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Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« on: January 18, 2015, 05:49:40 pm »
Hi
Ok, for some time I've been thinking on how to reduce the cost of Rally bike preparation.  We here at Rockfox are developing a few items for ourselves and are also looking at new product lines.

The current two products are CAP-Trip unit and a Roadbook.  (F@kken is/are in die Ingels!!!)

Herewith the first draft of the CAP-Trip unit.

** SNIP **
ROCKFOX PROJECTS RALLYE CAP-TRIP PROJECT

Overview.
Design and manufacture an ALL IN ONE rallye CAP repeater and Trip meter unit to be used on bikes, Quads and cars.  The unit must fit the existing mounting holes and must be fully IP67 compliant.  The unit must be an ‘All in One’ unit with user selectable functionality.  The rider can install two units and configure one as a Trip and the other as a CAP unit.  In the event of a unit failure the remaining unit can be quickly re-configured to execute both CAP and Trip functions with a shortcut option between the options.  (See detailed function diagram below – to follow --)

Specification.
The unit must have the following basic functions:

CAP heading from Magnetic north.
This feature will use a tilt compensated magnetic compass with built in buffering for smooth and stable reading.

Distance recording with only full reset option
This will be the total distance traveled for the stage.  This feature can not be adjusted and will be used for fuel range etc.  This option will only have a ‘Reset to Zero’ option. It will thus show the total distance from reset (including detours etc)
 
Trip 1 with QuickAdjust (QA) option
This option will be used with the TOTAL distance as per Roadbook.  The QA option will allow the rider to adjust any digit up or down to ‘sync’ the unit in case of a detour or navigation error.

Trip 2 with QuickAdjust (QA) and Quick Zero ( QZ) options
This option will be used with the ITEM distance as per Roadbook.  The QZ option will be used by riders that use the Item distance more than the Total distance.  The QA option will allow the rider to adjust any digit up or down to ‘sync’ the unit in case of a detour or navigation error.  We do not think that the QA option will be used much as the rider that use the Item distance will just use QZ once back on track or temporary use the Total distance up to the next Item.

Speed
Indicate the current speed from solid state pickup on front wheel.

Time
Indicate the current time. 

User interface (Less is More)
Due to all the features that must be packaged in such a small unit the system will have 5 3mm LED’s above the display to assist the rider to quickly determine the current selected mode.  The function of the three handlebar buttons can be set to suit the rider preference.  A Quick Select (QS) option will allow the rider to select between any number of options in any order.  This will ensure the least amount of button presses to access the major functions.  Eg. Up/Down will select distance/CAP only. A long press on Up/Dn will scroll through all options eg. To temporary show the speed in a restricted section.  A short press will re-select the QS option.  This option will allow the rider to use ONE unit only without reducing the navigation control. CAP heading is for instance only ‘valid’ for the first 100 odd meters after the ‘Tulip’ on the Roadbook.

GPS Waypoints (future feature)
If a GPS antenna is attached the system will allow the rider to add waypoints on the system if allowed.  The option to store the track in a GPX file as well as other GPS related options.

Testing and durability
The system will be subjected to a rigorous vibration and environmental test during development to ensure absolute lowest failure rate.  All possible design measures will be employed to ensure an unstressed unit for additional durability.

Availability warrantee and cost
Final proof of concept and preliminary testing must be completed by 31 January 2015.  The first system(s) must be ready for user evaluation by 28 Feb 2015.  First production units must be available 1st April 2015.  The first 10 units will carry a full replacement warrantee for one year. Future warrantee will cover factory defects only.  In order to reduce the setup cost for Rallying the unit without GPS antenna/features must retail for below R2 000.00 Vat incl.

Please feel free to contact us with any queries and comments.

The Rockfox Team
Adie
079 5243884
** SNAP **
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Offline JustBendIt

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2015, 06:32:07 pm »
If this thing does everything you say I will take 1 for sure - and will be happy to test it to - this looks like just what I am looking for - proudly South African

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Offline darthvader

Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 06:35:18 pm »
very interested!  I am mostly there, but if your unit is all integrated on one board, then I would take it.  How will you regulate the 12V from the bike? Directly inside the unit on the main board? ... or is that a trade secret  ;D ?
 

Offline XTFREAK

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 08:26:38 pm »
Sub. Interested.
 

Offline Hondsekierie

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 09:55:38 pm »
Subscribe :thumleft:
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Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2015, 11:21:33 pm »
Hi

sommer so bietjie ekstra info.

@dv, geen 'trade secrets' behalwe die programering.  :biggrin: Met my Dakkie het ek baie probleme met die regulator gehad,  ek het later gatvol geraak en 'n voltmeter opgesit.  Die 'charge volts' het tot so hoog as 18V gegaan. die 650Gs is lief om sy batery droog te kook as gevolg van 'over voltage'.  In my industriele stelsels gebruik ek twee regulators 12V en dan 5V.  Ek kan dan 'n 6 karakter 7 segment display met 168 high bright LED's SAAM laat brand sonder 'n heat sink.  Vir die projek sal ek dieselfde doen maar die 'deksel' onder aan die kassie is van aluminium en sal 'n heatsink vorm.  Ek gebruik (ook) die Arduino chip (Atmega 328) en ets my eie borde vir lae volume projekte.

Ons moet gesels, jy kan 'n eenheid kry vir 'debugging' in ruil vir die LCD display verskaffer en program interface.  Ek is al moeg gesoek na 'n plaaslike verskaffer vir my toetse. Watter grootte syfers is joune (20mm?)

Ok, here we go. I will 'sponsor' 4 units for debugging and evaluation.  The trick will be how to select the guinipigs?

Laastens, die kassie is 'n 3D print model wat ons dan in een of ander 'indestructable' resin gaan giet.  Die prototipe handvatsel eenheid word hierdie week gedoen.

Adie
P.S. Miskien moet ons Zille Villers een aand hier by die plot bymekaar kom om gedagtes te ruil.  Ek is altyd oop vir idees, en julle 'score' 'n R2000.00 produk  >:D


« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 11:30:40 pm by Weedkiller - Adie »
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Offline bonova

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 09:51:08 am »
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Offline markdiver

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 05:03:20 pm »
Very cool and very interested.  :thumleft:  JUst one question about the 5 LED lights.  Not sure how that could benefit as quick mode detection as it seems one would have to remember which is which, and then have to scroll through anyway  ??? 
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 06:40:38 pm »
CAP must give True North for rallying, I suppose that's something you can program?

I actually think that you are fitting too many functions.  I run 1 unit with the total stage distance only.  On the other unit, I use CAP and speed.  In terms of time, I only care to get to Start of Special on time.  After that, not again.  As far as total tank distance etc, I just don't care, if you run out of fuel, its game over.  I would like as few essentials as possible for the R2000, which is an awesome price.  My suggestion is to start with a more basic model, which is what we want at this point.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 08:34:51 pm by Bill the Bong »
 

Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 08:54:39 pm »
** Snip **
I actually think that you are fitting too many functions.  I run 1 unit with the total stage distance only.  On the other unit, I use CAP and speed.  In terms of time, I only care to get to Start of Special on time.  After that, not again.  As far as total tank distance etc, I just don't care, if you run out of fuel, its game over.  I would like as few essentials as possible for the R2000, which is an awesome price.  My suggestion is to start with a more basic model, which is what we want at this point.
** Snap **

Actually, except for the 'extra' Trip distance it is just the TWO ICO products in one. (Redundency) That is the beauty of electronics and programming.  To keep the cost down we will to the calcs on the heading as the GPS alone is around R 600.00.

A
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 11:02:52 am »
Next comment (I hope you see this as positive input and not an attempt to piss on your parade):  The CAP need to be able to be visible for extended periods, not just 100 m after the tulip (and how will it know there was a tulip).  You may get a CAP only for an off-piste section that could last many kilometres.  If there is a dune section, you typically get a CAP only to cross it.  At the end of the section there is usually a recognisable feature (post, tyres, drum, dam)
 

Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2015, 11:15:49 am »
** Snip **
.  To keep the cost down we will to the calcs on the heading as the GPS alone is around R 600.00.

A


I think this approach will limit you sales to South Africa as you will have to program a mean magnetic variation.  Lets look at the approximate route:

Kimberly -21 degrees
Border crossing point RSA / Bot -16
Border crossing Bot / Nam -13
Luderitz -17
Hondeklipbaai -22
Cape Town -24 degrees

There is an 11 degrees difference that will be problematic to compensate, you will have to give the rider a card to stick next to the display to do the mental calculations.  This used to be the case in the old days in aircraft with deviation and declination showed.
 

Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2015, 03:17:04 pm »
** snip **
I hope you see this as positive input and not an attempt to piss on your parade
** Snap **

THANKS, no relax, I thrive on criticism as it only make the product better.  I am a mechanical engineer and self taught programmer/electronics hobbyist also, never done navigation, so ALL INPUT will be evaluated.

Compass heading. 
We initially designed the system with a GPS for compass bearing.  Although I knew about the 3 North Poles I opted for the Magnetic compass to make the unit more affordable and compact. (did not do much research on the diff. between the two poles and thus assumed  (the mother of all fuckups) that it will be a 'relative' constant deviation.  It is actually not a REAL issue other than cost (R175 vs R650), so the cost will rise by about R500 (Unit and plugs).  I will still aim to produce it as cost effective as possible.

With respect to the 5 LEDs they are selectable during user setup and can be swithced off in Nav mode. 

** Snip**
The CAP need to be able to be visible for extended periods, not just 100 m after the tulip (and how will it know there was a tulip).  You may get a CAP only for an off-piste section that could last many kilometres.  If there is a dune section, you typically get a CAP only to cross it.  At the end of the section there is usually a recognisable feature (post, tyres, drum, dam)
** Snap **

As per your use it would still be usable as a single unit for CAP and distance only.  For your type of use the Quick Select buttons will be between CAP and Distance only.  You will for example pass the point (ITEM) on the roadbook and compare Tulip (Picture) to the real world. If there are a CAP heading you will press the QS button to select CAP heading.  If the CAP is valid for a short period only you will press QS again to display Distance as soon as the CAP use expire.  If the CAP is valid for a long stretch (crossing a pan) you will look at the Roadbook distance and Real features (Fence/Mountain etc) to get a 'general' bearing and estimate the distance.  At this point your priority would be determined by the distance.  If the next Item on the roadbook is say 5km away and your 'feature' will be visible for a few km you can select distance.  A single press on the QV (Quick View) will momentarily display the CAP to confirm your heading and maybe look for a new 'feature'.

REMEMBER. Two units (CAP and TRIP) is the ultimate solution but we want to make the startup cost lower and thus one unit with Quick options.

Shoot, I have braced myself. >:D

Adie




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Offline darthvader

Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2015, 03:22:01 pm »
Or, you could just add(for extra cost) a RS232 to TTL converter and read the NMEA sentences from the GPS directly on the micro controller, use the coordinate at the point to work out the deviation and use that constant as offset on the z-axis compass you are using.
 

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2015, 03:25:41 pm »
Nice one! Sub.
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Offline Soundboi

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2015, 04:21:51 pm »
 :sip:
But for me, it's like a night out with a porn star, every time I press that starter button. Schneller! Schneller! Tiefer! Ja, ich bin geil! Ich komme!  >:D

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2015, 04:33:54 pm »
** snip **
I hope you see this as positive input and not an attempt to piss on your parade
** Snap **

THANKS, no relax, I thrive on criticism as it only make the product better.  I am a mechanical engineer and self taught programmer/electronics hobbyist also, never done navigation, so ALL INPUT will be evaluated.

Compass heading.  
We initially designed the system with a GPS for compass bearing.  Although I knew about the 3 North Poles I opted for the Magnetic compass to make the unit more affordable and compact. (did not do much research on the diff. between the two poles and thus assumed  (the mother of all fuckups) that it will be a 'relative' constant deviation.  It is actually not a REAL issue other than cost (R175 vs R650), so the cost will rise by about R500 (Unit and plugs).  I will still aim to produce it as cost effective as possible.

With respect to the 5 LEDs they are selectable during user setup and can be swithced off in Nav mode.  

** Snip**
The CAP need to be able to be visible for extended periods, not just 100 m after the tulip (and how will it know there was a tulip).  You may get a CAP only for an off-piste section that could last many kilometres.  If there is a dune section, you typically get a CAP only to cross it.  At the end of the section there is usually a recognisable feature (post, tyres, drum, dam)
** Snap **

As per your use it would still be usable as a single unit for CAP and distance only.  For your type of use the Quick Select buttons will be between CAP and Distance only.  You will for example pass the point (ITEM) on the roadbook and compare Tulip (Picture) to the real world. If there are a CAP heading you will press the QS button to select CAP heading.  If the CAP is valid for a short period only you will press QS again to display Distance as soon as the CAP use expire.  If the CAP is valid for a long stretch (crossing a pan) you will look at the Roadbook distance and Real features (Fence/Mountain etc) to get a 'general' bearing and estimate the distance.  At this point your priority would be determined by the distance.  If the next Item on the roadbook is say 5km away and your 'feature' will be visible for a few km you can select distance.  A single press on the QV (Quick View) will momentarily display the CAP to confirm your heading and maybe look for a new 'feature'.

REMEMBER. Two units (CAP and TRIP) is the ultimate solution but we want to make the startup cost lower and thus one unit with Quick options.

Shoot, I have braced myself. >:D

Adie

\

Nice, if you go for the GPS unit, I'd suggest that you run it similar to the RMS ICO Rallye CAP http://www.rallymanagementservices.com/products/ico-rallye-cap, which doesn't use the wheel sensor at all, but gets the GPS  to provide the distance.  This removes the potential failure point of a cable, a sensor and a magnet.  The installation becomes instantly more user friendly to install and more compact.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 04:49:47 pm by Bill the Bong »
 

Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2015, 04:58:29 pm »
** SNIP **
Or, you could just add(for extra cost) a RS232 to TTL converter and read the NMEA sentences from the GPS directly on the micro controller, use the coordinate at the point to work out the deviation and use that constant as offset on the z-axis compass you are using.
** SNAP **

This got me thinking  :laughing4:
1. GPS  A GPS does not seems to have a Compass. It requires the unit to move in order to convert the co-oords of the two positions into the 'Bearing' (Tested the theory with a Garmin unit.)

** Start **
$GPRMC,161229.487,A,3723.2475,N,12158.3416,W,0.13,309.62,120598,,,A*10
Message ID $GPRMC  RMC protocol header
UTC Time 161229.487  hhmmss.sss
Status   A    A=data valid or V=data not valid
Latitude  3723.2475  ddmm.mmmm
Longitude 12158.3416  dddmm.mmmm
Speed Over Ground 0.13 knots  
Course Over Ground  309.62 degrees  True  <---------------**
** end **

2. A Cellphone got a Magnetic Compass AND a GPS.  It can thus give both headings.

NOW I remember. I chose the Mag Compass because it will give the heading even when stationary whereas the GPS must move at least 3meters or pick up different co-oords to do the 'Course' and then calc the True North.

In order to get FULL functionality We will need both the Mag compass (Stationary heading) and the GPS (True North when moving)  Fortunately it will only require 2 lines of code to select the heading type between moving and stationary.  The software already reads both devices.

this is getting interesting.  Keep it comming.

Adie



« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 05:19:11 pm by Weedkiller - Adie »
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Offline JAmBer

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Re: Locally developed Rally Navigation Eq.
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2015, 05:06:44 pm »
This is a great idea! I'm very interested as well.

I think the use of a GPS module is critical for compass auto calibration (or even just use the GPS heading itself).

As someone with super-bright LEDs on his bike at the moment, I can testify that they don't work too well if they're in direct sunlight. Depending on the angle of the sun, they can appear to be lit sometimes even when they're off. I'm not sure how much added value these would have, but if you've got spare pins on the ATMEGA, then why not?!

Do you think the GPS could be integrated into the unit (sit below the LCD? or on top of it, angled forwards etc)? It would be very attractive to have an integrated unit that just needs power and one connection to handlebar buttons.