Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => BMW 1200 LC => Topic started by: COLES on January 18, 2019, 02:31:00 pm

Title: Ping of engine
Post by: COLES on January 18, 2019, 02:31:00 pm
Hello Dogs Am I the only person that ones a 2018 GSA 1200 that pings. The bike has just over 5000 km on and has been back to the dealer twice but the problem persists.

Reminds me of my rally cars that had to higher compression ratio and the fuel (pump) was just not good enough and had to use 102 jet fuel. 


keen to hear from the riders 
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Brucet on January 18, 2019, 03:34:17 pm
My late 2017 also did it. I have replaced the headers with Akrapovic ones (effectively removing the cat) and my bike no longer pings/suffered with detonation.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: BuRP on January 20, 2019, 08:29:09 pm
Try using spark plugs that are one (1 !) degree/grade warmer/hotter?
This in effect increasing the the volume of the combustion chamber by a minute amount, it may just do the trick.
Do not go 2 degrees higher!
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: EssBee on January 28, 2019, 11:36:14 am
I experience it a lot riding two up and the going gets a little rough, powering out of slow corners for instance when the revs are pretty low.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Brucet on January 28, 2019, 11:39:52 am
Im not expert but I would say change up a gear then.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: BuRP on January 28, 2019, 12:50:00 pm
Im not expert but I would say change up a gear then.

I'm no expert either but ehh, I'd say it's better to change a gear down?
 :P
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: TheBear on January 28, 2019, 12:50:43 pm
I do experience a bit of ping when really hot.  About 34 degrees upward.

I grew up in the era of distributors, point,condensors, etc. so I just change one gear down, or relax on the throttle a tad.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Ouman on January 28, 2019, 12:55:43 pm
I had a similar problem on my 2014 GS. Turned out to be the throttle bodies that were out of sync! A spell on the laptop sorted it.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Snafu on January 28, 2019, 01:20:02 pm
I am not sure about the LC's, but the old boxers are all running lean below 3000rpm

Is there a booster plug available for the LC's ?

Here is 33 pages of pinging for you :)
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=49103.0
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Jughead on January 29, 2019, 09:04:26 am
Most likely your cam timing that is out.

The important thing when adjusting them is to put the correct tension on the chain to simulate what the tension would be while the motor is running.  Most of the LC's I have serviced have had cams that were out.  Strange thing is that on most of them the left cylinder was further out than the right.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Brucet on January 29, 2019, 09:15:22 am
Im not expert but I would say change up a gear then.

I'm no expert either but ehh, I'd say it's better to change a gear down?
 :P

100%....appologies thats what I meant. duh!
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: OomD on January 29, 2019, 11:27:56 am
Most likely your cam timing that is out.

The important thing when adjusting them is to put the correct tension on the chain to simulate what the tension would be while the motor is running.  Most of the LC's I have serviced have had cams that were out.  Strange thing is that on most of them the left cylinder was further out than the right.
How on earth does the CAM timing go out between service intervals?
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Jughead on January 29, 2019, 12:35:50 pm
Most likely your cam timing that is out.

The important thing when adjusting them is to put the correct tension on the chain to simulate what the tension would be while the motor is running.  Most of the LC's I have serviced have had cams that were out.  Strange thing is that on most of them the left cylinder was further out than the right.
How on earth does the CAM timing go out between service intervals?

No idea.  These cams are gear driven and the gear is not locked onto the end of the cam with a locator pin like the older models.  So if you loosen the bolt, you can rotate the cam to anywhere you want it and tighten it in that position again.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: BuRP on January 29, 2019, 12:51:28 pm
These cams are gear driven and the gear is not locked onto the end of the cam with a locator pin like the older models.  So if you loosen the bolt, you can rotate the cam to anywhere you want it and tighten it in that position again.

Quite frankly, and I'll skip the "my dear" bit lol, I don't believe that!
If no pin or key is used then it will be a taper fit - which, by simply loosening the bolt, will still stick like hell, hence will require a press of sharp rap or the like to get loose.
Show me a pic if I'm wrong, I am more than prepared to eat humblepie... but like you say a simple bolt will not hold any camshaft timing!


Waiting with baited breath....  :P
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: TheBear on January 29, 2019, 01:11:06 pm
Most likely your cam timing that is out.

The important thing when adjusting them is to put the correct tension on the chain to simulate what the tension would be while the motor is running.  Most of the LC's I have serviced have had cams that were out.  Strange thing is that on most of them the left cylinder was further out than the right.
How on earth does the CAM timing go out between service intervals?

No idea.  These cams are gear driven and the gear is not locked onto the end of the cam with a locator pin like the older models.  So if you loosen the bolt, you can rotate the cam to anywhere you want it and tighten it in that position again.

Hard to believe, but if correct, that would explain why cam timing would go out regularly.  There is no way to tighten that bolt to completely prevent slippage .... or, is there? 

Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Jughead on January 29, 2019, 01:12:36 pm
These cams are gear driven and the gear is not locked onto the end of the cam with a locator pin like the older models.  So if you loosen the bolt, you can rotate the cam to anywhere you want it and tighten it in that position again.

Quite frankly, and I'll skip the "my dear" bit lol, I don't believe that!
If no pin or key is used then it will be a taper fit - which, by simply loosening the bolt, will still stick like hell, hence will require a press of sharp rap or the like to get loose.
Show me a pic if I'm wrong, I am more than prepared to eat humblepie... but like you say a simple bolt will not hold any camshaft timing!


Waiting with baited breath....  :P

"Quite frankly", I'm not about to dismantle a client's bike to prove you wrong.  If you have ever worked on one of these bikes you would know better.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: BuRP on January 29, 2019, 01:37:35 pm
Jughead,

with pics I had the below in mind - and Yes, I'm eating humblepie now: Excuse me Sir, I am wrong and you are right!

Bolt 6 says it all, not even a thick plate to increase the friction surface - and I'll take your work now that no conical fit is present.
No wonder they run out, I call that a shoddy connection for an inherently intermittent load & direction connection, in fact it surprises me it works!
No locking fluid prescribed between shaft & gear when assembling it?
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: TheBear on January 29, 2019, 02:32:35 pm
Jughead,

with pics I had the below in mind - and Yes, I'm eating humblepie now: Excuse me Sir, I am wrong and you are right!

Bolt 6 says it all, not even a thick plate to increase the friction surface - and I'll take your work now that no conical fit is present.
No wonder they run out, I call that a shoddy connection for an inherently intermittent load & direction connection, in fact it surprises me it works!
No locking fluid prescribed between shaft & gear when assembling it?

Yeah well, my mouth is hanging open.  I am no engineer, nor a mechanic, but from years and years of maplotter experience of making stuff the MacGyver way, I can just not see that work well.   :eek7:
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: OomD on January 29, 2019, 03:20:44 pm
Holy moly! I have never seen such an assembly before. No gudgeon pin, no keyed mating, nothing!

Kan jy dit nou oorvertel!

Off course, if that bolt works loose at the wrong time it's goodbye pistons, etc! This just does not compute! Is there any kind of limit to the range of motion of that cam gear onto the shaft?

Edit: And, is there any kind of guide or indication of alignment if you took it apart, and want to reassemble?
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: SuperDavexlv750r on January 29, 2019, 04:04:39 pm
If I am seeing correctly - it is a kak design.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: BuRP on January 29, 2019, 04:07:24 pm
I said I didn't believe it,
I'm clearly wrong looking at the parts fiche,
but I still don't believe it - for a Deutsche Grundlichkeit BMW mind, for with a cheapchina thingy one can expect anything problems included.

It's a mechanically lousy construction with 2 advantages: cheap to manufacture (conical fits are costly) and infinite degree-ing of the cams possible, however the latter is only of use when racing.
They probably have done this to simply, and cheaply, assure that the narrowish gears will align - but imagine the pain it must be to time these camshafts!
The relentless intermittent bi-directional shockloading is a high risk for working itself loose, and what happens when one miss down-shifts?
Happens to the best, and I know of trucks bending their rockers when that happens!
Then also add infinite temperature changes, hardly conducive for retaining this kind of bond in an oily environment.

If this were mine I'd use a Loctite 601/603/672 between these parts to secure them in place even if not prescribed, I'd feel a lot better!
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: raffie on January 29, 2019, 04:28:24 pm
Lots of modern car engines run this setup on the crank and can pulleys, keyways and dowel pins are not load bearing, if they were they would wear out/break of eventually. They are primarily for locating and timing purposes.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: BuRP on January 29, 2019, 07:11:15 pm
keyways and dowel pins are not load bearing, if they were they would wear out/break of eventually. They are primarily for locating and timing purposes.

Correct - but a conical pressfit is definitely loadbearing, plus secure as houses.
A mere bolt-pressure friction fit is infinitely less so.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: OomD on January 29, 2019, 09:33:31 pm
I just read the removal and installation instructions of the camshaft driven gears in my Haynes manual. There is a special alignment tool the BMW uses during assembly, off course. The gear's bolt needs to be tightened to 65Nm torque. That's a shitload of torque, even more than the rear wheel (which is 60Nm).
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: Jughead on January 29, 2019, 10:28:48 pm

Off course, if that bolt works loose at the wrong time it's goodbye pistons, etc!

Surprisingly, nothing gets damaged.  I have had 2 bikes where the gears have come loose.  No damage occurs as there is no longer any rotation of the cam, and thus nothing to open the valves.  Cam merely stops turning and will most likely always stop when the most pressure is applied, which is while the valves are opening.  Gear comes loose and the cam just spins back to a point where there is no more pressure from the valves.

As far as alignment goes, there are 3 tools used in combination to set the cams correctly.  First one locks the motor at TDC.  Second tool replaces the chain tensioner and tensions the chain as though the motor is running.  Third tool fits onto the end of the cams to align them correctly.  Then it's just a matter of tightening the bolts again.
Title: Re: Ping of engine
Post by: silvrav on January 30, 2019, 01:47:04 am
Its the nature of the boxer engine  :peepwall: :pot: