Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => General Bike Related Banter => Topic started by: sidetrack on April 07, 2020, 01:17:41 pm

Title: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: sidetrack on April 07, 2020, 01:17:41 pm
So I do know they built F1 engines but it seems also a lot of R&D for car companies. And there I always thought Toyota made their own bullet proof  motors  :peepwall:

Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Dorsland on April 07, 2020, 01:53:19 pm
Now we know why both Toyota and Yamaha are so ultra-reliable.  In the livestock industry, it's known as linebreeding.  The result is hybrid vigour.  :biggrin: :lol8:  Maybe we'll see a Yamayota soon?
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Vulcan on April 07, 2020, 02:03:47 pm
Yamaha created a 4,4 litre V8 for Volvo as well.  Nice and compact motor with decent grunt.  232kw.  I had a Volvo S80 with that motor - it was all wheel drive as well.  It kinda f*cked off and surprised many a performance saloon.  It sounded even better after I had the exhausts liberated.  Noble used a twin turbo version of that motor in one of its cars as well.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 07, 2020, 03:10:38 pm
Yamaha is a company with class.

You must view their range of top-quality musical instruments. :deal: :thumleft:

Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Altie7deLaan on April 07, 2020, 03:20:09 pm
Yamaha is a company with class.

You must view their range of top-quality musical instruments. :deal: :thumleft:

Hulle het nie die kitaar gespeel die laaste paar jare in motogp nie...... :pot:
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 07, 2020, 03:22:51 pm
Yamaha is a company with class.

You must view their range of top-quality musical instruments. :deal: :thumleft:

Hulle het nie die kitaar gespeel die laaste paar jare in motogp nie...... :pot:

Net die donnerse begrafnis-orrel. :eek7:
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Kortbroek on April 07, 2020, 03:24:36 pm
Yamaha is a company with class.

You must view their range of top-quality musical instruments. :deal: :thumleft:

Hulle het nie die kitaar gespeel die laaste paar jare in motogp nie...... :pot:

Net die donnerse begrafnis-orrel. :eek7:

Miskien het hulle juis te veel sit en kitaar speel en te min bike gery  :deal:
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Altie7deLaan on April 07, 2020, 03:25:06 pm
Yamaha is a company with class.

You must view their range of top-quality musical instruments. :deal: :thumleft:

Hulle het nie die kitaar gespeel die laaste paar jare in motogp nie...... :pot:

Net die donnerse begrafnis-orrel. :eek7:

 :spitcoffee:  :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer:
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 07, 2020, 03:28:51 pm
Yamaha is a company with class.

You must view their range of top-quality musical instruments. :deal: :thumleft:

Hulle het nie die kitaar gespeel die laaste paar jare in motogp nie...... :pot:

Net die donnerse begrafnis-orrel. :eek7:

Miskien het hulle juis te veel sit en kitaar speel en te min bike gery  :deal:

Hulle se mos n kitaar en ryswyn is nie goeie maats nie. :imaposer:
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Bwana on April 07, 2020, 06:12:03 pm
Apparently Toyota owns large shares in Yamaha (rumoured 25%) so there is a lot of shared Tech and even though Yamaha built the engines a lot of the Tech comes from Toyota itself. Most of Yamaha s larger 4 stroke outboards are actually Toyota engines re adapted by Yamaha. The same goes with Subaru and Toyota. Toyota is a massive Company. 
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Mapog on April 07, 2020, 06:40:12 pm
Owning 3.6% of a company doesnt really acccount to a large share?
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Bwana on April 07, 2020, 07:07:22 pm
Depends how the shares are distributed and how many shareholders. Yamaha and Toyota have worked together on many projects and Yamaha also manufactures some of Toyota's car engines.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Mapog on April 07, 2020, 08:32:42 pm
They indeed have, resulting in some of the greatest Toy engines from the mid 90s in Toys, especially Corrolas.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 08, 2020, 09:35:38 pm
They indeed have, resulting in some of the greatest Toy engines from the mid 90s in Toys, especially Corrolas.

Yes indeed, those multivalve RSI's were magnificent.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: TheBear on April 09, 2020, 08:27:02 am
Depends how the shares are distributed and how many shareholders. Yamaha and Toyota have worked together on many projects and Yamaha also manufactures some of Toyota's car engines.

There is however a marked difference between 3,6% ownership and the rumoured 25%.  You are correct on Yamaha / Toyota collaboration though.  Regardless of ownership, which in many cases is purely a financial figure, they have worked together on many projects, especially engine design and building over the years.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: TheBear on April 09, 2020, 08:32:16 am
They indeed have, resulting in some of the greatest Toy engines from the mid 90s in Toys, especially Corrolas.

Yes indeed, those multivalve RSI's were magnificent.

That they were.  It can be argued that during that era, the Yamaha / Toyota engine collaboration is what brought us multi-valve engines that really worked well and would eventually lead to their, almost everyday use.  Remember the Yamaha Genesis 5 valves per cylinder engine? 
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Odd Dog on April 09, 2020, 01:23:34 pm
Like this.  :)



Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: TheBear on April 09, 2020, 01:26:24 pm
Eggzackery like that!   :thumleft:
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Altie7deLaan on April 09, 2020, 01:34:24 pm
I had one of these,.....was `n lekker bike.

"The FZ750 is notable for several reasons, perhaps the most radical being the 5-valve cylinder head with a radial arrangement. This became something of a Yamaha trademark, and although disputed in recent years, it was argued that for a given lift, the 3 inlet valves flowed more effectively than conventional twin inlet valves. What was indisputable was that their light weight allowed for faster opening speeds, and softer valve springs, all contributing to theoretical increases in engine speed and thus power outputs. Whatever the scientific merits, the bikes were famous for their linear power delivery, and in 1985 it was still considered impressive to achieve 150mph from a 750 road machine. "



Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: sidetrack on April 09, 2020, 02:52:17 pm
Five valves really made a difference ? Think Yamaha dropped it later ? Too complex ?
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Bwana on April 09, 2020, 02:59:02 pm
Multi-Valve Engines had been around a long time Audi and Mitsubishi I think were the first with 5 Valves on twin cams mass produced. Toyota just as usual marketed better and made them more affordable. Those Yammy 5 valve bikes had a nice sound.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: IceCreamMan on April 09, 2020, 03:02:50 pm
Yamaha also make a lot of electric motors used in the bicycle industry...Giant electric bicycles are all yamaha motors i think.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 09, 2020, 05:28:03 pm
Five valves really made a difference ? Think Yamaha dropped it later ? Too complex ?

Yamaha actually stated in the early 80's, before launching the 1st 5-valve FZ, that they consider their tested 7 valve per cylinder the optimum, but that client self-service could become too complex.

Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: BuRP on April 09, 2020, 06:52:29 pm
Five valves really made a difference ? Think Yamaha dropped it later ? Too complex ?

Negligible gains not really offsetting the extra complexity & cost.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 09, 2020, 07:00:07 pm
Five valves really made a difference ? Think Yamaha dropped it later ? Too complex ?

Negligible gains not really offsetting the extra complexity & cost.

Exactly, and also why Yamaha is back to 4.

But in the 80's it was big stuff.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Odd Dog on April 11, 2020, 04:09:01 pm
The WR's also had a 5v/v engine.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: BFG on April 11, 2020, 10:43:42 pm
If I'm not mistaken Lexus went to Yamaha to design the exhaust for the LFA, not only for the the performance but to get the sound right.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: GeenSand on April 12, 2020, 07:14:20 am
Toyota own shares in Yamaha and vice versa. So they share some developments and costs.

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Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 12, 2020, 09:02:12 am
A company with the huge reliability tag of Toyota, and the best-selling one too, does not become so by hanging with losers.

By wisely associating withtop experts in the field, they achieve greatness.

When Toyota decided to go multivalve in the 80's, they did not re-invent the wheel. They simply got the leaders in that field to design their engines.

And it is no chance of luck that those RSI multivalve engines survived the severe testbenches of Kraaifontein, Boksburg, Klerksdorp, etc. :thumleft:
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Saddle Up on April 12, 2020, 09:21:11 am
If I'm not mistaken Lexus went to Yamaha to design the exhaust for the LFA, not only for the the performance but to get the sound right.

Did Yamaha not first manufacture the cylinder head and then ended up designing the enjin ?
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: mike gs on April 12, 2020, 11:19:04 am
They do a lot. Cylinder heads for Lexus. Built some complete motors for Ford in the past. Volvo V8's. Also did F1 motors for Zakspeed at a point.  Toyota is also looking at getting them to do the current F1 motor they supply.  As a matter of interest , Toyota also owns shares in Suzuki and Mazda.

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Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Offshore on April 12, 2020, 11:34:08 am
They do a lot. Cylinder heads for Lexus. Built some complete motors for Ford in the past. Volvo V8's. Also did F1 motors for Zakspeed at a point.  Toyota is also looking at getting them to do the current F1 motor they supply.  As a matter of interest , Toyota also owns shares in Suzuki and Mazda.

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Can you tell us what you mean by that?
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: mike gs on April 12, 2020, 01:11:50 pm
@offshore,you're correct my post is inaccurate. I read somewhere that Toyota has F1 aspirations again, and Yamaha may do the engine development

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Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Offshore on April 12, 2020, 01:58:25 pm
@Offshore,you're correct my post is inaccurate. I read somewhere that Toyota has F1 aspirations again, and Yamaha may do the engine development

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No Problem Mike. Whilst I agree that Yamaha makes reputable Products, I do not think they want to enter F1 any Time soon again. It was a disastrous attempt that I don't think they would to repeat. See the link below.

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-results/all-time-f1-engine-brand-ranking/
 
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: 2StrokeDan on April 12, 2020, 05:24:51 pm
@Offshore,you're correct my post is inaccurate. I read somewhere that Toyota has F1 aspirations again, and Yamaha may do the engine development

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No Problem Mike. Whilst I agree that Yamaha makes reputable Products, I do not think they want to enter F1 any Time soon again. It was a disastrous attempt that I don't think they would to repeat. See the link below.

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-results/all-time-f1-engine-brand-ranking/


While Yamaha "dappled" a little in F1, they were never going to put in the amount of effort that Renault, Ferarri, Merc is putting in. They do not have the resources.

Their F1 efforts have all been in collaboration with other teams/makers.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: BuRP on April 12, 2020, 06:13:25 pm
While Yamaha "dappled" a little in F1, they .................  do not have the resources.

And a pity that is, as they're at the forefront of the technology of performance 4stroke engines.
Mazda's similar but more on economical engines, surprisingly lean burning ones.
Oh well, post-Covid the world's markets will be c o m p l e t e l y different, let's see what will surprise us next  ;)
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Bensien on April 12, 2020, 07:14:24 pm
Just about every industry in Japan is part of eight large and a few smaller business conglomerates called keiretsus,which are structured horizontally and verticallly The horizontal members don’t necessarily have shares in each other, but have joint majority shareholders (usually a bank)  Toyota is part of the Mitsui keiretsu, that horizontally also includes Fuji industries and Toshiba Toyota’s vertical keiretsu includes Subaru, Diahatsu, Subaru, Hino as well as steel and petroleum companies. It is possible for outside companies to have shares in a member of a keiretsu, but it is seldom a significant percentage.

Yamaha is part of the Fuyo keirestsu that also includes Nissan and Hitachi. While the fellow members of  keirestus tend to give the other members of their group first priority and access to their technology, they also cooperate with members outside their group. One of the companies in Nissan’s vertical keiretsu supplies differentials to Subaru, and Yamaha supplies engine technology to Toyota.

The reason Yamaha is not in F1, is because they will compete with the Nissan/Renault alliance. It is possible that the Renault F1 engines have some Yamaha DNA

Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Offshore on April 12, 2020, 08:05:00 pm
Just about every industry in Japan is part of eight large and a few smaller business conglomerates called keiretsus,which are structured horizontally and verticallly The horizontal members don’t necessarily have shares in each other, but have joint majority shareholders (usually a bank)  Toyota is part of the Mitsui keiretsu, that horizontally also includes Fuji industries and Toshiba Toyota’s vertical keiretsu includes Subaru, Diahatsu, Subaru, Hino as well as steel and petroleum companies. It is possible for outside companies to have shares in a member of a keiretsu, but it is seldom a significant percentage.

Yamaha is part of the Fuyo keirestsu that also includes Nissan and Hitachi. While the fellow members of  keirestus tend to give the other members of their group first priority and access to their technology, they also cooperate with members outside their group. One of the companies in Nissan’s vertical keiretsu supplies differentials to Subaru, and Yamaha supplies engine technology to Toyota.

The reason Yamaha is not in F1, is because they will compete with the Nissan/Renault alliance. It is possible that the Renault F1 engines have some Yamaha DNA
Mercedes Benz is Part of the Renault, Nissan, Mitsubishi and they compete against each other. The Renault F1 Engines are developed by Renault with the Hybrid Part in Conjunction with Nissan, no Yamaha DNA.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Offshore on April 12, 2020, 08:09:00 pm
While Yamaha "dappled" a little in F1, they were never going to put in the amount of effort that Renault, Ferarri, Merc is putting in. They do not have the resources.

Sorry Dan, here is the real Answer from Wikipedia

Formula One
Yamaha as a Formula One engine manufacturer
Formula One World Championship career
First entry   1989 Brazilian Grand Prix
Last entry   1997 European Grand Prix
Races entered   130 (116 starts)
Chassis   Zakspeed, Brabham, Jordan, Tyrrell, Arrows
Constructors' Championships   0
Drivers'
Championships   0
Race victories   0
Podiums   2
Points   36
Pole positions   0
Fastest laps   0
Yamaha produced Formula One engines from 1989 to 1997, initially for the Zakspeed team, in 1991 for the Brabham BT60Y, in 1992 for the Jordan 192, from 1993 to 1996 for Tyrrell, and in 1997 for the Arrows A18. These never won a race, but drivers including Damon Hill, Ukyo Katayama, Mark Blundell and Mika Salo scored some acceptable results with them. However their engines were often unreliable and were usually regarded as not very powerful.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Bensien on April 12, 2020, 08:32:00 pm
Just about every industry in Japan is part of eight large and a few smaller business conglomerates called keiretsus,which are structured horizontally and verticallly The horizontal members don’t necessarily have shares in each other, but have joint majority shareholders (usually a bank)  Toyota is part of the Mitsui keiretsu, that horizontally also includes Fuji industries and Toshiba Toyota’s vertical keiretsu includes Subaru, Diahatsu, Subaru, Hino as well as steel and petroleum companies. It is possible for outside companies to have shares in a member of a keiretsu, but it is seldom a significant percentage.

Yamaha is part of the Fuyo keirestsu that also includes Nissan and Hitachi. While the fellow members of  keirestus tend to give the other members of their group first priority and access to their technology, they also cooperate with members outside their group. One of the companies in Nissan’s vertical keiretsu supplies differentials to Subaru, and Yamaha supplies engine technology to Toyota.

The reason Yamaha is not in F1, is because they will compete with the Nissan/Renault alliance. It is possible that the Renault F1 engines have some Yamaha DNA
Mercedes Benz is Part of the Renault, Nissan, Mitsubishi and they compete against each other. The Renault F1 Engines are developed by Renault with the Hybrid Part in Conjunction with Nissan, no Yamaha DNA.

Mercedes is not part of the Nissan/Renault alliance. They have a joint venture and technology exchange agreement but no direct shareholding in each other
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Offshore on April 12, 2020, 08:37:36 pm
https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/23859/Renault-Nissan-Daimler-cooperation

The two groups also announced an equity exchange that will give the Renault-Nissan Alliance a 3.1 percent stake in Daimler and Daimler a 3.1% in Renault and a 3.1% stake in Nissan.

Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: Bensien on April 13, 2020, 06:09:21 pm
https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/23859/Renault-Nissan-Daimler-cooperation

The two groups also announced an equity exchange that will give the Renault-Nissan Alliance a 3.1 percent stake in Daimler and Daimler a 3.1% in Renault and a 3.1% stake in Nissan.

I stand corrected, but the equity exchange was symbolic.Unlike the Nissan/Renault alliance, neither company has any influence on the other at board level or has to account to the other for any decisions that do not affect the joint venture projects.
Title: Re: Yamaha, I never knew
Post by: TheBear on April 15, 2020, 09:12:46 am
Toyota own shares in Yamaha and vice versa. So they share some developments and costs.

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The shares are minimal.  Something like 3%.  They, like so many other companies in the world, share development, etc. because it makes financial sense.  In many cases, there is no ownership "marriage" between the companies at all.  They just agree to sell / buy an engine or gearbox, or whatever makes sense for a specific model as it makes more financial sense.  There are some interesting examples of this.

- Borg Warner gearboxes in Mahindra 4x4s
- Mercedes engines in some Aston Martins
- Mazda BT50 used to be a Ford, now an Isuzu.