 of these in the Amageza last year iirc?

Shit, I was joking and then you tell me actually exists. Soon apps will take over in the bedroom as well :patch:

It's called PornHub.....
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 06, 2016, 01:04:40 pm
I was thinking of a iPhone 4 or 5 for CAP & ICO? Run them off of the Aux Power Supply.....
:imaposer: How much is the Apple rally app going to cost you  :peepwall:

R299.99 - its called RallyBlitz Nav - it's actually a Rally Odo and CAP repeater - I seem to remember someone used 2 of these in the Amageza last year iirc?

Shit, I was joking and then you tell me actually exists. Soon apps will take over in the bedroom as well :patch:

It's called PornHub.....
:laughing4: :3some:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on December 06, 2016, 01:17:44 pm
Good Idea!
So far we have
2 x R1200GS (one is the Adv)
1 x Garmin 660Zumo
1 x Adie to supply the roadbook holder. Roadbook Holder on a GSA - that's a novel idea!! Adie, comments?

Lots of things happening here.
We are in the process of building a 7" (Android device) holder that will fit directly on the handlebar (between the clamps) 


The software will be available separately for around R350.00  It will include Roadbook, trip and CAP.  It does include full recording of the trip etc etc. Basically all you need.  Again we might include other features as well.  The holder will include the charger and optional button interface with standard ICO/F2R/Rockfox plugs. If you use your own enclosure the touch screen will still be available.

Dit maak mens dink.  Op een of ander manier moet ek my belegging herwin.   >:D

forgot the Pic.  Sample screen (with some other management things which will be 'hidden'

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Charel on December 06, 2016, 01:21:40 pm
.. (double post, sorry)
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Charel on December 06, 2016, 01:22:28 pm

Adie,

This sounds very interesting, will be keeping an eye out for this.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: GraZer on December 07, 2016, 06:06:29 am
Would a odo trip not work for that?

I did think to add an ICO anyhow as that will make it easier but the trip on something like a Vapor should be fine as well?

No, as it is not possible to calibrate the odo to the roadbook as you go. The roadbook distance and odo will differ more and more as the distance grows making it impossible to know exactly where to turn. Especially when the roadbook distances are to two decimal places (10m). Although it is more practical to round the distances up to one decimal place (100m).
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 07, 2016, 07:53:31 am
Would a odo trip not work for that?

I did think to add an ICO anyhow as that will make it easier but the trip on something like a Vapor should be fine as well?

No, as it is not possible to calibrate the odo to the roadbook as you go. The roadbook distance and odo will differ more and more as the distance grows making it impossible to know exactly where to turn. Especially when the roadbook distances are to two decimal places (10m). Although it is more practical to round the distances up to one decimal place (100m).

Ok thanks. Suspected something along that line.

I've done a bit of orienteering which involves a very similar style of navigation while running cross country, but not at 100kmh+  :lol8:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Cracker on December 07, 2016, 07:54:35 am
A Vapor won't work but a Striker will. It will save you money and can be used as a normal speedo, etc  :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: zebra - Flying Brick on December 07, 2016, 02:55:15 pm
Quote

I agree - and I wait in trepidation to hear from the Backup Team - the only reason they want to be involved, is because they are my mates, they don't ride bikes, they love playing outdoors (camping, climbing, 4x4's) and they have Land cruiser pickups - they will pitch tents and make food, that's probably all.

I am seriously going to look for a 701, need a long range tank, or perhaps a 690 with a Rallye kit, something like that, and go minimal. I need some new gear, but that will be what it is. At the very worst I will use the GSA, not ideal I don't think. Maybe a modified XR650L, DR650SE....... Will have to see whats available.
unashamed 'left-field' thinking here... indulge me...  ;) Flame-suit-ON  :komet:   :biggrin:

the 2nd-hand BMW 650 T-W-I-N can be had cheaply, since most guys want it's Big Brother, the 800GS, for posing value  >:D
(The engine actually produces a little more torque at a lower rpm. Only at highway speeds and above does the 800 really outshine the 650twin)
Part of improved acceleration of the 800 is the fact that it has lower gearing with a 16 tooth front sprocket vs a 17 for the 650. They are interchangeable. The suspension and ground clearance is the biggie, beefier units, 2 inches more travel and ground clearance. Though in all honesty BMW 800 suspension is not state of the art and requires some mods for the rockier and potholed offroad stuff. There are mods to be had for the 650 suspension that will greatly improve that suspension as well. Respring for your weight with one of the cartridge emulators will greatly improve offroad behavior. The last is the wheels. Cast tubless versus spoke tubed and a 19 vs 21" front wheel. There are numerous reports of the spoked wheels bending on hard impacts, including mine. I think the spoke rims are soft and wider than needed for a dirt orientated bike. Fixes are expensive. I know nothing about the cast, but would think they would be adequate for most situations and the difference in tire size an inconsequential issue considering the other differences. (this last bit taken from ADVRider + f800riders.org)

many, not all, 650 TWINS were owned by careful lady drivers (flame-suit ON!  :komet: ), and can be had for not a lot of money....meaning they sell 2nd hand at an even-bigger discount than it 'should'...

a 650 TWIN would get to the start easily (less vibey than a thumper...), and then it could easily do the course, if it is indeed do-able, with experience, on say a 1200 behemoth (I'm still wearing that flame-suit...!)

then the 650 TWIN has a much lower stand-over height than many 'hardcore' dual sport bikes, easier to flat-foot/man-handle through challenging areas...

needs a good bash plate, of course.

RWU forks? no real issue, it's still suspension, after all, maybe slap in progressive springs?
a good number of people do round-the-world (remote) trips with RWU forks, no problemo....!

Fuel: easily sorted; disclaimer, we SELL a plug & play 7L after-market REAR tank, no drilling necessary, hook it up and ride! But a 5L fuel bladder could go a long way to increasing range, too...

tubeless tyres? I like, about 90% less time in regular puncture repairs...

tubeless rims? I do not like so much, but with a bit more aggressive tyre, and being 'looked after' within reason, they will likely survive.

Back-up vehicle maybe to carry a spare front and rear WHEEL, with tyres mounted?  These can be had inexpensively, too.

Then if two (or four) team-members all used the SAME bike, then just one set of wheels for absolute emergency, and common spares across both (or all 4) bikes!
Oh, and of course, a big box of rear-wheel bearings!  ;) Oh, and tighten the radiator-hose clamps!  ;D

with the 650 TWIN, you can change the fuel mapping, but not the cams, meaning the 650 can be reprogrammed to get back some of it's 'lost' power, but not all of it...
...and underrated little bike!  :thumleft:

Flame on!  :komet:
Chris
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: (11-16 Jun '17) - NOT TO HAPPEN
Post by: Camelman on December 07, 2016, 09:15:38 pm
So the time has come to make a decision:

Although not every single Adventure or Rallye rider had voted, I like to use the Wilddog forum as a sample of the Adventure/ Racing public. Also why I did not post on 'Planning a Ride' If you never even read the Racing Thread, then I'm trying to tap blood from a stone.

From a historic perspective (and yes I have done this before on this here forum) this sample will work out as follows in reality. Some external factors may change it, like massive sponsorship or a Marketing Drive of epic proportions. But after being on TV for 3 times, and featuring every year in most of the bike magazines since 2012, I still hear from guys saying 'I have never even heard of the Amageza Rallye'. If you don't read, watch motorsport or News, I can't reach you. Even posters seemed not to have worked.

I regress...

So, of a sample of 46 votes which make up our 100%, this is the result, and what will happen if entries were to open for the Livingstone Cup, and how it will effect the entry fee.


To recce, layout, pay for land, get permissions, pay for park fees, overland fee's, government levies, sporting levies, vehicle costs, maintenance costs, etc, etc cost approximately R 100 per kilometer. That's excluding overhead costs like office, admin, phones, salaries, etc. So with our brave sum of 38 entries who have to now pay for this exercise, the entry fee will be in the region of R26 315. And we have no prize money.

And that my friends is why there will likely be no Livingstone Cup, nor a 2017 Amageza Rally. Because if I open entries and take your money, I have to give you a product. And if so few riders enter, I have to take the  loss. And I have no more money to loose. Its been a tough 6 years.

Then off-course one has the added stress of serious injury to a rider. I felt devastated after I heard about the rider fatality on the ROA. I felt sorry for the rider and family, but I felt even more compassion for the organization. Even though the general thought is that organizers roll around in money, that is not the fact. Many suffer a great deal of personal financial hardship to bring something to the riders, and do not plan for it to go so horribly wrong. But no one can do EVERYTHING. You have to rely on other people, and if they slip up, you take the blame. Reading the complaints against ROA on the social media, it brought back vivid memories of the 2015 Amageza Rallye and how devastated and helpless I felt after the issues we had. Then three months later I was crucified on social networks for being late for prize-giving after I flew 10 hours that day finding lost riders and organizing their recovery. Even leading some back from the air. Then having to endure a screaming match after some riders went around the wrong way on the GPS route. So no, being a race director or organizer is not worth it financially or otherwise. You get your reward from the rider that comes to you afterward with a big smile and a outstretched hand, thanking you for a awesome ride. That's what you live on. And that is one of the reasons why I may be bowing out gracefully.

So if you still want to do a rally by Amageza Racing, you best enter the 2017 West Coast Baja. Seems it may be my last!!  :-\

On the bright side: I doubt this will be the end of cross-country rally. I'm sure someone will pop up somewhere with a race. Then I might  be lining up next to you grinning like a mad dog... :ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 07, 2016, 11:29:15 pm
I must say I have a lot of respect and appreciation for what you have already brought  to the cross country racing scene in South Africa, even if to date I have only been able to partake online. I am sad though that I might not get to race a baja or amageza. When you don't come from the financial means to get into racing you have to be patient and work towards that goal of one day lining up yourself. I am scheming to buy a bike again and maybe get to race soon.

I understand the immense challenges you must face to organize large events and I sincerely hope you are able to continue doing so, or that someone will step up to the plate and carry the rally scene forward.

In this thread I think you have planted a really cool idea and maybe a wilddog can take it further or we can even arrange a informal wilddog rally, like the "collect places of interest"  idea mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Firesquirrel on December 08, 2016, 01:43:13 am
Sounds interesting... will keep an eye to see how it rolls out !
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 08, 2016, 07:41:17 am
Well, I understand, sadly. The Amageza and the WCB are probably beyond my capability, being a 47yo that has never raced before, so the Livingstone would have been a good gauge for me personally. The entry at R15K was a lot of money (personally not having had an income since Feb 2016), but I could/can still make a plan on that.

Respect for making the decision based on hard facts, and I wish that there was more money and work floating around SA, that would have made the difference imo. However I am optimistic about business, manufacture in particular, in SA, the results will be money in pocket and i hope for an opportunity to do a race like this before too long!

I am pretty sure you will be back....  :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Rebelwithacause on December 08, 2016, 07:58:03 am
Ahh Awe, Camelman! Thanks for taking a stab at this anyway! Was super amped for this, but understand the realities you are talking about! What you have done was already a big step to actually getting something like this going, without the first step you will never make it! Maybe later.

 :thumleft:

I like what Kortbroek said, maybe we can do something like that.

 :ricky: :ricky: :ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Cdp13 on December 08, 2016, 04:28:41 pm
Awesome idea. Sad to hear it's not happening.

We met Alex in Riemvasmaak, he was marking tracks and recce work. It is not easy ladies and gents.

I for one am very sad coz these past 3/4 years I've been saying "one day, one day I will ride Amageza". But alas, respect to you Alex, and I'll see you in Port in March.

Cheers
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: BlueBull2007 on December 12, 2016, 09:01:14 am
Ai Alexander, its been a tough road for you but I am so grateful for all you have done for rally raid in RSA. :hello2: :hello2: :hello2: :hello2: :hello2:

I will continue to hope that you do well from the Baja and perhaps, just maybe you might give it another bash after the success of this years Amageza and 2017 Baja.

Financially its been a battle, just a pity the naysayers did not cut you any slack and give you a chance.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 12, 2016, 09:32:29 am
I broke a tooth on my F800GS rear sprocket, so I'm using my 690 for commuting.  It almost never gets ridden outside of Amageza or set-up tests for the rallies.  I just think it will be huge pity not to be able to stretch its legs again in an environment it was so perfectly suited for.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Cdp13 on December 12, 2016, 09:40:59 am
I broke a tooth on my F800GS rear sprocket, so I'm using my 690 for commuting.  It almost never gets ridden outside of Amageza or set-up tests for the rallies.  I just think it will be huge pity not to be able to stretch its legs again in an environment it was so perfectly suited for.

Meerkat jy op die 690?? Of slegs op die 800...
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Orangeswifty on December 12, 2016, 11:02:50 am
It really would be a sorry sight to see the end of the Amageza.
I think it was growing nicely in stature and legend
But Allas..............what Alex says is true..........too little competitors do not bake the cake.
Today's challenging economic environment in SA surely makes it difficult to really commit to spending the money necessary to compete in this awesome environment.
Having done the 2012 Amageza, it was a dream of mine to do another.
Especially because the routes and riding terrain seemed so impressive in the 2015 and 2016 events.
I think Alex gained a lot of valuable knowledge in the process and his contacts and organisational skills can not be bought.
Me thinks it would be a good idea for anyone who wants to restart the project or similar event to employ him to do just that going forward.

All the best going forward Alex..........you gave it a good shot!

Swifty
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 12, 2016, 01:55:22 pm
aah sucks. I only saw this thread now.
Amageza is too challenging and expensive for me, so I thought this will finally be something I can do. Something a big bike can actually do with minimal modifications.

On a side note, why not also advertise these events on the facebook groups? Tere is many thousands of riders, many which are very good riders but have not even heard of Wilddogs.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Buff on December 12, 2016, 02:15:40 pm
As much as I read about these events and get terribly excited about them and froth at the bum at the prospect of riding them all, there’s only so much a salaried man with a young family and a limited amount of leave can achieve in one year  :(

Good luck with your plans going forward Alex, I hope I see you at the start line of the Tankwa Rally in Sept so you can also enjoy some good racing for a change  :thumleft: :ricky:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: JonW on December 12, 2016, 02:49:37 pm
Alex don't be put off by the lack of response from WildDog members, as said above, there are thousands of riders out there who might be interested in your adventure race who aren't members of WildDogs and who haven't heard about your plans.

I would advertise on as many mediums as possible before I decide that the poor response is not worth carrying on with your ideas.

As an example, for the past 2 years I have helped put together an annual off-road and dual sport ride called the Bundu Bash. I put a lot of effort into finding new routes and tracks, but the response from WildDog members is non-existant. Not one WildDog member last year and no interest so far this year. We still had over 50 bikes last year and expect even more this year, so I am more than happy with the numbers

 Keep the dream Alex, there are lots of riders out there who would love to do your ride.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 12, 2016, 02:52:42 pm
Alex don't be put off by the lack of response from WildDog members, as said above, there are thousands of riders out there who might be interested in your adventure race who aren't members of WildDogs and who haven't heard about your plans.

I would advertise on as many mediums as possible before I decide that the poor response is not worth carrying on with your ideas.

As an example, for the past 2 years I have helped put together an annual off-road and dual sport ride called the Bundu Bash. I put a lot of effort into finding new routes and tracks, but the response from WildDog members is non-existant. Not one WildDog member last year and no interest so far this year. We still had over 50 bikes last year and expect even more this year, so I am more than happy with the numbers

 Keep the dream Alex, there are lots of riders out there who would love to do your ride.

Link to some more info please? Sounds interesting
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Offroad2 on December 12, 2016, 04:22:47 pm
As much as I read about these events and get terribly excited about them and froth at the bum at the prospect of riding them all, there’s only so much a salaried man with a young family and a limited amount of leave can achieve in one year  :(

Good luck with your plans going forward Alex, I hope I see you at the start line of the Tankwa Rally in Sept so you can also enjoy some good racing for a change  :thumleft: :ricky:

Now there is a plan Alex come ride Tankwa in Sept - you have ridden with us before, you are always welcome.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on December 12, 2016, 04:53:10 pm
Ok, I thought I might view it from 'the other side'.

It is not only about the money, it's not only about the exposure, it's not only about the dream, it is about MUCH MUCH MORE.

Just imagine Johnny Racer had an off and hurt his ankle around 3:50pm.  He can't stand on the foot,  They leading and (there are R200 000.00 prize money at stake) decide to help him to get going as the track is open and manageable without the use of his right foot. After a few minutes the track became more difficult and he has another oopsie and he instinctively put his foot down. GWHARR, now he cant even move his foot. Reality set in and his mates press the 'Send the helicopter' button.  'We are on our way' and the chopper 'race' to the front end to pick Johnny up.  Few minutes later Pietie Slowgo brake for a cow and his teammate ram him from behind.  Both riders down. Bla Bla bla. Press the "I'm in pain, come help me button".  The only chopper is now heading the other direction,  Nearest help is 120km (rocky tweespoor) away, it is 4:20pm.

In my books this is where I draw the line w.r.t risk, responsibility, etc etc.  None of the riders above were in any life threatening position, but mark my words, the org will never hear the end from the friends and family of whomever was not 'rescued' immediately. He paid and WANT attention, whether he NEED it or not. Just look at the social media after the Roof incident.

To sum it all up.  MONEY IS NOT THE direct ISSUE, there are much more that 'forced' Alexander to re-think.  I did not dream this up, just go and read his post again.
If you look at the logistics and support at the other rallies there are mostly TWO helicopters and 'a few' ambulances.  I think the target is to reach anyone within 30 minutes???

I am disappointed about this as full on adventure is close to my heart, but reality is not on Discovery channel, 80% of that is fake (except Jourcy Shores).

So with that off my mind I think we need to put this to rest and not try and 'force' Alexander to re-consider hie decision.  When time is right it will happen again.

Just my 5 c

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: boland on December 12, 2016, 05:43:10 pm
It might be off-topic so sorry for that. I think the main thing  is that we would like to race our dual sport bike without much modification necessary. Another very important factor like Buff mentioned for many is money and time.

While spectating the Toyota dealer Rally earlier this year I thought how great it would be to have a rally like this for adventure bikes. Almost like the offroad races held for plastics, but instead of doing laps of the same 30 km stage you can have 5 - 10 different "stages" like a rally. The route should be marked so no roadbook/gps is necessary and it all can be done over a weekend. It also doesn't need to be in the bundus necessarily.

I know absolutely nothing, just thought something like this could be fun.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 12, 2016, 08:18:34 pm
I broke a tooth on my F800GS rear sprocket, so I'm using my 690 for commuting.  It almost never gets ridden outside of Amageza or set-up tests for the rallies.  I just think it will be huge pity not to be able to stretch its legs again in an environment it was so perfectly suited for.

Meerkat jy op die 690?? Of slegs op die 800...

My bikes het almal seats.  Hulle so gekoop.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 12, 2016, 11:40:23 pm
It might be off-topic so sorry for that. I think the main thing  is that we would like to race our dual sport bike without much modification necessary. Another very important factor like Buff mentioned for many is money and time.

While spectating the Toyota dealer Rally earlier this year I thought how great it would be to have a rally like this for adventure bikes. Almost like the offroad races held for plastics, but instead of doing laps of the same 30 km stage you can have 5 - 10 different "stages" like a rally. The route should be marked so no roadbook/gps is necessary and it all can be done over a weekend. It also doesn't need to be in the bundus necessarily.

I know absolutely nothing, just thought something like this could be fun.

+1 
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 13, 2016, 08:10:09 am
It might be off-topic so sorry for that. I think the main thing  is that we would like to race our dual sport bike without much modification necessary. Another very important factor like Buff mentioned for many is money and time.

While spectating the Toyota dealer Rally earlier this year I thought how great it would be to have a rally like this for adventure bikes. Almost like the offroad races held for plastics, but instead of doing laps of the same 30 km stage you can have 5 - 10 different "stages" like a rally. The route should be marked so no roadbook/gps is necessary and it all can be done over a weekend. It also doesn't need to be in the bundus necessarily.

I know absolutely nothing, just thought something like this could be fun.

+1 

Agreed. cheaper, there is no choppers necessary maybe one or two ambulances, well laid out routes not a navigational challenge but an endurance riding challenge.
I have done an iron butt on gravel (1600km in 24hr) and would love something like this where there is a lot of bikes on the same route.
And if a 450 can do the route faster or better than a 1200 then the route was laid out wrong, it needs to be long yet challenging/engaging.

As a side note, not exactly applicable, but still, the GStrophy and the NDBA dont have choppers and 10 ambulances but also cater for a lot of riders. I would like something like this tweaked, to include tough terrain and hard endurance riding, sleeping at a different spot every night sommer next to the road. An event that is not over-organised as that increase costs. If the costs increase you start to attract more and more professional and supported riders, which would make it less attractive for me, I have a day job and a family and cant compete with that.

Basically, we must start a thread, discuss and arrange a route, a start time, add some incentives like routes not normally accessible to the public, organise a few backup vehicles with trailers, and do it.
Check the Australian KTM rally/get together thing, that also looks epic. (think also Australian GS trophy something)
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 13, 2016, 08:29:38 am
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on December 13, 2016, 08:39:40 am

Basically, we must start a thread, discuss and arrange a route, a start time, add some incentives like routes not normally accessible to the public, organise a few backup vehicles with trailers, and do it.


Thats why I mentioned earlier: We must 'buy' the route from Alexander and put something together.

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on December 13, 2016, 09:01:35 am
Thanks for the comments guys.

Looks like I will have some down-time in July and August in the new venture I'm entering. This means there is time for one more event other than the Baja.

Most of the problems has been addressed in the comments. But can be summarized as follows:

Cost to recce and 'build' the road-book. We don't to sticker, nor GPS tracks. this means  we have to physically ride the route by bike or 4x4 to write the road-book. Bike is faster bur less accurate as I too have to first survive the obstacle to be able to write about it. This means that I will first jump a hole, then mark it on the GPS. Not every ditch is seen as note-worthy when I'm on a bike, hence the less detailed road-book. With the Jeep it is 2/3 slower, but we can stop before the hole, and mark it. One also notices more detail at 15 km/h than 45 km/h. (Reccing with the Jeep is just about 1/3 the speed I normally do on the bike) So, to write a 700 km road-book takes 700/15 = 46 hours. That is if the terrain is known to me. If not, it can take 3 or four times that. That is why the routes were so good in 2016, I could fly them before driving them. This costs money, lots of it. To the sum of about R100-R250/km depending of the terrain and my & John's knowledge.

A MSA event requires a minimum number of ambulances and medics. For any Amageza-style event, ie: Cross-Country we require 1x ALS, 2 x ILS and 2 x BLS medics that is (Advanced Live Support, Intermediate Life Support, Basic Life Support). Then we require 2 ambulances and a response vehicle. This is a very expensive exercise. A helicopter is optional, but we either have one if we can afford it, or we have one on standby in close proximity. The latter comes in the form of favors from friends.

We require at least 25-30 volunteer personal who gets a meager allowance as marshals, and some well paid officials. But this is still in the 5 figures.

Then we need vehicles. Most of these are hired. Only my Jeep and the Sweep are not hired. We hire vehicles to ensure they are mechanically sound before we start the race. If a vehicle should break down during the race, we are screwed. This costs 6 figures.

Then there are fee's to MSA, government, tourism and local communities. You cannot have a event without MSA. With MSA involved you get third-party liability for riders and organization as well as medical cover for every competitor and marshal.

If we have 30 or 100 competitors, the basic requirement stays the same, and so do the costs. I calculate the entry fee as costs/ number of entries + JIC factor of 10-15% depending on what Zuma may or my not say.

If only 46 riders enter, then only 50% of the costs has been paid for. In stead of cancelling the event, I normally pay the shortfall myself. This has come at a terrible price to my wife and I, and we just cannot afford it any longer.

We cannot plan and stage a event longer than 2 days part time. Its a full time job. Neither can I take deposits and wait till we reach 60-70 entries before I start the route and relevant planning. It takes just about a month a stage day to plan, get the required permissions and write the road-book. So for a 5 day race I need 7 months. (The application to have a race on partial public road takes 3 months. They require the full route with the application.)

Hence the need for sponsorship. To my mind sponsorship has two purposes:

But a sponsor wants coverage. Print, and preferably TV.

Decent coverage, requires decent footage. A good photographer, like the guys from Oakpics has a cost to company of R12 000 - R15 000 per day. Film cost about the same, but you have additional editing costs. Their transport around the race is quite expensive unless you have a great volunteer like Jacques from Upington who transported Lie-Ann around the race route this year.

It's not that I have given up, its just that I have run out of savings to cover any shortfall in entries for 2017.

So the Livingston and Amageza has to wait for a sponsor or my piggy-bank to recover before I can initiate another event. Only the West Coast Baja is safe for now.  :ricky:


Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Sláinte Mhaith on December 13, 2016, 09:19:28 am
.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on December 13, 2016, 09:31:59 am

Basically, we must start a thread, discuss and arrange a route, a start time, add some incentives like routes not normally accessible to the public, organise a few backup vehicles with trailers, and do it.


Thats why I mentioned earlier: We must 'buy' the route from Alexander and put something together.

Adie

Please be carefull.  ;) You either do it the correct way, or don't do it.

Try and think of your own 'style' of event. You only have 50% of the required info I have told you about the Livingstone Cup.

This sport cannot afford another Booker Effect. Please take care. Your order of importance should always be:

That's just some of the items to tick off before a race. Safe-guard yourself, the competitor and the land-owner or government, and you will always be welcome.

Cross-Country racing is not a race of three laps around a farm or two. To me the latter is about as much fun as doing knitting. I want to see NEW HORIZON! I don't want to see the same route twice in one day!

It's easy to say, lets plan a race. But the moment you take money from a competitor a number of laws kick in. Make sure you know them, and you are adequately prepared.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: BlueBull2007 on December 13, 2016, 09:47:30 am
Well said Alexander. :thumleft:

Maybe if I can find a profitable mine you will have a sponsor...but that is about as hard and time consuming as organizing a rally! :imaposer:


Whatever happens, we DEFINITELY cannot afford to have another GEORGE BOOKER disaster. It seriously ruined rally raid in the Tankwa for everyone else since then. (George, if you're reading this you still owe a lot of people a lot of money! :deal: )
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Weedkiller - Adie on December 13, 2016, 09:51:03 am
The Idea of 'buying' the route was more aimed at 'a group of friends' adventure. NOT A RACE or EVENT.  Maybe just a 4x4 and trailer as backup.

Adie
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 13, 2016, 09:57:31 am
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 13, 2016, 10:22:58 am
Thanks for the detailed answer Alexander. Its good to know all the risks and legal compliances and and.

Its also frustrating, from my side Ijust want to have a few hard days in the saddle, be challenged and see a bit of our beautiful country without having to spend r50k for what is essentially a week of fun.

There is no 'novice event' option? That means no official racing or special permits or motorsport.

Ai, one can only dream
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Orangeswifty on December 13, 2016, 11:21:08 am
2011 and 2012 were the first inaugural races/rides of the Amageza without MSA approval.
After those races one of the general bitching points were that MSA were not involved and that there were no spectator points or 'real' medical support.
in 2012 the format was more centred on dual sport bikes and there were lots of KLR's and XR 650's, yammy 660's, some 950's and 990's and even a 1200 GS........ridden by a woman nogal :thumleft:
The 2013 and 2014 Amagezas were the first ones where MSA were involved and Alex started doing a lot more work on more difficult routes, getting the road books right etc......
It did how ever cause a migration from bigger bikes down to the 450, 500 and 690 sizes.

I think this event would have sparked the interest again for big DS bikes
There are a lot of guys who ride 1200 adv size scooters that would like to partake in such an event.
specifically if its more dual sport orientated with less attention to navigation and more to time management.

It can work but the right sector of bikers has to be reached

Note: there are probably 3 or 4 times as many BMW 1200 adventure riders out there than all the others manufacturers combined.
All of them gets sold those bikes by BMW with a picture of Rambo with a knife between his teeth ingrained in their brains.
He wants to be a tiger with muscles who can prove his worth off road with his new acquisition.
Maybe give him the vehicle to become one with this idea............... :biggrin:.
Wont it be feasible for BMW dealerships and /or training centres like ADA to get involved?
This needs a lot more thought and marketing than a small survey on Wilddogs
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 13, 2016, 11:56:54 am
So in the light of this thread and drawing inspiration from it I am hatching a plan. We can sit by and lament the fact that organisers like Camelman can't always be expected to look after our racing needs, or we can do something. Myself and Rebelwithacause here on the forum have been hatching a plan. Watch this space.

Imagine an unsupported, find your own route adventure rally where reaching the checkpoints first or in time won't necessarily make you the winner. Your ability to regale us of your tales of adventures enroute might though.

Just working out a few things, should be able to make an announcement in the next week or two.  :ricky:  :ricky:

I'll start a new thread as soon as I'm ready (I'll post a link here if you don't mind Camelman)
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: bud500 on December 13, 2016, 12:03:15 pm
So in the light of this thread and drawing inspiration from it I am hatching a plan. We can sit by and lament the fact that organisers like Camelman can't always be expected to look after our racing needs, or we can do something. Myself and Rebelwithacause here on the forum have been hatching a plan. Watch this space.

Imagine an unsupported, find your own route adventure rally where reaching the checkpoints first or in time won't necessarily make you the winner. Your ability to regale us of your tales of adventures enroute might though.

Just working out a few things, should be able to make an announcement in the next week or two.  :ricky:  :ricky:

I'll start a new thread as soon as I'm ready (I'll post a link here if you don't mind Camelman)

Makes me think of something like www.putfootrally.com.
Any Car, Any Route! 5 Countries, 5 Checkpoints, 5 Parties across 8000km in 18 Days.
But just for bikes.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Xpat on December 13, 2016, 12:04:02 pm
@Camelman: Hat off to you sir, for pulling this off and keeping it up for so long! I was always wondering how an event of this scale (Amageza) can survive on such a low admission fee - I see now it was through your own personal financial loss.

@m0lt3n: Martin, no offence intended at all, but why you need somebody to organize basically a week long trip for you? Is it the social aspect you are looking for?

Why don't you just have a look at the googlemaps (they are amazingly detailed now and with satellite images you can plot tons of off the beaten track riding - all of it on public land), plot nice route and just go? I do it 2 - 3 times a year - sometimes deciding literally night before, no problem. And I dare to say my routes are not that far off what Amageza routes were about - I have actually ridden (unknowingly at the time of course) parts of the Botswana route on my own on heavy bike (Tenere) with tons of luggage half a year before the rally. Of course what they did in a day I did in two or three - if you want to push yourself try to do it in one day  :). If you need a company, organize a mate or two and get Spot or Satellite for back-up - and Bob's your auntie.

You are in Northern Cape - i.e. not far from Botswana (where you can go bonkers if you do your homework as most of the land is public), southern Namibia. Heck, even in SA side - did you do Namaqua 4x4? That should challenge you all right - especially on that hippo of yours  :peepwall: :ricky: If you want, I can plot a route for you (still waiting for my leg to mend - how is yours?) easily within day or two - and I haven't even been to the are properly yet.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Kortbroek on December 13, 2016, 12:08:19 pm
So in the light of this thread and drawing inspiration from it I am hatching a plan. We can sit by and lament the fact that organisers like Camelman can't always be expected to look after our racing needs, or we can do something. Myself and Rebelwithacause here on the forum have been hatching a plan. Watch this space.

Imagine an unsupported, find your own route adventure rally where reaching the checkpoints first or in time won't necessarily make you the winner. Your ability to regale us of your tales of adventures enroute might though.

Just working out a few things, should be able to make an announcement in the next week or two.  :ricky:  :ricky:

I'll start a new thread as soon as I'm ready (I'll post a link here if you don't mind Camelman)

Makes me think of something like www.putfootrally.com.
Any Car, Any Route! 5 Countries, 5 Checkpoints, 5 Parties across 8000km in 18 Days.
But just for bikes.

Something along those lines yes although not quite the same. I think we have a good basic idea, just threshing out a few details.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 13, 2016, 01:11:07 pm
@Camelman: Hat off to you sir, for pulling this off and keeping it up for so long! I was always wondering how an event of this scale (Amageza) can survive on such a low admission fee - I see now it was through your own personal financial loss.

@m0lt3n: Martin, no offence intended at all, but why you need somebody to organize basically a week long trip for you? Is it the social aspect you are looking for?

Why don't you just have a look at the googlemaps (they are amazingly detailed now and with satellite images you can plot tons of off the beaten track riding - all of it on public land), plot nice route and just go? I do it 2 - 3 times a year - sometimes deciding literally night before, no problem. And I dare to say my routes are not that far off what Amageza routes were about - I have actually ridden (unknowingly at the time of course) parts of the Botswana route on my own on heavy bike (Tenere) with tons of luggage half a year before the rally. Of course what they did in a day I did in two or three - if you want to push yourself try to do it in one day  :). If you need a company, organize a mate or two and get Spot or Satellite for back-up - and Bob's your auntie.

You are in Northern Cape - i.e. not far from Botswana (where you can go bonkers if you do your homework as most of the land is public), southern Namibia. Heck, even in SA side - did you do Namaqua 4x4? That should challenge you all right - especially on that hippo of yours  :peepwall: :ricky: If you want, I can plot a route for you (still waiting for my leg to mend - how is yours?) easily within day or two - and I haven't even been to the are properly yet.

None taken.
I get you, and know I was open for that assumption.
I have limited time to plan, but know thats not an excuse. I would only be able to maybe round up 5 to 10 bikes for something like this. That will be just another out ride or trip, but imagine the spirit if there is 50 big bikes doing a trip with you. That will be epic. All staggered over the same route with the same challenge but you only see each other now and again.
Plus my knowledge will be limited, a trip will be what my boring imagination can dream up out of my limited experience. Also I wont just out of my own free will take a map, make 5 random dots where there seems to be nothing and go for it, I would like some persuasion...maybe I am to much of a follower and would rather have someone else do it.
My friends would also not sign up for 4000km in 4 days of gravel on a route designed by little me.

No I have not done the Namaqua 4x4. Just read up on it and it seems to be a must, I will have to get to it! (Doesnt look to technical, but then...the 4x4 guys wont be bothered by sand as much as I will be). It could also be added to this event, 630km which shouldnt be to difficult to arrange.

(I think you have enough experience to design a 4 or 5000km semi challenging route easily for us!!!!)

My leg is okayish, I will be taking my hippo out (hopefully) for the first time this weekend for some dust. I still wobble like a penguin though, but off topic....I will go update the other thread.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Bill the Bong on December 13, 2016, 01:12:46 pm
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...

True, but the GS Trophy and the Rallye Raid - http://www.rallyeraid.co.za/ - caters for you...
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 13, 2016, 01:20:46 pm
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...

True, but the GS Trophy and the Rallye Raid - http://www.rallyeraid.co.za/ - caters for you...

This copied from the Rallyeraid site is why I would have to disagree with you, it may be technical challenges, but your ass, your eyes, or your back is never going to feel challenged.

"Package include:
- 3 nights hotel accomodation at The Haven Hotel;
- 3 meals per day including lunch at new hotels on both riding days"
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Xpat on December 13, 2016, 03:13:17 pm

None taken.
I get you, and know I was open for that assumption.
I have limited time to plan, but know thats not an excuse. I would only be able to maybe round up 5 to 10 bikes for something like this. That will be just another out ride or trip, but imagine the spirit if there is 50 big bikes doing a trip with you. That will be epic. All staggered over the same route with the same challenge but you only see each other now and again.
...

Hmmm, you see that right there (the bold bit) is where we differ fundamentally. For me riding off the beaten track is about getting away from the bustle and hustle of Rivonia Road, getting in the flow with the surrounds  - just me and max 1 or 2 mates.

The image of 50 bikes (especially the big ones that are just crap in the sand) ripping across  let's say Makgadikgadi, or heavens forbid attempting the cutlines along Okavango (leaving aside that almost nobody on a big bike has reasonable chance there) is just disgusting to me. Inevitably most of them will be just followers riding in the dust trail before them without any comprehension of where they are and where they are going. No different from package tourists looking for pre-chewed instant adventure - I think it is almost safe bet that regular coffee breaks will be required no matter what. And good luck if something horrible (like no hot shower in the evening, leave alone injury or broken bike on the pans) happens there - you will have an angry pack on your hands very quickly.

And the chances are that after one or two such a shindigs the areas will be closed to the bikers for ever by authorities due to disruption to environment and wildlife - let's face with 50 mostly males in the place, there will be always idiots pushing the boundaries at every opportunity (the same ones that will cry loudest should something go wrong).

In Amageza, each rider rode (I'm guessing here) as and individual aware of the risks, being able to navigate and being able to sleep out in the sticks should situation require it. I'm not saying they may not help each other, but they went there with the right mind set - self-sufficiency.

It seems to me (and I know I'm harsh here) that what you are looking for will turn into a herd of followers ((I'm not referring to you now) following few leaders, getting maimed in the process and - most importantly for me - disrupting areas that may be turned off the limit to bikes as a result. I can guarantee you that as soon as the riding gets too tough for them (or are you going to preselect them?) the tempers will fly high very quickly, potentially screwing up everybody's ride. There was a report here recently I think from Zanie about ride through Southern Namibia, where the leader took the group through D707 (absolute must as far as I'm concerned and - and I'm average rider at best - challenging but doable on big bike), which turned out to be a bit sandy and he had a riot on his hands.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Offroad2 on December 13, 2016, 04:14:40 pm
Well said Alexander. :thumleft:

Maybe if I can find a profitable mine you will have a sponsor...but that is about as hard and time consuming as organizing a rally! :imaposer:


Whatever happens, we DEFINITELY cannot afford to have another GEORGE BOOKER disaster. It seriously ruined rally raid in the Tankwa for everyone else since then. (George, if you're reading this you still owe a lot of people a lot of money! :deal: )

BB a small correction I think you meant Namakwa rather than Tankwa

Alex is a 100% correct, most will not know the red tape with authorities, you may even have a gathering without a permit, however Landowners are key and it takes time to win their approval. Agreed it must be done properly or not.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: J-dog on December 13, 2016, 04:27:08 pm
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...

True, but the GS Trophy and the Rallye Raid - http://www.rallyeraid.co.za/ - caters for you...

what he said. Rallyraid is exactly what peeps want. And it's also every year  :thumleft:
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: m0lt3n on December 13, 2016, 05:13:28 pm
Xpat
I get what you are saying but I dont feel its applicable.
Your description of Amageza...now why cant the big bikes have an event like that, but for them. Something challenging that wont cost an additional R100k to prep your bike, get satelite phone and stuff?
I know there is idiots that will complain at any and all things, but I do have some friends, on big bikes, that would love to ride hard all day and do an event Malle moto style, but are not prepared to go get and kit a plastic for such a once off adventure.

Damn man,  there is this whole picture you have or portray of hippo owners, but if someone actually do want to ride the shit out of his hippo thats also shot down
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Xpat on December 13, 2016, 06:08:01 pm
We are probably off-topic by now, so allow me just one last reply:

I'm not shooting down anything - as a matter of fact I have suggested what I thought was a perfect alternative from a cost and maximum ride enjoyment POV: plot a route off the beaten track (there is plenty of inspiration in RRs on WD), pack up and go. The route may not end up being as scenic as you expected, or you might run into too tough patch of sand (any of which may happen on organized ride anyway as people's skill differ), but that is part of adv riding for me. No need to buy plastic bike if you prefer it that way - of course big bike may be more limiting in some areas, but then some people consider that as an extra challenge and actually enjoy that - I have ridden 1000s of kms of deep sand on GSA1150 myself though nowadays prefer smaller bike. And little more detail planning can mitigate (not entirely eliminate) risk of running into too tough a terrain.

I just don't understand why it needs to be a an organized event, but that is probably only because I'm wired solo and to be perfectly honest a bit snobbish. If this is going to be an event accessible to anybody (i.e. without pre-selection ala Amageza and clear racing designation), it seems inevitable to me that the event organizer needs to cater for the lowest common denominator, with proper back-ups to get people untangled if they get too deep in for their comfort, or the route must be compromised to ensure that more or less anybody on big bike can ride it. The challenging route with sufficient back-up will inevitably drive costs up (still cheaper probably than Amageza as Camleman hinted), and I have a gist that you and your mates may not enjoy the ride if the route is too easy.

But no, I'm definitely not trying to dissuade you from riding your bike whatever it is. Exact opposite, I'm trying to encourage people to ride whether there is an organized event or not.
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: ClimbingTurtle on December 14, 2016, 07:53:27 am
Seems to me that an organised, paid for ride to wherever, with some tough bits and cold showers, is what is required......

And I seem to think WildWood pretty much does this - albeit on 701's, perhaps he would modify some "tours" for me and my GSA Lump.....?

 ::)  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
Post by: Camelman on December 14, 2016, 12:08:49 pm
It is really encouraging to see you guys debate the issue.

That is why I like to start a event off here. Amageza also started here. As you debate, so I plan.

I do generally have the ability to make things happen, but I just can't afford another financial knock. So I would REALLY REALLY like to plan and execute The Livingstone Cup, just to show that it can be done, but eish, the moela man!

So keep it up, you never know what may happen!!  :thumleft:

And keep riding and training with your hog in sand and rock. If the Livingstone happens, it won't be easy.  >:D