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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2013, 01:47:19 pm »
OK, rode the bike to work this morning.

Idling is a little rough, but motor smooths out completely above 1500 RPM. Suppose throttle bodies will need synching after all the moving and fittinf and refitting.

What is quite freaky is that when I pull the clutch to stop at intersections, the motor is so quiet, that it sounds like it has stalled. I have to rev the motor a little to find out if it is still running. I cannot hear it until I have stopped completely.  I wonder if it is supposed to be this quiet? I can hear the exhaust tappets both sides, but that is about all.

Now lets hope I tightened and fitted everything correctly.
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2013, 01:48:09 pm »
OK guys. The Farking chain tensioner piston fell out again as I started the motor to leave work! Did not open the motor, but recognized the sound of a loose chain in the head.

Seems like I should have replaced the chains when I had the motor in the above state. Did not even measure the chains at the time, as BMW reckons they should be good for the life of the motor. There was no bore or crank wear, so the motor is still factory spec new.

I am mystifed on how this thing falls out, as it stayed in for over 40kms as well as 5 starts in between to make sure everything is still right.

Can only be a stretched chain. But then it should fall out as I started the bike after fitting.

Any idea on measuring the chain in the motor? maybe with a vernier through the tensioner hole?
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2013, 01:48:50 pm »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside 
Maybe the stationary guide isn't set on both pins? Just a guess.

You replaced the guides, yes?


I checked that. I have pics somewhere, but the guides had no wear whatsoever. Not even a scratch. I originally thought they were worn, but they were as good as new.

The only worn parts in the motor were the Main bearings, big ends and small ends and the rings. The rest either had no scratch on them, or they measured still in factory spec. Will see what the possibility is of the bottom rail not being located properly on the bolt. Visually and prodding it with a screw driver it looks fine. Did not remove the bolt though.

Also note that this was not an issue up to the rebuild. This did not happen before, and I cannot see how the chain could now be more stretched than before.
Thanks for the pointer.
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2013, 01:49:56 pm »
Originally Posted by Poolside 
Just to clarify the tensioner comments. All versions of the tensioners, correctly assembled, are the same length. However parts from the different versions can be assembled into a couple of different wrong-length tensioners.


p.s.: You're making a name for yourself too you know. Just matter-of-factly tearing the motor apart on a hunch. Not for the timid. 


Dont know if it is stupidity or bravery. But experience has taught me that the average mecchie in the market is not the brightest and will never put the same amount of care or thoroughness into your machines as you would. I exclude the wisened old timers that still have a passion for any machine. I know a few of those as well. But very few.

My experience has just been that I would rather trial and error on my own, than pay some a/hole to do it at my cost.

The tensioner is still the same.
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2013, 01:50:50 pm »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoef zoef 
Sir,

Wasn't the left one, also the one you had to get a kink out of it (some posts back?). Could this have damaged the guide, possibly the lower hinge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoef zoef 
Sir,

Wasn't the left one, also the one you had to get a kink out of it (some posts back?). Could this have damaged the guide, possibly the lower hinge?
That was the right side. I stripped off the tappet cover and breather cover and pulled the lower part of the tensioner out of the engine again. Getting good at it. Took about 5 mins tops. Will phone another bmw mechanic tomorrow morning. Its frustrating not to get any cam chain info on the web. Not enough cheap skates like myself who work on these things in the garage.

At this stage it looks like the chain has stretched. Has anyone measured the chain guide gap down the tensioner hole. Bike at tdc left side, locked and with motor turned against the chain to take up all slack at bottom?

Problem is that mechanics that do this as a business dont want to share much info.
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2013, 01:52:21 pm »
Sorry guys, did not get to the hack job part, but I might have found the problem.

OK, took the tensioner internal piston out and gave it a thorough inspection.

First thing I noticed, was that the piston had a rough patch above the shoulder part:



At this point I still thought that the piston is a solid metal piece (the thinner part actually slides into the wider part, and has an internal spring) so I could not see where this was rubbing.

I tried to push the 2 ends together, and found a quarter of a mm of movement, then I tried to turn the 2 halfs. I eventually stuck a screw driver down the center cavity, and all of a sudden the whole thing compressed.







I polished the inner shaft as well as I could, but the operation is still very sticky.

OK, so here is the one theory. The piston was stuck at full length (this explains the very quiet motor, even at startup which normally gives a slight rattle until the oil pressure builds up) As the chain tries to push back against the tensioner, it forces the chain guide sideways, allowing the piston to slip out.

Theory 2. The chain is a little stretched, causing quite some movement in the piston (shown by the rough spot on the thinner shaft in the first pic.) This rough spot causes the tensioner to stick in a shorter position, stopping it from following the chain properly and then fall out at a slack spot straight after a tighter spot has shortened it.

Both of the above options points towards replacing the tensioner. Will try and find a new one here.

Apparently sticky chain tensioners is not too uncommon on the 650s. Nothing to confirm that though.

PS. Thanks for the chain info PS. I am sure I would be needing that going forward.
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 01:53:15 pm »
Ok as per normal, BMW here does not have any spares, but the rider network came through.

Got a second hand left hand tensioner for a case of Heineken beer. Compared that with my old one and there was a massive difference.

Slotted the new one in and tied everything up again. At stqrtup the familiar TUK Tuk tuk was back before everything went nice and quiet.

Been out for 2 rides so far and all seems good.

Lets hope.
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2013, 01:54:20 pm »
OK, left the bike at home when I went working out of country. The wife took the  bike for a few rides, but tells me on my arrival that it sounds a bit noisy. :huh

So I start up, and switch off all in one motion. F@CK! that sounds really terrible.

So here we go again.

Anyway, my Buddy and I now know where all the pieces fit, so 2 hours to take the motor and gearbox out, and an hour to strip the motor down and split it.

Found the new rattle:





OK. So it seems that my cam chains have now finally stretched over the limit (a measurement that I cannot find anywhere). So, the left tensioner which I replaced fell into the motor, causing the slack chains to go beserk and eat up the chain guides. All this then lands in the bottom of the motor and gets blended nicely.

So now I will inspect all the things I changed a 1000kms ago, which is probably a good thing. And then I will change the chains and guides like I should have the first time round.

But so we learn I suppose.:deal
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Offline subie

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2013, 02:15:01 pm »
Friend I am just another backyard mechanic so don't take my opinion too seriously.
When I see another "mechanic" working so recklessly with gasketmaker I start to worry about the basics.
You don't want bits of set gasketmaker landing up in the bike's oil ports.
You never go to all this expence/effort and then skimp on timing chain,tensioner,oil pump etc.
I like your rebuild report and your courage and can do attitude :thumleft:
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Offline subie

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2013, 02:22:04 pm »
must say I have never seen a bearing this bad in a running motor :eek7:
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Offline TVB

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2013, 02:22:53 pm »
I can't believe this.....after all the neat work you have done! However, thanks for posting this as I sure learned a lot here. I would like to know the final cost of rebuilding this motor! Sure she will be good for another 150 000km now although I am a bit suprised as I have heard of 1150 motors that have done in excess of 300 000km~! ?
 

Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 02:33:27 pm »
Can you not get the bearings from Motoworks in the UK?

Problem I have is that I cannot see the colour markings on the crank. After 150k kms its quite gone. (I will be trying again tonight)

You get a white, Green and Yellow set of journal bearings, and all 3 sets come in oversize as well. So 6 different bearings to pick from.

Now, the frustration comes in when I ask the BMW parts guy what the difference is betweeen the 3 types, and I get a "dunno" answer.

I previously had the crank polished and then measured against the figures in the REPROM. It showed the crank was still within factory spec. So I ordered standard big ends. (with the red and blue being another long story). As I have the motor apart now, I decided to give the crank back to be measured again, and the big ends inspected at the same time.

Now the issues surface.  :dousing:
The gap between the standard crank and the standard big ends are on the top limit of wear. WTF? I never had them measured together before, as I needed the crank size to order the bearings. So either the sizing in the manual is wrong, or I got the wrong bearing for the bike, or there was a bad batch.

The white metal bearing that the workshop manager said to me "should be right" now has wear on it. So I expect they took a chance in picking the colour.  :dousing:





Now, if I cannot get the colour of the crank, I need to get the bearing sets in oversize, and have the crank cut to fit. This seems to be the only sure way of getting this right.

Any suggestions would help here.  :thumleft:
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 02:39:00 pm »
Friend I am just another backyard mechanic so don't take my opinion too seriously.
When I see another "mechanic" working so recklessly with gasketmaker I start to worry about the basics.
You don't want bits of set gasketmaker landing up in the bike's oil ports.
You never go to all this expence/effort and then skimp on timing chain,tensioner,oil pump etc.
I like your rebuild report and your courage and can do attitude :thumleft:

So we learn Subie. So we learn..... Not touchy about positive criticism at all  :biggrin:

The 2 halves of the motor "stick" together. No gasket. Used Locktite grey, but it seems like the bonding was a bit poor. Will be ordering the BMW bonding stuff with the rest of the parts.

The BMW workshop manager said the oil pump is still good. I could get no info to measure the chain lengths to. Zip. Nada. BMW said it should be good for the life of the motor. So I stuck it in. A mistake in hindsight, but maybe a blessing, as I can now try and correct the other F@ckups.  :thumleft:
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 02:42:55 pm »
I can't believe this.....after all the neat work you have done! However, thanks for posting this as I sure learned a lot here. I would like to know the final cost of rebuilding this motor! Sure she will be good for another 150 000km now although I am a bit suprised as I have heard of 1150 motors that have done in excess of 300 000km~! ?

The chains and slides are 2k, so if I did it right, and got supplied right, it would have been in the region of 8k to 9k in parts.

Now I have to do bearings and chain tensioner again as well, so we looking at about 12k to 13k.  :deal: Ignorance from me, and the BMW agents is costing me a bit here.
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Offline Beebop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2013, 02:43:21 pm »
Why is there gasket sealer on the conrod ?
 

Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2013, 02:52:39 pm »
Why is there gasket sealer on the conrod ?


Sorry, the pic was zoomed in a bit. That is the main journal bearing with the thrust shoulder on the above pic. Its at the back of the motor.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 03:29:18 pm by Pleco »
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Offline Beebop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2013, 02:57:51 pm »
Why is there gasket sealer on the conrod ?


Sorry, the pic was zoomed in a bit. That is the main journal bearing with the thrust shoulder on the above pic. Its at the back of the motor.

Aah ok, cos that would throw any sizing out.
 

Offline subie

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2013, 02:59:10 pm »
Friend I am just another backyard mechanic so don't take my opinion too seriously.
When I see another "mechanic" working so recklessly with gasketmaker I start to worry about the basics.
You don't want bits of set gasketmaker landing up in the bike's oil ports.
You never go to all this expence/effort and then skimp on timing chain,tensioner,oil pump etc.
I like your rebuild report and your courage and can do attitude :thumleft:

So we learn Subie. So we learn..... Not touchy about positive criticism at all  :biggrin:

The 2 halves of the motor "stick" together. No gasket. Used Locktite grey, but it seems like the bonding was a bit poor. Will be ordering the BMW bonding stuff with the rest of the parts.

The BMW workshop manager said the oil pump is still good. I could get no info to measure the chain lengths to. Zip. Nada. BMW said it should be good for the life of the motor. So I stuck it in. A mistake in hindsight, but maybe a blessing, as I can now try and correct the other F@ckups.  :thumleft:

Golden rule for me has always been. There is no such thing as a engine rebuild without a new oil pump. The heart of the engine.
I don't like/trust that workshop manager that tells you this at 150000km.
Sorry friend I just love tinkering on engines. Not now so much as eyesight is to bad. Enjoying your thread and will try and just read and not comment  :thumleft:
There is few things as satisfying as riding a bike you have rebuild yourself  :ricky:
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2013, 03:05:23 pm »
Why is there gasket sealer on the conrod ?


Sorry, the pic was zoomed in a bit. That is the main journal bearing with the thrust shoulder on the above pic. Its at the back of the motor.

Aah ok, cos that would throw any sizing out.

It has the funny Conrods that are cast in one piece, and the cap end then broken off.

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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2013, 03:37:17 pm »
Just a few time lapse pics: Note the engine stand. This allows me to spin the motor around, and work all around it.  :biggrin:










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