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Offline JacoM

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501
« on: January 30, 2019, 11:24:07 am »
Question on oil:
the KTM standard (I think!) is Motorex cross power full synthetic
I can not get it off the shelf in Somerset West and considering now to change to Liquid Moly, full synthetic - both are 10W-50
Am I putting the engine or clutch at risk?
Bike was at 34 hour when I got it three weeks ago, and now due for oil change at 45hours
I like this bike - took it now twice to Macasser and also into Elgin mountains and it cured my passion for 2strokes....
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 11:24:33 am by JacoM »
 

Offline kelly007

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Re: 501
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 12:12:51 pm »
I can't see why not. Also the motul full synthetic is an option. Other option, I work in Somerset west but live in Cape town. Happy to bring motorex from ktm. Its expensive tho

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« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 12:13:26 pm by kelly007 »
 

Offline McKracken

Re: 501
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 03:32:54 pm »
Any oil that meets the specification for viscosity (the 10w50) and clutch friction standards (Jaso ma /ma2) will be fine. Synthetic oils derived from esters are more expensive but are a beer base oil. But for adv, probably not really essential
Yamaha PW 80,  '92 Fantic Key Roo 249, 98' Suzuki XF650 Freewind, 95' BMW R1100GS, 17' Triumph Tiger XCX, '16 Husqvana 501
 

Offline DavidMorrisXp

Re: 501
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 05:56:44 pm »
Question on oil:
the KTM standard (I think!) is Motorex cross power full synthetic
I can not get it off the shelf in Somerset West and considering now to change to Liquid Moly, full synthetic - both are 10W-50
Am I putting the engine or clutch at risk?
Bike was at 34 hour when I got it three weeks ago, and now due for oil change at 45hours
I like this bike - took it now twice to Macasser and also into Elgin mountains and it cured my passion for 2strokes....

Can Hanno at Mad Macs not get it for you?

021 852 4851
Check out my YouTube channel, please like & subscribe

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUyKBSrBu-N5oswrTlAhphQ
 

Offline BuRP

Re: 501
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 01:55:13 pm »
Any oil that meets the specification for viscosity (the 10w50) and clutch friction standards (Jaso ma /ma2) will be fine. Synthetic oils derived from esters are more expensive but are a beer base oil. But for adv, probably not really essential

Treacherous fields trodden here - that's only part of an oil classification, the actual important stuff is completely missing.
So you'll put in recycled P&P oil with the right viscosity, and of course this rubbish won't be detrimental for your clutch?
Be your own guest but I will not.
The prescribed oil classification with the right (prescribed) viscosity is more like it, and although not a given this will likely be a real synthetic oil (for this bike).
Any Jaso brurb is just an option, it's a Japan-only spec.

But believe noone but the Horse's Mouth : https://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-classifications/oil-categories

Or here? https://www.oilspecifications.org/
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020
 

Offline McKracken

Re: 501
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 02:51:31 pm »
Any oil that meets the specification for viscosity (the 10w50) and clutch friction standards (Jaso ma /ma2) will be fine. Synthetic oils derived from esters are more expensive but are a beer base oil. But for adv, probably not really essential

Treacherous fields trodden here - that's only part of an oil classification, the actual important stuff is completely missing.
So you'll put in recycled P&P oil with the right viscosity, and of course this rubbish won't be detrimental for your clutch?
Be your own guest but I will not.
The prescribed oil classification with the right (prescribed) viscosity is more like it, and although not a given this will likely be a real synthetic oil (for this bike).
Any Jaso brurb is just an option, it's a Japan-only spec.

But believe noone but the Horse's Mouth : https://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-classifications/oil-categories

Or here? https://www.oilspecifications.org/

While I realize this is an oil thread,maybe my reply was slightly unclear. My Husky 501 manual specifically states that oils must meet SAE viscosity standards set out, as well as JASO T903 MA standards. A further explanation is given later in the manual as to why these standards are required. I've attached them verbatim.
My reply maybe wasn't clear, I was answering the OP's question: So long as all standards are met, brand names are just brand names. Using non synthetic oil is not meeting standards and would not be a good idea. Jaso is mentioned as using the correct SAE viscosity grade car oil will be bad for clutches as they contain friction modifiers. JASO spec oils are designed to work with wet clutches.
As for JASO being Japan only spec, It is acceped worldwide, I have a British bike that states the same, just as SAE are and american based standards body, they have been adopted worldwide.
Your oilspecs . org link actually has a page explaining JASO standards if you have a look
Yamaha PW 80,  '92 Fantic Key Roo 249, 98' Suzuki XF650 Freewind, 95' BMW R1100GS, 17' Triumph Tiger XCX, '16 Husqvana 501
 

Offline BuRP

Re: 501
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 03:37:30 pm »
Strange that only Jaso is mentioned and not API - and mentioning only viscosities is pertinently wrong (shoddy manual!).
But go here and see for yourself: https://www.chapmoto.com/bel-ray-works-thumper-racing-4t-10w50-synthetic-ester-blend-engine-oil-parent-344-4162
Any API SM as well as Jaso MA2 oil with the prescribed viscosity will do then!

Oh and Kracken, API rules, Jaso follows, simply due to the fact that the former sets the standards for the world, and the latter only for Japanese vehicles.... bitofadiff if you ask me  :P
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 03:43:03 pm by BuRP »
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020
 

Offline McKracken

Re: 501
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 05:30:21 pm »
Sorry If I am hijacking the thread, but I am learning something here.
BuRP, correct me if I am wrong, but from what reading I have done, the API and Jaso are not equivalent specs:
API SN oil may or may not have friction modifiers, which is a big deal for us  wet clutched motorcyclists.
API SN without the friction modifiers (like the bel ray thumper above) may be Jaso MA complaint.
 But for wet clutches using an API SN that isn't also Jaso MA2 would mean there are additives that are not suitable for the clutches (again the friction modifiers)
From what I can tell the JASO Mx is specifically for motorcycles with wet clutches and the API Sx is a more general standard for cars and bikes.
Yamaha PW 80,  '92 Fantic Key Roo 249, 98' Suzuki XF650 Freewind, 95' BMW R1100GS, 17' Triumph Tiger XCX, '16 Husqvana 501
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: 501
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 05:38:35 pm »
.
 

Offline BuRP

Re: 501
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 06:41:02 pm »
McK,

API & Jaso are parallel gradings.
As mentioned the world (not kidding) adheres to API and Japan to Jaso.
Many oils only have an API grading, for reason to obtain also a Jaso one is costly... and if their marketshare is deemd too small then 'f@kit, we'll skipit'.
Oh, yes, also getting an API grade ain't free, the Wet van Transvaal applies also here  ;)
Normally a manufacturer will list both specs for the oil they recommend, but by what you posted above it seems that Katoom does not.
Quite frankly I find that disturbing as well as unfair, for clearly this is a punt to push their 'fave', in this case Bel Ray.
That used to be Motortex but apparently something somewhere sometime went sour, and now a new fave is present.
Why?
We live in a world of beancounters, and no doubt Katoom will get some kickback from recommending this 'fave' oil.
Do you now have to buy Bel Ray?

If you read here and you think so then you didn't get an iota of what's in this thread, so for you "yes, otherwise it will break!"
For those who can relate if not deduce there's no need to add.
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020
 

Offline BuRP

Re: 501
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 06:47:02 pm »
Rather than edit I'll add this.
Oil with friction modifiers - and this is the stuff which your wet clutch does not like! - are clearly marked as such!
"Energy Saving engine oil" or something alike, you'll see it on the tin.
Friction Modifiers actually work, and yes, one can get fuel savings when using it.
But cars outnumber bikes by a staggering factor, so few warn bikers not to use this stuff for their wet clutch bikes.
But it's simple enough: if you can read this you also can read the label  :P
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020
 

Offline BuRP

Re: 501
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 06:52:38 pm »
But for wet clutches using an API SN that isn't also Jaso MA2 would mean there are additives that are not suitable for the clutches (again the friction modifiers)

You're putting me on right?
Pull the other one....  :biggrin:
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020
 

Offline McKracken

Re: 501
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 07:10:16 pm »
Clearly there's a miscommunication somewhere. We're  largely  saying the same thing. I'm definitely not interested in the brand's recommended by manufacturers. ( I'm always weary of advertising that isn't designed to look like advertising)
I'm talking specifically, the specification for API SN does not specify that friction modifiers are or are not used. That is to say that two oils, can both be API SN grade, one with friction modifiers and one without. One would be suitable for use in bikes, one not. In terms of  standards (and not broad marketing statements like 'improves fuel economy') the jaso ma and ma2 standard will definitely not have the unsuitable friction modifiers for bikes.
Hence I say that they aren't totally equivalent.
As for API standards, I have not seen any in my  modern bikes manuals, but they all state jaso standards. Hence leading with that.

But in practical terms we are in agreement, check the specs, and use what is meant to be used.
Yamaha PW 80,  '92 Fantic Key Roo 249, 98' Suzuki XF650 Freewind, 95' BMW R1100GS, 17' Triumph Tiger XCX, '16 Husqvana 501
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: 501
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 08:51:58 pm »
API & Jaso are parallel gradings.

Surely not.  Did a quick search and Jaso seems to be bike specific.

JASO T 904 : 2006
MOTORCYCLE - MOTORCYCLES - FOUR-STROKE CYCLE GASOLINE ENGINE OILS - FRICTION PROPERTIES TEST FOR THE CLUTCH SYSTEMS


 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: 501
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 08:53:00 pm »
Rather than edit I'll add this.
Oil with friction modifiers - and this is the stuff which your wet clutch does not like! - are clearly marked as such!
"Energy Saving engine oil" or something alike, you'll see it on the tin.
Friction Modifiers actually work, and yes, one can get fuel savings when using it.
But cars outnumber bikes by a staggering factor, so few warn bikers not to use this stuff for their wet clutch bikes.
But it's simple enough: if you can read this you also can read the label  :P

Surely you can't use deduction that if an oil does not say 'energy saving' then it is fine to use in a bike?
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: 501
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2019, 09:02:32 pm »
It seems we need to take care selecting between Jaso MA and Jaso MB also

https://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: 501
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2019, 09:16:47 pm »
Question on oil:
the KTM standard (I think!) is Motorex cross power full synthetic
I can not get it off the shelf in Somerset West and considering now to change to Liquid Moly, full synthetic - both are 10W-50
Am I putting the engine or clutch at risk?
Bike was at 34 hour when I got it three weeks ago, and now due for oil change at 45hours
I like this bike - took it now twice to Macasser and also into Elgin mountains and it cured my passion for 2strokes....

Seems the Motorex and Liqui Moly are both Jaso MA2  thus compatible.

Motorex is a API SL while the Liqui Moly is either SL or SN (the latter I think is a higher standard oil)

https://www.motorex.com/en-us/moto-line/motor-oil/cross-power-4t-sae-10w50-jaso-ma2/
https://shop.liqui-moly.co.za/motorbike-synthetic-4t-10w50-street-435461.html?cat=39633
https://shop.liqui-moly.co.za/img/sku/1502.pdf
 

Offline BiG DoM

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Re: 501
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2019, 11:00:33 pm »
Liqui Moly is excellent and compatible imo.
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Offline BuRP

Re: 501
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2019, 12:21:33 pm »
API & Jaso are parallel gradings.

Surely not.  Did a quick search and Jaso seems to be bike specific.

Yes they are, they're both oil grading systems.
Also yes, Jaso is bike specific..... so?

Surely you can't use deduction that if an oil does not say 'energy saving' then it is fine to use in a bike?

Deduction?
I is STATED on the tin if FM's are added, hence becomes a Fact!

(and not broad marketing statements like 'improves fuel economy')

Not broad but very specific, perhaps you missed my "Friction Modifiers actually work, and yes, one can get fuel savings when using it" ?
It's even proven by the fact that your clutch will slip!
It's the only reason why you should not use it in a wet-clutch bike.... but by all means use it in dry-clutch machines, BMW & MotoGuzzi spring to mind here.



I lurv oilfreds.
Everyone has an opinion (me definitely included, and no, I'm hardly an oilboffin), and every time there seem to be people who think there's car oils and bike oils.
If you look at the labels then this seems to be the case: powerful clever marketing indeed.
That's of course the reason why I use Skip in my washing machine, because Omo's for handwashing  :P
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: 501
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2019, 08:34:40 am »

Surely you can't use deduction that if an oil does not say 'energy saving' then it is fine to use in a bike?

Deduction?
I is STATED on the tin if FM's are added, hence becomes a Fact!

If it says friction modifier added then yes it is a fact that it is included.
If it says nothing then you can't deduct that no FM is included.  It might me but just not stated on the tin.

When it says 'energy saving' you are also deducting that a FM is added. Adding words like 'energy saving' on a tin of oil means nothing.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:36:37 am by Sláinte Mhaith »