Wild Dog Adventure Riding

General => About South Africa... => Interesting Places => Topic started by: malgat (RIP) on May 25, 2009, 02:41:19 pm

Title: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on May 25, 2009, 02:41:19 pm
just an idea and rather just testing to see wether anyone else thinks the effort is worth its salt...

my interest become alerted:

 sharkza thread regarding the vow of blood river

plotti and his jameson raid boys

request from kilroy and ideas from gunda gunda etc...

why dont we do research around a bike ride plan and try to entail the history into the ride..

or vice versa,,,

start a research thread around some battle or siege wether from the anglo-boer or other war ...

i have some books around lotsa history (not that im a buff but thats exactly my point,,,you will be when you read about it)

but frinstance,,,,

did you know the jameson raid was a huge disaster and actually lasted 3 days over new years eve,,,but somehow it had an impact on sa history,,,imagine following they tracks

did you know that a war was started when the british stopped a boer in his cart on the way to bronkhorstspruit,,,they demanded  tax money and when he didnt comply they took his horse,,,so the boer went to the nearby farmers,,,made a posse and got his horse back,farking up a few british in the process,,thus starting the second anglo boere war

from a pta point of view the march to pta by the british was done by sneaking between the two boere forts somewhere between sesmyl spruit and irene and thus walking straight into pta and church square and just dropped the vierkleur and replaced with the union jack,,,no resistance

did you know that from all the boers that volunteered for the war effort actually didnt go, but according to their wives and children they were there,,,meanwhile the okes were having a lekka hunting jol,,,,some boere refused to work with their generals and just parked at the military camp,,,some sent their black folk,,,,but thank goodness there were a lot of bittereinders that fought through the whole war

do you know where names like broederstroom,marabastad and robertsheights came from

from natal we obviously have huge history around rourkesdrift, spioenkop, majuba, etc

the history around cape town must be great,,,and then there are vrystaat, northern cape, nort west, etc

on google earth they actually show you the coordinates of the battles,,,,so we know where to go ,,,lets just fill up on history and then make trip around it

am i the only one interested,,,be frank and honest in your criticism or motivation to go ahead

tell me im wasting my time???? or support me???

this by the way isnt just my effort,,,i expect all the wd's to contribute,,,the particular site/heading/topic isnt neccesary a chat site,,,it contains basic info contributed by all,,all with a biker riders point of view

Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: Trailrider on May 26, 2009, 07:48:17 am
I like the idea.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: corne.l on May 26, 2009, 08:08:03 am
I like the idea.

Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on May 26, 2009, 09:03:42 am
Next time you wander through Magaliesburg you should stop at the museum at Out of Africa. They have a lot of Boer war stuff, bushman paintings and all sorts of other things. The curator is very knowledgable (Robin Walton) and for the price of a castle lager dumpie will point you in the direction of various other historical sites in the area. Including the Jameson raid route. The raiders grouped at Mr Boon's store (now the hamlet of Boons) and took the road to Tarlton (locally know as the Jameson road), they eventually got their asses kicked and surrendered and a place between Leratong hospital and Doornkop mine shaft where there is a monument.

Anyway, its a good place to start for a historical ride.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on May 26, 2009, 09:33:40 am
you seee...you seee

thanx db9,,,thats exactly the kinda info i wanna share,,,cool

do you have an email address of robin walton....

if you do the wikepedia or google thing you get only facts,,,i want to know that seeing the raided over new years eve,,,were they pissed,,,where did they stop for beers or did they have a gg that made them cuppaciones along the way,,,,were the orange horses in the front or were the ou toppies with the AT's at the back eating dust,,,where did they stop and at what garage did they get together,,,

what kinda guy was jameson,,,did he stop a lot for smoke breaks and for the slower horses to catch up,,,was it a flat out race and did everybody ride together,,,what map did they use,,,they were supposed to cut the telephone lines but didn't ,,,were some walking and did they have breakfast, lunch and a braai in the evening,,,did they stop to skiet a bokkie or did they pull in at the shabeens coming all the way from botswana,,,or was jameson like blazes,,,stop for water only,,,hahaha

what was the weather like,,,did they battle through sand and was it muddy,,,what mountains did they cross or did they come over breedsnek,,did they come storming through the veld,,,and what about fences,,,did they close the gates ,,,did they travel under darkness or daytime,,,

what if a horse got a puncture(hoof sore),,,did they steal another one or did someone else come from behind with spares,,,did they attack people along the way and did they do excessive speeds,,,what about the slower horses,,,did they ride together in clicks,,,did the dark horses ride ahead and the small ponies avoid the mountain climbs and river crossings.....

so many questions????
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on May 26, 2009, 01:51:11 pm
Its best to visit the Museum or the closest pub to find Robin. He's easilly recognisable by the long white beard and farked up bush hat. Email he doesn't do. But if we get a few dogs together who are interested I'll have a chat to him and we can put together a trippie.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on May 26, 2009, 02:43:57 pm
please do,,,,beers are on me,,,,

just been out to a book store,,thers some damm good books there,,,

but exspensive

theres a lekker afrikaans(die anglo boere oorlog) one written by a pakendorf somebody ,,,

and then an english one(anglo boer wars) written by arthur conan doyle (creator of sherlock holmes)

the one i want is "op komando,,,die lewe in die veld tydens die anglo-boere oorlog"
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on May 26, 2009, 02:47:22 pm
You must read 'Adrift on the open Veldt' by Deneys Reitz as well.

By the way I saw yours and Leon's inscription on the wall in "Cops and Robbers'!
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: onderbroek on May 27, 2009, 01:44:31 pm
my granddad was a big follower of the boerwars, hes got a copy of thomas pakenhams book " the anglo Boer war" i think, as well as some other books, he also has the signed document of where his father had to sign before being deported by the english, i will see if i can get my hands on them.

btw my granddad stayed on a farm where both houses on the farm where national monuments because of their age exc.
The english had a fort on the farm where numerous peole wnet to go dig up stuff, the train bridge on the farm is also from that ers, and u can still see the rocks that the english put there to provide protection for their canons exc, the farm is in Heilbron Free state called leeuwpoort

Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: mtbbiker on May 27, 2009, 08:56:48 pm
Great Idea, My dad took us when we were little "jokkertjies" on bike trips (We could choose the destination) I chose to go to Pilgrims Rest (We stayed in Ermelo - then Eastern Transvaal) This was one of the great moments of my live as I can remember a lot of detail of this trip because my dad is like a walking encyclopedia and we stopped at every monument so could he could told me the History.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on May 28, 2009, 10:04:20 am
You guys must just say when you want to do it? Pretty much any Sunday would be good. We can have a look at the museum, and then go to some sites nearby. Paul Kruger's sulphur spring is right behind magaliesburg, and there are various other easily accessible places.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: mtbbiker on May 28, 2009, 03:55:34 pm
I'll take you up on that offer. I am just not available in the next 2 weeks, but when I am back we should organize something. :thumleft:
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on May 29, 2009, 09:14:33 am
im in as well,,,,,so lets pull in some more wd;s and make a afternoon of it,,,

mtbbiker....pm me if and when u ready

db9,,,can we get a subject of the day or do you think we just go carte blanche with the historian,,,,

if we can get a day topic i could do some research and brief everybody before by starting a thread,,,this way it wil add to the discussion and wet your appetite

i suppose a sleep over is too much,,

gg and kilroy,,,u're in???? who else???
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: Frog on May 29, 2009, 09:37:54 am
I'd be interested to join depending on dates.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: Operator on May 29, 2009, 09:41:58 am
hes got a copy of thomas pakenhams book " the anglo Boer war"

I'm currently busy reading the book.............the Afrikaans translated version.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: mr r on May 29, 2009, 06:47:12 pm
hi dogs ,have a look at the book "FRONTIERS" british boer xhosa history  in eastern cape and its influence to SAhistory,not sure who the author is brilliant read
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: Brink on May 29, 2009, 07:01:48 pm
I see Trailrider has replied - he is already doing a lot of this on his RR's - very informative and ads spice to the read :thumleft:
If I am not mistaken he is a bit of a buff on the subject.

I have lots of info on the Bakerville area wrt historical diamond mining and it would be a good/cool if we could also revive the idea of the geological run and incorporate (if possible) into the whole idea :mwink:

BACK 2 SCHOOL is cool :deal:
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: shark_za on May 30, 2009, 03:54:25 pm
A visit to the battle sites of the magalies mountains could also be interesting.
I know someone who is quite knowledgeable.

forts and blockhouses etc.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: chalsam on May 30, 2009, 09:28:08 pm
I'm in ... love our history.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 01, 2009, 09:23:46 am
I'm around for the next two weekends. If we can settle on a date, I will arrange with Robin, he knows lots of people if we need to get permission for going onto private land to look at some places.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 03, 2009, 08:31:12 am
If you go to www.gutenberg.org , there are a whole bunch of downloadable books on the boer war:

Etext-No.  Author Title Language
12427   Campbell, Robert Granville Neutral Rights and Obligations in the Anglo-Boer War English
23692   Creswicke, Louis South Africa and the Transvaal War, Vol. 1 (of 6)
From the Foundation of Cape Colony to the Boer Ultimatum
of 9th Oct. 1899 English
3069   Doyle, Arthur Conan, Sir, 1859-1930 The Great Boer War English
27897   Fenn, George Manville, 1831-1909
Boucher, W. [Illustrator]
 The Kopje Garrison
A Story of the Boer War English
19895   Fisher, Sydney George, 1856-1927 The American Revolution and the Boer War, An Open Letter to Mr. Charles Francis Adams on His Pamphlet "The Confederacy and the Transvaal" English
15972   Jacson, M. The Record of a Regiment of the Line
Being a Regimental History of the 1st Battalion Devonshire
Regiment during the Boer War 1899-1902 English
15561   Mann, Arthur M. The Boer in Peace and War English
15106   Thomas, C. H. Origin of the Anglo-Boer War Revealed (2nd ed.)
The Conspiracy of the 19th Century Unmasked English
25049   Viljoen, Ben J. (Ben Johannis), 1868-1917
Van Breda, P. [Illustrator]
 My Reminiscences of the Anglo-Boer War English
23875   Young, Filson, 1876-1938 The Relief of Mafeking
How it Was Accomplished by Mahon's Flying Column; with an Account of Some Earlier Episodes in the Boer War of 1899-1900 English
15699    A Handbook of the Boer War
With General Map of South Africa and 18 Sketch Maps and Plans English
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on June 03, 2009, 09:41:48 am
wooo hoooo,,,im really getting sucked into this history stuff,,,,its totally amazing

one rides past places without realising the history behind it,,,,did u know the british bought a huge piece of land from nelmapius and because it had lotsa trees for firewood and used it for a concentration camp,,,,over 8000 women and children died there (in one year) from dysentry and malnutrition,,,the tents were skimpy and we all know how cold it is at nite in Irene,,,irene btw means mercy,,,inside this camp they had a barbebwire enclosure used as a "strafkamp" where women were stripped and left naked for 24 hours,,,history tells of a certain woman who gave birth in that strafkamp to a dead infant,,

but reading on one cant help thinking that a whole generation of people (28 000 women and children) died in the camps,,,,mostly white, some black and coloured as well,,was it neccesary to go to war???,,,,,the anglo boer war was a battle between two very staunch and proud leaders namely Paul Kruger and Cecil John Rhodes/Kitchner,,,both wanted the same thing and wouldnt compromise the other his space in this country

part and parcel of the concentration camps every farm was burnt down to the ground, livestock confiscated, implements destroyed and all grazing burnt to ultimately destroy the boer livelyhood,,,this "scorched earth" way of war was fought over the whole of transvaal and free state,,,cape, natal and botswana (betchuanaland) already belonged to the british,,,the sea ways were under british command and arms and supplies for the boers had to come from mozambique and sudwest,,,just in this effort is a million odd stories of people riding transport,, facing the bush, animals,elements and mozzies

but in feedback on my thread i've got so much info on he Jameson Raid that i should start it as this was the start of the war,,,,all the other battles and sieges happened on account of this totally failure of a raid to overcome Johannesburg,,,Dr Jameson wanted guts and glory and without the go-ahead from Brittain he went ass over heel on with his quest,,,made lotsa mistakes along the way,,,bullshitted people along the way until the boers stopped him at doornkop (outside krugersdorp) and killed 58 of his men,,,he was arrested, england stated he went on his own accord and was convicted to hanging,,,later it converted to 15 years and again later to 15 months, thereafter he was released and became a  bigshot in the government (sound familiar????)

anyway i've found zillions of books on the war very cheap at some exclusive books and have found lotsa info from the far-right websites,,,,putting them against the google results and people like arthur conan doyle makes for some interesting view points,,,

i'm rambling, i know.....but starting at the jameson raid  there are zillions of stories quite recent (1900's) from there onwards,,,i intend reading about them,,,im reading a diary of a soldier and its stunningly funny and interesting,,,lotsa pissups and pilfering the neighborhood,,,these guys remind me so much of the wilddogs forum people,,also i see a whole new set of riding reports based around visiting the sites,,,re enacting the situation and so kinda riding in the tracks of history

ive also found some great info and the logistics behind every great battle (mostly natal) and also  in detail everything that happened at bloodriver,,,making for some great readings ,,,and appreciation

imagine we get the jameson brothers on their KTM's armed with paintball guns and we get the klr, at, yz,xr 's together and form a lager at doornkop at the jameson raid monument and re enact the battle,,,,afterwards we tie up plottie, funacide, poppipants and their cronies and feed them jameson whiskey while groenie smokes his pipe and the rest of us have obs in coffee mugs
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 03, 2009, 09:56:58 am
There is also a lot of early Tswana stone kraals all over the magaliesberg, the one's in the pic are close to my place and can be accessed by bike. The stonework is quite extensive and the rings you see in the image are about 50m across.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on June 03, 2009, 10:07:49 am
thanx db9,,,

that gutenburg site is fantastic,,also the google arials,,,,

if i wasnt so damm lazy (busy on the forum and reading history) i could scan the "planning riding" threads and furnish them with some researched related history and try and add to the ride and experience by bringing history into it,,,,but then i do drink jack daniels,,,hmmm,,,,i wonder if he was tjommies with jameson

must say those kraals look like lekka bosberaad sites
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 03, 2009, 10:10:30 am
If you like a rock for a pillow!

So when are we going to do this thing? This weekend is tech day etc etc, next weekend is possible? The following weekend I am away. I would suggest we meet at the museum in Magalies on a Sunday morning and then decide where to go from there... Just need to decide when.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 05, 2009, 07:50:25 am
I bumped into Robin last night. He is keen on the idea and wants to put together a whole tour. This is great news because he can get us access onto private land to see some of this stuff. He suggested that we coud have a look at the battle of Nooitgedagt. There is a road that goes up to that beacon on top of the maintain where you can see the whole story. Also the battle of Naauwpoort where there is a monument and things, and then also bushmen paintings, iron age stuff etc. He will also come a long to tell us what's what. Robin knows everything about the area. If someone spat on the side of the road from an oxwagon, Robin knows what colour the ox was.  :thumleft:

As for a date, I would suggest either Sun 14th or 28th, or the 5th or 14th of July.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on June 05, 2009, 09:12:12 am
i would suggest the june the 28th,,,,that first choice is slap bang in a long weekend,,

so my vote goes for 28th or thereafter....

this sounds really lekker,,,

im busy reading the reminisicents of a soldier in the anglo boer but yesterday someone gave me the diary of jamesons batman??? wooo hooo,,,,now i first have to finish the one book before starting the next,,,,so yes i'll be ready with my jameson and naauwpoort prep by the 28th,,,i have lotsa info on jameson and some very moffie looking photos and paintings of the man,,,,,wooo hoooo ...

with the jameson photos in my possesion i'm trying to see which of the three jameson gang looks like him and around who i can build my story,,,,plottie, funacide or poppipants,,,the plot thickens,,,stay tuned

this is going to be great
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 05, 2009, 09:18:15 am
Orraight lets strike while the iron is hot and do the 28th. I'll get back to you with exact details, but for the moment meet at the museum at 'Out of Africa' at 9 on next Sunday morning and we'll take it from there.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on June 05, 2009, 09:22:17 am
Orraight lets strike while the iron is hot and do the 28th. I'll get back to you with exact details, but for the moment meet at the museum at 'Out of Africa' at 9 on next Sunday morning and we'll take it from there.

oops,,,this weekend and the next is out for me,,,,sorrie,,,how about the 21st???

Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 05, 2009, 09:28:07 am
No can do, I am away that weekend. July 12?
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on June 05, 2009, 09:42:07 am
ok done,,,,

lets recap,,,,,

robins tour the 28th june

visit to the museum "out of africa" on the 12th july
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 05, 2009, 09:45:43 am
Now I'm confused? Museum is the starting point for the tour as there are maps etc for a bit of background. I though you couldn't do the 28th?
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on June 05, 2009, 09:51:02 am
Now I'm confused? Museum is the starting point for the tour as there are maps etc for a bit of background. I though you couldn't do the 28th?

i can do the 28th defnitely,,,,

its this weekend 7th june and the next 14 th june that i cant make,,,

but 28th suits me fine,,,,

so we on for 28th?????

Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: KiLRoy on June 05, 2009, 09:51:19 am
I'm in!!!!
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 05, 2009, 09:54:52 am
Done. 28th it is then.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on June 05, 2009, 10:07:59 am
Done. 28th it is then.

sharp shoot,,,,

i wil start a new thread with some background info around jameson,,,

 and the battle of nauwpoort and nooitgedacht

i wonder if we can include a visit to jameson monument in doornkop as well,,,some lekker gravel roads there????
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: DeepBass9 on June 05, 2009, 10:12:41 am
OK, already started a thread for the trip.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: mtbbiker on June 05, 2009, 01:04:54 pm
I'll keep the 28th open too !!!
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: Copernicus on July 27, 2009, 10:58:52 am
Malgat, this is a great idea and I think to combine a roadtrip with something other than beer and stof is quite novel.

I was posted to Canada during the centenary commemorations of the Anglo Boer War, or the South African War, as it is known in that part of the world, and was closely involved with several ceremonies.  The Canadians have several regiments that were formed during the ABW and almost all of them still exist today, many with exemplary combat records in the Great War, WWII and other parts of the world.  Sadly, from the South African side, the ABW was fought from the kitchen, so to speak, and the soldiers returned to scorched farms, graves of wives and children and a political dispensation for the defeated.  None of them felt like establishing regiments that would continue and leave a legacy.

The Canadians asked a lot about partnering with South African regiments from the ABW, as a gesture of friendship, 100 years after the last shots were fired.  Unfortunately that was not possible.  However, as was the case with most wars of that time, many young men left their country of origin with the glint of adventure in their eyes, only to become casualties of war, most of them without seeing even one battle, but the victims of disease and other misfortune that claimed so many in this country of ours.  But their names appear on gravestones all over the routes of the war and it is this that people are very interested in.  Many wish to come and retrace the footsteps of a family member, albeit a hundred years later.

This is not quite the same as doing a bike tour and visiting historic sites inSouth Africa, but it is along a similar vein.  There are several places in Canada where sites were erected in commemoration of the ABW and these places are kept alive by people who have a keen interest in their country's history and heritage.  I certainly have it on my agenda to visit these sites when I get back to SA and the fact that many of them are in remote locations, somewhere along a dirt road, is an added bonus for a "loose association" of guys and gals like the Wilddogs.  Therefore, Malgat, congrats with the idea.  I think it is highly commendable and a just cause.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: malgat (RIP) on July 27, 2009, 11:21:33 am
thanx dude,,,,

responses like these somma make me feel better,,,,im sure if we played our cards right helll we could arrange a bike trip for your canadians friends,,,,bring in blazes and he'll p0ut it together

but yes,,,your right,,,just because this war kinda sneaked past us at school doesnt mean it didnt matter,,,of course it mattered,,,it matter a moer of a lot and each and every safrican must feel proud that we have this history,,,

some days we are made to feel like the skunks of the world,,,but by reliving and re sparking our history we need to all feel better about ourselves,,,damm we are a great nation and a great history,,,

lets symbolize and understand the past and the future wil be easy,,,,

also lets face it,,,there are some great stories out there,,,talk about schalk lourens and everybody 's eyes light up,,,,but really there are zillions of stories,,,somewhere out in the veld are some graves,,,i saw an article the other day of two graves just somma nowhere somewhere in the veld,,,but the story behind it was there were these two neighbours who didnt want to take part in the war and when the brits arrived they were forced to join the brits,,,but they decline and they were told they were then gonna be shot,,,,so the farmers told the brits f,,,off and took them out on there favourite spot overlooking the farms and asked to be shot and buried right there,,,which did happen,,,those graves are still there,,,in the middle of a mielie land

thats stories you wont see on tv,,,,you need to go there probably on gravel with your bike and then ask the locals about what happened here,,,,our country is riddeled with stories waiting to be told,,,waiting to be uncovered and made public

thats why i believe the ultimate bike ride is one we dont plan,,,we take it one mile by mile,,,we stop in the dorpies and meet the people and scratch around for the stories,,,graveyards, street names, dorpie names,,,can you imagine the stories around pelgrims rest,,,,following the spoors of the dorsland trekker,,hell even the great trek,,,following the stories of moffat and livingstone, etc etc etc

can u see the ultimate bike ride,,,or am i losing it???
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: stutut on July 31, 2009, 06:41:23 pm
Hey guys, I've just picked up on your thread and think it's brilliant! I don't want to mess with your thread, but so many aspects mentioned in your discussion reminded me of the myriad interconnections that link our written history ... if the ABW is regarded as a layer, or chapter, in our history, ye gods, we have many, many others that will fill one fat volume. And the amazing thing is how these seemingly separate layers are all so inextraibly copnnected!
For me, the real joy is unearthing stuff that so often provides the missing link, or provides an explanation for an event or decision ...
Figure this one: The FS and Basutholand were niche destinations for a generation of Brits, with a strong Scottish presence. Many of them became traders, and most of them married Dutch (Afrikaans) women who often were inveighed upon to lose their heritage, and assimilate all that's British.
Numbers are hard to asses, but we're estimating at least 100 such unions in the five years leading up to the ABW. Can anyone imagine the kind of pressure, heartbreak and bitterness the ABW would have created? My interest lies in those couples and families who skipped the border into the then Basutoland, and saw out the war from across the Caledon River. Some entrepreneurial types built thriving trading operations, mainly on the back of a booming wool price that in turn fuelled an explosion of sheep farming in southern Africa ...
Such is the depth of our SHORT history, that one can put together any number of ultimate themed trips.

Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: Rob_A on August 02, 2009, 06:30:53 pm
A bit off the topic but what the heck. The next time you guys go through Fraserburg and have an hour or two to spare go to the Museum and ask them them to show you the dinosaur footprints on a farm a short way out of town. Well worth the effort.
Title: Re: gravelroads and history
Post by: Dusty Rusty on October 01, 2010, 03:59:24 pm
oe, it's a little bit late but a excellent idea!