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Author Topic: Bikes on N1  (Read 2333 times)

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Offline vigilant

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2012, 08:57:03 am »
Sadly that is so true for most of the car drivers.  ;D

who climb on bikes to get to work .....


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Offline Mark Hardy

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2012, 09:26:52 am »
Sadly that is so true for most of the car drivers.  ;D

who climb on bikes to get to work .....


Beebop  :thumleft:

(the cowboy type?)

 ???
 

Offline vigilant

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2012, 09:57:30 am »
???

I ride along every day, and one day there's a new guy. Yesterday that guy was in a car. He still thinks like a car, and you can see it in the way he rides. Especially when he passes me in EL, then swerves across to an offramp without checking first, making me take evasive action. That kind of thing :)
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Offline roxenz

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2012, 10:37:52 am »
Vigilant, I too saw you (and another) standing next to a bike on the bridge.  This would have been about 8:30. Interesting numbers (more bikes than I would have guessed!).  After an earlier forum discussion (more like a blow-up) on RHS EL riding or not, I counted for several weeks.  Just on my daily commute from 14th Ave to Marlboro exit (usually 35 minutes). The proportion of EL riders varied a lot on a daily basis, but averaged around 65% of bikes being in the RHS EL.  This is only so during peak traffic. Wherever / whenever the traffic thinned out again, almost all bikes would merge back into traffic.  The odd exception would be a superbike screaming down the EL at way above legal speed.  So my summary would be that most bikers "migrate" to where they feel themselves safest, given the prevailing conditions. Obviously, different guys have different opinions of where / when they feel safest.  You and I disagree, for I sometimes do use the RHS EL, based on my own experience and perception of the prevailing conditions. That's life, I guess.  I only wish for to ride carefully and arrive safely!
 

Offline vigilant

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2012, 11:57:41 am »
Roxenz thanks. The "other" was the good Vanessa from ER24, who has taken an interest, due to the unreasonably high numbers of EL lane incidents.

Quote
Wherever / whenever the traffic thinned out again, almost all bikes would merge back into traffic.

Yes, so instead of being in tune with the traffic, when traffic slows, you don't.
As i understand ... our best chances of survival lies in staying at the same pace as traffic, if only slightly faster, but the same differential speed. ie:

cars at 0 = bike at 40
cars at 40 = bike at 80
cars at 80 = bike at 120

When you lane split the whole route, you follow the above quite closely, but when you pull into the EL, that ratio changes, and it is your perceptions that are out of synch. That's my point.

The other thing is even simpler:
If i follow the above guide, any car hit will be at +- 40km/h difference, which is probably survivable. Same accident at a differential speed of 80 ... not so much.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 11:59:15 am by vigilant »
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Offline Ortos

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2012, 12:30:57 pm »
So usually the main debate is about lane splitting being legal??Now we all want to use the emergency lane??Surely the name says it all?Fark no wonder cagers get pissed with us ,they got no idea where to look for us,some ou's lane splitting,then the next in the right El and then the next in the left EL. ???
Amen to that, sort off self inflicted that one, I commute every day Centurion to Bryanston and I try miss the highway but when my wife commute with I have no choice. Stick to the fast lane and stay the faark awake! anticipate some twatwaffle in a cage doing something doff and you should survive. Simple "ride to ride another day".
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Offline whitedelight

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2012, 01:37:39 pm »
My route in cape town is not the worst,thankfully.But now and again you get the odd one in the EL.
Was in the cage a few weeks back stuck oin the N1 outbound and noticed a lot of bikers making use of the EL.
My issue is if a car hits you there, you have no leg to stand on,car can just say he had a malfunction of sorts and pulled into that lane.
The biggest crime today in traffic is that actual driving seems to have become a secondary function.Every other chop is on the phone ,looking down at a phone,or applying makeup.
Life would be so much easier if everyone actually paid attention to the road.I will not preach as I break the speed limit every time I am on the road,but I always as fast as the road allows me.If that means lane splitting at 60km/h ,then so be it.
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Offline Dwerg

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2012, 01:44:06 pm »
Can life insurance refuse a payout if you have an accident in the EL?
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Offline vigilant

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2012, 01:49:06 pm »
They may try Dwerg, insurance companies are henties. Same for accident ... if the other party shows you were in emergency lane ...  :deal:

One other thought, with it being illegal, i've heard people talking about "metro". Now as things are now, metro are too ignorant to even know about this. But if they get a sniff of how much they can fine you ... just imagine the gemors.

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2012, 02:16:16 pm »
When traveling in the EL you need to realise that (us) car drivers may not instinctively check for traffic in the EL in an "emergency" - as we do not expect someone/ something there, even if it is a "self-inflicted emergency" like inadequate following distance or being asleep or whatever. Especially drivers that do not use that highway everyday.

I also sometimes notice riders that seem very uncomfortable on their bikes in the traffic, battling through the traffic to the EL, and then as soon as they get into the EL they feel "safe" (you can almost see the relief) and then proceed to hammer the bejeezus out of it. That is looking for big trouble IMO.
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Offline Sabre

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2012, 08:46:31 pm »
Vigilant, I too saw you (and another) standing next to a bike on the bridge.  This would have been about 8:30. Interesting numbers (more bikes than I would have guessed!).  After an earlier forum discussion (more like a blow-up) on RHS EL riding or not, I counted for several weeks.  Just on my daily commute from 14th Ave to Marlboro exit (usually 35 minutes). The proportion of EL riders varied a lot on a daily basis, but averaged around 65% of bikes being in the RHS EL.  This is only so during peak traffic. Wherever / whenever the traffic thinned out again, almost all bikes would merge back into traffic.  The odd exception would be a superbike screaming down the EL at way above legal speed.  So my summary would be that most bikers "migrate" to where they feel themselves safest, given the prevailing conditions. Obviously, different guys have different opinions of where / when they feel safest.  You and I disagree, for I sometimes do use the RHS EL, based on my own experience and perception of the prevailing conditions. That's life, I guess.  I only wish for to ride carefully and arrive safely!
Exactly ! When traffic is heavy on the Gauteng freeways, the ELs are the safest, provided you travel at a reasonable speed. When traffic is stationary, I travel between 50 and 60 km/h. Check the "body language" of the vehicles ahead, some people advertise that they are going to do something "extraordinary"

Yes, I frequently move over to allow some superbike riders to continue down the EL at super speeds  :(
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Offline vigilant

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2012, 08:40:10 am »
I also sometimes notice riders that seem very uncomfortable on their bikes in the traffic, battling through the traffic to the EL, and then as soon as they get into the EL they feel "safe" (you can almost see the relief) and then proceed to hammer the bejeezus out of it. That is looking for big trouble IMO.

It's the mindset that is the most dangerous, thanks for your comment.

Sabre:
Quote
the ELs are the safest


No, they're not.
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Offline roxenz

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2012, 10:28:38 am »
I also sometimes notice riders that seem very uncomfortable on their bikes in the traffic, battling through the traffic to the EL, and then as soon as they get into the EL they feel "safe" (you can almost see the relief) and then proceed to hammer the bejeezus out of it. That is looking for big trouble IMO.

It's the mindset that is the most dangerous, thanks for your comment.

Sabre:
Quote
the ELs are the safest


No, they're not.

A blanket statement like that contributes absolutely nothing to the debate. You have not shown any evidence or numbers or anything to substantiate that statement.

I believe that the RHS EL is safer under certain conditions, but that is my belief, based on my own experience and observations. So it is still only an opinion (and we all know that opinions are like hemorrhoids...).  Some facts would be interesting.

You mentioned in an earlier post that the person on the bridge with you were there because of an increase of accidents in the EL. That on its own is also meaningless. Only when numbers are available and have been normalised to allow for changes in numbers and behaviour will one be able to make a proper statement.  For instance, the increase of EL incidents are possibly only so because of increased use of the EL.  There is probably a commensurate decrease in lane split incidents, because fewer riders are lane splitting during the busiest (possibly most dangerous) period of traffic. In my mind, part of the perceived greater number of accidents in EL may very well be due to a false sense of safety in the EL, and hence too high speeds.  Since one is nowhere really safe on a bike, riding in the EL should be tempered with the same sensibilities as when lane splitting or even just sitting in a lane like a car. I've been "attacked" by cages more times when sitting very legally in a lane than when riding down the EL (usually at speeds varying between 70 and 100). But I don't make the deduction that riding in the EL is (always) safer than sitting in a lane, because there are several modifying factors which need to be stripped out before one is comparing apples with apples.

I appreciate that you are trying to do good by making the roads safer for bikers, but I cannot allow an unsupported statement to go unchallenged.
 

Offline Dwerg

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2012, 10:41:32 am »
What is the difference between riding in the EL and disragarding all other road rules? It's illegal. Punt klaar. Do you go around jumping red lights too?
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Offline roxenz

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2012, 11:35:24 am »
What is the difference between riding in the EL and disragarding all other road rules? It's illegal. Punt klaar. Do you go around jumping red lights too?

Dwerg, I don't contest the illegality. But that is a different issue from safety.
 

Offline SmokenFly

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2012, 12:48:45 pm »
What is the difference between riding in the EL and disragarding all other road rules? It's illegal. Punt klaar. Do you go around jumping red lights too?

What he said  :laughing4:
 

Offline vigilant

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2012, 02:47:40 pm »
A blanket statement like that contributes absolutely nothing to the debate. You have not shown any evidence or numbers or anything to substantiate that statement.

 :laughing4:

I care not a fark that it's illegal, I'm not a spietkop.
When sticking your elbow out the car window is against the law, sod the law.
It's about staying alive, that's all, and in one piece, preferably.

How many of those 150 riders were in a cage last year this time? Most. My opinion? No. That's a fairly solid fact. Those that have been doing that route a few years ride in the biker lane. Is that a coincidence? No.
On the N1, EL lane bikers have become a serious problem. That "opinion" is shared by bikers, cagers, law enforcement, medics, and anyone i've asked yet, except those who use it. Who are mostly new riders trying a new thing. W.T.F.?

I'll make a blanket statement: Riding in the EL is more dangerous than riding on any other part of the road. And if you are riding too fast to avoid having a lot of "close calls" then perhaps you should reconsider riding to work. Riding too fast for the prevailing conditions is RIDER error, it is the biggest reason lane splitting is dangerous, and any time any rider goes down (anywhere anytime), it was either his own fault, or an error of judgement on his part. Riding in the EL is an error of judgement.

Your call ...

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Offline RogerL

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Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2012, 03:04:36 pm »
Let me throw a few logs onto the fire...

I studied the K53 road rules this weekend.  Some interesting stuff...
1. Bikes can overtake cars while in the same lane as the car - lane splitting.
2. Only 1 bike may overtake the same car at the same time.
3. Bikers may not ride 2 abreast in a lane - Harley tossers take note.
4. ELs - you may not overtake another vehicle if you cross over the solid barrier line on the left or the right.  That would be the solid lines demarcating the ELs.  Quite clear in the law.
5. All bikes must ride with their lights on all the time.
6. And the most important - only undertake the correct legal road manoevre when it is safe to do so.

On a personal note - next time you are in the car, check how many bikes ride in the car's blind spot.  Can only cause an accident.
 

Offline Sabre

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2012, 10:33:05 pm »
I also sometimes notice riders that seem very uncomfortable on their bikes in the traffic, battling through the traffic to the EL, and then as soon as they get into the EL they feel "safe" (you can almost see the relief) and then proceed to hammer the bejeezus out of it. That is looking for big trouble IMO.

It's the mindset that is the most dangerous, thanks for your comment.

Sabre:
Quote
the ELs are the safest


No, they're not.
Your opinion. I travel the highways and byways regularly, and that is where I feel safest. Maybe you should get real stats. Whenever a biker goes down on the freeway, we often read about it here. How often has that happened the last 6 months ? How many bikes have travelled the highways the last 6 months ? My gut feel is that the ratio between cage accidents and bike accidents is  worse for the cagers. Well, it was this morning, I came across 3 accidents where only cars were involved, and no bike accidents
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Offline vigilant

Re: Bikes on N1
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012, 08:29:08 am »
Maybe you should get real stats.

Please show me where these "real stats" are? They do not exist. No-one else on earth could even tell you how many bikes are on that road. We are talking about the only "real stats" in existence. I challenge anyone to produce more information, so that we can have an intelligent discussion about this.

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