Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Riding: Plan, Report and Racing => Racing Section => Topic started by: TheBear on January 15, 2018, 01:42:08 pm

Title: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 15, 2018, 01:42:08 pm
Speeds in km/h, all attained on Mugello.

1999:  Biaggi, Yamaha, 500cc:  318.6
2000:  McCoy, Yamaha, 500cc: 317.8
2001:  Rossi, Honda, 500cc: 315.6
2002:  Ukawa, Honda, 990cc: 324.5
2003:  Capirossi, Ducati, 990cc: 332.4
2004:  Barros, Honda, 990cc:  343.0
2005:  Checa, Ducati, 990cc: 340.5
2006:  Stoner, Honda, 990cc: 334.0
2007:  Stoner, Ducati, 800cc:  323.3
2008:  Melandri, Ducati, 800cc: 330.8
2009:  Pedrosa, Honda, 800cc:  349.3
2010:  Barbera, Ducati, 800cc: 345.7
2011:  Barbera, Ducati, 800cc: 335.7
2012:  Rossi, Ducati, 1000cc:  346.9
2013:  Iannone, Ducati, 1000cc, 344.6
2014:  Iannone, Ducati, 1000cc: 349.6
2015:  Iannone, Ducati, 1000cc:  350.8
2016:  Iannone, Ducati, 1000cc:  354.9
2017:  Pirro, Ducati, 1000cc:  354.7


Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 15, 2018, 02:35:06 pm
Slow 2-strokes pffft
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Epilot on January 15, 2018, 05:33:32 pm
Very interesting, any chance of posting the lap times.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 15, 2018, 08:54:23 pm
Slow 2-strokes pffft

 :imaposer: Well, considering that the 2strokes is exactly half the capacity, the 4strokes actually look decidedly lame. :ricky:
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Sheepman on January 15, 2018, 09:02:07 pm
Slow 2-strokes pffft

 :imaposer: Well, considering that the 2strokes is exactly half the capacity, the 4strokes actually look decidedly lame. :ricky:

Agree  :thumleft: Smokers were hot  ;)
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: OomD on January 15, 2018, 10:43:12 pm
Slow 2-strokes pffft

 :imaposer: Well, considering that the 2strokes is exactly half the capacity, the 4strokes actually look decidedly lame. :ricky:
Hmmm, given a two stroke of half the capacity, but twice the combustion cycles, evens it out doesn't it?
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Kamanya on January 15, 2018, 10:53:07 pm
What’s just about as impressive is that Rossi is on that list 11 years apart!
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Sheepman on January 15, 2018, 10:55:43 pm
Slow 2-strokes pffft

 :imaposer: Well, considering that the 2strokes is exactly half the capacity, the 4strokes actually look decidedly lame. :ricky:
Hmmm, given a two stroke of half the capacity, but twice the combustion cycles, evens it out doesn't it?

Not really - the double combustion doesnt relate to double the hp
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Rough Rider on January 16, 2018, 09:13:52 am
Interesting how fast the 800's were.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 16, 2018, 09:38:42 am
Very interesting, any chance of posting the lap times.

I could try and find that, but which lap times do we use?  Pole qualifying lap could work.

I did read an article on this a while back and those 500cc smokers were surprisingly slow on laptimes compared to the modern bikes.  They didn't have the brakes, suspensions and tyres.

POLE TIMES:

1999, Harada, Aprilia, 500cc: 1’52.454
2000, Barros, Honda, 500c: 1’52.811
2001, Rossi, Honda, 500cc: 1’52.554
2002, Rossi, Honda, 990cc: 1’51.258
2003, Rossi, Honda, 990cc: 1’51.927
2004, Gibernau, Honda, 990cc: 1’49.920
2005, Rossi, Yamaha, 990cc: 1’49.223
2006, Gibernau, Ducati, 990cc: 1’48.969
2007, Stoner, Ducati, 800cc: 2’00.359
2008, Rossi, Yamaha, 800cc: 1’48.130
2009, Lorenzo, Yamaha, 800cc: 1’48.987
2010, Pedrosa, Honda, 800cc: 1’48.829
2011, Stoner, Honda, 800cc: 1’48.034
2012, Pedrosa, Honda, 800cc: 1’47.284
2013, Pedrosa, Honda, 1000cc: 1’47.157
2014, Marquez, Honda, 1000cc: 1’47.270
2015, Iannone, Ducati, 1000cc: 1’46.489
2016, Rossi, Yamaha, 1000cc: 1’46.504
2017, Vinales, Yamaha, 1000cc: 1’46.575
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 16, 2018, 10:38:22 am
Some more interesting comparisons still from Mugello:

1999 500cc pole time: Harada, Aprilia: 1'52.454
2014 Moto2 pole time:  Rabat, Kalex: 1'52.718
2017 Moto 2 pole time:  Morbidelli, Kalex: 1'51.679

Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 16, 2018, 01:20:31 pm
Very interesting, any chance of posting the lap times.

I could try and find that, but which lap times do we use?  Pole qualifying lap could work.

I did read an article on this a while back and those 500cc smokers were surprisingly slow on laptimes compared to the modern bikes.  They didn't have the brakes, suspensions and tyres.

POLE TIMES:

1999, Harada, Aprilia, 500cc: 1’52.454
2000, Barros, Honda, 500c: 1’52.811
2001, Rossi, Honda, 500cc: 1’52.554
2002, Rossi, Honda, 990cc: 1’51.258
2003, Rossi, Honda, 990cc: 1’51.927
2004, Gibernau, Honda, 990cc: 1’49.920
2005, Rossi, Yamaha, 990cc: 1’49.223
2006, Gibernau, Ducati, 990cc: 1’48.969
2007, Stoner, Ducati, 800cc: 2’00.359
2008, Rossi, Yamaha, 800cc: 1’48.130
2009, Lorenzo, Yamaha, 800cc: 1’48.987
2010, Pedrosa, Honda, 800cc: 1’48.829
2011, Stoner, Honda, 800cc: 1’48.034
2012, Pedrosa, Honda, 800cc: 1’47.284
2013, Pedrosa, Honda, 1000cc: 1’47.157
2014, Marquez, Honda, 1000cc: 1’47.270
2015, Iannone, Ducati, 1000cc: 1’46.489
2016, Rossi, Yamaha, 1000cc: 1’46.504
2017, Vinales, Yamaha, 1000cc: 1’46.575
Slow 2-strokes pffft
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 16, 2018, 01:21:03 pm
You can even translate this to MX and SX, the 4T's left the 2T's for dead.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 16, 2018, 01:24:51 pm
Slow 2-strokes pffft

 :imaposer: Well, considering that the 2strokes is exactly half the capacity, the 4strokes actually look decidedly lame. :ricky:
The topic says quite clearly MotoGP top speeds over the years, the capacity etc. is irrelevant.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: jaybiker on January 16, 2018, 01:59:45 pm
A possibly interesting or possibly irrelevant comparison.

In the 1970's there was a 750cc World championship class. Not sure of the exact year, but more than 40 years ago anyway, Kenny Roberts was dismayed at having been timed in excess of 204 miles per hour, that's 326kmh. on the Yamaha TZ750.

He advocated that the class be dropped, and that the maximum capacity limit be reduced to 350cc. Maybe with good reason considering the chassis, suspension and tyre technology at the time, and the complete absence of any of today's electronic safeguards.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 16, 2018, 02:11:10 pm
A possibly interesting or possibly irrelevant comparison.

In the 1970's there was a 750cc World championship class. Not sure of the exact year, but more than 40 years ago anyway, Kenny Roberts was dismayed at having been timed in excess of 204 miles per hour, that's 326kmh. on the Yamaha TZ750.

He advocated that the class be dropped, and that the maximum capacity limit be reduced to 350cc. Maybe with good reason considering the chassis, suspension and tyre technology at the time, and the complete absence of any of today's electronic safeguards.

Good memory old man.  It was the Formula 750 Class.  Initially an Amercan thing, but grew to world championship status in around 1977.
At one point thoughts were that it would overtake the 500cc Grand Prix class as the premier racing event.  A few things led to the death of the class.  The total domination of the Yamaha TZ750 and possibly the growth of the Superbike production class and possibly riders advocating against the 750's.  The FIM stopped the series just around 1980, or so.   .
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 16, 2018, 02:13:11 pm
A possibly interesting or possibly irrelevant comparison.

In the 1970's there was a 750cc World championship class. Not sure of the exact year, but more than 40 years ago anyway, Kenny Roberts was dismayed at having been timed in excess of 204 miles per hour, that's 326kmh. on the Yamaha TZ750.

He advocated that the class be dropped, and that the maximum capacity limit be reduced to 350cc. Maybe with good reason considering the chassis, suspension and tyre technology at the time, and the complete absence of any of today's electronic safeguards.
With a claimed 100 - 120 HP and 1970's aerodynamics that is impressive ???

Nice TZ history
http://big-diesel.blogspot.co.za/2009/04/tz750-yzr500-track-monsters-from-yamaha.html
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Sheepman on January 16, 2018, 02:20:43 pm
You can even translate this to MX and SX, the 4T's left the 2T's for dead.

There is a thread on moto 101 on this topic - where johnny says his 4t is faster than pieties 2t  -  total nonsensical. 
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 16, 2018, 02:28:22 pm
You can even translate this to MX and SX, the 4T's left the 2T's for dead.

There is a thread on moto 101 on this topic - where johnny says his 4t is faster than pieties 2t  -  total nonsensical.
Another die hard 2T fan, just having a bit of fun  ;) I had plenty of 2T race replicas and enjoyed them for what they were.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Sheepman on January 16, 2018, 02:41:15 pm
You can even translate this to MX and SX, the 4T's left the 2T's for dead.

There is a thread on moto 101 on this topic - where johnny says his 4t is faster than pieties 2t  -  total nonsensical.
Another die hard 2T fan, just having a bit of fun  ;) I had plenty of 2T race replicas and enjoyed them for what they were.

No not at all  :laughing4: modern 4ts are very good..... in the right hands.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Cracker on January 16, 2018, 06:34:28 pm
So, Kenny was scared and decided it was better if no-one rode the class - not just him?

Sounds American ........ so maybe it's true .......
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Epilot on January 16, 2018, 07:12:25 pm
2T/4T it doesn’t matter, technology wins every time. The latest are always the fastest (sorry 5002T fans) but that’s just the way it is.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Bensien on January 16, 2018, 07:16:41 pm
On a MotoGP bike, top speed is not all that important. For every track, bikes are geared to produce the fastest lap time, not the highest speed at the end of the main straight. Highest top speed does also not necessarily mean that you can close distance on the straight. Even in drag racing, the losing car sometimes posts a higher terminal speed, but the winning car had better acceleration initially and opened up a gap that was too big to close.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Epilot on January 16, 2018, 07:40:05 pm
Quote, top speed is not all that important.

Tell that to the dude who is doing 20km/ph less than the rest of the field.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Sheepman on January 16, 2018, 08:02:37 pm
2T/4T it doesn’t matter, technology wins every time. The latest are always the fastest (sorry 5002T fans) but that’s just the way it is.

You miss the point - its not about 4t vs 2t its about top speeds over the years ( and later lap times ) - the 2 vs 4t spieel was just a bit of a googly from Sidetrack  ;)
Of course bikes, like most other things, evolve and nobody lives in the past, yet besides all the evolution and good things, there is a lot of institutional knowledge here about where Moto GP comes from.
And, like it dont like it - those early smokers ripped for their time  8)


Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Bensien on January 16, 2018, 08:21:37 pm
Quote, top speed is not all that important.

Tell that to the dude who is doing 20km/ph less than the rest of the field.
[/quote

Please go back and read carefully. I did not say top speed is irrelevant. I said that the highest top speed does not necessarily mean the fastest lap time.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Epilot on January 16, 2018, 09:22:46 pm
@ bensien, I do get your point,  just stirring, a hp 2 will have a higher top speed than a moto gp bike, but the lap time will be crap.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 17, 2018, 07:46:35 am
On a MotoGP bike, top speed is not all that important. For every track, bikes are geared to produce the fastest lap time, not the highest speed at the end of the main straight. Highest top speed does also not necessarily mean that you can close distance on the straight. Even in drag racing, the losing car sometimes posts a higher terminal speed, but the winning car had better acceleration initially and opened up a gap that was too big to close.

It is an extremely delicate balancing act and it differs from track to track.  At Mugello top speed would be more important than at Motegi, for instance and so, bike setup is critical.  There is no use for an extra 10km/h top speed, if you lose that advantage and more under braking and acceleration in the first corner.  Of course, if you can get the extra 10km/h and not ;loose the advantage then you are in the pound seats.  . 

@ bensien, I do get your point,  just stirring, a hp 2 will have a higher top speed than a moto gp bike, but the lap time will be crap.

HP2?  You will have 2SD barfing in his cornflakes, unless you meant H2R?   :biggrin:
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 17, 2018, 08:53:16 am
2T/4T it doesn’t matter, technology wins every time. The latest are always the fastest (sorry 5002T fans) but that’s just the way it is.

You miss the point - its not about 4t vs 2t its about top speeds over the years ( and later lap times ) - the 2 vs 4t spieel was just a bit of a googly from Sidetrack  ;)
Of course bikes, like most other things, evolve and nobody lives in the past, yet besides all the evolution and good things, there is a lot of institutional knowledge here about where Moto GP comes from.
And, like it dont like it - those early smokers ripped for their time  8)

You are correct.  It is not about 2T versus 4T, albeit an interesting discussion as well.  It show the technology jumps.  The 800's were faster than the 990's.  That doesn't mean smaller is faster.  What it does show is how technology jumped, not just in terms of engines, but also tyres, brakes, suspensions, etc..

The 2 smokes did rip and one wonders, if the technology jumps we have seen with the modern 4T engine also happened with 2T engines, where they would have been.today. 

What I would have loved to know :

Compare 1999 with 2017 and we see that the 1999 smoker was 5.8 seconds a lap slower at Mugello than the 2017 4T.  That would be just around 2.5 minutes for the whole race.  What is the cost difference between the 1999 bike and team and the 2017 bike and team, i.e. what does that 2.5 gained minutes actually cost?
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Epilot on January 17, 2018, 03:33:33 pm
 Sorry bear I meant that green Japanese bike, but what is interesting is the moto2 bikes are lapping faster than the old 500s, and there top speed is nearly 40ks off the pace. It just shows how tyres and suspension have improved over the years.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 17, 2018, 10:42:41 pm
2T/4T it doesn’t matter, technology wins every time. The latest are always the fastest (sorry 5002T fans) but that’s just the way it is.

Technology wins every time, for sure, so put a modern 500cc 4stroke up against a modern 500cc 2stroke, both using the latest in chassis development. :ricky: :ricky:

The 2stroke engine do have double the combustion strokes, but it also have only half the 4strokes power stroke.

The way the fuel is carried from carb through transfer ports to combustion chamber, also limits the 2strokes' ability to rev as well as a 4stroke.

Yet, an equal size 2stroke will always beat a 4stroke.

In fact, I don't thinkyou can find a modern 350 4stroke to even beat a 1983 Yamaha RD 350. :imaposer:

But don't worry, the 4strokes are really good too, and actually much more usable over a wide range of applications.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 18, 2018, 09:46:42 am
Sorry bear I meant that green Japanese bike, but what is interesting is the moto2 bikes are lapping faster than the old 500s, and there top speed is nearly 40ks off the pace. It just shows how tyres and suspension have improved over the years.

Indeed.  Tyres, brakes and suspension made huge improvements over the years.  I think way more than we realise.  Keep in mind, this is Mugello with a heck of a long straight.  WOuld love to make a comparison with on of the tracks with a very short straight, like Motegi.  The issue is finding a track that has not changed between 1999 and now.  Mugello is one of few..

2T/4T it doesn’t matter, technology wins every time. The latest are always the fastest (sorry 5002T fans) but that’s just the way it is.

Technology wins every time, for sure, so put a modern 500cc 4stroke up against a modern 500cc 2stroke, both using the latest in chassis development. :ricky: :ricky:


It would be interesting seeing a 1999 2T 500 on a 2017 frame, suspension and brakes, with all the added engine management that could work on a 2T. 

The way I see it, the massive jump in tech came in tyres, suspension, frame and brakes.  Upgrade a 1999 500 with this and then compare.  I reckon they would be right there..
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Suzukli DL on January 18, 2018, 10:02:52 am
Quote
It would be interesting seeing a 1999 2T 500 on a 2017 frame, suspension and brakes, with all the added engine management that could work on a 2T.

The way I see it, the massive jump in tech came in tyres, suspension, frame and brakes.  Upgrade a 1999 500 with this and then compare.  I reckon they would be right there..

Interesting concept and I understand what you mean but the reality is that the entire package is built with synergy in mind and it would not work. Also, I fear that even with improved emission control on modern 2T's to comply with the tree huggers a complete build of a 2T MotoGp bike would be prohibitively expensive as R&D would have to start from scratch. Just my opinion though.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 18, 2018, 10:12:03 am
Sorry bear I meant that green Japanese bike, but what is interesting is the moto2 bikes are lapping faster than the old 500s, and there top speed is nearly 40ks off the pace. It just shows how tyres and suspension have improved over the years.

Indeed.  Tyres, brakes and suspension made huge improvements over the years.  I think way more than we realise.  Keep in mind, this is Mugello with a heck of a long straight.  WOuld love to make a comparison with on of the tracks with a very short straight, like Motegi.  The issue is finding a track that has not changed between 1999 and now.  Mugello is one of few..

2T/4T it doesn’t matter, technology wins every time. The latest are always the fastest (sorry 5002T fans) but that’s just the way it is.

Technology wins every time, for sure, so put a modern 500cc 4stroke up against a modern 500cc 2stroke, both using the latest in chassis development. :ricky: :ricky:


It would be interesting seeing a 1999 2T 500 on a 2017 frame, suspension and brakes, with all the added engine management that could work on a 2T. 

The way I see it, the massive jump in tech came in tyres, suspension, frame and brakes.  Upgrade a 1999 500 with this and then compare.  I reckon they would be right there..
I don't think so a 2T is inherently more difficult to ride. It would take a really good rider to make the most of it. All the older MotoGP riders will tell you that.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 18, 2018, 12:14:09 pm
Sorry bear I meant that green Japanese bike, but what is interesting is the moto2 bikes are lapping faster than the old 500s, and there top speed is nearly 40ks off the pace. It just shows how tyres and suspension have improved over the years.

Indeed.  Tyres, brakes and suspension made huge improvements over the years.  I think way more than we realise.  Keep in mind, this is Mugello with a heck of a long straight.  WOuld love to make a comparison with on of the tracks with a very short straight, like Motegi.  The issue is finding a track that has not changed between 1999 and now.  Mugello is one of few..

2T/4T it doesn’t matter, technology wins every time. The latest are always the fastest (sorry 5002T fans) but that’s just the way it is.

Technology wins every time, for sure, so put a modern 500cc 4stroke up against a modern 500cc 2stroke, both using the latest in chassis development. :ricky: :ricky:


It would be interesting seeing a 1999 2T 500 on a 2017 frame, suspension and brakes, with all the added engine management that could work on a 2T. 

The way I see it, the massive jump in tech came in tyres, suspension, frame and brakes.  Upgrade a 1999 500 with this and then compare.  I reckon they would be right there..
I don't think so a 2T is inherently more difficult to ride. It would take a really good rider to make the most of it. All the older MotoGP riders will tell you that.

It is not so much about a 2T versus a 4T, but rather about 17 years of development in technology.  Any 1999 bike will be more difficult to ride, if compared to its 2017 cousin. 
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 18, 2018, 12:23:05 pm
A 300 enduro bike is much easier to ride than a 450 4stroke.

The 500 GP bikes was difficult to ride simply because they are inherently 4 x 125cc high performance engines. Peaky as hell.

But make a 1000cc V4 2stroke, and you'll have a much more rideable bike, despite the power being more, because your powerband gets spread much wider.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Rough Rider on January 18, 2018, 12:57:27 pm
Its all about traction control; take that away and the gap will close significantly
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 18, 2018, 01:08:20 pm
Its all about traction control; take that away and the gap will close significantly

Traction control must make a huge difference, but I believe other electronics  tyres, brakes and suspension also makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: ktmmer on January 18, 2018, 02:17:05 pm
A 300 enduro bike is much easier to ride than a 450 4stroke.

The 500 GP bikes was difficult to ride simply because they are inherently 4 x 125cc high performance engines. Peaky as hell.

But make a 1000cc V4 2stroke, and you'll have a much more rideable bike, despite the power being more, because your powerband gets spread much wider.
[/b][/size]

Imagine that !
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: KiLRoy on January 18, 2018, 11:40:29 pm
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 19, 2018, 08:32:34 am
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 19, 2018, 08:50:51 am
A 300 enduro bike is much easier to ride than a 450 4stroke.

The 500 GP bikes was difficult to ride simply because they are inherently 4 x 125cc high performance engines. Peaky as hell.

But make a 1000cc V4 2stroke, and you'll have a much more rideable bike, despite the power being more, because your powerband gets spread much wider.
[/b][/size]

Imagine that !
Would be unrideable even with electronic aids, the system will kick in so often it will be a real pain to get any momentum going. Whilst Mr 2T is high sided into the gravel trap Mr 4T will cruise past and take the checkers  :deal:
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 19, 2018, 09:35:55 am
Still on Mugello.  250GP (2T) compared to Moto2:

2009 Last year of 250GP:

- Pole:  Bautista, Aprilia, 1'52.804
- Top speed:  Pasini, Aprilia, 288.1

2010 Moto 2 First year Moto 2:

- Pole:  Iannone, SpeedUp, 1'55.598
- Top Speed: Redding, Suter, 284.9

2017 Moto 2:

- Pole:  Morbidellie, Kalex, 1'51.679
- Top speed:  Kent, Kalex, 291.8

Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 19, 2018, 09:37:33 am
A 300 enduro bike is much easier to ride than a 450 4stroke.

The 500 GP bikes was difficult to ride simply because they are inherently 4 x 125cc high performance engines. Peaky as hell.

But make a 1000cc V4 2stroke, and you'll have a much more rideable bike, despite the power being more, because your powerband gets spread much wider.
[/b][/size]

Imagine that !
Would be unrideable even with electronic aids, the system will kick in so often it will be a real pain to get any momentum going. Whilst Mr 2T is high sided into the gravel trap Mr 4T will cruise past and take the checkers  :deal:

Not sure about this.  The modern 2T will be fuel injected and have other fancy stuff to have a much flatter power band.  Coupled with rider aids, which is way more than just traction control, it might well compete, or even kick arse.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Suzukli DL on January 19, 2018, 10:33:07 am
http://suter500.com/engineering/ will try dog up some more info and stats when I am desktop bound
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 19, 2018, 10:40:05 am
http://suter500.com/engineering/ will try dog up some more info and stats when I am desktop bound

Interesting bike (V4 576cc, 2-Smoke), but not blazing the world in terms of performance.  It is not bad, but not as good as one would expect.  The bike with Ian Lougher finished well in the 2016 IoM Superbike race.  10th, if memory serves.       Unfortunately they did not participate in 2017.

Search a video on YouTube.  The bloody thing sounds absolutely amazing.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 19, 2018, 10:57:35 am
What was that 3 cylinder 300 something cc Honda Taddy Ukada (I think) ran in the 500 GP class for a year or two ?
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Suzukli DL on January 19, 2018, 12:06:42 pm
As far as I know Tadayuki Okada races a NSR500V which was a twin and then a NSR500 V4, the triple that came before these was a NS500.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Suzukli DL on January 19, 2018, 12:12:36 pm
Yes not blazing performance TheBear considering that in the late 90's early 200's the NSR500 was pushing out more than 200HP.
This Suter mentioned seems to have electronic aid but no traction control though. Not finding much on the electronics.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Suzukli DL on January 19, 2018, 12:13:11 pm
As far as I know Tadayuki Okada raced a NSR500V which was a twin and then a NSR500 V4, the triple that came before these was a NS500.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 19, 2018, 12:38:27 pm
As far as I know Tadayuki Okada races a NSR500V which was a twin and then a NSR500 V4, the triple that came before these was a NS500.
May have been another Japanese rider but I remember the bike. Was Repsol Honda factory bike but was down on cc's and cylinders on the 500. Only used for a season or two as it did not make much of an impact.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Suzukli DL on January 19, 2018, 12:43:26 pm
This is the bike you thinking of. Not a triple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NSR500V
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: sidetrack on January 19, 2018, 12:49:56 pm
This is the bike you thinking of. Not a triple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NSR500V
Hah ok that is it  :thumleft:
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 19, 2018, 01:50:55 pm
What was that 3 cylinder 300 something cc Honda Taddy Ukada (I think) ran in the 500 GP class for a year or two ?

There was a period when the class was defined as an "350 to 500cc" class.  Quite a few riders competed on 350's during the changeover phase, but I can't remember who and up to when.

One of the huge advantages of the 2T era is anyone could buy a 2T and go race.  The modern 4T era makes that impossible.

The arrival of the first Moto3 bike in SA, for this reason,killed the class effectively.  The idea was to race the 125GP bikes and Moto3 bikes together. Soon the 125GP's couldn't compete and they dropped out, leaving only 3 bikes in the class.  Not enough for an official race.  This was a hectic class as anyone could buy their son a 125GP bike, pretty much from any year of manufacture without huge bucks and be competitive.  Moto3 bike had to be imported, at that time at R500 000.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: RobD on January 19, 2018, 02:00:31 pm
What was that 3 cylinder 300 something cc Honda Taddy Ukada (I think) ran in the 500 GP class for a year or two ?

There was a period when the class was defined as an "350 to 500cc" class.  Quite a few riders competed on 350's during the changeover phase, but I can't remember who and up to when.

One of the huge advantages of the 2T era is anyone could buy a 2T and go race.  The modern 4T era makes that impossible.

The arrival of the first Moto3 bike in SA, for this reason,killed the class effectively.  The idea was to race the 125GP bikes and Moto3 bikes together. Soon the 125GP's couldn't compete and they dropped out, leaving only 3 bikes in the class.  Not enough for an official race.  This was a hectic class as anyone could buy their son a 125GP bike, pretty much from any year of manufacture without huge bucks and be competitive.  Moto3 bike had to be imported, at that time at R500 000.

If I recall the 3 cylinder was also 500cc but had a lower weight limit than the 4 cylinder, also ran a single sided swingarm methinks
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 19, 2018, 03:12:06 pm
If I recall the 3 cylinder was also 500cc but had a lower weight limit than the 4 cylinder, also ran a single sided swingarm methinks

At one stage Honda did have a 500cc 3cyl, NS500.  It was replaced by the V4 NSR500.early 80's.



Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 19, 2018, 04:43:16 pm
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 22, 2018, 10:33:44 am
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: Sheepman on January 22, 2018, 04:04:39 pm
Very interesting stats Bear  :thumleft: As said, some don't like to admit it, but smokers ripped and still do....a lot, sadly mostly in offroad applications  ;)
There's nothing like the smell of 2 stroke early in the morning !
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on January 22, 2018, 04:12:05 pm
There's nothing like the smell of 2 stroke early in the morning !

Or a diesel idling that runs on 500pp not this stink 50 pp. :deal:
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 22, 2018, 06:33:42 pm
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

This is roedracing where wide full open throttle is regularly used.  If these 250 4T's are not limited like this, few would finish a race.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 22, 2018, 06:37:10 pm
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

If you change the rules so that the 2stroke becomes too small in capacity to compete, you are virtually outlawing them.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 23, 2018, 08:48:38 am
Very interesting stats Bear  :thumleft: As said, some don't like to admit it, but smokers ripped and still do....a lot, sadly mostly in offroad applications  ;)
There's nothing like the smell of 2 stroke early in the morning !

I am from that era Sheepman and cannot differ from you.  I felt like a man who lost his wife, girlfriend and dog in the same accident when the last of the 125GP 2-Smokes disappeared from the SA racing scene and I still love the sound and smell.  I guess I will always do as well.  They are just special.

Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

If you change the rules so that the 2stroke becomes too small in capacity to compete, you are virtually outlawing them.

Which part off "phased out for ecological reasons" do you not grasp?

Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

This is roedracing where wide full open throttle is regularly used.  If these 250 4T's are not limited like this, few would finish a race.

Just an unprovable statement.  We don't know that for a fact and it is a rather weak excuse.

Fact is Danie, like it or not, 4-Strokes are now the bikes doing the racing.  Can one of the big manufacturers build a 2-Smoke that can keep up, or even kick ass?  Yes.  I have no doubt.  It is however a moot point as it is unlikely to happen.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 23, 2018, 09:39:55 am
@Bear; yes, I realize 4strokes are now doing the racing, and I do not even have a big problem with that, still close and good racing.

On the ecological front, you only need one 4stroke to blow it's guts out to equal a full season of 2stroke pollution. And go google how much oil is consumed by the 250 single 4strokes in one race, you would fall over backwards. It is actually more than the 2strokes used.

The 250 4strokes, in MX terms, have an incredibly short life-span. In Moto3 it is even worse, seeing that wide open throttle is used more often, which is when a moter is under full load and taking most strain.
And of course, it is not an "excuse" at all, just a fact.  4Strokes rev higher than 2strokes, with more moving parts and higher part inertia. 4Strokes are more fragile than 2strokes under even conditions.

Like you, I am also a 2stroke fan, and mourn their demise.
Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: TheBear on January 23, 2018, 09:55:17 am
Ja Danie, I do not think the ecological thing carries any water either, but it is what led to the demise of the 2-smokes. 

As for reliability, the Moto3 bikes are only allowed 6 engines per season.  That means the engines need to last for 18 races, including free practices, qualifying, testing, etc.  They are pretty reliable and the rev limit is set to make the playing field level.  I don't think it is to save the engines.  If it was about reliability, the manufacturers would have set the limit themselves.  Honda, for instance is constantly pushing for a 500rpm increase in the rules.  This means they are confident they can go the season on 6 engines at an extra 500rpm.  That being said, the 125GP 2-strokes could probably doe it with half the number of engines.

Title: Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
Post by: 2StrokeDan on January 24, 2018, 07:39:37 am
Ja Danie, I do not think the ecological thing carries any water either, but it is what led to the demise of the 2-smokes. 

As for reliability, the Moto3 bikes are only allowed 6 engines per season.  That means the engines need to last for 18 races, including free practices, qualifying, testing, etc.  They are pretty reliable and the rev limit is set to make the playing field level.  I don't think it is to save the engines.  If it was about reliability, the manufacturers would have set the limit themselves.  Honda, for instance is constantly pushing for a 500rpm increase in the rules.  This means they are confident they can go the season on 6 engines at an extra 500rpm.  That being said, the 125GP 2-strokes could probably doe it with half the number of engines.

 :thumleft: