No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?

[jagter]

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...

I would have to agree with Sam on this one. History is full of unjust laws and regimes that needed disobedience.  Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa come to mind.

So the answer is there is no such thing as "I was only following orders" or "But it's the law"     You are responsible for your own actions and need to be able to look the guy in the mirror in the eyes. In other words,  you make it up as you go along.

Segregation and discrimination against entire groups based on race or genocide of a race doesn't really fly in the same ballpark as a traffic law that irritates some people now, is it ?
The one is disobeying your government wanting to force you into something immoral - the other is disobeying a law that has got nothing to do with morals.

Sorry - but it is people with this type of mentality that make bikers in general look bad.

Lets swing this around.

For a taxi - the LAW that states that they should obey a left-only lane's arrow instead of going across straight isn't only an inconvenience for them, but it interferes with their livelihood, as they might lose out on income when they can't pick up people in the left only lane and then go straight.

Solid lines the same thing - it holds them back when they can overtake and can prevent the driver from being at his destination on time - might get him fired and leaves him and his family destitute.

You see where I'm going with this ?
 
The law is the law. We can debate liking it or not, but saying that it is our obligation to break it if it is stupid is actually downright dangerous.

And don't tell me that taxi's and solid lines can't be mentioned in the same breath as having to obey a (possibility of a) law that might want to force us in between cars. I'm not the one that used a  traffic law and genocide in the same sentence...

Look, I get what you're saying.  But it only takes 1 contrary example to disprove a theory, and the idea of blindly following all laws just because some politician decided to write something down is just plain wrong.  If more people thought for themselves we'll have a lot less problems in the world.

Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

[Eisbein]

Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

[Grrrr....]

Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

Yip.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/b0OX49tdZt4?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_GB&amp;amp;rel=0&quot;" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/b0OX49tdZt4?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_GB&amp;amp;rel=0&quot;</a>

[jagter]

Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.

[Jacobsroodt]

My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting

Indeed. There is a reason why boda-boda's are so popular in Africa, rather than scooters. At least they have decent size wheels, are easy to ride and handles OK.

[jagter]

My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting

My initial reaction was to disagree strongly. (I do about 70% of my commuting on a scooter) But after some thought, you have a point. Not about banning scooters, that's just silly, but about the skills and attitude of some scooter riders.

A scooter is so light and easy to ride that you can probably handle one quite well if you can ride a bicycle.  The result is that a lot of riders don't have a clue what they are doing.  They don't know how to brake,corner or do evasive maneuvers.

Regarding power and braking distance. You'll be surprised.  Because it's so light it can stop on a dime, and the CVT transmission allows me to be at the next robot by the time you've dropped your clutch.

[Buddy]

"Western Cape Motorcycle Association" Who are these people? I haven't seen them around.

[Eisbein]

Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.

That was my initial reaction as well - up to where we started to find out that this guy is actually interested to get behind what is really going on and to engage with the people that will actually be on the receiving end of this.

One of his comments yesterday was that he was learning more about motorcycles and commuting than what he thought possible.

Respectful dialogue 1st - blazing guns later.

[Eisbein]

"Western Cape Motorcycle Association" Who are these people? I haven't seen them around.

You wouldn't have if you weren't part of the motorcycle club scene - they are the governing body over the western cape motorcycle clubs.

So normal guys like us wouldn't know they exist unless you have been in contact with a club somewhere or at least been to a rally or two.

I also feel that although they should be representing, there should be representation as well for the normal 'day to day non club' motorcyclists as well.

[lonerider]

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.

It works the other way too.

Today I decide to change lanes without indicating, tomorrow I talk on my phone, then later I'm forcing a bus off the road by overtaking up a hill, across a solid white line, against the traffic...

Society creates it's own problems due to lack of forethought and lack of forbearance.

[jagter]

Anyway, this is going of topic.  If they ban late splitting, I'll still lane split..

I'll still do it too.

But I won't consider myself a revolutionary, freedom fighter or a Ghandi because of it.

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.

That was my initial reaction as well - up to where we started to find out that this guy is actually interested to get behind what is really going on and to engage with the people that will actually be on the receiving end of this.

One of his comments yesterday was that he was learning more about motorcycles and commuting than what he thought possible.

Respectful dialogue 1st - blazing guns later.

Agreed. For a politician he's remarkably sensible and willing to engage.  My first thought was burnouts on his lawn, but the more of his emails I see, the more I realise he's willing to work with us. 

At least that's the perception he's projecting, with politicians it's best to be sceptical to the max.

[jagter]

Lol.   True.   But these things start small and escalate.  Today no more lane splitting, tomorrow you need a permit to fart, or bikes aren't allowed in the city center.  

It's my pet hate when politicians interfere by making laws that turn solid citizens into criminals. I'm all for a freedom of action approach.

It works the other way too.

Today I decide to change lanes without indicating, tomorrow I talk on my phone, then later I'm forcing a bus off the road by overtaking up a hill, across a solid white line, against the traffic...

Society creates it's own problems due to lack of forethought and lack of forbearance.

I think it works the other way too because of bullshit laws.  The more bullshit laws out there that people disobey because the law is unjust or moronic, the more people start disobeying legit laws, because they get used to being 'outlaws'.

Anyway. My last post that has nothing to do with lanesplitting. I've derailed the thread enough.
 

[Eisbein]

My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting

My initial reaction was to disagree strongly. (I do about 70% of my commuting on a scooter) But after some thought, you have a point. Not about banning scooters, that's just silly, but about the skills and attitude of some scooter riders.

A scooter is so light and easy to ride that you can probably handle one quite well if you can ride a bicycle.  The result is that a lot of riders don't have a clue what they are doing.  They don't know how to brake,corner or do evasive maneuvers.

Regarding power and braking distance. You'll be surprised.  Because it's so light it can stop on a dime, and the CVT transmission allows me to be at the next robot by the time you've dropped your clutch.

You both are making a huge point.

One of the things that I have been wondering about a lot is the test to get your license.
When I did mine for a big bike (1993) I went riding with the 'spietkop' - he on his bike behind - in the traffic.
I had to keep an eye on him and his indicators and he obviously watched me the whole time.

Nowadays the final test is literally just testing your ability to pull away, stop and ride around a couple of obstacles on an isolated track.
In my mind that would be a good test to give someone before you give them a learner's license, not a final test for your license.

A motorcycle is the form of road transport that can get you hurt the most of all, but the only one where the test to see if you can doesn't even touch a public road...
I mean if you think about it - a guy go to someone like Billy De Beer for a week or three, take a TW 200 and pass the test without having been on the road properly.

Then he can go and buy himself a fireblade (or a scooter for that matter) and let himself loose on traffic on a bike that he doesn't know, with 0 experience.

So for me the 1st step about this would be to clamp down on illegal riders (rider and bike licenses and roadworthy) and then to adjust the process to get a license - not to be a pain in the ass or make it difficult, but to have a test that is a better representation of real life scenarios.

[jagter]

Eisbein: I agree with your points.  Licensing is seriously inadequate, although I'll be slow to support a more complicated system.

I reckon training of some sort will make the biggest difference.  Real life practical training on riding in traffic and staying alive.  I've read many books and watched many videos on the subject and took a course or 2. It definitely helps, never had a traffic related crash after 10 years of commuting in Gauteng,CTN and lately a small town.   (The less I say about falling off when off-road the better  )

Some options that I reckon might work:

-Maybe the minister can work with insurance companies to reduce premiums for trained riders.
-Some form of mandatory rider training in schools when students commute by bike.
-Make the traffic cops do something useful by making the bike cops present monthly seminars on riding in traffic. They must have some idea how.  A similar program is offered in the UK, where experienced bike riding trafficers take people on 1 on 1 through traffic and provide feedback.

Most of the above is probably too much to ask, and too much hassle, except for the insurance thing.

[Eisbein]

although I'll be slow to support a more complicated system.

That to me is also an issue. None of us want more complicated. I think what we need is something that is more sensible without adding complication - how that's gonna work I have no idea...

I've read many books and watched many videos on the subject and took a course or 2. It definitely helps, never had a traffic related crash after 10 years of commuting in Gauteng,CTN and lately a small town. 

You obviously have self preservation high up on your to do list


Seriously though - totally in agreement.

-Some form of mandatory rider training in schools when students commute by bike.

I really like this - a while ago (on another forum) I wrote a 5 page doc on the do's and don't and the must and shouldn'ts (in my experience of course) for 16 year old's and their parents.
I also said in my e-mail to the MEC that I would volunteer for something like this (will obviously go through some training myself if need be to be able to do this)
Teenagers on 'poegies' that is safety aware and survive on two wheels 'till they are 18 WILL make for better car drivers as well.

-Make the traffic cops do something useful by making the bike cops present monthly seminars on riding in traffic. They must have some idea how.  A similar program is offered in the UK, where experienced bike riding trafficers take people on 1 on 1 through traffic and provide feedback.

I really like this as well

[jpcussen]

Eisbein: I agree with your points.  Licensing is seriously inadequate, although I'll be slow to support a more complicated system.

I reckon training of some sort will make the biggest difference.  Real life practical training on riding in traffic and staying alive.  I've read many books and watched many videos on the subject and took a course or 2. It definitely helps, never had a traffic related crash after 10 years of commuting in Gauteng,CTN and lately a small town.   (The less I say about falling off when off-road the better  )

Some options that I reckon might work:

-Maybe the minister can work with insurance companies to reduce premiums for trained riders.
-Some form of mandatory rider training in schools when students commute by bike.
-Make the traffic cops do something useful by making the bike cops present monthly seminars on riding in traffic. They must have some idea how.  A similar program is offered in the UK, where experienced bike riding trafficers take people on 1 on 1 through traffic and provide feedback.

Most of the above is probably too much to ask, and too much hassle, except for the insurance thing.

Very good points, especially re the insurance for qualified / trained riders. The 1 on 1 riding with a cop is something I saw on TV and they can give life saving feedback

[Andy Tastic]

Awesome that so many Folk are getting involved.

A few years ago, I was approached by a guy from THINK BIKE and if memory serves me correct, isn't this something they might already have started, you know, the "education, awareness" thing...! I have seen them at some Toy Runs and other Rallies.

I am actively involved in Motorcycle & Scooter Rider Education, in my capacity as a K53 Instructor and yes, my gripe is with the actual "licencing" process. My main concentration is teaching Beginner Riders and the misunderstood notion that by passing a "written or theory" Learners Licence Test gives somebody the "right" to ride any Motorcycle or Scooter on our roads, without any prior Road riding & traffic Skills is to my logic, most irresponsible and quite plain dangerous.

Hey, you don't even need a "licence" to drive a Motorcycle or Scooter out of a Showroom from some Dealerships..! In fact, some Dealerships "proudly" advertise that you can buy a Motorcycle or Scooter from them without a "Licence", like its a positive selling point as to why you should rather buy from them as apposed to another Dealership who has the "cheek" to mention to you that its recommended that you look at getting yourself "legal" first.

My philosophy is:
"It is well known that proper Motorcycle and Scooter Rider Training that develops and promotes correct Riding and Road Traffic Safety Skills dramatically reduces the risks of accidents and makes your Motorcycle Riding Experience so much safer. Consider that any time, effort and money spent doing Motorcycle Rider Training to be an invaluable “Investment” in your Riding future."

I will be following this with much anticipation.

[alexTH3man]

duplicate... of what AMZ said...

sorry for that

[The Rock]

on a different, but related note....

they should also do something about pedestrians who walk between stationary traffic. they just dont look for oncoming bikes! i've knocked one down and have had a few close shaves while lane splitting.

and also beggars that stand at traffic lights in the middle of two lanes! you're lane splitting, traffic starts moving, they have nowhere to go! pisses me off! 

[Hanno @ Mad Macs]

I get the distinct impression that some WD's on here did not bother to read the whole thread before posting.

The fact that I have seen the same email copied here four times seems to support my theory.

or what am i saying aleTH3man ??