Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => General Bike Related Banter => Topic started by: JourneySA on December 01, 2020, 09:23:38 am

Title: Emergency procedures
Post by: JourneySA on December 01, 2020, 09:23:38 am
What should you do if you are the first person at the scene of an accident?

A guy sped by me on my ride to work this morning, right into a potentially sketchy situation & I realised that I have no idea what to do if something should happen?

What number do you call, do you just keep the injured person calm etc?

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Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Leo on December 01, 2020, 09:30:17 am
112 on your cell should get you through to emergency services
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Dwerg on December 01, 2020, 09:34:21 am
Speaking as someone who had an accident, a tremendous help to me was just the first on scene people asking emergency (family) numbers and calling them, calling ambulance, relaying my medical aid info to responders and just asking me about myself and chatting to me to distract me until the ambulance arrived. It must have been a little distressing to them seeing me folded like a pretzel but still keeping calm and not freak me out even more. Well mind you, the lady who kept putting her hands on me praying profusely did freak me out a little. I know she meant well but it made me think I was dying for sure  :imaposer:
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: DavidMorrisXp on December 01, 2020, 09:36:46 am
112 on your cell should get you through to emergency services

That number works even if the phone is locked
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Fuzzy Muzzy on December 01, 2020, 09:59:12 am
and take photos.. I came across a rider and pillion who went onto the back of a car when it changed lanes.

I took plenty accident photos and their details, it helped with their insurance and accurate accident reporting.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: m0lt3n on December 01, 2020, 10:03:22 am
1. tell someone to call for help
2. make area safe and/or tell someone to (regulate traffic or such)
3. stabilize the guy that fell, start by asking his name and getting permission to help him


or that is what we learn in first aid
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Lord Knormoer on December 01, 2020, 10:15:28 am
and take photos.. I came across a rider and pillion who went onto the back of a car when it changed lanes.

I took plenty accident photos and their details, it helped with their insurance and accurate accident reporting.
Taking pictures serves more than one purpose. Apart from recording the details of the accident with specific focus on:
1. the vehicles involved and their position before being moved during the ensuing chaos
2. license plates and other details because some parties have a tendency to disappear when no-one’s watching

It also captures the exact time which you may be asked for by the emergency response team and could have significant impact on the treatment.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Oubones on December 01, 2020, 10:33:11 am
As mentioned above, but just to be safe, you need to ask the person permission first before helping him even though we have a good samaritan clause protecting you in SA. I suggest doing a video recording of the scene and the injured including getting the patients permission on that short recording. Not to be done if the patient is busy dying!
Remember not to move the patient if any neck or back injuries are suspected.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Black_Hawk on December 01, 2020, 10:35:19 am
All of the above mentioned is very true.

But most important of all is to make sure that the accident scene is is secure and that the patient (and you) are safe from potential danger like oncoming traffic, spilled fuel etc.

I went to a FIrst Person on scene course and this is what they told us.....

It you are the first person on an accident scene, park your bike/vehicle in such a way that it will protect you and the injured from possible danger like oncoming traffic and also  to be a clear warning / indication for traffic that something happened in the road.

Take control of the scene until medical assistance arrives, people will listen to somebody giving orders.
 - Get somebody to warn / control and redirect traffic if needed
 - Try and keep the injured person as calm as possible if they are responsive and try to get as much of their personal information as possible.
 - Do a quick assessment of possible injuries, age and gender of the injured before contacting the emergency services. Doing this can save a lot of time, for
   example the emergency services will know if they will need to dispatch an air evacuation rather to send an ambulance it f the injuries are severe or life
   threatening.
 -Try not to move the injured person, but if his/her life is in danger like in they are in the way of traffic, laying in  river, possibility that the vehicle might catch fire or
   whatever possible reason there might be it is better to move the injured to a more safe location. Here they say it is "life over limb". Try to control the bleeding if the
   injured have a gashing wound.
 - Try to make the injured as comfortable as possible, and try to protect them from the elements (sun / rain) as much as possible, for example don't let them ly directly
   on warm tar, put a jacket, car mat or anything under them to avoid them from burning on the tar if it is 30+ degrees outside. Also try to provide some shade or cover
   from the rain it needed.
 - Take as much as possible photos of different angles of the accident scene and get landmark like street names, buildings etc in your photos.
 - Get contact numbers of people who saw what happened. This will help the injured with possible claims like medical and insurance claims.

Wait till the emergency services arrive and let them do their thing.

Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Fudmucker on December 01, 2020, 10:43:31 am
EMERGENCY SCENE MANAGEMENT

While I wrote this, others may have covered much of my content:

MAKE THE AREA  SAFE !
Your first response must be to prevent further accidents from other approaching traffic.
Face your bike/s towards the traffic with lights on to shield the injured person - the more of you doing this the better.
If you DO NOT have trained First Response available, just try to keep the injured persons still and lying / sitting down and not jumping up and running around.
If they have broken bones and ribs, the likelihood of fractured bone cutting through arteries, veins and verves is very high.

DO NOT EVER REMOVE THEIR HELMET FOR THEM !
If they have a neck injury you could paralyse them for life!

If they are conscious, talk quietly and calmly to them to reduce stress - theirs and yours
Ask if you can contact anyone for them, etc.

CALLING AN AMBULANCE:
If they DO have medical aid, get their details and then call 112 from any cellphone.
You will most likely be required to give the injured person's details to determine the response.
If they have NO hospital plan at least, their only chance is a State Health Ambulance.
The land line for State Ambulance is 10177
YOU need to tell them where you are calling them to in order to assist.
Address, street corners, distance markers the road you are on, cellphone pin etc.

WHILE YOU ARE WAITING:
Keep the injured calm, comfortable and still.
Shield them from the sun.
Offer them water if thirsty.
If they are feeling hot, pour water around their neck.

TAKING PICTURES:
IF you take pictures / videos, capture the physical scene, other vehicles, road markings, road hazards like oil, diesel, loose gravel etc.
Take details of any witnesses and get their pictures too.
RESPECT the dignity of the injured / deceased.
This is NOT to make you famous on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook etc. !


AFTERWARDS:
If, after feeling totally helpless at a scene you want to do something about it, get trained in First Aid and Emergency Care at a HWSETA accredited service provider.
Level one is minimum with level two preferred for better skills. I recently successfully completed my Level 2 renewal certification.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on December 01, 2020, 10:55:05 am
DO NOT EVER REMOVE THEIR HELMET FOR THEM !
If they have a neck injury you could paralyse them for life!

Spoke to lawyer a week ago and he told me about what happened to his brothers neighbor. Hit a kudu on his GSA. Neighbor heard the accident got in his bakkie and raced to the scene. Not knowing anything about bikes or helmets he battled very long to get the helmet off. The guy was blueish is the face when he finally got it off. Had to get him breathing again. It seems now two years later the guy suffered slight brain damage due to having no oxygen for a minute or three.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: cocky on December 01, 2020, 10:58:32 am
Speaking as someone who had an accident, a tremendous help to me was just the first on scene people asking emergency (family) numbers and calling them, calling ambulance, relaying my medical aid info to responders and just asking me about myself and chatting to me to distract me until the ambulance arrived. It must have been a little distressing to them seeing me folded like a pretzel but still keeping calm and not freak me out even more. Well mind you, the lady who kept putting her hands on me praying profusely did freak me out a little. I know she meant well but it made me think I was dying for sure  :imaposer:
It will seem, based on past actions and outcomes, that you are impervious to death!
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Tabasco on December 01, 2020, 11:46:34 am
I once came across an accident scene where a biker hit a pedestrian ,
everyone new to the scene attended to the pedestrian who was obviously in serious pain, the biker was laying dead still (unconscious / I did not know at the time) in the middle of the road.

I took it upon myself to sit besides him waiting for the ambulance to arrive.
After some time  he became conscious, we started communicating , he then sat up , was able to remove his helmet by himself.
Stood up & started walking - conversation became more clear , ambulance arrived & he told them to attend to the pedestrian.

We took his mobile & phoned his wife , he also phoned work to send a bakkie to pick up his bike.
By the time I left he was arranging for the bike to be transported & his wife to fetch him.

Driving home I could not believe what just happened , one moment I thought he was a goner the next he was of to the hospital for check-up.

moral of (my) story - I have no medical background but decided to show a fellow biker my support & decided to hang in there with him (irrespective of which way things turn out) and in this case all went well , I think keeping calm & show support helps. 
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Fudmucker on December 01, 2020, 12:54:19 pm
DO NOT EVER REMOVE THEIR HELMET FOR THEM !
If they have a neck injury you could paralyse them for life!

Spoke to lawyer a week ago and he told me about what happened to his brothers neighbor. Hit a kudu on his GSA. Neighbor heard the accident got in his bakkie and raced to the scene. Not knowing anything about bikes or helmets he battled very long to get the helmet off. The guy was blueish is the face when he finally got it off. Had to get him breathing again. It seems now two years later the guy suffered slight brain damage due to having no oxygen for a minute or three.

In response, your neighbour was lucky !
A well-fitting helmet is tight and constructed to protect the skull and its contents from injury.
Removing it is very unlikely to promote breathing, unless parts of the helmet are pressing on the throat or mouth/nose.
Just cutting the chinstrap would assist in such circumstances.
If the injured person is unconscious, even when starting CPR at the roadside, one should not remove the helmet.

Assist the person if THEY remove their helmet, but don't do it of your own initiative.
Also DON'T drag the injured away unless they are in IMMEDIATE danger of fire, falling debris etc.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: DUSTRIDERS on December 01, 2020, 12:57:18 pm
DO NOT EVER REMOVE THEIR HELMET FOR THEM !
If they have a neck injury you could paralyse them for life!

Spoke to lawyer a week ago and he told me about what happened to his brothers neighbor. Hit a kudu on his GSA. Neighbor heard the accident got in his bakkie and raced to the scene. Not knowing anything about bikes or helmets he battled very long to get the helmet off. The guy was blueish is the face when he finally got it off. Had to get him breathing again. It seems now two years later the guy suffered slight brain damage due to having no oxygen for a minute or three.

In response, your neighbour was lucky !
A well-fitting helmet is tight and constructed to protect the skull and its contents from injury.
Removing it is very unlikely to promote breathing, unless parts of the helmet are pressing on the throat or mouth/nose.
Just cutting the chinstrap would assist in such circumstances.
If the injured person is unconscious, even when starting CPR at the roadside, one should not remove the helmet.

Assist the person if THEY remove their helmet, but don't do it of your own initiative.
Also DON'T drag the injured away unless they are in IMMEDIATE danger of fire, falling debris etc.
It seems he was FM, just surviving the kudu hit at 120+ he was lucky. Actually broke nothing was just knocked unconscious.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: 2StrokeDan on December 01, 2020, 01:20:21 pm
Speaking as someone who had an accident, a tremendous help to me was just the first on scene people asking emergency (family) numbers and calling them, calling ambulance, relaying my medical aid info to responders and just asking me about myself and chatting to me to distract me until the ambulance arrived. It must have been a little distressing to them seeing me folded like a pretzel but still keeping calm and not freak me out even more. Well mind you, the lady who kept putting her hands on me praying profusely did freak me out a little. I know she meant well but it made me think I was dying for sure  :imaposer:

Where on you did she put her hands? :eek7: :pot:
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Dwerg on December 01, 2020, 01:30:29 pm
Speaking as someone who had an accident, a tremendous help to me was just the first on scene people asking emergency (family) numbers and calling them, calling ambulance, relaying my medical aid info to responders and just asking me about myself and chatting to me to distract me until the ambulance arrived. It must have been a little distressing to them seeing me folded like a pretzel but still keeping calm and not freak me out even more. Well mind you, the lady who kept putting her hands on me praying profusely did freak me out a little. I know she meant well but it made me think I was dying for sure  :imaposer:

Where on you did she put her hands? :eek7: :pot:

She was praying not preying  :imaposer:
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Dwerg on December 01, 2020, 01:31:53 pm
Speaking as someone who had an accident, a tremendous help to me was just the first on scene people asking emergency (family) numbers and calling them, calling ambulance, relaying my medical aid info to responders and just asking me about myself and chatting to me to distract me until the ambulance arrived. It must have been a little distressing to them seeing me folded like a pretzel but still keeping calm and not freak me out even more. Well mind you, the lady who kept putting her hands on me praying profusely did freak me out a little. I know she meant well but it made me think I was dying for sure  :imaposer:
It will seem, based on past actions and outcomes, that you are impervious to death!

Despite my best efforts. I'd dare say you were luckier. Walking away from a head on is not something everyone can put on their CV
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Rufus115 on December 01, 2020, 02:59:37 pm
As a measure you can take if/when you are the person in need:

- put an emergency contact number on your phones lockscreen in case you are not copus mentis to advise others what your PIN is. I recently had two occassions to engage with persons that couldnt give that info, One was deceased the other not making sense...it was hard on both circumstances to get next of kin details.

And besides taking control, exude calm even if you are stressed....people will follow a leader.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Beserker on December 01, 2020, 03:17:06 pm
DO NOT EVER REMOVE THEIR HELMET FOR THEM !
If they have a neck injury you could paralyse them for life!

Spoke to lawyer a week ago and he told me about what happened to his brothers neighbor. Hit a kudu on his GSA. Neighbor heard the accident got in his bakkie and raced to the scene. Not knowing anything about bikes or helmets he battled very long to get the helmet off. The guy was blueish is the face when he finally got it off. Had to get him breathing again. It seems now two years later the guy suffered slight brain damage due to having no oxygen for a minute or three.

ping StrokeHer, he nearly choked to death because of the chinstrap  -  leave helmet on, loosen strap  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: 2StrokeDan on December 01, 2020, 04:23:27 pm
Speaking as someone who had an accident, a tremendous help to me was just the first on scene people asking emergency (family) numbers and calling them, calling ambulance, relaying my medical aid info to responders and just asking me about myself and chatting to me to distract me until the ambulance arrived. It must have been a little distressing to them seeing me folded like a pretzel but still keeping calm and not freak me out even more. Well mind you, the lady who kept putting her hands on me praying profusely did freak me out a little. I know she meant well but it made me think I was dying for sure  :imaposer:

Where on you did she put her hands? :eek7: :pot:

She was praying not preying  :imaposer:

Sharp! :imaposer: :imaposer:
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: cocky on December 01, 2020, 08:34:10 pm
Speaking as someone who had an accident, a tremendous help to me was just the first on scene people asking emergency (family) numbers and calling them, calling ambulance, relaying my medical aid info to responders and just asking me about myself and chatting to me to distract me until the ambulance arrived. It must have been a little distressing to them seeing me folded like a pretzel but still keeping calm and not freak me out even more. Well mind you, the lady who kept putting her hands on me praying profusely did freak me out a little. I know she meant well but it made me think I was dying for sure  :imaposer:
It will seem, based on past actions and outcomes, that you are impervious to death!

Despite my best efforts. I'd dare say you were luckier. Walking away from a head on is not something everyone can put on their CV
One small head-on!
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Kortbroek on December 02, 2020, 07:48:07 am
In my opinion the only reason to remove the helmet is if you need to do cpr. Remember with most helmets you can pull out a lot of the padding on the sides first then the helmet comes off very easily.

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Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Fudmucker on December 02, 2020, 11:41:51 am
In my opinion the only reason to remove the helmet is if you need to do cpr. Remember with most helmets you can pull out a lot of the padding on the sides first then the helmet comes off very easily.

The latest training recommends to NOT do mouth-to-mouth due to COVID etc risk to First Responders.
Chest compressions will deflate and expand the chest enough to cycle air in the lungs.
By the time you have removed the helmet, the lack of circulation will have already caused a lot of permanent damage.
If there is assistance available, the helmet strap can be loosened.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Kortbroek on December 02, 2020, 12:18:06 pm
In my opinion the only reason to remove the helmet is if you need to do cpr. Remember with most helmets you can pull out a lot of the padding on the sides first then the helmet comes off very easily.

The latest training recommends to NOT do mouth-to-mouth due to COVID etc risk to First Responders.
Chest compressions will deflate and expand the chest enough to cycle air in the lungs.
By the time you have removed the helmet, the lack of circulation will have already caused a lot of permanent damage.
If there is assistance available, the helmet strap can be loosened.

Covid aside, it doesn't take that long to remove a helmet safely if you have to. Secondly, rescue breathing is still very relevant to CPR. CPR is incredibly hard work, you want every little advantage you can get. You have no idea how difficult it is until you've actually done it for real.

When I recently renewed my level 3 wilderness first aid we spoke about this and the consensus was you still do both rescue breathing and compressions. That said, if you are not able to do both then compressions is the first prize yes. See below also a nice article outlining it a bit better.

https://emergencycare.hsi.com/blog/rescue-breaths-are-they-gone-or-not


Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: Fudmucker on December 02, 2020, 12:25:39 pm
From the referenced article above:

"In 2010, the CPR guidelines were updated with the concept of compression-only CPR as a separate option for untrained bystanders. This was based on the concept that, for at least a few minutes, chest compressions alone could circulate the remaining oxygen in the bloodstream of a victim of sudden cardiac arrest. Evidence showed that, in this circumstance, compression-only CPR was just as effective as traditional CPR with compressions and breaths."

and later...

"So, rescue breaths were not eliminated for trained lay CPR providers, just for the much shorter and broader awareness of compression-only CPR."

Thank you for the reference.
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: pwt on December 02, 2020, 04:32:11 pm
The standard first aid drill is HHH followed by ABC
The first H is for hazards, self-explanatory, but remember that hazards does include all hazards to the casualty aa well as the responder and this includes the hazard of contracting transferrable and contagious diseases
The 2nd H is for Help, to immediately commission some form of assistance, telephonically or a passerby that can call for an ambulance or, or
And the 3rd H is for Hello to determine if the casualty is responsive

Thereafter one would proceed to administering the ABC,
Airway to see if there are any obstructions hindering breathing
Breathing to determine if the person is breathing
Circulation to determine whether the person has a heartbeat and simultaneously look for visual signs of major trauma (major leaks)

This is the basic primary examination to determine your next step as a first responder
Title: Re: Emergency procedures
Post by: King Louis on December 03, 2020, 04:49:16 pm
Any accident with personal injury is hectic. I can only comment based on personal experience as a first aider (level 2), not as a professional.

Once you have done your first aid, lots of what you learned goes into the back of the mind and unless you deal with it regularly, you could easily panic. If you are lucky, you only have one injured. The more they get, the more hectic it becomes. My first accident was two years after the course. Of course, a car t-boned a mini taxi. The lady in the car had abdominal pain, probably from being pushed into the seatbelt. Out of the rolled taxi came 7 people with a variety of injuries. First step is always to ensure your own safety, not the injured. A dead helper can't do much. Then you have to asses the emergency scene and check for hazards. Pretty quickly you should take control of the scene, use bystanders or uninjured people to call emergency services. You have to check, which one of the injured is the worst off and deal with them as good as you can. If possible, obtain consent from the injured. It could be implied (if the patient is unable to give consent), actual consent, or consent regarding a minor. Legally, it is highly unlikely to have any consequences for you, as you do the best you can according to your knowledge.

Always wear gloves, when treating people. I had one lady with the abdominal pain, one gent with a clearly broken collar bone, one chap with cuts on his lower leg. So I asked one of the uninjured to monitor the lady and keep me informed, if she looses consciousness, then checked the collar bone, then cleaned the cuts of the guy. At that time my gloves broke. You have to decide to stop treating or continue. A lot goes through your mind at such time. Then someone, who thought he was seriously injured, tried to get my attention (my trainer calls them the walking dead....). And you still have to check the others. It took the ambulance about 15 minutes (seemingly, might have been faster) to arrive and the paramedics took over.

When it comes to CPR, there are two options: either rescue breathing or compressions, or both. Whichever you decide, the quicker, the better. Check for breathing, pulse, apply mouth to mouth and/or compress the sternum. Without rescue breathing, at least by compressing you try to continue the heart to pump blood through the system, which allows oxygen to get to organs. The patient is either in shock already, or about to go into shock, which stops oxygen to reach vital organs. So speed does make a difference. If anyone here has better or different medical advice, please go for it and let us know.

Every accident is different, sometimes I take my first aid brochure out and go through it, just to familiarise myself with what to do again. All I can hope for, should I be in need of a first aider, that one will be there.

Some facilitators for first aid training can show you, how to safely remove a helmet, it usually does require two people. One to hold the injured persons head still, the other to remove the helmet as careful as possible.