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Author Topic: R1200GSA erratic idle, misfire, pre-ignition, detonation, ping, knock and stall  (Read 18305 times)

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Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Hi guys, I see similar topics on this has been discussed here with various remedies being suggested. I thought I would start a new thread with my experience as it differs slightly, please excuse me if anything is duplicated elsewhere. BMW seem to think this is isolated and I am "the only one experiencing this".

I purchased a new 2011 R1200GS Adventure from Hamman Motorrad on the 3rd of November 2011. When I brought it in for the 1 000km service a couple of days later I mentioned to them that it was “backfiring but without the noise” as I was not sure what was happening at the time. I later learnt this was “pre-ignition” (or detonation) and "pinging" (or knocking). Occasionally the motorcycle would in fact stall on this pre-ignition. I was left in a dangerous situation when this happened while I was about to pull away at a traffic light, a truck behind me almost drove into me. I had on occasions also experienced where on a throttle blip before I downshift a gear it would pre-ignite and stall the motor, however as I merely would release the clutch the engine would restart as a result of the forward motion. Should this happen on a mountain pass on a wet road surface while approaching a corner it could end with disastrous results. It was also very noticeable when riding in traffic and blipping the throttle to alert motorists of my presence, or when riding technical obstacles and having to feather the clutch and throttle.

I have had the motorcycle back with them to investigate and remedy this problem many times. They have updated MOSS software, synced the throttle bodies, adjusted the cams manually and with the tool, tested the knock sensor, tested the lamda sensor, tested the cam position sensor, and most recently the cam chain tensioners were replaced. The problem persists.

I have previously owned a 2004 and a 2007 R1200GS and neither displayed these symptoms.

Should this pre-ignition continue for prolonged periods I am sure it will result in long term damage to the engine, eg. burnt valves and/or piston and this could be post the 2 year warrantee period.

In this video clip you can hear the engine response to a throttle blip. I blip the throttle when I downshift or just before I engage gear and release the clutch when I pull off. On occasions the engine will knock, ping or even stall. Here I try and demonstrate how the engine responds, listen carefully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty4fGRF86gc

Also, since the 10 000km service the fuel consumption has gone up somewhat. The HUD indicator now displays an average of 6.5l/100km’s, it was 5.9l/100km's before. I did 429km’s (with 9km’s remaining) on a full tank. My second tank went onto reserve at 389km’s and indicated 55km’s remaining. While riding very conservatively on my 3rd tank I went onto reserve at around 440km's with 43km's remaining. I could get almost 600km’s on a tank previously. I suspect a fuel map that made the run richer was installed with the software update.

I was able to simulate something interesting yesterday for the first time. This after it again stalled as I was about to pull away at a traffic light, and again I was almost driven over by the vehicle behind me. This is the second time this has happened to me. Below is a video clip where I can demonstrate to you what happens if I twist the throttle very slightly off idle. I was able to replicate this a few times to some colleagues at work. I did turn the ignition off and on to reset the computer and it still behaved the same. Listen carefully to the engine idle while watching the rev counter, you will hear the erratic 'fast idle' and pre-ignition (and ping/knock) and then it stalled. I did not change the throttle position nor touch any switches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-8ELUYGie4&feature=youtu.be

On occasions as I am standing at a traffic light in neutral I have slight pressure applied to the throttle, very slight, and then I notice the erratic idle and knock start, as I think the engine is about to stall my instinct says to me to give the throttle a quick twist and then the engine stalls.

I have escalated this matter with BMW SA and BMW Germany and await their response. If you also experience this or know of anyone that is please let me know.

Thank you
Kevin
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\
R1200GS-WP

EDIT: As there has been a lot of talk and very useful information shared across these forums I am referencing them here as well fyi

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305695
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753622
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=100479.0
http://bmwmotorcycleclubcape.co.za/2011-r1200gsa-misfire-or-stall
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 11:52:27 am by CandyMan_ZA »
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline Jughead

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Where in the EC are you?
I came here to drink milk and kick arse!  And i've just finished my milk.
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Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Where in the EC are you?

Not, WC, fixed my profile  ::)
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline schummie64

Take it to Johnny at Auto Atlantic. That will fix it.
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Offline Jughead

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Ok then.

While the motor is idling, spray some "Quick Start" or a similar product between the throttle bodies and the cylinder heads, basically around the mating surfaces of the rubber intake manifolds.

To me it sounds like it is sucking false air somewhere.  You will immediately hear a change in RPM if you have found the problem spot with the spray.
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Offline DirtCopper

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Online ClimbingTurtle

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I had a similar problem with my 2010 GSA last year - pre-ignition backfire when I blip the throttle on a down-shift and then it would often cut out. Happened on Breedtsnke numerous times, 2-up - not amused....
Took it to Lyndhurst and they had it plugged in the whole day - reset the cams, re-mapped - eventually did a manual check of the cams IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER - and apparently discovered that whie the cam gaps were correct, they were out of sync with each other. They re-set them manually and it's been fine ever since.

I must stress that I am not a BMW mechanic, so they may have been strinning me along, but maybe give Lyndhurst a call - I can PM you my registration number if it would help?
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Offline CandyMan_ZA

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I had a similar problem with my 2010 GSA last year - pre-ignition backfire when I blip the throttle on a down-shift and then it would often cut out. Happened on Breedtsnke numerous times, 2-up - not amused....
Took it to Lyndhurst and they had it plugged in the whole day - reset the cams, re-mapped - eventually did a manual check of the cams IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER - and apparently discovered that whie the cam gaps were correct, they were out of sync with each other. They re-set them manually and it's been fine ever since.

I must stress that I am not a BMW mechanic, so they may have been strinning me along, but maybe give Lyndhurst a call - I can PM you my registration number if it would help?

The cams of my bike were manually adjusted, several times and within a few weeks when it went back they were out again, there is a special BMW tool used to align them with each other and when this tool is used a couple of weeks later they had shifted again. Hence the cam tensioner was replaced. Not sure if they have shifted again since, the bike needs to go back to have this checked out.
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline Duke916

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Please keep us posted on this , I would like to hear what the fix is   :deal:
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Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Please keep us posted on this , I would like to hear what the fix is   :deal:

So I shall. I was contacted by BMW SA yesterday, they requested "1 day to gather all the facts" and they will get back to me today with a plan of action. I look forward to hearing what that plan is  :deal:

In the meantime while you wait, observe some more entertaining erratic idle sounds by the 12GSA... :toothy1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJvvrKzHwcI&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huE_HCJJLjA&feature=plcp
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Some more feedback,

I just returned from Donford Motorrad, BMW HO requested I take my bike there for an inspection. Neil Berry was kind enough to loan me a 2012 GSA while they inspect mine. I can report back the following,

1.   The average fuel consumption indicated on the Donford GSA is 5.9/100km this is what mine was before they loaded the new software now it is 6.6l/100km
2.   The Donford GSA has more power, at least my butt dyno tells me that
3.   The Donford GSA also pings when riding at 4500rpm (+/- 125km/h) and I accelerate quickly
4.   The Donford GSA also detonates/pre-ignites/knocks (not sure what it is?) when at idle and the throttle is blipped
5.   The Donford GSA also idles erratically and stalls when the throttle is slightly opened (+/- 1%)

Video of the Donford GSA available below.

Idle with throttle at +/- 1% open
&feature=youtu.be

Idle again, at +/- 1% throttle, after switching ignition off and on.
&feature=youtu.be

Blipping the throttle


So, is this an issue with all DOHC R1200GS Adventures in SA only? If so, why is this the case? If this is “by design” and “normal” behaviour I would like BMW to confirm this in writing and indicate there will be no long term damage as a result.

I will continue to hound them, even if it means doing so through the NCC. I have been informed by too many other riders in SA that have/are also experiencing this and BMW fail to come up with a solution or just refuse to do anything about it.

I will update this thread when I have more information.







/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline BlingKing

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Offline CandyMan_ZA

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See the below thread - it will fix it!

http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=90052.0

Hi BK, I agree the chances are very good this is a fuel mapping issue and a PC will sort it out but I am not prepared to pay R4000 for something that will 'work around' their issue that they can so easily fix with a working map, in any event my bike is only 6 months old and still under warranty so I cannot fit it.  :deal:
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Offline buzzlightyear

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You definitely have pinging going on there. Maybe the idle is too low or the tps is shot? Funny that the loanbike does the same...
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Offline Heimer

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You should never have sold the 2007 GS model.

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Offline Goose

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See the below thread - it will fix it!

http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=90052.0

Hi BK, I agree the chances are very good this is a fuel mapping issue and a PC will sort it out but I am not prepared to pay R4000 for something that will 'work around' their issue that they can so easily fix with a working map, in any event my bike is only 6 months old and still under warranty so I cannot fit it.  :deal:

ABSOLUTELY ..... what I still cannot understand is when I had the same issue... everyone told me to stop moaning and just spend the additional R4k to get the bike to work properly....  FFS............. where does this mentality come from??


Some VERY interesting news though boys!!!

I have made contact with a UK chap that remaps/re-programs the GS/GSA's ECU.
Basically what they do is read the data, alter the Air/Fuel ratio from the VERY lean 14.7:1 to the more acceptable 13.2:1 ... and guess what.... NO pinging/backfiring/overheating problems.. solved!

No Power Commander, Wunderlicht unit or aftermarket products needed to "make the bike work" - it will run as it should (stuff the EU)

Will keep all informed - trying to sort out a deal   :thumleft:
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Offline Alan

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Hey Goose,

Please keep us informed, and with regards to deployment. Mine's a 2007 model, seems to run fine, just not happy with the fuel consumption, but then I also can't compare as I have no previous experience. Mine DID have an AM on which i took off not too long ago.

cheers

Alan
PS: I'm also still wanting a replacement Strip Fuel Sensor for my 2007 GSA..
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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You should never have sold the 2007 GS model.

I agree :thumbsup:
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Hey Goose,

Please keep us informed, and with regards to deployment. Mine's a 2007 model, seems to run fine, just not happy with the fuel consumption, but then I also can't compare as I have no previous experience. Mine DID have an AM on which i took off not too long ago.

cheers

Alan
PS: I'm also still wanting a replacement Strip Fuel Sensor for my 2007 GSA..

This is not an issue with the SOHC engines, it only happens with the 2010 and newer DOHC engines.
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline tonys

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Hi Kevin

I have an August 2011 GSA with 21,000km on the clock.

I don't think I've got the symptoms/problems your videos show, but I'm not sure as I wear earplugs  :P and have not really concentrated on listening closely to the motor. My bike has however never stalled unexpectantly.

I'll try the idle and blip test and let you know how it goes.

PS I assume the motor should be at operating temp before doing the tests?
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