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Offline Pistonpete

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #140 on: February 19, 2013, 09:26:33 pm »
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
In fact Robyn Carlyle is also welcome...
P
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:27:37 pm by Pistonpete »
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Offline Bring It On

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #141 on: February 19, 2013, 09:27:41 pm »
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
P

Sounds good :thumleft:
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Offline Pistonpete

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #142 on: February 19, 2013, 09:28:50 pm »
I had a discussion today with a consultant that are actively involved in traffic legislation in the Western Cape and who is likely to also get involved in this issue.

He is interrested in meeting with "The Western Cape Motorcycling Association", when this comes his way. He is of the view that it is better to involve all role players from early on, rather than to wait for public comment where a lot of hard work can be all undone.

I have not been biking for that long and are not aware of any such association.  So, the question is, who will represent the bikers of the Western Cape, any takers?

I can organise The Viper Lounge (Tableview) as a private function (no cost) venue and we can nominate riders or those adapt at putting points across....an open discussion is also good?
P

Sounds good :thumleft:
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Offline Cracker

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #143 on: February 19, 2013, 09:43:47 pm »
If you're lane-splitting, can the e-toll gantry still see you??

Was just wondering since they got those little patches of paint in the middle of the lanes - what for?
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Offline jagter

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #144 on: February 19, 2013, 09:44:34 pm »
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




I would have to agree with Sam on this one. History is full of unjust laws and regimes that needed disobedience.  Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa come to mind.

So the answer is there is no such thing as "I was only following orders" or "But it's the law"     You are responsible for your own actions and need to be able to look the guy in the mirror in the eyes. In other words,  you make it up as you go along.
 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #145 on: February 19, 2013, 10:52:24 pm »
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




I would have to agree with Sam on this one. History is full of unjust laws and regimes that needed disobedience.  Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa come to mind.

So the answer is there is no such thing as "I was only following orders" or "But it's the law"     You are responsible for your own actions and need to be able to look the guy in the mirror in the eyes. In other words,  you make it up as you go along.

Segregation and discrimination against entire groups based on race or genocide of a race doesn't really fly in the same ballpark as a traffic law that irritates some people now, is it ?
The one is disobeying your government wanting to force you into something immoral - the other is disobeying a law that has got nothing to do with morals.

Sorry - but it is people with this type of mentality that make bikers in general look bad.

Lets swing this around.

For a taxi - the LAW that states that they should obey a left-only lane's arrow instead of going across straight isn't only an inconvenience for them, but it interferes with their livelihood, as they might lose out on income when they can't pick up people in the left only lane and then go straight.

Solid lines the same thing - it holds them back when they can overtake and can prevent the driver from being at his destination on time - might get him fired and leaves him and his family destitute.

You see where I'm going with this ?
 
The law is the law. We can debate liking it or not, but saying that it is our obligation to break it if it is stupid is actually downright dangerous.

And don't tell me that taxi's and solid lines can't be mentioned in the same breath as having to obey a (possibility of a) law that might want to force us in between cars. I'm not the one that used a  traffic law and genocide in the same sentence...
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:53:19 pm by Eisbein »
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Offline Spy

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #146 on: February 20, 2013, 12:10:24 am »
No one can deny that us bikers are partly to blame for this reaction from our MEC.
Have you seen how most bikers filter through the traffic!? They filter way too fast and dangerously!
As vulnerable users of the road, us bikers have to take responsibility for ourselves and start to ride slower and safer!

I've said it before (and got blasted for it) and here I say it again ... If you get knocked down while filtering through traffic, then you are also to blame!!
Here is why...
-You know cars switch lanes without looking in mirrors...
-You know cars switch lanes without checking there blind spot...
-You know cars don't indicate there intentions before moving...
-You know it's high risk...
So why the Fk do you continue to ride at speeds that you can't react to avoid the cars or stop in time!?!  :-\

So lets take our heads out our asses, brush the chip off our shoulder, put egos away, stop being in denial and start being more safe and responsible bikers and start riding by example!
We all guilty of this in some way, including myself!

This is a damb-ass idea from the MEC and will not work, but I'll be emailing him to ask why government is not educating people into the right way to ride/drive on our roads but rather allows someone of 18yrs with no experience to be able to climb on a 1000cc superbike with a learners licence for 2yrs? (that he'll never reach cause he's either dead or broken)
Road Safety Education is the only fix for safer roads and will take some time to rectify, but it starts with all of Us, Now! Right?  :thumleft:

Watch the videos and read the articles and learn how to do it correctly!  :deal:
http://youtu.be/JNGD9AAIfFU
http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html
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Offline Goose

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #147 on: February 20, 2013, 08:01:47 am »
I agree 100% with you SPy ............. in fact I've seen you ride on the road.............. a TOTAL Hooligan!   :imaposer:

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Offline TheBear

Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #148 on: February 20, 2013, 08:32:24 am »
No one can deny that us bikers are partly to blame for this reaction from our MEC.
Have you seen how most bikers filter through the traffic!? They filter way too fast and dangerously!
As vulnerable users of the road, us bikers have to take responsibility for ourselves and start to ride slower and safer!

I've said it before (and got blasted for it) and here I say it again ... If you get knocked down while filtering through traffic, then you are also to blame!!
Here is why...
-You know cars switch lanes without looking in mirrors...
-You know cars switch lanes without checking there blind spot...
-You know cars don't indicate there intentions before moving...
-You know it's high risk...
So why the Fk do you continue to ride at speeds that you can't react to avoid the cars or stop in time!?!  :-\

So lets take our heads out our asses, brush the chip off our shoulder, put egos away, stop being in denial and start being more safe and responsible bikers and start riding by example!
We all guilty of this in some way, including myself!

This is a damb-ass idea from the MEC and will not work, but I'll be emailing him to ask why government is not educating people into the right way to ride/drive on our roads but rather allows someone of 18yrs with no experience to be able to climb on a 1000cc superbike with a learners licence for 2yrs? (that he'll never reach cause he's either dead or broken)
Road Safety Education is the only fix for safer roads and will take some time to rectify, but it starts with all of Us, Now! Right?  :thumleft:

Watch the videos and read the articles and learn how to do it correctly!  :deal:
http://youtu.be/JNGD9AAIfFU
http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html

Well said!  Apart from calling the MEC an ass.  See his response to an e-mail send to him.  Doesn't soun dthat dumb at all.
 

Hi ?????,

Thanks for your note.
I set out below a summary which I sent to one of the biking newsletters this am.
It gives a good picture of where we are at in this discussion on biker safety.
Thanks for your interest.

“ What I said at a media conference on Monday was – in point form:-
- my first concern is for the safety of bikers, which I am sure you support.
-Secondly, that bike ownership is growing at 5% pa - bike fatalities at 10% pa.
-This problem of ever growing biker fatalities is universal. They form the highest cohort of fatalities in Australia, and in some of the far eastern countries, biker deaths per 100000 of population exceeds our total deaths on the road.

-We note that a number of countries have banned lane splitting - Germany; USA (not California) Canada.
-So lets have a look at it - not introduce it - not legislate for it - lets discuss.
-In the main the feedback from the biker community has been mature, responsible and helpful.
What is emerging is the following:-
-distracted drivers are a serious menace to bikers;
-there is an element of totally irresponsible riding within biking
-bikers need protection from rear-ending.
-bikers are very vulnerable to unlawful vehicle driving (ie jumping red robots; stop streets, etc)
-If we are to maintain lane splitting we should get the maximum biker buy in on a code of behaviour. (see the California suggestions below)
-more advanced biker training is essential and maybe we could get one of the big distributors to help.
-should we revert to a lights on policy?
-should there be dedicated bike lanes and/or biker entry into the bus lanes?


It would be helpful if the correct message went out in your newsletter, and you are welcome to publish my email if any of your readers want to contact me.

Sourced from the California Motorcycle Safety Program, and promoted by Cycle World Magazine.
Lane splitting in a safe and prudent manner is not illegal.

The term lane splitting, sometimes known as lane sharing, filtering or white-lining, refers to the process of a motorcyclist riding between lanes of stopped or slower moving traffic or moving between lanes to the front of traffic stopped at a traffic light.

Motorcyclists who are competent enough to lane split, should follow these general guidelines if choosing to lane split:

1) Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic – danger increases at higher speed differentials.

- A speed differential of 15kph or less allows an alert, competent rider enough time to identify and react to most dangerous situations that can occur.
- The greater the speed differential, the less time a rider has to identify and react to a hazard.

2) It is not advisable to lane split when traffic flow is at 50kph or faster --- danger increases as overall speed increases.

- At just 30kph, in the 1 or 2 seconds it takes a rider to identify a hazard, that rider will travel approximately 10 to 20 meters before even starting to take evasive action. Actual reaction (braking or swerving) will take additional time and distance.
- Braking and stopping distance varies greatly based on a multitude of factors (rider, machine and environment).
- As speed increases, crash severity increases.

3) Typically, it is safer to split between the #1 and #2 lanes than between other lanes.

- Other road users are more accustomed to motorcycles splitting between the #1 and #2 (furthest left) lanes.
- Avoid splitting in lanes near freeway on-ramps and exits.
- Avoid splitting lanes when another motorcycle rider is splitting between other nearby lanes as cars may make additional room for one rider and accidentally reduce space for another.

4) Consider the total environment in which you are splitting, including the width of the lanes, size of surrounding vehicles, as well as roadway, weather, and lighting conditions.

- Some lanes are narrower than others, leaving little room to pass safely. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Some vehicles are wider than others -- it is not advisable to split near wide trucks. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Know the limitations of your motorcycle --- wide bars, fairing and bags require more space between vehicles. If you can't fit, don't split.
- Avoid splitting on unfamiliar roads to avoid surprises such as poor road surfaces.
- Seams in the pavement or concrete between lanes can be hazardous if they are wide or uneven.
- Poor visibility, due to darkness or weather conditions, makes it difficult for riders to see road hazards and makes it more difficult for drivers to see you.
- Help drivers see you by wearing brightly colored protective gear and using high beams during daylight.

5) Be alert and anticipate possible movements by other road users.

- Be very aware of what the cars around you are doing. If a space, or gap, opens up next to your lane, be prepared react accordingly.
- Always be prepared to take evasive action if a vehicle changes lanes.
- Account for inattentive or distracted drivers.
- Riders should not weave back and forth between lanes or ride on top of the line.
- Riders should avoid lingering in blind spots.
- Never ride while impaired by drugs, alcohol or fatigue.
- Constantly scan for changing conditions.

The Four R's or “Be-Attitudes” of Lane Splitting:

Be Reasonable, be Responsible, be Respectful, be aware of all Roadway and traffic conditions.

- Be Reasonable means not more than 10 MPH faster than traffic flow and not over 39 MPH.
- Be Responsible for your own safety and decisions.
§ Don't put yourself in dangerous positions.
§ If you can't fit, don't split.
- Be Respectful --- sharing the road goes both ways.
§ Don't rely on loud pipes to keep you safe, loud pipes often startle people and poison the attitude of car drivers toward motorcyclists.
§ Other vehicles are not required to make space for motorcycles to lane split.
- Be aware Roadways and traffic can be hazardous.
§ uneven pavement
§ wide trucks
§ distracted drivers
§ weather conditions
§ curves, etc.
Disclaimers:
These general guidelines are not guaranteed to keep you safe.
Lane splitting should not be performed by inexperienced riders. These guidelines assume a high level of riding competency and experience.
The recommendations contained here are only general guidelines and cannot cover all possible combinations of situations and variables.
Personal Safety: Every rider has ultimate responsibility for his or her own decision making and safety. Riders must be conscious of reducing crash risk at all times. California law requires all motorcycle riders and passengers wear a helmet that complies with the DOT FMVSS 218 standard.
Risk of getting a ticket: Motorcyclists who lane split are not relieved of the responsibility to obey all existing traffic laws. With respect to possible law enforcement action, keep in mind that it will be up to the discretion of the Law Enforcement Officer to determine if riding behavior while lane splitting is or was safe and prudent.

When is it NOT OK to split?

You should NOT lane split:
- If you can't fit.
- At a toll booth.
- If traffic is moving too fast or unpredictably.
- If dangerous road conditions exist --- examples include water or grit on the road, slippery road markings, road construction, uneven pavement, metal grates, etc.
- If you cannot clearly see a way out of the space you're going into (for example, if a van or SUV is blocking your view).
- Between trucks, buses, RVs, and other wide vehicles.
- Around or through curves.
- If you are not fully alert and aware of your surroundings.
- If you are unable to react to changing conditions instantaneously.
- If you don't feel comfortable with the situation.

Messages for Other Vehicle Drivers

1) Lane splitting by motorcycles is not illegal in California when done in a safe and prudent manner.
2) Motorists should not take it upon themselves to discourage motorcyclists from lane splitting.
3) Intentionally blocking or impeding a motorcyclist in a way that could cause harm to the rider is illegal (CVC 22400).
4) Opening a vehicle door to impede a motorcycle is illegal (CVC 22517).
5) Never drive while distracted.
6) You can help keep motorcyclists and all road users safe by
§ Checking mirrors and blind spots, especially before changing lanes or turning
§ Signaling your intentions before changing lanes or merging with traffic
§ Allowing more following distance, three or four seconds, when behind a motorcycle so the motorcyclist has enough time to maneuver or stop in an emergency




Regards
R
Robin Carlisle
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Offline Hanno @ Mad Macs

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #149 on: February 20, 2013, 08:39:34 am »
It seems he has now given up on answering individual emails.

This is the same as an email posted on previous pages.
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Offline Adventurer

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #150 on: February 20, 2013, 08:43:44 am »
Somewhere it was mentioned that lane splitting speed should not exceed 10kmh more than what the cars are doing, this I agree with.....I have often lane split and had some biker on my ass, I move over, let him pass, FFS, he's gone in a flash, yes, he probably does it more often than I do, but hell, the speed some guys lane split at is crazy.....To enforce this would be impossible, just comes down to common sense I guess.....
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Offline Eisbein

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #151 on: February 20, 2013, 08:49:41 am »
just comes down to common sense I guess.....

Common sense is glad nie so common nie...

 :(
02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #152 on: February 20, 2013, 08:50:29 am »
It seems he has now given up on answering individual emails.

This is the same as an email posted on previous pages.

I got the same quoted part, but with a 'personalised' paragraph on top commenting on something I said.

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #153 on: February 20, 2013, 09:02:27 am »
The guidelines are thought provoking. I have read and agree with most, but a question: in my experience it is more safe to lane split at 110km/h than at 30km/h. Vehicles tend to be more careful when changing lanes at high speed and on highways than at peak hour traffic speeds. If one has to wait for every "it's my right to drive in the right hand lane on the highway at 80km/h" in Cape Town to eventually move over you will wait your life away.
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Offline jpcussen

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #154 on: February 20, 2013, 09:13:12 am »
My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.

I think they should ban scooters - unless you have another bigger bike which proves you can ride. Which I know is not practical but it may stop the 17 year old girl who is weaving around dangerously from taking on our freeways. Look how many scooter riders there are on the freeways now, all hanging on for dear life as cars pass them. Scooters are death traps in that they have no power to get out of trouble, no braking capability and the tiny wheels gives them terrible handling and cornering at speed… couple that with an inexperienced rider, unaware cage drivers and taxi's… recipe for death. Its fine if you live in Rome and want to go to the cafe, or you want to pop down to the shops in the suburbs.... but not for commuting
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Offline Grrrr....

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #155 on: February 20, 2013, 09:28:26 am »
My 2 cents on the issue:

This 30% increase is purely / mainly due to so many twats now on Scooters… so many useless drivers ran out and bought a scooter when the fuel prices went up. I know a few.... Now they are crashing. Thats the 30% increase right there.


Have to agree.

This morning I threw my hands in the air when a scooter rider blew through the exact same @#$%ing stop street I almost caused a international indecent yesterday only to see him skip another one while overtaking a car and gooing like there is no tomorrow....

I hate people.... or I should stop taking my son to school.


Offline Sam

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #156 on: February 20, 2013, 09:46:57 am »
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




Pontificate much?

You forgot the "just wow" part. Like in "wow...just wow".......isn't that what sheeple say when they're about to release their righteous indignation on your ass?

This law will not be making my environment safer for me, and as my actions are not placing others at risk (unlike your taxi example), I will ignore it. No panel required - responsible people can think for themselves.

The proposal is pandering to the lowest common denominator - irresponsible people who are not intelligent enough to visualise the outcomes of their actions (both car drivers not indicating, as an example, and motorcyclists splitting at irrisponsible speeds). The irony is that these people are the least likely to follow a law, even if it is for their own good. There needs to be a Darwinistic outcome for these idiots in order to clean up the gene pool so to say.

So, bottom line is that if it can be adequately proved that this proposal would result in the desired outcome (fewer motorcyclists being culled), it would be a good idea. If, however, it's a "shoot from the hip" publicity stunt / potential porcine revenue generator (as it seems that it is)......you're free to do as you please, and follow the letter of the law "because they tell you to".

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......

 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #157 on: February 20, 2013, 09:49:37 am »

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......


Yes - you are 100% correct.

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Hanno @ Mad Macs

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #158 on: February 20, 2013, 09:52:09 am »

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......


Yes - you are 100% correct.



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Offline Grrrr....

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Re: No more lane splitting for the Western Cape?
« Reply #159 on: February 20, 2013, 09:52:29 am »
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. .....

Wow...

Is there a panel that decides wich laws are unjust and required to be broken, or do we just make it up as we go along ?

Of all the law related comments and justifications/rationalizations/indignations regarding these things this one might just take the cake...




Pontificate much?

You forgot the "just wow" part. Like in "wow...just wow".......isn't that what sheeple say when they're about to release their righteous indignation on your ass?

This law will not be making my environment safer for me, and as my actions are not placing others at risk (unlike your taxi example), I will ignore it. No panel required - responsible people can think for themselves.

The proposal is pandering to the lowest common denominator - irresponsible people who are not intelligent enough to visualise the outcomes of their actions (both car drivers not indicating, as an example, and motorcyclists splitting at irrisponsible speeds). The irony is that these people are the least likely to follow a law, even if it is for their own good. There needs to be a Darwinistic outcome for these idiots in order to clean up the gene pool so to say.

So, bottom line is that if it can be adequately proved that this proposal would result in the desired outcome (fewer motorcyclists being culled), it would be a good idea. If, however, it's a "shoot from the hip" publicity stunt / potential porcine revenue generator (as it seems that it is)......you're free to do as you please, and follow the letter of the law "because they tell you to".

I've wasted more time on this than it warrants......