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Offline Inprogress

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2012, 06:54:23 pm »
Jannie46

Why am I forced to microdot? It is supposedly there to help against theft, great I like it, but when it comes to cheap used cars of whom the insurance companies don't pay out NEARLY the market value (actual market value, not that stupid little reference book) I don't insure that car except for third party. Why they HELL am I now forced to pay for something I don't want?

Private sector driven by Government....that sounds like another Tenderneur at work.  >:(

Another thing I just thought about...when is the general public consulted on something that is compulsory? Or was it another of those basement meetings after a notice has been published in the National Gazette under the wrong heading?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 06:54:58 pm by Inprogress »
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Offline Jughead

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2012, 07:06:00 pm »
J46,

I understand the spirit and intention behind the microdotting. It's all about risk reduction, I know.
It started with microdotting the inside of things like desktops, hi-fi's and such a few years back as an owner's choice, supported by insurance premium reductions commensurate with the reduced risk of theft.
I also notice that the SABS Standards committee had NO REPRESENTATION FROM VEHICLE OWNER ORGANISATIONS (such as the AA).
My problem is with the implementation.
If you had a piece of art, would you permit some klutz the insurance company appointed to spray microdots over the front?
If you had an antique French Polished Louis14th table, would you allow somebody with a spraygun near it to spray stuff onto it.
"But it's only visible under UV light, sir!" you may say.
And in five years... ten years?
Is there any guarantee that the film will NEVER react with the base layer?
If it does, who suffers the damage? 
The OWNER does.
Will the Microdot contractor who sprayed the stuff all over reimburse the owner for such damages? 
Will the SABS - who wrote the standard - reimburse the owner?
Will the State who passes the legislation reimburse the owner?

I have no problem with marking things where they will not normally be seen and will not be affected by cleaning, restoration etc.
But this blanket microdotting of everything on a motorcycle is just too much to bear.
If you are trying to restore a classic motorcycle, you may be using parts sourced off a number of donor bikes.
Does that mean one has to get a police clearance certificate and register the microdots off every donor vehicle? 

The logistics of this are horrendous!

So you buy a sad rusted bike for a restoration project. 
You have to microdot it to take ownership.
How do you restore the finish without obliterating the microdots? 
Having restored the bike you have to REMICRODOT it.

If it was voluntary, a restorer could wait until the vehicle is completed and then have the completed project done.

Making microdotting compulsory is extortion.




Dots applied by me are done with a brush, NOT a spraygun.  You would have to lie on your back under the bike to see them, and would then only be able to see them if you knew where they were.

Had a bike in the workshop the other day that had been dotted with a spraygun in Durban and can understand the anger.  I would throw all my toys if my bike looked like that!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 07:22:19 pm by Jughead »
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Offline dual

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2012, 07:20:22 pm »
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=113820.msg2210922#msg2210922

A friend of mine paid R 500.00 yesterday in Hermanus to get it done, talking about 10 000 dots
Kits for bikes with less dots will be cheaper when available

 

Offline Jughead

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2012, 07:23:40 pm »
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=113820.msg2210922#msg2210922

A friend of mine paid R 500.00 yesterday in Hermanus to get it done, talking about 10 000 dots
Kits for bikes with less dots will be cheaper when available



Bike kits (3000 dots) are available and I have in stock.  R395 applied.
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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2012, 07:26:15 pm »
Ok, but first answer my one question, do vehicles HAVE to have microdots to allowed to cross the border?

And secondly, my car, bike etc is already registered, do I now HAVE to go and have them microdotted?
If you can keep your head in the midst of all this confusion, you don't understand the situation!
 

Offline dual

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2012, 08:04:38 pm »
According to my friend and the Hermanus SAPD, YES !
 

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2012, 08:15:30 pm »
Ok, but first answer my one question, do vehicles HAVE to have microdots to allowed to cross the border?

And secondly, my car, bike etc is already registered, do I now HAVE to go and have them microdotted?

Not sure about the crossing the border thing.

As far as I'm aware, you do not need your car/bike microdotted at this point in time.  Only new vehicles need to be done.  If however you purchase/sell a vehicle that for some reason needs a police clearance, they will require it to be dotted.
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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2012, 10:19:57 pm »
I think it is important to find this out for sure, for those wanting to cross a border soon, or for the Namibia Bash in April......
I understand the importance of having this done to vehicles, I just HATE being told I HAVE to do this, I HAVE to spend money on something someone else has concocted.....surely it is MY choice......kinda like the toll system....
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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2012, 08:14:52 am »
First time I've heard of it. I won't pay and won't do it. My bike is a 2000 model and I've had it for 3.5 years. They can chew my sweaty socks.
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Offline Jannie46

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2012, 09:25:36 am »
Glad to see all the response. The only way of sorting the teething problems.

According to the Standard, 7.4.2.3, it is compulsory to apply microdots to at least five of the following areas on a bike:

a.) the information plate, if not attached, the position of the chassis number or the VIN
b.) the chassis or the frame
c.) drive components (e.g drive shaft, rear swing arm)
d.) suspension components
e.) the instrumentation panel
f.) the engine control unit
g.) the engine

7.4.4 states that the following areas are prohibited for application:

a.) areas which negatively affect the warranty of the vehicle (e.g electrical components)
b.) negatively affect the safety of the vehicle (glass or friction areas)

So yes, it is open for input by the owner and the applicator. I would suggest that you find an applicator who knows what he/she is doing when it comes to microdotting a bike.

I would also suggest that a keen interest is taken in the application of the microdots when you are going to have a collectors item microdotted.

Fudmucker, the Standard does not apply to household items. The marking of those are voluntary and has it's own processes should you wish to make use of it. The four companies providing this service can be approached on this. You can test the waters with your insurance company.

Adventurer, as far as border crossing is concerned, it only applies to vehicles registered from 01 September 2012 onwards.

This Standard is only applicable to all "NEW"registrations after the date 01 September 2012, be it a motor vehicle, trailer, bike etc.

Adventurer, should you wish to have your car, bike, trailer etc microdotted which was registered before 01 September 2012, it is your choice. Talk to your insurance company on this, maybe there is a discount in it for you.

Fudmucker with regards to the RESTORATION of vehicles, when it needs police clearance for a new registration, such a vehicle must be microdotted. The key word here is police clearance. If the donor parts are already microdotted, these have to be checked for and recorded by the microdot installer, when the restored vehicle is microdotted for a "NEW"registration.

Then for all, the Goverment had nothing to do with this initiative, it was started by Business Against Crime who consulted with VESA to coordinate this process. Business Against Crime was approached by Datadot initially. It goes without saying that some form of Standard was needed to regulate the microdotting industry, otherwise it would have become a free for all with a lot of confusion that would have followed, watering down the purpose of addressing vehicle theft.

We are the first country in the world that has generate a Standard for this industry.

Yes, implimentation, like with everything else, will cause issues. I am quite confident, that with time, these issues will be addressed and sorted.  

And for those who are concerned about who is benefitting from a business perspective, all the entities which are doing business in microdotting or consulting in this industry. Same for the businesses which are selling anti-theft devices and the like.

I do not profess to know all the answers, but will assist as far as I can, and if I cannot assist, I will try to find the answers for the questions asked.

My role in the Standard was limited to my knowledge as a former policeman, and now a forensic expert with a thorough understanding of forensic processes and how it compliments the judicial process.

Please do not confuse me with CSI, the charlatans (so-called forensic experts) in the industry and the like. >:D :angry5: :angryfire:
 

Offline Fudmucker

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 10:12:51 am »
Glad to see all the response. The only way of sorting the teething problems.

According to the Standard, 7.4.2.3, it is compulsory to apply microdots to at least five of the following areas on a bike:

a.) the information plate, if not attached, the position of the chassis number or the VIN
b.) the chassis or the frame
c.) drive components (e.g drive shaft, rear swing arm)
d.) suspension components
e.) the instrumentation panel
f.) the engine control unit
g.) the engine

7.4.4 states that the following areas are prohibited for application:

a.) areas which negatively affect the warranty of the vehicle (e.g electrical components)
b.) negatively affect the safety of the vehicle (glass or friction areas)

So yes, it is open for input by the owner and the applicator. I would suggest that you find an applicator who knows what he/she is doing when it comes to microdotting a bike.

I would also suggest that a keen interest is taken in the application of the microdots when you are going to have a collectors item microdotted.

Fudmucker, the Standard does not apply to household items. The marking of those are voluntary and has it's own processes should you wish to make use of it. The four companies providing this service can be approached on this. You can test the waters with your insurance company.

Adventurer, as far as border crossing is concerned, it only applies to vehicles registered from 01 September 2012 onwards.

This Standard is only applicable to all "NEW"registrations after the date 01 September 2012, be it a motor vehicle, trailer, bike etc.

Adventurer, should you wish to have your car, bike, trailer etc microdotted which was registered before 01 September 2012, it is your choice. Talk to your insurance company on this, maybe there is a discount in it for you.

Fudmucker with regards to the RESTORATION of vehicles, when it needs police clearance for a new registration, such a vehicle must be microdotted. The key word here is police clearance. If the donor parts are already microdotted, these have to be checked for and recorded by the microdot installer, when the restored vehicle is microdotted for a "NEW"registration.

Then for all, the Goverment had nothing to do with this initiative, it was started by Business Against Crime who consulted with VESA to coordinate this process. Business Against Crime was approached by Datadot initially. It goes without saying that some form of Standard was needed to regulate the microdotting industry, otherwise it would have become a free for all with a lot of confusion that would have followed, watering down the purpose of addressing vehicle theft.

We are the first country in the world that has generate a Standard for this industry.

Yes, implimentation, like with everything else, will cause issues. I am quite confident, that with time, these issues will be addressed and sorted.  

And for those who are concerned about who is benefitting from a business perspective, all the entities which are doing business in microdotting or consulting in this industry. Same for the businesses which are selling anti-theft devices and the like.

I do not profess to know all the answers, but will assist as far as I can, and if I cannot assist, I will try to find the answers for the questions asked.


There is a tactic in the business world that says:
If there isn't a market for your product, then create one - either by generating individual insecurity (e.g. deodorants, feminine hygiene products...) or by making the general use of your product compulsory to the public by statute, by regulations or by strategic partnerships (e.g. insurance companies).

Anti-theft devices are not compulsory to buy / sell a vehicle.
ATD's may be compulsory to INSURE the vehicle, but that remains a user choice.

Micro-dotting is a forced sale situation.  Next thing the vehicle registration officials will be handing out business cards and getting a finder's commission on sales (if it isn't happening already!)
As I said before, I fully understand the SPIRIT and INTENTION behind micro-dotting from a property protection and "chain of evidence" situation.
This initiative should have been piloted first, the problems identified for elimination and only then introduced as a compulsory mechanism.

Vehicle manufacturers already mark all major components of a vehicle with VIN numbers in places you cannot reach with a grinder to prevent theft and identify the source of major components.
That goes a long way to address the problem and is painless to owners, sellers and buyers.
Paint stripper and spraypaint will remove or obliterate microdots.
Back to square one and yet another forced grudge purchase is in the bag!  >:(

The groups representing Persons with Disabilities have a mantra:
"NO DECISIONS AFFECTING US WITHOUT INVOLVING US"

The same is applicable in this case. 
The process of introducing this SANS Standard is fatally flawed.
It must be withdrawn, rewritten with input from the affected parties and only then implemented.

I also sit on a number of SANS Standards Committees and I know the administrative processes.
It can be  done in less than six months.
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Offline Jannie46

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 10:27:46 am »
Fudmucker, point taken.
 

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2012, 10:28:25 am »

There is a tactic in the business world that says:
If there isn't a market for your product, then create one - either by generating individual insecurity (e.g. deodorants, feminine hygiene products...) or by making the general use of your product compulsory to the public by statute, by regulations or by strategic partnerships (e.g. insurance companies).

Anti-theft devices are not compulsory to buy / sell a vehicle.
ATD's may be compulsory to INSURE the vehicle, but that remains a user choice.

Micro-dotting is a forced sale situation.  Next thing the vehicle registration officials will be handing out business cards and getting a finder's commission on sales (if it isn't happening already!)
As I said before, I fully understand the SPIRIT and INTENTION behind micro-dotting from a property protection and "chain of evidence" situation.
This initiative should have been piloted first, the problems identified for elimination and only then introduced as a compulsory mechanism.

Vehicle manufacturers already mark all major components of a vehicle with VIN numbers in places you cannot reach with a grinder to prevent theft and identify the source of major components.
That goes a long way to address the problem and is painless to owners, sellers and buyers.
Paint stripper and spraypaint will remove or obliterate microdots.
Back to square one and yet another forced grudge purchase is in the bag!  >:(

The groups representing Persons with Disabilities have a mantra:
"NO DECISIONS AFFECTING US WITHOUT INVOLVING US"

The same is applicable in this case. 
The process of introducing this SANS Standard is fatally flawed.
It must be withdrawn, rewritten with input from the affected parties and only then implemented.

I also sit on a number of SANS Standards Committees and I know the administrative processes.
It can be  done in less than six months.


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Offline chicco

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2012, 10:46:19 am »
As from 1 September it became compulsory in South Africa for all new vehicles and vehicles requiring a police clearance to be microdotted.
 
This follows amendments to the Road Traffic Act in March this year, with the aim of reducing vehicle-related crimes and, among others, aiding the police in tracing the owners of stolen vehicles and vehicle spares when recovered.
 
But what is microdotting? Basically, it is an added vehicle-security feature whereby some 10 000 data dots are sprayed onto various locations in a vehicle. These dots, which are almost invisible to the naked eye, have a unique code and this code, along with that specific vehicle’s information, is captured on the National Traffic Information System, or e-NaTIS as it’s called. These dots are viewed with the use of a UV light.
 
Since the introduction of the new regulations, however, the Limpopo Mirror has received several calls from members of the public wanting to know whether microdotting is also compulsory when buying a secondhand vehicle and who is supposed to pay for the service - the dealership or the client? What also upsets members of the public is that no fixed pricing system for microdotting appears to exist. One complainant, a farmer who wanted to buy a tractor, said he received microdotting quotes from different dealerships and agents ranging between R850 and R2 500. The question was asked: Is this not just another money-making scheme for some?
 
Limpopo Mirror contacted several vehicle dealerships, specifically enquiring about legislation with regard to secondhand vehicles, as well as who should pay for microdotting.
 
All of them confirmed that all new vehicles coming in from the manufacturers are, as is now required by law, already microdotted and that those vehicles’ floor price is the selling price. It was, however, pointed out that some dealerships still have new vehicles on their showroom floors received before 1 September that are therefore not microdotted. In these cases, all the dealerships are having the vehicles microdotted at their own expense.
 
Regarding secondhand vehicles, all the dealerships confirmed that they are not at present required by law to have these vehicles microdotted. Should a buyer wish to have a secondhand vehicle microdotted, it will be at his or her own expense. Some dealerships, however, indicated that they had already started microdotting all their secondhand vehicles as this will eventually also become law, possibly as early as February next year.
 
It was determined that the negotiated dealership price for microdotting averages between R1000 and R1 200. Bear in mind that this is a dealership price and not the price an individual would necessarily pay. It is understandable, working on the principle that price is determined by supply and demand and that dealerships having to microdot 20 or 30 vehicles per month will pay far less than an individual only wanting to have one vehicle microdotted. Sadly, for the buyer, there is no fixed price when it comes to microdotting and an agent or dealership can basically charge what it wants. It would therefore be wise to shop around and negotiate a better price with an agent or dealership. As far as could be determined, the only fixed price when it comes to microdotting is when a police clearance certificate is needed. Here the price is R850.
 
Which vehicles presently require microdotting?
 
* All new vehicles, including cars, bakkies, trucks, motorcycles, tractors, trailers and caravans (but not quad bikes);
 
* All vehicles of which the existing information on the e-NaTIS system has changed (for example when a new engine was fitted);
 
* All vehicles requiring a police clearance certificate; and
 
*  All vehicles intended for import or export.
 
Members of the public must make sure that the microdotting done to their vehicle complies with the requirements of standard spesifications, SANS 534-1. If the dots fitted do not comply with this standard, the dots must be refitted.
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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 10:53:34 am »
I'm still not convinced that this will in any way deter thieves from stealing your car.  How is this supposed to stop vehicle theft?
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Offline Jannie46

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2012, 11:02:07 am »
@Koet,if I can help. It will be a pain in the ass to identify and locate approximately 10 000 microdots on a car and effectively clean off all of them. It might not be 100% effective, but it just put another stumbling block in the way of the thief and related down stream business.
 

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 02:26:17 pm »
I'm still not convinced that this will in any way deter thieves from stealing your car.  How is this supposed to stop vehicle theft?

It won't, they still gonna steal your car, use it and then dump it on the side of the road...
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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2012, 11:39:06 pm »
We are forced to pay for another theft stumbling block.....how nice of you.  >:(

A pain in the ass to remove the microdots.....how much more of a pain in the ass will it be considering when cars are stolen, they usually replace THE ENTIRE ENGINE and a few other bits and pieces like instrument panels. With them replacing those parts anyway, finding microdots will be just another step in the process of "rebuilding" the car for reregistration. Mircodot as stubling block = FAIL.

Considering that these microdots are visible with UV light, and those who have them can chime in here about my assumption, they will be pretty easily seen wont they under UV light? No point in marking a car in various places if they government official can't even find them upon inspection? Or do you supply a road-map for where the dots are located? Microdot as "pain in the ass to remove" = FAIL.

Most stolen cars in the Eastern Cape go through Cape Town to get re-registered on the e-natis system (back when I chatted to ex-police who now work for insurance companies). Enough contacts behind the law curtain to get vehicles re-registered. Microdots helping to curb one crucial stumbling block in the fight against car theft = FAIL.

As mentioned by Fudmucker, "NO DECISIONS AFFECTING US WITHOUT INVOLVING US". First time I hear of mircodotting was a few weeks ago in a chat about going over the border, now this thread. Consulting those who are forced to pay = FAIL.
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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2012, 07:28:54 am »
We are forced to pay for another theft stumbling block.....how nice of you.  >:(

A pain in the ass to remove the microdots.....how much more of a pain in the ass will it be considering when cars are stolen, they usually replace THE ENTIRE ENGINE and a few other bits and pieces like instrument panels. With them replacing those parts anyway, finding microdots will be just another step in the process of "rebuilding" the car for reregistration. Mircodot as stubling block = FAIL.

Considering that these microdots are visible with UV light, and those who have them can chime in here about my assumption, they will be pretty easily seen wont they under UV light? No point in marking a car in various places if they government official can't even find them upon inspection? Or do you supply a road-map for where the dots are located? Microdot as "pain in the ass to remove" = FAIL.

Most stolen cars in the Eastern Cape go through Cape Town to get re-registered on the e-natis system (back when I chatted to ex-police who now work for insurance companies). Enough contacts behind the law curtain to get vehicles re-registered. Microdots helping to curb one crucial stumbling block in the fight against car theft = FAIL.

As mentioned by Fudmucker, "NO DECISIONS AFFECTING US WITHOUT INVOLVING US". First time I hear of mircodotting was a few weeks ago in a chat about going over the border, now this thread. Consulting those who are forced to pay = FAIL.

100% agree and well put!
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Offline Jannie46

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Re: you gotta get microdotted!!!
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2012, 10:43:25 am »
Only 31 members commented on this thread out of 12274 members. Would think that this issue is more controversial than this. Would like to have some more input.