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Offline JonW

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Medical Facilities at Bashes
« on: March 29, 2011, 11:10:43 am »
In light of the recent accident at the WC Bash and the comments made.....

Should it be mandatory that the organizers of any Bash be responsible for providing adequate/reasonable Medical and Emergency facilities at their Bash?

What level of facility would you say is reasonable?

Would you be prepared to pay for these facilities?

Why restrict medical facilities to just bashes, what about normal organized outrides into remote areas?

your thoughts..........   :dontknow:
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Offline Heimer

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 11:19:50 am »
I do think what can be done is to have a better roll-call in place.

Some people stay in camp, some do their own rides and some do the organised out-rides.

Even if you are accountable for your own well-being and safety, it is good if the organisers know what your plans are / will be on a given day, so you can perhaps be helped if you don't show after a certain time
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 11:20:49 am by Heimer »

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Offline edgy

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 11:39:10 am »
I think that a Wilddog bas h must be seen as a private ride, you go of your own accord and take your own chances. I like the fact that one can come and go as you please! Theres nothing wild about too much organization and rules! :biggrin:
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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2011, 11:41:44 am »
Jaaaa...leave the organisers out of it???
If i had to explain you would not understand anyway......
 

Offline AntonW

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 11:49:00 am »
I think that a Wilddog bas h must be seen as a private ride, you go of your own accord and take your own chances. I like the fact that one can come and go as you please! Theres nothing wild about too much organization and rules! :biggrin:

I fully agree, where does the organisers responsibility start and stop, from the time you leave home or if you leave camp to go to the shops? You must be responsible for yourself, that is why riding with a mate or 2 is a good idea.
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Offline RobC

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2011, 11:50:51 am »
I think that a Wilddog bas h must be seen as a private ride, you go of your own accord and take your own chances. I like the fact that one can come and go as you please! Theres nothing wild about too much organization and rules! :biggrin:
Tend to agree here... make sure you have ICE and a good medical plan.
Asking organizers to ensure medical casevac facilities is like asking the government to ensure that no natural disasters happen.
One should always prepare for emergencies yourself... that way you become a survivor, not a victim. :mwink:
BTW the average cost of just one ambulance with EMT staff can run up to 20 Grand, depending on the location etc of the event.
What an organizer could do is to let the local EMT/Hospitals know that a gathering is planned for x date/days so that they can be more prepared in case there is an incident. That way the EMT staff will be on readiness and not off on leave... that would help with response times.
 

Offline JC

Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2011, 11:54:47 am »
If I wanted a babysitter I would have gone on a Harley ride  >:D

wilddogs isn't a bike club or a paid up organisation. I do not expect anything from anybody for my safety. Anything received is from a fellow wilddog, not from "wilddogs.za.net"

It is important to make that destinction

What is reasonable: a backup vehicle and sweeper for a bash

Would you be prepared to pay for these facilities:  No, then it will become overly regulated and all legal implications and people covering their arses not to be sued AND people telling you how to ride and being carefull, etc.
 

Offline DSNewbie

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2011, 11:58:57 am »
Is a bash not merely an organized party?

In this case with the option of doing an outride with like minded people, having fun, getting advice from more experienced riders, everyone within their own skill-set and on their own responsibility.

You can over-organize, which will add too much cost and risk for the organizers, which may result in less fun for the party goers.

Everyone should know the risks involved with riding a bike to remote places, if you do not want to accept the risk, stay at home and read the other people's ride reports.
 

Offline bradleys

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 11:59:56 am »
All the bashes I go to I always have mymed kit with me ,I dont charge one cent ,I use my own supplies and pay for it,one this last bash I easily went through R100 worth of equipment,I do this for my fellow riders as i care for them.So just make sure I am at the next bash :thumleft:


Maybe I should charge next time 8)
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Offline Battlestar

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2011, 12:02:51 pm »
I think that a Wilddog bas h must be seen as a private ride, you go of your own accord and take your own chances. I like the fact that one can come and go as you please! Theres nothing wild about too much organization and rules! :biggrin:

I fully agree, where does the organisers responsibility start and stop, from the time you leave home or if you leave camp to go to the shops? You must be responsible for yourself, that is why riding with a mate or 2 is a good idea.
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Offline Battlestar

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 12:04:10 pm »
All the bashes I go to I always have mymed kit with me ,I dont charge one cent ,I use my own supplies and pay for it,one this last bash I easily went through R100 worth of equipment,I do this for my fellow riders as i care for them.So just make sure I am at the next bash :thumleft:


Maybe I should charge next time 8)
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Offline Lourens ツ

Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2011, 12:08:45 pm »
Maybe just as a rule any bash attendee must accept a standard disclaimer of any responsibility of safety/theft/etc. by organisers.  Where are our lawyers?

The disclaimer can then be posted in the first post of the organising thread.
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Offline Grrrr....

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2011, 12:18:06 pm »
Maybe just as a rule any bash attendee must accept a standard disclaimer of any responsibility of safety/theft/etc. by organisers.  Where are our lawyers?

The disclaimer can then be posted in the first post of the organising thread.

We all signed disclaimers on arrival. I agree that the organizers can only do so much.

This was my first bash and must say I was highly impressed with the work and effort that went into it. And unlike rallies it is more like a organized party.

It is the nature of the beast that when out 'adventure riding' that we will probably be in a isolated place. It is the risk we all have to take to enjoy those isolated places.


Offline EtienneXplore

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 12:21:59 pm »
All the bashes I go to I always have mymed kit with me ,I dont charge one cent ,I use my own supplies and pay for it,one this last bash I easily went through R100 worth of equipment,I do this for my fellow riders as i care for them.So just make sure I am at the next bash :thumleft:


Maybe I should charge next time 8)

Good on you bradleys  :thumleft: :thumleft:

For the Gauteng Bashes we can make use of our very own nurse, riding a 1200  :biggrin:

Maybe she will subcontract to assist with the EC and WC Bashes too  :3some:


Offline BOER!

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2011, 12:24:34 pm »
All the bashes I go to I always have mymed kit with me ,I dont charge one cent ,I use my own supplies and pay for it,one this last bash I easily went through R100 worth of equipment,I do this for my fellow riders as i care for them.So just make sure I am at the next bash :thumleft:


Maybe I should charge next time 8)

Good on you bradleys  :thumleft: :thumleft:

For the Gauteng Bashes we can make use of our very own nurse, riding a 1200  :biggrin:

Maybe she will subcontract to assist with the EC and WC Bashes too  :3some:



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Offline ktmmer

Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 12:30:20 pm »
Well done Bradleys!   :thumleft:
 

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2011, 12:34:40 pm »
All the bashes I go to I always have mymed kit with me ,I dont charge one cent ,I use my own supplies and pay for it,one this last bash I easily went through R100 worth of equipment,I do this for my fellow riders as i care for them.So just make sure I am at the next bash :thumleft:


Maybe I should charge next time 8)

Probably quite a few headache tablets. :peepwall:

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Offline Dunce

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2011, 12:45:19 pm »
Yip, we go to these bashes with the knowledge that you can fall and get hurt.
So make sure you are covered by yourself.
The costs to put a 24hr standby medical package in place is very high.
It also gets anal and regulated and that's allot of crap.
We ride for the freedom and take the risks.
I think it was well run and that the guys like Gavin that provided a great service out of their goodness of their hearts do an excellent job. Thanks Gavin, Pete, and all the others, like the back up bakkie drivers (Rusty) for collecting all the broken bikes too.
So the answer to the question from me is NO!
 

Offline Kerritz

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2011, 12:46:39 pm »
Knoppies.....ek weet nie of ek wil he daai Nurse moet op my werk nie  :o :pot:
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Offline Kamanya

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Re: Medical Facilities at Bashes
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2011, 12:47:53 pm »
I have my phone programmed with the info I or others need. I have a good medical coverage that will airlift or ambulate me out. I make sure I know who is a little up on medical on the ride or who has the medipac.

On long trips I carry a heavy painkiller injection, pain tabs, some good anti-inflammatory tabs, re-hydrate and water.

Other than that I really don't want it to be too organised. It gets complicated and expensive.

If shit happens, well then, I made my informed choices.



Having said that, having been involved in the adventure business a long time ago, I learnt some things. On a Bash there are some who are ignorant of the dangers - (noob pillions and noob riders) and for them some forewarning should be given.

I believe that there is a legal precedent called, "duty of care" or a delict. E.g. If I invited people to come join me on a paddle to a river of known high graded difficulty and they are obviously noobs with little or no experience or the right equipment and I know this and they come short, then I can be legally challenged under the duty of care. The law comes from the concept of good neighborliness.

Even though I charged nothing for the trip, I may find civil proceedings against me through them or their dependents.

From Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delict

Quote
The South African Legal System also uses the law of delict as opposed to torts. The South African common law elaborates a set of general principles in terms of which liability for loss is allocated. This should be seen in contrast to the Anglo American common law approach which has distinct tort actions, each with their own peculiar elements which require satisfaction before an action is founded. The delictual elements that have to be satisfied before a claimant can be successful are:

Conduct - which may consist of either a commission (positive action) or an omission (the failure to take required action), though liability for an omission will arise only where there is a duty to act.

Wrongfulness - the conduct complained of must be legally reprehensible. This is usually assessed with reference to the legal convictions of the community.

Fault - save in limited cases where liability is 'strict' (i.e. where neither intention nor negligence is required for liability) once the wrongfulness of the conduct is established, it is necessary to establish whether the person being sued acted intentionally or negligently, either of which is sufficient for liability to attach.

Damage - finally the conduct must have resulted in some form of loss or harm to the claimant in order for them to have a claim. This damage can take the form of patrimonial loss (a reduction in a person's financial position, such as is the case where the claimant incurred medical expenses) or non-patrimonial damages (damages that cannot be related to a person's financial estate, but compensation for something like pain and suffering.)

Causation - the conduct that the claimant complains of must have caused damage, in this regard both factual causation and legal causation are assessed. The purpose of legal causation is to limit the scope of factual causation, if the consequence of the action is too remote to have been foreseen by an objective, reasonable person the defendant will escape liability.

It is possible that a single set of facts may give rise to both a contractual and a delictual claim.
Public policy considerations are evident in the setting of the limits to each of the requirements.

So on future bashes to avoid being seen as negligent or a bad neighbour so to speak, a fair, advertised, balanced warning of the dangers involved and appropriate ways to reduce ones exposure to should be enough.



Indemnities.... An interesting side point is that you can have people sign many and lengthy indemnities, but they will mean nothing if negligence can be proved. An indemnity does not indemnify the dependents against negligence on the part of the operator. At most, an indemnity is a informational about the dangers of participating.


Maybe the legal eagles can correct me?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 12:48:33 pm by Kamanya »
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

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