Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => General Bike Related Banter => Topic started by: BullFrog on September 23, 2020, 11:32:31 am

Title: Pushing left to turn right?
Post by: BullFrog on September 23, 2020, 11:32:31 am
I have often wondered what the speed is that the dynamics change when cornering going slow (turning left to turn left) and when it actually changes that the bars need to be pushed right to turn left?

Educate me, please. 
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Roxtar on September 23, 2020, 11:38:59 am
The moment you feel you gonna fall over you know you going too slow.... :biggrin:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Welsh on September 23, 2020, 11:42:03 am
Its at that speed where loading the outside peg doesn't work anymore.  :sip:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Kelevra on September 23, 2020, 11:46:57 am
I have often wondered what the speed is that the dynamics change when cornering going slow (turning left to turn left) and when it actually changes that the bars need to be pushed right to turn left?

Educate me, please.

That is the same thing, going fast you push right to turn right. But right is right and not wrong.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: ETS on September 23, 2020, 11:47:40 am
Are you standing or sitting? What tyre pressure and oil? wearing a neck brace or not? :imaposer: :imaposer:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on September 23, 2020, 11:47:50 am
I dont know many people who push right to turn left unless they are on a track counter steering at speed. I find that even if I am powersliding I'm not consciously thinking about pushing right to turn left on the bars although it may be the case.

I fund its just a case of point and shoot as you are going to go in the direction you are pointing.

For me the dynamics just change when the back steps out .. its not necessarily speed related but more power related if Im understanding you correctly.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Welsh on September 23, 2020, 11:50:19 am
I dont know many people who push right to turn left unless they are on a track counter steering at speed. I find that even if I am powersliding I'm not consciously thinking about pushing right to turn left on the bars although it may be the case.

I fund its just a case of point and shoot as you are going to go in the direction you are pointing.

For me the dynamics just change when the back steps out .. its not necessarily speed related but more power related if Im understanding you correctly.

You will be doing it intuitively, whether you realise it or not.  8)
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: iamgigglz on September 23, 2020, 11:52:57 am
Agree with Welsh. I find it works at all speeds and is second nature.

Turn the bars left, bike bike starts to fall to the right, turn the bars right to compensate, win.
All it's doing is getting the bike to lean over at a faster rate than you would be able to achieve by shifting your weight. As long as the bike is moving at all, it'll work.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: BullFrog on September 23, 2020, 11:54:25 am
I am talking about going from walking speed to a point where the dynamics change...

There must be a 'terminal speed' where this changes.

I am not talking about cornering at 240 km's an hour.... Just where that changes...

If you know what I mean...
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS on September 23, 2020, 11:54:40 am
I have never understood this push handlebars theory? Guess that's why I am such a crappy rider!! ;D
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: GhostSixFour on September 23, 2020, 11:55:28 am
If I remember correctly from the BMW training, they said it was around 25km/h.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Blikkies1 on September 23, 2020, 11:55:32 am
Never given it much thought, I don't think there's a 'breaking point' that's speed related, I've only found myself doing it when the rear loses traction, I think counter steering literally counters an equal amount of traction loss in the rear, it's instinctive - you would lose it if you thought about it in terms of speed.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: BullFrog on September 23, 2020, 11:56:49 am
If I remember correctly from the BMW training, they said it was around 25km/h.

And this is the kind of answer I was waiting for!!
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Kelevra on September 23, 2020, 12:04:18 pm
If I remember correctly from the BMW training, they said it was around 25km/h.

And this is the kind of answer I was waiting for!!

The physics is complicated, gyroscopic forces and all that, weight is one of them and we all know BMW's have a similar weight than the earth so I would guess 9.8m/s for BMW's 
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: mox on September 23, 2020, 12:43:46 pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering#:~:text=Countersteering%20is%20used%20by%20single,left%20to%20turn%20right%22).&text=The%20rider's%20action%20of%20countersteering,%22giving%20a%20steering%20command%22.

Read all about it but don't thinks about it too much  :biggrin:

There are formulas for you to play with.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 01:04:08 pm
Take your left hand off the bars, and by steering with the right only, execute some turns.

Quickest to demonstrate this principle of pushing/pulling the bars to turn in opposite directions.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on September 23, 2020, 01:12:12 pm
If I remember correctly from the BMW training, they said it was around 25km/h.

And this is the kind of answer I was waiting for!!

But it could be 100% wrong.. it would depend on the terrain and the power delivery not to mention the kind of bike, weight etc.

To blanket every scenario with a 25km/h answer is just not going to work.

Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Roadhawg on September 23, 2020, 01:30:21 pm
I have often wondered what the speed is that the dynamics change when cornering going slow (turning left to turn left) and when it actually changes that the bars need to be pushed right to turn left?

Educate me, please.

In my experience the speed at which counter steering takes over depends on the rake and trail of the bike.  More rake = higher speed before you're REALLY countersteering.  It's still very low though, like fast walking pace at most.


Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: iamgigglz on September 23, 2020, 01:30:49 pm
Ride your bike as slowly as you can and turn the handlebars to the left without leaning left. You'll fall to the right.

It works at any speed down to (almost) zero.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Gérrard on September 23, 2020, 01:48:26 pm
And then try riding a sidecar. Everything you thought you had learned goes for a ball of shit  :imaposer:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 01:49:31 pm
I have never understood this push handlebars theory? Guess that's why I am such a crappy rider!! ;D

Chris, with the motorcycle upright, you have to turn left, and when the bike actually "falls over" to the right, you steer into the turn to keep the bike upright.

On a motorcycle, any turn is impossible unless you first and momentarily turn the opposite way.

But it is done without thinking about it, and you learn this from your bicycle days.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 01:51:02 pm
And then try riding a sidecar. Everything you thought you had learned goes for a ball of shit  :imaposer:

Good example Gerrard, with a sidecar everything turns upside down, and with the Visarende, sometimes practically. :pot:

Or no, it was Woody that landed in the bush, not so?
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Gérrard on September 23, 2020, 01:55:26 pm
And then try riding a sidecar. Everything you thought you had learned goes for a ball of shit  :imaposer:

Good example Gerrard, with a sidecar everything turns upside down, and with the Visarende, sometimes practically. :pot:

Or no, it was Woody that landed in the bush, not so?

That was Woody, when he thought left was right but it was wrong and when he pushed right it was right but he should have gone left. Or something  :lol8:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 01:58:49 pm
And then try riding a sidecar. Everything you thought you had learned goes for a ball of shit  :imaposer:

Good example Gerrard, with a sidecar everything turns upside down, and with the Visarende, sometimes practically. :pot:

Or no, it was Woody that landed in the bush, not so?

That was Woody, when he thought left was right but it was wrong and when he pushed right it was right but he should have gone left. Or something  :lol8:

 :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer: Riversdal Woody, but it sounds more like Woody Allen.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Spectaitor on September 23, 2020, 02:28:20 pm
Counter steering is an added step, it does not replace turning your wheel towards the direction you are going.
You will still always point your front wheel in the direction you are going.

In a parking lot doing a U-turn you would even use counter-steering the tiniest bit
to get the bike into a comfortable lean unless you were paddling with your feet.

Imagine approaching a green robot at speed and wanting to turn left, you will first countersteer to get
your bike into a suitable lean (by using your front wheel's rake to set the contact points of camber) so that
the straight moving force is directed into the suspension straight down where it can push against the ground
and then turn your bars to the left to still point your wheel in the right direction.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 04:14:33 pm
Counter steering is an added step, it does not replace turning your wheel towards the direction you are going.
You will still always point your front wheel in the direction you are going.

In a parking lot doing a U-turn you would even use counter-steering the tiniest bit
to get the bike into a comfortable lean unless you were paddling with your feet.

Imagine approaching a green robot at speed and wanting to turn left, you will first countersteer to get
your bike into a suitable lean (by using your front wheel's rake to set the contact points of camber) so that
the straight moving force is directed into the suspension straight down where it can push against the ground
and then turn your bars to the left to still point your wheel in the right direction.

Absolutely, counter-steering is only to get the bike into a lean, which is needed for a two wheeler to turn.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Cracker on September 23, 2020, 04:20:11 pm
I never knew how thick I was until I read this thread.

I struggle a bit with quantum mechanics but you lot take it to a whole new level.

No wonder Hawking had a 4-wheeler.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: mox on September 23, 2020, 04:20:18 pm
Pushing left to right right or right to left left is often whats needed to come or go .... or so she says  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 04:27:56 pm
I never knew how thick I was until I read this thread.

I struggle a bit with quantum mechanics but you lot take it to a whole new level.

No wonder Hawking had a 4-wheeler.

I cannot remember all that much of quantum mechanics anymore...... :pot:

Sorry, it's the Hi-Ace mechanics I have mostly forgotten.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Tiger8 on September 23, 2020, 04:29:20 pm
The rate of turn is not at a fixed speed, there are factors such as: Front Wheel Size; Tyre width, Tyre pressure, Rake and Trail of the front forks, which all contribute to the rate of turn. An Adventure bike turns in more slowly than a Sport bike and differs to a cruiser.

When doing obstacle avoidance on tar, during a course many years ago, the effectiveness of the "Push to Turn" principle was demonstrated, pull to turn can be disastrous. To lean into a corner, you need to push on the handlebar slightly, as you force the wheel to run on a smaller circumference than the centre of the wheel, which initiates the turn.

This is an action we as riders are mostly not even aware of, but is part of our subconscious riding technique, often newer riders are surprised to learn that they are even doing it.  :thumleft:




(Apparently some seasoned vets too)  :lol8: :lol8:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: jaybiker on September 23, 2020, 05:07:14 pm
We all do it unconsciously. We did it from the first time we rode a two wheeled bicycle.

Which proves that we don't know what the fuck we're doing or why we're doing it, but we do it anyway.

Bit like bureaucrats and politicians really. :deal:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: BuRP on September 23, 2020, 06:15:46 pm
That is the same thing, going fast you push right to turn right. But right is right and not wrong.

Ya wel no ma fine, if you go left, what then?
You push left and you go left, which is right?

Plies edjukaat me, there can only be one right, right?  :P
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: BuRP on September 23, 2020, 06:18:18 pm
I never knew how thick I was until I read this thread.

Aww, that's unfair, I bet loadsa peeps have told you already!
But eh, you don't listen do you?  :lol8:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Jughead on September 23, 2020, 06:39:44 pm
16 km/h
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Welsh on September 23, 2020, 07:09:05 pm
16 km/h

Because our Lord said, Let it be 10mph.  :peepwall:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Colaco on September 23, 2020, 07:13:21 pm
As soon as your feet leave the ground.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Dux on September 23, 2020, 07:56:10 pm
It varies from bike to bike but generally below about 25 to 40 kmh is pro steer , then counter steering kicks in  and then oddly enough at very high speeds of about 400 plus it reverts back to pro steer
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 08:12:49 pm
Regardless the speed, on a motorcycle it is always needed to countersteer into turns, as it is the only way to steer a vehicle with 2 wheels inline.

If you try and "pro-steer", the motorcycle will always fall over to the other side. It's just how two-wheelers work.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Gérrard on September 23, 2020, 08:13:27 pm
What if you stand up and the bike's CoG changes ?
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 23, 2020, 09:01:09 pm
What if you stand up and the bike's CoG changes ?

This is a grey area....... :thumleft:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Welsh on September 24, 2020, 08:08:38 am
It varies from bike to bike but generally below about 25 to 40 kmh is pro steer , then counter steering kicks in  and then oddly enough at very high speeds of about 400 plus it reverts back to pro steer

I don't think my 1150 will get there Dux.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Dux on September 24, 2020, 08:41:04 am
It varies from bike to bike but generally below about 25 to 40 kmh is pro steer , then counter steering kicks in  and then oddly enough at very high speeds of about 400 plus it reverts back to pro steer

I don't think my 1150 will get there Dux.  :biggrin:

Hey , I did that on my RZ50 , with a pillion  :imaposer: :imaposer:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Cracker on September 24, 2020, 01:07:13 pm
Regardless the speed, on a motorcycle it is always needed to countersteer into turns, as it is the only way to steer a vehicle with 2 wheels inline.

If you try and "pro-steer", the motorcycle will always fall over to the other side. It's just how two-wheelers work.

Yep, trying to steer like a pro is what normally puts me on the ground.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 24, 2020, 06:50:03 pm
Regardless the speed, on a motorcycle it is always needed to countersteer into turns, as it is the only way to steer a vehicle with 2 wheels inline.

If you try and "pro-steer", the motorcycle will always fall over to the other side. It's just how two-wheelers work.

Yep, trying to steer like a pro is what normally puts me on the ground.

 :imaposer:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: Kamanya on September 24, 2020, 07:59:12 pm
Just leaving this here...

Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: 2StrokeDan on September 25, 2020, 07:20:41 am
Just leaving this here...



The example of the little bicycle with trailing wheels illustrates that counter-steering is in effect from the slowest speeds. Good video.
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: BullFrog on September 25, 2020, 08:57:28 am
What if you stand up and the bike's CoG changes ?

Ask Captain Piles....  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Pushing left to right right?
Post by: ETS on September 25, 2020, 10:53:37 am
What speed do you find it happening?