Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => General Bike Related Banter => Topic started by: Hakbos on May 18, 2021, 09:26:48 am

Title: Bikes without papers
Post by: Hakbos on May 18, 2021, 09:26:48 am
Morning All

I see a lot of ads, especially on vintage and restoration groups, for "project" or restored bikes without papers. What is the process of getting such a bike legal/on the road again and is it worth the while?

Thanx. Have a good week.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Lars on May 18, 2021, 09:51:31 am
I have had some bikes without papers. It used to be a matter of a sworn affidavit and proof of where you bought the bike from and invoices of parts bought to restore it. Then you could apply for police clearance and subject to the bike as not flagged as stolen you could register it as a rebuild (code 3). I recently bought two bikes wich were deregistered (scrapped). They were not accident damaged just deregistered. In order to re register them I needed permission from the last registered owner to present it for police clearance on his behalf together with an original police certified copy of his ID and proof of residency. Original copies, nothing emailed or copied. Having something with no papers at all will be almost impossible to get back on the road afaik. Even worse if it is not on enatis.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: LRFan on May 18, 2021, 02:38:42 pm
I agree with LARS, sitting with a car that is not on enatis no I have a car that will not be able to registered.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: WheelieDog on May 18, 2021, 04:37:41 pm
Unless you have the full cooperation of the registered owner you don't stand a chance of sorting out the paperwork. When I say full cooperation I mean where he is prepared to take leave to stand in ques for you at the registration offices, more than once too. On top of that there will be outstanding license fees, fines etc

I've had the displeasure, as a buyer and a seller. My advise is to walk away, no matter how keenly the bike calls your name.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Gerrard on May 18, 2021, 07:29:30 pm
No.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Vintage_Mania on May 18, 2021, 07:40:08 pm
It all depends what you want to do with the bike and/or the purpose.

I would not care about papers if it is an old Enduro or MX bike that is going to be used to play off road with no public road riding - this will include all types of public roads Also if you need spares for a bike that has papers then buying a similar bike as "spares" without papers is okay - just remember engine casings and frame numbers. Also if it is going to be worked on a private farm then who cares.

Biggest deterrent is that it can be a stolen motorcycle, but if it is an old and stripped off-roader then the chances are slim, but you just never know. Second biggest is if you are involved in an accident on a public (or not) road and then there are insurance issues - for vehicle, medical and life insurance.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: 2StrokeDan on May 18, 2021, 08:57:28 pm
Where's Justin?
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: petri oosthuizen on May 18, 2021, 09:10:09 pm
No.

....that basically is the answer. :thumleft:
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Allegro on May 19, 2021, 06:36:33 am
It all depends what you want to do with the bike and/or the purpose.

I would not care about papers if it is an old Enduro or MX bike that is going to be used to play off road with no public road riding - this will include all types of public roads Also if you need spares for a bike that has papers then buying a similar bike as "spares" without papers is okay - just remember engine casings and frame numbers. Also if it is going to be worked on a private farm then who cares.

Biggest deterrent is that it can be a stolen motorcycle, but if it is an old and stripped off-roader then the chances are slim, but you just never know. Second biggest is if you are involved in an accident on a public (or not) road and then there are insurance issues - for vehicle, medical and life insurance.

Some time ago, bought my son a YZ125 offroad, also no papers bla, bla, bla. Ended up finding out the bike was still under finance with Standard bank, and they were looking for it, as there was outstanding monies on it. Took me almost a year to get the prev owner to pay SB and me to get the NATiS document  >:(
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Leo on May 19, 2021, 09:16:56 am
My advice - walk away.

Bought an old airhead about 7 years ago.

Tried to get it registered, got to the point where the licensing authority said I must provide a court order instructing them to license the bike in my name.

5 Years on with lawyer fees, etc I am no where nearer to my goal.

If the original owner is not co-operative or had passed on, you're fucked.  :deal:

Fortunately I have a few other airheads, so I run this one with the others plates and disks, but it's a nervous ride, so I ride it seldom  ;)
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Hakbos on May 20, 2021, 06:53:13 am
Thanx for al the replies. It is sad because there are some nice buys out there.... :(
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Knucklhead on May 20, 2021, 07:31:07 am
i also noticed this , especially on the 50cc groups...and then they still want a a moerse lot of money.. :patch:
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: 2StrokeDan on May 20, 2021, 07:37:39 am
i also noticed this , especially on the 50cc groups...and then they still want a a moerse lot of money.. :patch:

The money asked for even a non-papered bike is a problem, although in the case of something like a Yamaha RD50, they are worth a lot, and lack of papers is not going to deter a buyer.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: LouisXander on May 20, 2021, 09:02:20 am
En Venter trailertjies, masehare di pryse wat die mense vra vir n papierlose trailer is verstommend!!
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: JustBendIt on May 20, 2021, 09:36:20 am
Where's Justin?

I'm back ...was away for a few days

Each case of "vehicle without papers" can be different and have its own merits / demerits ...some are fairly easy to sort out while others are just a total mess

I would need the VIN and engine number to find out exactly what the story is because the seller usually doesn't know or has conveniently forgotten

Probably the biggest issue, besides the "no papers" vehicle being stolen, is a huge amount of unpaid licence fees and penalties that will have to be paid before new papers can be issued
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: sidetrack on May 20, 2021, 10:22:30 am
i also noticed this , especially on the 50cc groups...and then they still want a a moerse lot of money.. :patch:
Export to the USA and ask even more money
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Vintage_Mania on May 20, 2021, 10:29:57 am
It all depends what you want to do with the bike and/or the purpose.

I would not care about papers if it is an old Enduro or MX bike that is going to be used to play off road with no public road riding - this will include all types of public roads Also if you need spares for a bike that has papers then buying a similar bike as "spares" without papers is okay - just remember engine casings and frame numbers. Also if it is going to be worked on a private farm then who cares.

Biggest deterrent is that it can be a stolen motorcycle, but if it is an old and stripped off-roader then the chances are slim, but you just never know. Second biggest is if you are involved in an accident on a public (or not) road and then there are insurance issues - for vehicle, medical and life insurance.

Some time ago, bought my son a YZ125 offroad, also no papers bla, bla, bla. Ended up finding out the bike was still under finance with Standard bank, and they were looking for it, as there was outstanding monies on it. Took me almost a year to get the prev owner to pay SB and me to get the NATiS document  >:(

You will see all my feedback centers on the fact that you won't need or want papers. If you want to buy to "sort out" the paperwork the rather walk away.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: JIMMI on May 20, 2021, 03:48:04 pm
I got an old airhead without papers from a fellow forum member a couple of years ago.  Forum member got it from someone that got it from someone etc...

The intention was to use duplicate plates from my GS when riding it on the road. 

I got curious and and went to my local (Darling) DMV and asked the tannie what i must do to get it registered in my name.  She looked on the system and told me there was around R3K outstanding license fees and penalties and had to get the following:

Sworn affidavit from SAPS stating where and how i got the motorcycle.  All relevent vin and engine numbers had to be stipulated.
I also had to specify that the owner was not contactable after exhausting all avenues.

Once I had that she gave me another form for Police Clearance whIch is only scheduled for once a month in my area.  I also had to take out a temp license.

Take motorcycle for Datadot and certificate.

Present bike with above documentation at Police Clearance.

Back to Tannie at DMV, she took all the paperwork and sent it to "hoof kantoor" for approval and authorisation.

About five weeks later i got a call to say it has been approved.  Went in, paid the outstanding fees and got the reg paper in my name.

Please note that prior to approaching the tannie about the paperwork issue i made a concerted effort to be nice and pleasant to her on all my previous interactions with her.  Yes, I blew smoke up her arse knowing that i would need her in my corner.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Leo on May 20, 2021, 04:10:35 pm
Lucky you - Jimmi  ;)

I don't have a nice old tannie working at my local licensing office.

She is overweight with greasy fingers from eating KFC and feels farkall for me and my requests  :dousing:
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: JIMMI on May 20, 2021, 04:21:00 pm
My "Tannie" is certainly no looker and initially treated me with the disdain and contempt an english speaker apparently deserves in this neck of the woods.  However i armed myself with chocolates, smiles, compliments and a thick skin.  It took me a while, but i kept focused on the goal.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: JustBendIt on May 20, 2021, 04:23:35 pm
My "Tannie" is certainly no looker and initially treated me with the disdain and contempt an english speaker apparently deserves in this neck of the woods.  However i armed myself with chocolates, smiles, compliments and a thick skin.  It took me a while, but i kept focused on the goal.

What did her arse look like when you were blowing the smoke up it ?
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: JIMMI on May 20, 2021, 04:28:32 pm
My "Tannie" is certainly no looker and initially treated me with the disdain and contempt an english speaker apparently deserves in this neck of the woods.  However i armed myself with chocolates, smiles, compliments and a thick skin.  It took me a while, but i kept focused on the goal.

What did her arse look like when you were blowing the smoke up it ?

Bleg :snorting:
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: DewetR on May 20, 2021, 04:41:51 pm
Glad you got sorted Jimmi. I have busy trying to get a build up SR500 on my name. It took me about 3 months of getting the following: RPI (Grabouw), Weigh bridge certificate (Caledon), proof of expenditure plus affidavid (Kleinmond), RPC (Hermanus). The bike was cleared yesterday. It is now on my name and the only thing left is RWC. The thing that took the longest is the wait after handing in the proof of build plus the rest of the forms. Luckily the bike was not on the system so no outstanding penalties could be found. The big thing is you have to keep at it otherwise the process will never be completed. So, I am now the proud owner of a Yamaha SR500.

Sent from my PRA-LA1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: JIMMI on May 20, 2021, 05:44:20 pm
Glad you got sorted Jimmi. I have busy trying to get a build up SR500 on my name. It took me about 3 months of getting the following: RPI (Grabouw), Weigh bridge certificate (Caledon), proof of expenditure plus affidavid (Kleinmond), RPC (Hermanus). The bike was cleared yesterday. It is now on my name and the only thing left is RWC. The thing that took the longest is the wait after handing in the proof of build plus the rest of the forms. Luckily the bike was not on the system so no outstanding penalties could be found. The big thing is you have to keep at it otherwise the process will never be completed. So, I am now the proud owner of a Yamaha SR500.

Sent from my PRA-LA1 using Tapatalk

You are so correct.  Persistence pays off.  Just keep on going at it like a jack russel down a rabbit hole.
Well done to you getting it sorted out.  I hope you have many happy miles on the SR.  Such nice bikes.  I had one in the early 80's. Really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: Bill the Bong on May 20, 2021, 08:28:48 pm
Got a BMW R50/2 without papers on my name after 1 year and 2 weeks. Thatís sort of long.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: WNaude on May 21, 2021, 02:03:57 pm
I restored a 82 XR500R a while ago without papers and wanted to register the bike as a rebuild. As the rumours on this process was it's very close to impossible I left it and walked away.

A couple of months ago a decided to give it I try, 2 months later and it was sorted, just waiting for the actual registration paper to be printed. Went to Watloo in Pretoria.

I can't believe i'm going to say this but it as actually quite a simple and easy process. All you need is patience en geduld.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: DewetR on May 21, 2021, 02:40:34 pm
Glad you got sorted. It is a rather simple process if there are only outstanding fines and licences. Then all you need is money, time and geduld. If previous owners cannot be found it complicates things a bit.

Sent from my PRA-LA1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: DewetR on May 24, 2021, 11:00:01 am
At last!! RWC done and passed. The SR500 is now mine with valid papers and a license disc. Yippee!!

Sent from my PRA-LA1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: nickza on May 25, 2021, 10:14:19 am
I have a Suzuki SP370 with no papers, finally found the engine and chassis number. First port of call contacting the traffic department and see if there is a million rands worth of unpaid licensing fees on it?
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: LouisXander on May 25, 2021, 10:16:38 am
Or if it's stolen, then you're a for away
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: nickza on May 25, 2021, 10:21:26 am
Or if it's stolen, then you're a for away

So when Im at the traffic department I preface my question with "asking for a friend" to avoid being arrested?  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: LouisXander on May 25, 2021, 10:55:18 am
Something like that
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: JIMMI on May 25, 2021, 04:29:10 pm
At last!! RWC done and passed. The SR500 is now mine with valid papers and a license disc. Yippee!!

Sent from my PRA-LA1 using Tapatalk

Lekka  :thumleft:
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: funduro on June 04, 2021, 01:39:46 pm
Thanx for al the replies. It is sad because there are some nice buys out there.... :(

The bargains usually have no papers.
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: the ruffian on June 08, 2021, 10:42:27 am
And you can usually bargain them even lower...
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: LouisXander on June 08, 2021, 10:55:30 am
The norm everywhere now is no papers
Title: Re: Bikes without papers
Post by: LouisXander on June 08, 2021, 10:58:11 am
At ridiculous prices