Wild Dog Adventure Riding

Technical Section => Make / Model Specific Discussions => KTM LC4 400/610/640 & 690 => Topic started by: Archangel on May 22, 2019, 01:28:25 pm

Title: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 22, 2019, 01:28:25 pm
Collected this guy from Julian (aka Wrench, Superbike Solutions) yesterday.

In Julian's true words "Just like all 690s known to man, this bike has a cutout issue"   :lol8:

Description from Bendre (the owner):
Quote
the bike will still die at stops, but this won’t happen so often anymore. Apparently to fix this you need to do a dyno tune. I experienced this while driving in Somerset West, where the revolutions gradually goes lower until the bike dies. It luckily started easily for me to continue my drive. It however died quicker as I continued driving. Then I jumped on the N2 to Cape Town and all was good. When I got onto a slow road again it died immediately when I lowered the revolutions, even though I tried to hold the throttle slightly open. It also struggled to start. Later while driving the revolutions just falls away and it died. At two instances, it back fired quite dramatically. Then, 2 km before my house it died again and just did not want to start again.

Here's what Julian has done thus far...
Quote
We stripped the tank and fuel pump, cleaned the tank again which had a pasty residue from the stale fuel.

Replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter.

Had the injector reconditioned again, Bosch confirmed a drip and no atomise on the left nozzles of the injector which cause damming.

Removed the rotor to confirm that the woodruff key had not broken or bent.

Confirmed correct air gap between the crankshaft position sensor and the phonic wheel.

Removed valve cover to check valve clearances and confirm correct valve timing.

Reset ECU via IDC5 diagnostics.

Reset grip position and throttle position via IDC5 diagnostics.

Checked all wiring from ignition switch to kill switch to ECU.

The trouble is that Julian fixed whatever they thought the issue was, but Bendre doesn't ride often enough or provide enough details wrt when and how the bike stalls or behaves to help diagnose the problem. It has also been to several other mechanics, so it may be that some previous tinkering has made this worse. Who knows? Anyways, the plan is to commute on it for a while (knowing it's likely to die on me, but happy to make plans around that) and see if I can get to the bottom of the issue. Let the games begin! :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SMC - Helping out a friend
Post by: Rough Rider on May 22, 2019, 02:29:27 pm
It's those hideous pipes  :pot:

BTW it's an SM not an SMC.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 22, 2019, 02:55:28 pm
It's those hideous pipes  :pot:

Not my favourite looking bike in general either...  :o

BTW it's an SM not an SMC.

Thanks, fixed. I have almost no experience with the 690, the different models or their issues.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Rough Rider on May 22, 2019, 04:13:35 pm
I owned one of these, it was a real love hate relationship. On it's day it was an awesome bike and on other days it was a pig.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: BuRP on May 22, 2019, 07:02:25 pm
Geezuss, what an ugly exhausts..... it that to aid the rider to get the thing to wheelie?  :eek7:

I'd put a new - new! - injector in it in a heartbeat!
The mentioned 'gunk' may have collected here or re-collected here (after all the work) as cleaning of fuel lines isn't that easy.
If not cured I'd look further down the (fuel-)line.
Perhaps I'll get change from these two cents...  ;)
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: sidetrack on May 23, 2019, 08:09:51 am
Reckon those pipes came off a Mack truck  :biggrin:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 23, 2019, 08:48:47 am
After charging overnight, it swung and started once or twice for a couple of seconds, but couldn't get it to run/idle. Then the battery went dead with all the attempts to start. Back on the charger for now, but think we'll get life out of it tonight.  :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Rough Rider on May 23, 2019, 08:51:58 am
These bikes had the stalling issue from new, it is unlikely that there is a cure for it.
What will help is the 15 minute idle recalibration.
Start the bike when it is ice cold and let it idle for 15 minutes without touching the throttle.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Rough Rider on May 23, 2019, 08:53:01 am
After charging overnight, it swung and started once or twice for a couple of seconds, but couldn't get it to run/idle. Then the battery went dead with all the attempts to start. Back on the charger for now, but think we'll get life out of it tonight.  :thumleft:

You need a new battery, it sounds like that one has died.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 23, 2019, 09:14:47 am
After charging overnight, it swung and started once or twice for a couple of seconds, but couldn't get it to run/idle. Then the battery went dead with all the attempts to start. Back on the charger for now, but think we'll get life out of it tonight.  :thumleft:

You need a new battery, it sounds like that one has died.

Apparently it was bought this year still and seeing it's limited use with the bike standing at the shop throughout, I hope we can revive it. It's on the C-Tech now, which may (or may not) save it. Worth a shot, me thinks.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: MellowJo on May 23, 2019, 09:23:59 am
I see others have also tried to solve this ….

There are some interesting advice here ….
http://www.monomaniacs.nl/tnt/KTM-690/Stalling-and-throttle-issues
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 23, 2019, 10:40:23 pm
Swings over nicely, but just wont start. After removing the air-cover and spaying some "quick start" in there, it fires up for a few seconds and dies again. Also tried spraying some petrol in there and same thing. Fires up, runs for a few seconds and dies. This leads me to believe that the issue is fuel related.

So I'm wondering about the following:
Injector was cleaned. Should it rather be replaced?
Same goes for fuel pump. And the pressure regulator? What about the breather? Could it be that the tank is pulling a vacuum and therefore not allowing fuel through? I suppose this can be tested be giving it a swing with the fuel cap open. Of just a pinched fuel line somewhere.

Anyways, will start ticking things of the list tomorrow.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 24, 2019, 10:13:34 am
Any opinions on fitting of "Booster Plugs"?  :patch:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: BuRP on May 24, 2019, 11:01:31 am
Any opinions on fitting of "Booster Plugs"?

A better looking exhaust will also help, but will not fix the problem....
Get it to run first, then farkle it if you want to  ;)
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 24, 2019, 11:04:04 am
Any opinions on fitting of "Booster Plugs"?

A better looking exhaust will also help, but will not fix the problem....
Get it to run first, then farkle it if you want to  ;)

If the issue is fuel related and it's somehow not getting enough juice, perhaps the booster plug could provide that extra fuel needed?  :sip:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Mpandla on May 24, 2019, 11:21:21 am

If the issue is fuel related and it's somehow not getting enough juice, perhaps the booster plug could provide that extra fuel needed?  :sip:

It could by adjusting the air/fuel ratio on on/off throttle I guess. But if it already struggles to idle, I cant see how the plug will get it to run.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 24, 2019, 11:26:20 am

If the issue is fuel related and it's somehow not getting enough juice, perhaps the booster plug could provide that extra fuel needed?  :sip:

It could by adjusting the air/fuel ratio on on/off throttle I guess. But if it already struggles to idle, I cant see how the plug will get it to run.

I hear you. Just bouncing around some ideas. So who has a booster plug lying around that I can try?  :ricky:  Not keen on blowing R2.5k if it's not solving the problem.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: BuRP on May 24, 2019, 11:55:47 am
Your problem clearly is fuel starvation... so concentrate on that, not minuscule mixture adjustments.
You mentioned old fuel has been in there, then cleaned.
Cleaning such is a really difficult job but especially so the injector: like I said, buy/borrow a new one or one you know is working (still warm = best!), and you'll probably get a running engine.
If that doesn't do it do same with the pump.
And if that doesn't....
Capiche?  ;)


Edited: as soon as the thing ticks over do the various (throttle)calibrations mentioned above - and know you do NOT touch the throttle at all, you even kick your dog if it comes too close! To sum it up, all you touch then is: ignition On, starter button, wait, ignition Off!
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 24, 2019, 01:14:17 pm
Your problem clearly is fuel starvation... so concentrate on that, not minuscule mixture adjustments.
You mentioned old fuel has been in there, then cleaned.
Cleaning such is a really difficult job but especially so the injector: like I said, buy/borrow a new one or one you know is working (still warm = best!), and you'll probably get a running engine.
If that doesn't do it do same with the pump.
And if that doesn't....
Capiche?  ;)


Edited: as soon as the thing ticks over do the various (throttle)calibrations mentioned above - and know you do NOT touch the throttle at all, you even kick your dog if it comes too close! To sum it up, all you touch then is: ignition On, starter button, wait, ignition Off!

Already located 2nd hand spares including throttle body ass (including injector), fuel pump etc.

Totally with you on ticking them off the list.  :thumleft:

As for the throttle calibration, Julian has apparently done this ad nausiem, so not sure I'll be able to get it any better. That said, it's not running now.

As for the fuel pump, you can hear it running when you turn the ignition on/off, so it's unlikely that the issues stems from the pump itself. Could be blocked filters though. Or the pressure regulator I guess.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Welsh on May 24, 2019, 01:16:59 pm
Your problem clearly is fuel starvation... so concentrate on that, not minuscule mixture adjustments.
You mentioned old fuel has been in there, then cleaned.
Cleaning such is a really difficult job but especially so the injector: like I said, buy/borrow a new one or one you know is working (still warm = best!), and you'll probably get a running engine.
If that doesn't do it do same with the pump.
And if that doesn't....
Capiche?  ;)


Edited: as soon as the thing ticks over do the various (throttle)calibrations mentioned above - and know you do NOT touch the throttle at all, you even kick your dog if it comes too close! To sum it up, all you touch then is: ignition On, starter button, wait, ignition Off!

Already located 2nd hand spares including throttle body ass (including injector), fuel pump etc.

Totally with you on ticking them off the list.  :thumleft:

As for the throttle calibration, Julian has apparently done this ad nausiem, so not sure I'll be able to get it any better. That said, it's not running now.

As for the fuel pump, you can hear it running when you turn the ignition on/off, so it's unlikely that the issues stems from the pump itself. Could be blocked filters though. Or the pressure regulator I guess.
I am betting filters
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: BuRP on May 24, 2019, 01:35:01 pm
so it's unlikely that the issues stems from the pump itself.

Oh really?
A fuelpump's task is to deliver fuel at a certain pressure, not draw electricity by merely running or make a noise.
Same for your injector, it has to delivery a certain qty of fuel by means of atomizing it through all its holes. So you can skip this too because it runs at times, so this item also will be fine hmm?
To assume is a nasty habit when faultfinding, and I'll spare you the ass, u & me bit - check it, no, all!
The reason why I suspect the injector is the gum old fuel creates, and this tends to clog fine capillaries as found in an injector.
Having said that, if the pump hasn't been disassembled completely when cleaned this is the next suspect.
Ditto for fuel lines rather than filters, reason being the latter is an obvious one.
Remedying fuel starvation is actually simple, one just has to work methodically  ;)
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 24, 2019, 01:54:42 pm
so it's unlikely that the issues stems from the pump itself.

Oh really?
A fuelpump's task is to deliver fuel at a certain pressure, not draw electricity by merely running or make a noise.
Same for your injector, it has to delivery a certain qty of fuel by means of atomizing it through all its holes. So you can skip this too because it runs at times, so this item also will be fine hmm?
To assume is a nasty habit when faultfinding, and I'll spare you the ass, u & me bit - check it, no, all!
The reason why I suspect the injector is the gum old fuel creates, and this tends to clog fine capillaries as found in an injector.
Having said that, if the pump hasn't been disassembled completely when cleaned this is the next suspect.
Ditto for fuel lines rather than filters, reason being the latter is an obvious one.
Remedying fuel starvation is actually simple, one just has to work methodically  ;)

My experience with fuel pumps were that they mostly worked or not. Had issues with pumps on my previous KTM and Husky, so not the first time I'm replacing them. Never had issues with pumps working, but under delivering on flow rates though, as when those issues occurred (in my cases at least) it was always caused by blocked filters and fuel lines.

As for the injector - not sure I'll be able to clean it better than the guys at Bosch, but as mentioned, already looked at potentially replacing just to see if it improves the situation.

So I'm not saying that they're 100% and they will absolutely receive attention at some point, but that they have been checked to some extent and have therefore moved lower down on my checklist.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Rough Rider on May 24, 2019, 09:14:09 pm
Have you checked the air filter?
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 25, 2019, 09:10:40 am
Have tried starting it with the airbox cover under the seat removed/open, essentially bypassing the air filter with no success.

Update on the fuel pump: Its a brand new pump from Fuel Performance.

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Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: BuRP on May 25, 2019, 09:46:06 am
New is good!
Injectors can really only be cleaned with ultrasonic cleaners - the same your dentist uses, the liquid however a bit different  :P
But again, they must be completely disassembled first.... and even then no guarantees >>>> try a new one  ;)
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 25, 2019, 10:35:48 pm
And... she runs!

More details tomorrow  :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Manic on May 25, 2019, 10:42:33 pm
And... she runs!

More details tomorrow  :thumleft:

What did you do, put petrol in the tank  :imaposer:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 25, 2019, 10:45:20 pm
 :laughing4:

Close... One of the fuel lines was disconnected.

Have to admit that it wasn't me that fixed it. I used MellowJo's trailer to pick up the bike, so the bike was at his spot. They had people over Friday night, so I couldn't go and collect work there. Then I had a 1st birthday party this morning, followed by monthly groceries, so I haven't had time to go over there to tinker or investigate. Just as we got home at around 16h, he stopped at our place with the bike. His words "Sorry that I didn't wait for you to work on it".

I think he was worried about a) his Beemers picking up this KTM temperamental sickness, b) that he'd fall in love with this bike while it's there, c) the missus might have frowned about another pony in the stall or d) there may actually not physically have been any more space for another bike. Either way,  he wanted to get it out asap so the bike is at my place now and he can rest easy.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 25, 2019, 10:46:50 pm
Now that she's running, it's time to see if I can figure out the stalling/cut-out/backfire issue that I'm yet to experience.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 27, 2019, 08:21:16 am
Made the 30km commute to the office this morning. A few stalls here and there, but otherwise a quite enjoyable ride...  :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: geopat on May 27, 2019, 02:08:14 pm
couple of things worth checking

voltage while bike is running these bikes are fussy about having correct voltage both at the high and low range so could be shit battery(low side) or regulator(high side)

check your valves again thats what was causing my backfire and stall issues

bit of a hack but take your injector out and check the spray pattern (preff get it on video) then take off the fuel line and connect it to the discharge side of the injector use a jubilee clip and make it tight then turn the bike over a few times to blow any shit out the back after reconnect and compare spray pattern this sounds dodgy but it got me back from kaokoland to cape town last december

lastly check the voltage on the tps is within range apparently this can cause the bike to under supply fuel at idle
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 27, 2019, 02:46:19 pm
couple of things worth checking

voltage while bike is running these bikes are fussy about having correct voltage both at the high and low range so could be shit battery(low side) or regulator(high side)

check your valves again thats what was causing my backfire and stall issues

bit of a hack but take your injector out and check the spray pattern (preff get it on video) then take off the fuel line and connect it to the discharge side of the injector use a jubilee clip and make it tight then turn the bike over a few times to blow any shit out the back after reconnect and compare spray pattern this sounds dodgy but it got me back from kaokoland to cape town last december

lastly check the voltage on the tps is within range apparently this can cause the bike to under supply fuel at idle

Thanks for the feedback, I will (in due course) try all your suggestions.

The battery is new and is not properly charged, giving more than decent swing to the motor, so an unlikely candidate at the moment. I was thinking the voltage regulator, but haven't gotten around to measuring that. I have already located a replacement though.  :thumleft:

As for the valves, they were checked and set by Julian (whom I trust with this). He also checked and tuned the voltages from the tps to within the required ranges as per several of the guides online. Not sure I can improve, but will go that route if I can't find anything else.

As for the injector spray pattern and cleaning suggestion: I'd do this just because I'm curious to see what the result is and to learn more about how this system works.

I have picked up a Booster (on loan for now) and will see if that has any impact.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: MellowJo on May 27, 2019, 04:45:10 pm
:laughing4:

Close... One of the fuel lines was disconnected.

Have to admit that it wasn't me that fixed it. I used MellowJo's trailer to pick up the bike, so the bike was at his spot. They had people over Friday night, so I couldn't go and collect work there. Then I had a 1st birthday party this morning, followed by monthly groceries, so I haven't had time to go over there to tinker or investigate. Just as we got home at around 16h, he stopped at our place with the bike. His words "Sorry that I didn't wait for you to work on it".

I think he was worried about a) his Beemers picking up this KTM temperamental sickness, b) that he'd fall in love with this bike while it's there, c) the missus might have frowned about another pony in the stall or d) there may actually not physically have been any more space for another bike. Either way,  he wanted to get it out asap so the bike is at my place now and he can rest easy.

Come on, show them the video of the KTM on BMW Life support …  :imaposer:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Jacobsroodt on May 27, 2019, 05:15:32 pm
 :sip:
Dankie vir die gesels Archangel. Daai uitlaat kan een van die redes wees dat die fiets vrek oppad na 'n stop. BoosterPlug sal daai probleempie uitsorteer.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 27, 2019, 10:47:23 pm
Lyk ongelukkig of die booster plug toe nie die quick fix is nie. Sal more nog bietjie ry, maar hy het vanaand nog gevrek na ek dit install het.

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Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 27, 2019, 11:00:39 pm
Some criticism has gone towards the pipes and some even blame them for the stalling issues. The bike had these pipes fitted for several years before this stalling issue started, but in light of striking this from the list, I am trying different pipes to see if it makes any difference whatsoever.

 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/b0381537088909fac35db0da0f5d60ec.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/d31efe0c3a89f26b2f26a6229d86f4fe.jpg)

They also just so happen to look a bit better...

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Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 28, 2019, 11:36:59 am
OK, so next question is about the map setting switch thingy. There are talks about setting the map with a switch under the seat, but I haven't seen one. Did they start coming with this from a certain year or do only specific models have them?

From what I've read, the following applies:
POSITION:
0 - (BAD FUEL)
1 - (SLIPPERY)
2 - (POWER)
3 - (STANDARD)

4 to 10 - Nothing

Please bear with me as I learn and try to figure this out.  :study:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Blikkies1 on May 28, 2019, 12:51:29 pm
This may sound silly considering the expert hands that the bike has been through but cut about 1.5cm back on the spark-plug lead and replace the cap with a new one, had a similar issue on a WR and it was a cheap fix.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Welsh on May 28, 2019, 12:57:35 pm
This may sound silly considering the expert hands that the bike has been through but cut about 1.5cm back on the spark-plug lead and replace the cap, had a similar issue on a WR and it was a cheap fix.
you should ask Schalkl about an R1150GSA how many “experts” it had been to, it took about an hour to sort excluding driving 30km to get a spare injector plug.  :sip:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 28, 2019, 01:27:54 pm
FYI, this is what I did with the booster plug. Let me know if I'm missing anything here...

Situated inside the airbox, I have basically just put this guy in series with the air temp sensor.

Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Mpandla on May 28, 2019, 01:37:30 pm
FYI, this is what I did with the booster plug. Let me know if I'm missing anything here...

Situated inside the airbox, I have basically just put this guy in series with the air temp sensor.

Thats basically it yes
Doubt it will solve the issue though
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 28, 2019, 01:44:34 pm
FYI, this is what I did with the booster plug. Let me know if I'm missing anything here...

Situated inside the airbox, I have basically just put this guy in series with the air temp sensor.

Thats basically it yes
Doubt it will solve the issue though

You're right, it was always a long shot! At this moment it's trial and error, so it was worth the relatively little effort.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Mpandla on May 28, 2019, 01:49:16 pm

You're right, it was always a long shot! At this moment it's trial and error, so it was worth the relatively little effort.
.

It would probably sort out low rev throttle action but only once its running normally again.

Would still be interesting what effect those pipes have on the engine.

Does it still not want to idle properly?
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 28, 2019, 02:02:00 pm
It mostly idle's fine. And therein lies the problem...  :scratch:

Even now with the other exhaust, idles fine when it starts. Mostly idles fine when I stop at traffic lights or when I grab the clutch at speed. It's only a "now and then" intermittent thing that it suddenly starts spluttering and then dies. I also can't identify any triggers like quick throttle, constant throttle, bike getting to a certain temp.

:dontknow:

I'm tempted to strap the mutlimeter to the dash and hook it up to the battery/regulator to see what the voltages do. With the helmet cam, perhaps I can even capture voltage spikes or dips on video for reference purposes.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 28, 2019, 09:38:18 pm
Some clips of what it does...

Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Manic on May 28, 2019, 10:40:48 pm
On a few of my bikes, and Im sure my KTM's did the same.

If you free wheel in neutral towards a robot, the moment you stop, the revs drops a bit. Its as if the motor knows when the wheels are turning or not. It Drops the revs a bit when standing still, but when you start moving and pull the clutch in, the revs will be a bit higher idling, while wheels are turning.

Maybe yours, when you stop, it drops the revs too low and stalls?
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 29, 2019, 07:58:48 am
The video doesn't show, because its not so easy to hear and capture, but it also sometimes happens when I'm cruising at constant throttle. At times it just misses one or two firing cycles, other times complete stall. The momentum is usually enough to run-start the bike though.

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Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 29, 2019, 09:27:02 am
And just like that, I'm stranded. Video to follow...

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Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: sidetrack on May 29, 2019, 09:31:47 am
Some clips of what it does...


Must be irritating as hell !
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 29, 2019, 10:00:27 am
As the news spread, jokes started coming through thick and fast.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 29, 2019, 10:04:53 am
This morning I fitted the multimeter to the bars, just to figure out what the voltage levels are doing.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 29, 2019, 10:10:48 am
It was quite interesting and I don't know exactly how sensitive the ECU's are, but the voltages are roughly constant at 13.6V when I'm riding with throttle, but once I release the throttle and pull the clutch, the voltage jumps up to around 14.5V. Not sure if you can see it that clearly in the video. Any idea of why this would happen and whether this could be part of the issue?

That said, it should prevent the bike from starting again, like it did this morning.

The video also shows how it just dies while at speed and doesn't want to start again.


Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 29, 2019, 10:42:53 am
So, thanks to Mpandla for sharing this valuable resource: https://www.aberdeenbikers.co.uk/motorcycle-charging-system-diagnosis-checks/

Quote
Now on to testing the main charging function, the voltage output from the Regulator. Test the voltage with the bike running at fast idle, roughly between 2000 and 5000 rpm, to confirm if it is getting the correct amount of charge from the bike. With the Multimeter set to 20v DC place the meter leads across the Battery as before, if all is healthy you should be getting between 13.5-14.5 volts, an old or tired Battery will be around 13.2 – 14.8 volts if undercharging or overcharging but is of no great concern as of yet, but keep a close eye on things over time to make sure it does not deteriorate. Please note that these voltages will fluctuate depending on temperature and revs.

Rev the bike and the voltage should be at least in the 13’s at all engine rpm’s and go no higher than around 14.5v. If you are reading 15v or higher it is bad and means that the R/R is not regulating the extra voltage from the Stator and overcharging the Battery. This will start to boil the fluids inside the Battery dry and will eventually leave you stranded as the battery will not be able to hold a charge.

So looks like those voltages are within spec.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: JustBendIt on May 29, 2019, 11:08:12 am
My 2c - maybe it helps your cause and maybe not

I once had a 690 that ran kak - turned out it was sucking in air at the throttle body

check that the rubber boots and clamps are tight and properly sealed from

airbox to throttle body
and
throttle body to intake manifold on engine side
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on May 29, 2019, 12:00:25 pm
My 2c - maybe it helps your cause and maybe not

I once had a 690 that ran kak - turned out it was sucking in air at the throttle body

check that the rubber boots and clamps are tight and properly sealed from

airbox to throttle body
and
throttle body to intake manifold on engine side
This is a good tip and worth looking into :deal: :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: geopat on May 29, 2019, 12:35:41 pm
get it onto the open road and really wring it she should pull hard all the way past the redline the object is to see if the injector can cope with the increased fule load , any bogging at the higher revs will mean you are having injector issues that could be affecting your idle
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Jacobsroodt on May 30, 2019, 08:58:47 am
Regarding BoosterPlug installation:
Installation Tips

• On the 690 Enduro and the 690 SMC until 2016, the AIT sensor is located on the underside of the airbox.
• On 2017 and newer models, the AIT sensor is placed in the rear left hand side of the airbox.
• You can reach the sensor from the left hand side of the bike.
It is interesting that the AIT sensor is INSIDE the airbox. It should be outside with a probe sticking into the airbox.
The BoosterPlug temperature probe should be OUTSIDE the airbox, mounted towards the front of the bike to receive ambient air. Often heat soak increases the temp inside the airbox, leading to false readings.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 30, 2019, 10:03:32 am
I think this little white piece is the stock temperature sensor, just sticking to the outside of the air filter holder, but the actual plug connector sits inside the airbox.

Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 30, 2019, 10:05:12 am
The SM is notably different from the SMC and Enduro, as the tank is infront and the airbox is in the back, opposite to the Enduro and SMC.  :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Rough Rider on May 30, 2019, 11:41:56 am
The later 690 have a small inline fuel filter which is not visible as it's inside the hose, perhaps the SM has the same, and this tiny little filter is blocked.

https://www.amazon.com/KTM-LINE-FUEL-FILTER-78141013190/dp/B07G5DJGZY/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1544519056&sr=8-1&keywords=78141013190&linkCode=sl1&tag=johnhowe-20&linkId=587b8566d46d0827ee2816ef271c5d04&language=en_US
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 30, 2019, 10:40:13 pm
So the reason it fealt like I ran out of fuel is because I ran out of fuel. I was under the false illusion that the fuel gauge was working...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/533ff14c336dc2d1c3e152d0fe5cd800.jpg)

Note to self: trust nothing on this bike.

I have also found some other dodge wiring setups!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/83ce9861b4efc3442477fb3d163d7ff9.jpg)

And what seems as a crack in the intake to the throttle body...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/f906236b2faa7480b9000287d211f538.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on May 31, 2019, 10:47:57 am
Trying to figure out this wiring setup here. Following the wire, it does run down into where the gear selector sits, but there are other cables running in there too.

Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: geopat on June 01, 2019, 10:52:10 am
oh shit looks like someone went to town on that bike  good luck mate
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Amsterdam on June 04, 2019, 09:16:11 am
My 2c - maybe it helps your cause and maybe not

I once had a 690 that ran kak - turned out it was sucking in air at the throttle body

check that the rubber boots and clamps are tight and properly sealed from

airbox to throttle body
and
throttle body to intake manifold on engine side

An easy way to check this is when the bike is idling you just spray a bit of Quickstart at the throttle body.  If the revs increase then there is a leak.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on June 05, 2019, 09:25:46 am
OK, just a quick update here...

The fuel level sensor is a thermistor and apparently it keeps cool inside the liquid and then heats up when the fuel level drops below the sensor resulting in an increase in resistance. In other words, when submerged, it should read a small resistance and a high(ish) voltage output while removed from liquid, it reads roughly 1k Ohm and results in a low(er) voltage towards the output. New fuel sensor from KTM is R750, but I'm busy with a hack. More on that later...

I have removed the rollover sensor and bypassed it with the proposed resistors of 3.9k between Blue and Yellow/Green and 800 Ohm between Yellow/Green and Black as per this post. (https://katoomrider.wordpress.com/2016/11/23/ktm-990-rollover-sensor-bypass/)

I have removed the side stand switch and inserted the proposed 2.2k Ohm (https://advrider.com/f/threads/690-help-needed.1068440/) (some suggest 1.8k Ohm (https://advrider.com/f/threads/690-stand-censor-broken.1045618/#post-26219128), tbc) instead of just cable tying or heat shrinking the trigger to the pickup, because if the pickup is faulty, that solution won't solve the issue.

After some more digging, I found that this connector had nothing plugged it. After a bit of trolling online, it looks like the "purge valve", which leads me to believe that this bike has undergone a "canisterectomy", but it may have been done half-ass.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on June 05, 2019, 09:31:46 am
Now that this is said, any idea what this LightGreen/White wire is for? The wiring diagram shows Green/White on both the throttle stepper motor (towards EPT) and acceleration position sensor (towards ECU).
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Jacobsroodt on June 05, 2019, 10:04:05 am
Lyk my jy is kniediep hier in! Sterkte!
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on June 05, 2019, 11:16:52 am
:laughing4:

Close... One of the fuel lines was disconnected.

Have to admit that it wasn't me that fixed it. I used MellowJo's trailer to pick up the bike, so the bike was at his spot. They had people over Friday night, so I couldn't go and collect work there. Then I had a 1st birthday party this morning, followed by monthly groceries, so I haven't had time to go over there to tinker or investigate. Just as we got home at around 16h, he stopped at our place with the bike. His words "Sorry that I didn't wait for you to work on it".

I think he was worried about a) his Beemers picking up this KTM temperamental sickness, b) that he'd fall in love with this bike while it's there, c) the missus might have frowned about another pony in the stall or d) there may actually not physically have been any more space for another bike. Either way,  he wanted to get it out asap so the bike is at my place now and he can rest easy.

Come on, show them the video of the KTM on BMW Life support …  :imaposer:

Just a post to give credit where it is due.   :thumleft:



Thanks Dad!  :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on June 05, 2019, 11:21:45 am
Some more updates.

This is what the spark plug looked like...  :o   



And this is a video of somebody else with a similar scenario.  :xxbah:



I have replaced the spark plug cap with a new plug cap.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on June 07, 2019, 02:27:09 pm
For those wondering about the difference between the SM and SMC...  :deal:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/1lwttWgblI4cxUSpQc/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on July 26, 2019, 10:25:18 am
I finally managed to get some of my other home projects done, so I ordered the SAS block off plate and the TuneECU cable which will hopefully enable some more progress on this bike...

Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on July 26, 2019, 10:36:08 am
Quick update in general:

The SAS plugs were disconnected, so I actually just removed all the tubing and plugged the SAS for now. I'll disable that on the map once the TuneECU cable arrives.

I'm also in the process of collecting the correct resistors to plug into the roll over and sidestand sensors, disabling them both completely and essentially checking them off the list of potential issues.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Edgar on July 26, 2019, 12:04:31 pm
Jy het baie baie geduld, as dit ek was het ek die bike laaank reeds verkoop. Sterkte daar!  :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on July 26, 2019, 12:43:18 pm
Jy het baie baie geduld, as dit ek was het ek die bike laaank reeds verkoop. Sterkte daar!  :thumleft:

Dis lekker om 'n ander man se probleem op te los, want ek het niks om te verloor nie.  :ricky: 

Maar ek geniet dit om te probeer uitfigure, leer en dan ultimately fix.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on August 01, 2019, 02:38:46 pm
Another update:

Last Friday, I decided to ride the bike to work (Melkbosstrand to CBD, 30km) and it wen't OKish. The bike stalled maybe 3 - 4 times, but started almost immediately after so no real issue. On the way home, I decided to stop at KTM to get some input from them. They were very helpful and quickly plugged in the diagnostics to see what faults were coming up. After resetting all the historical faults, we started the motor and it died a few seconds later without any faults logged. Some more fiddling showed that the TPS settings were supposedly way out of range, so they reset that to within the proposed spec and voila... Nothing.  :xxbah: The bike didn't want to start at all.

After some more fidgeting, we finally got the bike running and I was keen to just jump on and get home, as it was after 4pm on a sunny Friday! I made it all the way to Lagoon beach before the fist stall, then to Woodbridge Island for the 2nd leg and it finally died at Paddocks. By that time, the battery ran out and I was stranded.  :dousing:

I parked the bike at Paddocks and got a lift home, collected again later that weekend and it's now back in the garage and I'm back to the drawing board.  :study:

PS. The intention of this post is not to reflect badly on KTM Cape Town (it's not their fault), I'm just frustrated with the situation.  :-\
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: geopat on August 09, 2019, 07:12:27 am
Are you 100 percent sure you are not having battery problems? Maybe a charging issue ? Low voltage will cause the bike to do funny things why was your battery dead by the time you got to Milner ton?
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: BuRP on August 11, 2019, 10:29:33 am
Love the determination to get this fixed!
Keep posting until you find it please,  :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on August 12, 2019, 09:00:13 am
Are you 100 percent sure you are not having battery problems? Maybe a charging issue ? Low voltage will cause the bike to do funny things why was your battery dead by the time you got to Milnerton?

Battery was dead from the number of times I had to swing the motor to get it started on the previous two stop-&-go's. And after recharging the battery at home, it started the bike just fine. Even after standing for a week, it started up again without issue.

Love the determination to get this fixed!
Keep posting until you find it please,  :thumleft:

Thanks, I have now ordered a new (2nd hand) TPS and EFI (75041031000 & 75041032000) controllers from ebay to eliminate them from my long list of potential causes.
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Welsh on August 12, 2019, 05:54:54 pm
I find it strange no faults showed up?  ::)
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Manic on August 13, 2019, 12:41:50 am
As hy die bike wil verkoop pm my eerste  :biggrin: :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: Archangel on August 13, 2019, 01:17:02 pm
Parts arrived at family in Germany and they're flying down over the weekend.  :deal:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on August 13, 2019, 01:51:26 pm
Ek hoop regtig jy kry die ding gesort :deal: :thumleft:
Title: Re: KTM 690 SM - Helping out a friend
Post by: MellowJo on August 19, 2019, 11:58:58 am
Parts arrived at family in Germany and they're flying down over the weekend.  :deal:

And now arrived at home, so did it work?