Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => General Bike Related Banter => Topic started by: Ventana on October 22, 2020, 10:19:48 am

Title: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Ventana on October 22, 2020, 10:19:48 am
I loved my F800 Adventure and after it was stolen I followed the herd and felt I needed a BIG bike so I got an Africa Twin Adventure Sport.  It's huge.  So now I have an itch to go back to the middleweights.  SWAMBO and I spend plenty time doing the pillion thing - so pillion comfort is essential - and by the looks of it this scratches the T7 and the KTM790 (or am I wrong?) which leaves the F850 Adventure, base Africa Twin, or maybe the Tiger 900?

Shopping paralysis.....
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on October 22, 2020, 10:26:58 am
Im going for the base Twin.. ticks every box I have. Its a bike I just have to get in my garage,

Ive been looking for one, not in any rush but if the opportunity comes ill grab it.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: chicco on October 22, 2020, 11:02:17 am
New KTM 890 will be available soon.  :thumleft:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: BuRP on October 22, 2020, 11:12:04 am
he KTM790 (or am I wrong?)

I would say you are - and, the 890 is exactly the same save for some horses.
It depends how fast you want to pillion, but the 790 is waayy faster than an 800 - and 'off' it's a different league altogether.
Go test one and convince yourself!  :thumleft:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: peteb on October 22, 2020, 11:20:24 am
New KTM 890 will be available soon.  :thumleft:
Also have a similar request, pillion will accompany me on a fair bit of the bikes' trips. The new 'standard' 890 seems to have better torque figures, which will make it better for 2 up riding. Also the shock gets a 'hand' preload adjuster now, also good for compensating for a pillion, and rebound adjustment (but no compression). Such a pity they didn't upgrade the forks.
Wonder what the price will be relative to the Norden? That could also be a long wait....Q3 2021 for international release I'm told, possibly later for SA. But it will have 'decent' shocks and fork (and styling!), whilst still retaining the low seat height and nice pillion seat. Decisions decisions.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: BuRP on October 22, 2020, 11:30:58 am
Wonder what the price will be relative to the Norden?

The Norden will have better suspenders and a quite different (higher..) price - it's a Husky you see, white is more exclusive than orange in this regard.
Looks better also  ;)
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: bud500 on October 22, 2020, 11:33:18 am
There's a difference between middleweight and middle capacity. So are you talking actual bike weight or engine capacity? Because there's a bit of a difference in weight of the bikes mentioned...
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Noneking on October 22, 2020, 11:39:12 am
My 790 is not comfortable with pillion. More than enough power etc, but not the ideal bike for the application. I suspect T7 similar......850 Beemer surprised me, but it is is quite a big, heavy bike.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: peteb on October 22, 2020, 11:43:27 am
Wonder what the price will be relative to the Norden?

The Norden will have better suspenders and a quite different (higher..) price - it's a Husky you see, white is more exclusive than orange in this regard.
Looks better also  ;)
From the info I have the Norden will be priced between the 890 and 890R, in Europe anyway (don't know what that means for SA?) Seat height will also be positioned between the two, but suspenders will be 48mm in front, remote rezzy shock at the back, both with full adjustment (like the R), travel shorter than the R, also less ground clearance. And seat like the standard 890 for pillion.
The only things which might tempt me into a standard right now is the availability soon, and the fact that I'm a little concerned about Husky backup in KZN. But not a fan of the KTM styling (mantis headlight and huge pointy shrouds) and the suspension, though I quite like the new grey colour scheme.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Ventana on October 22, 2020, 11:53:44 am
There's a difference between middleweight and middle capacity. So are you talking actual bike weight or engine capacity? Because there's a bit of a difference in weight of the bikes mentioned...

Hear what you're saying - I guess the difference is significant....the bikes listed are the ones on the shopping list - all Adventure Bikes should be classified as heavyweights I suppose.... ;) :)
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: sidetrack on October 22, 2020, 12:02:54 pm
When I hear middleweight I still think 650 single and 150kg  :-\
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on October 22, 2020, 12:09:17 pm
When I hear middleweight I still think 650 single and 150kg  :-\
+1 :thumleft:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Lord Knormoer on October 22, 2020, 12:29:04 pm
When I hear middleweight I still think 650 single and 150kg  :-\
The mention of pillion is the primary parameter to consider, most smaller bikes are not pillion friendly.

My advice would be to go ride the bikes on your shopping list with pillion, she will tell you real quick if it works or not. Factors not important for the rider can completely change the pillion experience. This would include seat comfort, seat height relative to rider, screen size etc.

To illustrate my point, my wife loves to pillion on a 1200 GS bit less so on the GSA. The relative seat height on the GSA means she stares into the back of my head while on the 1200 she could see over me. Surprisingly, she hates the 1600 GTL because the seat is too high which means she experiences severe wind buffeting at higher speeds.

This would be different from person to person based on their preference, height etc.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: 2StrokeDan on October 22, 2020, 12:51:29 pm
When I hear middleweight I still think 650 single and 150kg  :-\

This is true. Heavyweights, in my opinion, goes from 200KG up.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Roxtar on October 22, 2020, 12:53:20 pm
Get a 990....all the speed, all the comfort and all the joy :thumleft:

My friend had his F800GS stolen... replaced it with a 3oth Anniv.Edition 990 a few years back... still thanks the thieves for doing him a favour... ;) :lol8:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on October 22, 2020, 01:05:18 pm
I see the Sport is 238 kg wet, so anything lighter would be better if the weight is the problem.
I'd look at a KTM 1090.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: sidetrack on October 22, 2020, 01:09:06 pm
When I hear middleweight I still think 650 single and 150kg  :-\

This is true. Heavyweights, in my opinion, goes from 200KG up.
Only the manufacturers now fooling us into believing a 790 is a middle weight to create more categories and models
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: roxenz on October 22, 2020, 01:21:54 pm
When I hear middleweight I still think 650 single and 150kg  :-\
+1 :thumleft:
Amen. The 800 class are heavyweight bikes. The litre+ class are behemoths (or pigs), basically tourers with veldskoene. I think of middleweight as the old 650s, the KTM 500, DRZ400, etc. The T7 seems on the heavy side of a lightheavyweight.

Pillion ability doesn't affect the weigh classification, although there is some correlation between weight and pillion ability. Anyway, even a middleweight bike becomes a heavyweight with pillion and luggage, so if you want to pillion in comfort, just get a behemoth.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Spectaitor on October 22, 2020, 01:22:33 pm
I see the Sport is 238 kg wet, so anything lighter would be better if the weight is the problem.
I'd look at a KTM 1090.
1090 sits at around that weight too so then you're just looking at different ergonomics
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Vintage_Mania on October 22, 2020, 01:28:21 pm
 :sip:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Clockwork Orange on October 22, 2020, 01:42:56 pm

[/quote]
The mention of pillion is the primary parameter to consider, most smaller bikes are not pillion friendly.

My advice would be to go ride the bikes on your shopping list with pillion, she will tell you real quick if it works or not. Factors not important for the rider can completely change the pillion experience. This would include seat comfort, seat height relative to rider, screen size etc.


[/quote]
Spot on :thumleft:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on October 22, 2020, 01:57:46 pm
I see the Sport is 238 kg wet, so anything lighter would be better if the weight is the problem.
I'd look at a KTM 1090.
1090 sits at around that weight too so then you're just looking at different ergonomics
207 I think the 1090 is dunno if it's wet or dry though.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Spectaitor on October 22, 2020, 02:32:04 pm
I raise you real life.
Granted there are panniers on the back but you'll get an idea.

(https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IqJBBkUZ7WsHaD57eUVgBgBaet1dOE7q/view?usp=sharing)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IqJBBkUZ7WsHaD57eUVgBgBaet1dOE7q/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IqJBBkUZ7WsHaD57eUVgBgBaet1dOE7q/view?usp=sharing)

(https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ig7Y71rUP3aFHRwbMtPnNDyHMVelzCEq/view?usp=sharing)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ig7Y71rUP3aFHRwbMtPnNDyHMVelzCEq/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ig7Y71rUP3aFHRwbMtPnNDyHMVelzCEq/view?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Roadhawg on October 22, 2020, 04:00:45 pm
I see the Sport is 238 kg wet, so anything lighter would be better if the weight is the problem.
I'd look at a KTM 1090.
1090 sits at around that weight too so then you're just looking at different ergonomics
207 I think the 1090 is dunno if it's wet or dry though.

That's Dry.


Hell the 1290 is 240 FULL of fuel :biggrin:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Ventana on October 22, 2020, 06:55:47 pm
So the 1090 is the one bike we have already tested (hence it's not an option in the OP) and Mrs felt like she was on the back of a superbike, ......on the other hand I absolutely LOVED it (but that counts for zilch anyway)

Sent from my SM-A750F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: XRRX on October 22, 2020, 11:20:28 pm
Also loved my 800 Adv, and it wasn't stolen...
Against all odds I eventually bought a F850GS - cause of "value for money"!
What a revelation - all I'm going to say... :pot:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Grumpleton on October 23, 2020, 08:43:53 am
difficult to give an answer , but the most important factor is size of rider and pillion , my wife fits perfectly on my 950 at 68 kg and me at 95kg but my sister in law at 102kg with my brother at 112 kg dont quite make it comfortable, just saying  :thumleft:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Ventana on October 23, 2020, 09:30:13 am
Thanks for the insights and one thing I really enjoy with this forum is that everyone has an opinion.  I really knew before I even started this thread that ultimately the answer is - go ride them all and let her decide.....(well, she needs to believe that....)  :peepwall:

However there are some lessons here....

1. Does Middle-Weight mean Mid-Capacity?  Probably not.  So moving to a lower capacity does not assume a lower weight.  If you are really looking for lower weight you need to move your focus from Adventure bikes to the Dual-Sport category....and I think this is where manufacturers are going to shift their focus over the next few years.
2. Hence, does the move to a lower capacity mean the bike is more manageable? Probably not?  I've heard that the 1200GS is arguably easier to handle offroad than the 850GS just because of where it carries its weight...
3. The size of rider and pillion is critical.  I have good friends of mine where both are, lets say, 'generous-of-girth'.  Their ideal Adventure bike is very different to mine...
4. What riding are you intending on doing?  Typically with a pillion you're doing comfortable tar and/or 'easy' dirt roads and maybe long hours in the saddle.  For playing in the technical stuff your focus changes and that's cool.
5.  Don't be in a rush.  There are a LOT of alternatives on offer...
6. Bottom line is go ride them all - our opinions of the 'best' bike are as varied as the number of bikes on offer.  Having different opinions, perspectives and points of view is what makes the Wilddog Forum such a great community....I'm not sure if we'll ever see the unicorn but that just means we keep conversations like this turning and turning.....
7. Maybe Kawasaki is about to unveil another option on 23 November......
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Bikerboer1973 on October 23, 2020, 09:36:21 am
I loved my F800 Adventure and after it was stolen I followed the herd and felt I needed a BIG bike so I got an Africa Twin Adventure Sport.  It's huge.  So now I have an itch to go back to the middleweights.  SWAMBO and I spend plenty time doing the pillion thing - so pillion comfort is essential - and by the looks of it this scratches the T7 and the KTM790 (or am I wrong?) which leaves the F850 Adventure, base Africa Twin, or maybe the Tiger 900?

Shopping paralysis.....

What is the weight difference between the AT Basic and Adventure Sports? Is the AT AS really to big for you and is your wife uncomfortable on it, the F850 adventure is not that small. Just asking maybe it is best to just use what you have for now and wait for your "perfect" pillion bike.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Ventana on October 23, 2020, 09:54:23 am
I loved my F800 Adventure and after it was stolen I followed the herd and felt I needed a BIG bike so I got an Africa Twin Adventure Sport.  It's huge.  So now I have an itch to go back to the middleweights.  SWAMBO and I spend plenty time doing the pillion thing - so pillion comfort is essential - and by the looks of it this scratches the T7 and the KTM790 (or am I wrong?) which leaves the F850 Adventure, base Africa Twin, or maybe the Tiger 900?

Shopping paralysis.....

What is the weight difference between the AT Basic and Adventure Sports? Is the AT AS really to big for you and is your wife uncomfortable on it, the F850 adventure is not that small. Just asking maybe it is best to just use what you have for now and wait for your "perfect" pillion bike.

The challenge with the 2018/9 Adventure Sport is not actually the weight but rather the height.  Its a VERY tall bike.  For long distance travel its absolutely fantastic - very, very comfortable and enough power to bring a smile to your face.  Honda, to their credit, recognised that they were limiting their customer base to the taller segment of the population and have corrected this with the new 1100 which is quite a bit shorter.  So although I love the bike I own I am always looking for the unicorn....
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: Lord Knormoer on October 23, 2020, 10:29:50 am
I loved my F800 Adventure and after it was stolen I followed the herd and felt I needed a BIG bike so I got an Africa Twin Adventure Sport.  It's huge.  So now I have an itch to go back to the middleweights.  SWAMBO and I spend plenty time doing the pillion thing - so pillion comfort is essential - and by the looks of it this scratches the T7 and the KTM790 (or am I wrong?) which leaves the F850 Adventure, base Africa Twin, or maybe the Tiger 900?

Shopping paralysis.....

What is the weight difference between the AT Basic and Adventure Sports? Is the AT AS really to big for you and is your wife uncomfortable on it, the F850 adventure is not that small. Just asking maybe it is best to just use what you have for now and wait for your "perfect" pillion bike.

The challenge with the 2018/9 Adventure Sport is not actually the weight but rather the height.  Its a VERY tall bike.  For long distance travel its absolutely fantastic - very, very comfortable and enough power to bring a smile to your face.  Honda, to their credit, recognised that they were limiting their customer base to the taller segment of the population and have corrected this with the new 1100 which is quite a bit shorter.  So although I love the bike I own I am always looking for the unicorn....
Very good point. Tall bikes are generally not great pillion bikes. Not because of the bike’s ability but rather the additional strain on the rider to balance at low speed with luggage that moves...

Although I currently have the 1200GSA which is a little taller (I can only ground the balls of my feet) I found the 1200GS better for pillion because I could plant both feet firmly. The bigger bikes are also generally more stable with luggage and pillion and offer more comfortable seating and ergonomics for the passenger.

It remains a balancing act. I almost never ride solo anymore and am now  considering swopping the GSA for a GS.

PS: While in the UK I had the 800GSA and although it was OK most of the time I struggled at low speeds with pillion. It was just a fraction too tall for me.
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: XRRX on October 23, 2020, 10:36:19 am
I know some say the Boxers are better off road cause of the cog thing - but personally I don't agree....
What I can tell you definelately - it is way easier to man handle the Red 850 in this pic around the garage, than the 1250Adv!! :o
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on October 23, 2020, 10:37:48 am
it is way easier to man handle the Red 850 in this pic around the garage, than the 1250Adv!!

 :laughing4: :laughing4: :laughing4:
Title: Re: So which middleweight?.....
Post by: HAMSTER on October 23, 2020, 10:56:58 am
The standard AT seat fits perfectly on the ATAS.
It lowers the seat height to acceptable and still fits in the top seat slot on the bike.
Just a option  :thumleft: