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Offline Lem

Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2013, 02:37:07 pm »
Pleco, what an interseting thread. I have to hand it to you, you have titanium balls&patience attempting this, mate. And I'm sure that there are many Wilddogs who ride 1200's who will be satisfied that there is another one with that class of mielage around. it's also good to see so little wear on the big parts on this 1200 motor.

Last week I was at Raymond Alexander, who also works on Beemers. He is repairing my accident damaged XR. On his bench I saw something that made me the moer in and almost crying at the same time. A 1150 GSA, in for an engine swop at 70 000km, because Mr Owner didn't check the oil too often.....dumbass

Now he got a replacement engine couriered from ACME for R15 000, and that is before any labour costs or servicing. We don't know what the miles are on that 1150 motor, and while the bike is in 5 pieces the owner can just as well do other stuff like the clutch as well.

On that 1150 ADV, I still think spending all that money is a bargain, if you see what new bike are costing.

So with all the time, bleeding knuckels and frustration you have put in, I believe you are getting away with a bargain as well. I hope it will run trouble free for thousands of miles, as Beemers are known to do. 

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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2013, 03:52:54 pm »
Just got the last door back from sand blasting today. Off to galvanizing on Monday. Still have quite a bit to do. All small things. Finding parts are really a problem.

Looking at the bearings tells me that it was due to oil startvation. It's almost a replica of my motor failure. My bearings ceased on the crank and then turned in the rods. I rode it like that for a year before I coudn't handle the clacking sound anymore... :biggrin: I bought the bike like that.

It wasn't actually that bad, believe it or not. Got a moer of skrik when opened the motor though.

These motors are quite similar, so I assume you can just surface grind that oil pump and re-use it? Did mine about 6 years back and still no problem today.

As for the crank, you can also have it cut if need be. Everyone told me that you can't, but mine is still running perfectly. Not sure how many kilo's I've done since.







 If you need parts try Roverland here in CT.

Just came back from the Engineering shop. First thing that I saw was that the owner was running the lathe. Not the appy.
 He said that I must get BMW to eventually supply me the right bearings in the oversize versions. Then torque in all the bearings where they belong and bring it with the loose crank. He will then match the crank to the bearings supplied. He also said that it seems the bearings are running dry. So oil pump will have to go.
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Offline Skipskop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2013, 08:53:05 pm »
This is a worrying thread .But the one thing it does do is to point out to prospective engine "re builders",   how it should not be done . Sorry for the negative comments ,I have nothing to gain by saying this,other than it to help future DIY engine re builders.
Firstly,your one big end journal has got damage marks on it and has to be cut with new bearings to be fitted by an automotive engineer with the correct equipment ,micrometers and plastigage.
The damage caused to your engine and the culprit that caused your bearing failure in the first place,--------the welding job on the sump  :o :o :o . And I can see by your second stripdown that some of that shit is still in you system  :o :o :o by the marks on your expensive new bearings  ???
With all that shit in the oil ,I hope you did a COMPLETE strip down and cleaned each and every oil galery and nook and cranny ,including the crank oil galleries,even better ,have it cleaned at an engineering works that know how to.
You are making a hell of a mess with the gasket sealer.get the correct stuff. That alone could block oil galleries ,which could-?  :o be your timing tensioner problems.
It could also cost you another engine overhaul !
I know you are on a learning curve here ,although it makes me cringe to see somebody working like this, but its your choice.
Without sounding critical,that is why we used to do apprenticeships for this kind of work .
But yes ,then we get called gries monkeys sometimes  ::)
Pleco my wilddog friend ,please don,t take this up wrongly, If I could I would gladly assist you in the engine rebuild . Just a pitty I am not even in cellphone range ,otherwise we couldíve communicated with some help from my side. But feel free to PM me ,even to kak me out for the crit  ;)
And before any clever comments are given . I did my time and I am a QUALIFIED + OLD SCHOOL Automotive engineer and have rebuilt more engines,transmissions and final drives of from lawnmowers to the biggest adn meanest CAT engine you can find in SA than most wilddogs have had breakfast  ;)  
Regards
Clem
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 08:57:58 pm by Skipskop »
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Offline Pleco

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2013, 12:14:10 am »
This is a worrying thread .But the one thing it does do is to point out to prospective engine "re builders",   how it should not be done . Sorry for the negative comments ,I have nothing to gain by saying this,other than it to help future DIY engine re builders.
Firstly,your one big end journal has got damage marks on it and has to be cut with new bearings to be fitted by an automotive engineer with the correct equipment ,micrometers and plastigage.
The damage caused to your engine and the culprit that caused your bearing failure in the first place,--------the welding job on the sump  :o :o :o . And I can see by your second stripdown that some of that shit is still in you system  :o :o :o by the marks on your expensive new bearings  ???
With all that shit in the oil ,I hope you did a COMPLETE strip down and cleaned each and every oil galery and nook and cranny ,including the crank oil galleries,even better ,have it cleaned at an engineering works that know how to.
You are making a hell of a mess with the gasket sealer.get the correct stuff. That alone could block oil galleries ,which could-?  :o be your timing tensioner problems.
It could also cost you another engine overhaul !
I know you are on a learning curve here ,although it makes me cringe to see somebody working like this, but its your choice.
Without sounding critical,that is why we used to do apprenticeships for this kind of work .
But yes ,then we get called gries monkeys sometimes  ::)
Pleco my wilddog friend ,please don,t take this up wrongly, If I could I would gladly assist you in the engine rebuild . Just a pitty I am not even in cellphone range ,otherwise we couldíve communicated with some help from my side. But feel free to PM me ,even to kak me out for the crit  ;)
And before any clever comments are given . I did my time and I am a QUALIFIED + OLD SCHOOL Automotive engineer and have rebuilt more engines,transmissions and final drives of from lawnmowers to the biggest adn meanest CAT engine you can find in SA than most wilddogs have had breakfast  ;)  
Regards
Clem


No issues with the above Boet. There are 2 reasons why I am doing this work in the garage. 1. I don't have enough money to have it done. At the 50k quote, the bike is a write off anyways which I cannot accept. 2. Even if I had the money, there is no mechanic here that I could trust with this job. Had too many issues before. The few good mecchies I know, has very little or no experience with this specific motor. As you said above you are still an old school Ghries monkey  :biggrin: who came through the ranks, and probably worked as an appy under a similar guy. Question is, how many of your kind still out there?  ???

I understand now that I need an engineering shop to match the crank to a set of oversized bearings. What I cannot understand is how standard BMW bearings do not fit on a standard BMW crank. How do they fit these in the factory? Surely they do not match each crank with its own set of bearings?

If I could find any info anywhere on the cam chains, I could measure them and see if they really are stretched. But not even BMW has that info for me. Only solution is to buy new ones to compare, and then replace them and the guides anyway.
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Offline Skipskop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2013, 01:14:02 am »
If you lay the chain flat on the table and push and pull the chain in a stretching and compressing motion, you will be able to see if there is play in the links,if you place your hands about 100mm apart you will get a good indication of how much play there is over that length of chain.
  Also try ,with the chain stretched out on the table ,see how much you can bend (lightly)the chain over the length of the chain,if you know what I mean .
You will see if it is worn that way.
 It could very possibly be that the oil gallery to that piston -tensioner is blocked with the amount of silicone you have on there, follow the route the oil takes from the oil pump to the tensioner and make sure it is clear, blow with airline and make sure the air comes out the other side. The circled area looks like it could be blocked up with silicone ? and although I donít know the specific engine ,that looks like it could be the oil gallery that feeds oil to you hydraulic chain tensioner ? and cylinder head.
After studying all your pics, I am sure this is the timing chain problem,no oil to the tensioner ,resulting in the chain to run slack ,and then lead to the hanfull of parts you just picked up in your cranck case  :o
 Also check if your oil pressure relieve valve is not stuck in the open position from all the grid from the welding that was in the system.
 I appreciate the fact that you are trying to do the job yourself due to financial strain ,we have all been there .
The bottom line is that you have to work systematically ,take you time and double check everything you do.Cleanliness is VERY important
I donít know how the agents do their parts thing ,but I would personally ,looking at your crank ,buy an under size set of big ends ,take that and the crank to a GOOD automotive engineering shop ,let them fit the bearing to the con-rods and grind the crank to fit . That would be the safest option.
I hope you are replacing the damaged con-rod as well ?
Now would be a good time to at least de-coke your cylinder heads,clean all the carbon of the ports. grind the valves and renew the valve stem seals . Check for excessive valve stem ply at this stage as well.....
I hope you get this motor sorted .
Regards
Clem
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 02:20:49 am by Skipskop »
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Offline Skipskop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2013, 01:34:58 am »
This is most definitely your problem .On this pic you see the area that matches up with the red circled area on the first pic. This area is completely blocked up with silicone and preventing oil pressure to activate the hydraulic tensioner piston . The red arrow shows where the oil should flow through to get to the tensioner.
Please boet ,clean out ALL that silicone on the whole engine and throw that tube of silicone in the dustbin !
" Of all the things I lost in life, what I miss the most, is my mind"
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Yamaha CV80 Beluga
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing"
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Offline Skipskop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2013, 01:58:11 am »
Here is your other oil gallery that feeds oil to you rocker shaft  .
So in conclusion, after studying the pics ,I am almost sure this is your loose Timing chain problem and that the chain itself is still fine  ;)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 02:08:01 am by Skipskop »
" Of all the things I lost in life, what I miss the most, is my mind"
DRZ 400 E ,1200GS WR450- KLR650 Side-car
Yamaha CV80 Beluga
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing"
"Old age is not for the inexperienced" "If you haven't grown up by age 50 , you don`t have to"
 

Offline subie

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2013, 09:06:03 am »
Wow! Great stuff Skipskop. So glad Pleco is getting help/advice from a prefessional :thumleft:
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Offline capeklr

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2013, 09:13:48 am »
Silicone sealer is a wonderful problem causer. I've seen a six cylinder BMW car engine eject a conrod because of silicone.
I would get the BMW sealant, which most probably will not be silicone based, but more like locktite which will only harden out in the absence of air.
Use this for the joining of the crankcases only, the rest should be gaskets, use them dry and clean. Any rubber seals and O rings you lubricate lightly.
At 150000km's I would replace all the chains and tensioners.
I would also have those valve guides checked, replace if needed, dekoke the head have the valve seats and valves refaced.
Its winter now anyway, so rather take your time and do it probably.
You've got my number.
 

Offline fixit

Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2013, 09:43:59 am »
Silicone sealer is a wonderful problem causer. I've seen a six cylinder BMW car engine eject a conrod because of silicone.
I would get the BMW sealant, which most probably will not be silicone based, but more like locktite which will only harden out in the absence of air.
Use this for the joining of the crankcases only, the rest should be gaskets, use them dry and clean. Any rubber seals and O rings you lubricate lightly.
At 150000km's I would replace all the chains and tensioners.
I would also have those valve guides checked, replace if needed, dekoke the head have the valve seats and valves refaced.
Its winter now anyway, so rather take your time and do it probably.
You've got my number.

Sound advise  :thumleft:

I've rebuilt stacks of motors and gearboxes. Had one or two failures and it was always due to stupid little errors on my side.
Being a Toolmaker and a qualified fine measuring technician, the biggest problem I see with the backyard mechies is that they don't grasp the importance of accurate tolerance on sizing.

In some cases,  parts can have a +/- of 0.005mm tolerance. It takes a special skill and special equipment just to measure something like that.
On the ADE engines we used used to even get it down to +/- 0.003 mm on roundness and taper.
One cannot even comprehend how small that is.

I use sealant very sparingly. Seen the damage it can cause and how it can effect tolerance in a motor.

Not sure what the design life for these 1200's are, but at 150k, you can be pretty sure that almost every working part would be close to or out of it's manufacturing tolerance, so wherever possible it would be best replace what you can.

With regard to engineering shops, don't always be sure that they know what they are doing. Most of these guys have appies and if your job happens to go to one of them, you could end up with a problem.
I had some spacers made up once for my conversion in my Landy. Got them made by one of the better eng shops here in E.L. To cut it short, they did not work as intended, so I measured them, only to find they had a 0.1mm taper. WTF?

So if you can, be sure to get a second opinion if you are unsure about anything.


« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 10:11:50 am by fixit »
 

Offline Skipskop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2013, 09:55:15 am »
Sound advice Fixet ;-)
" Of all the things I lost in life, what I miss the most, is my mind"
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2013, 10:27:06 am »
Lukas,  1st of all, congratulations on your absolute tenacity, Bulldog se moer!! You have also learnt a lot, and while that is good, you will never become even a semi-OK mechanic from one engine's trials and tribulations. Experience takes more time. Even so you have actually done well, and advice like that from Skipskop, without sugar-coating things is fantastic.

I would recommend using Yamaha's sealer called Yamabond for your metal to metal seals. Yamabond was developed for Yamaha's 2stroke engine casings where no gaskets are used and primary compression is important.

Lastly, on mechanics. I am one, and I can vouch for the fact that a large percentage of "mechanics" should be confined to greasing nipples, interpret that any way you want.
There is however a few good men left, and I like to put myself in the latter category. Now here is the problem, we are deemed "expensive", and people always try and save a buck.
If a good mechanic asks you what seems like a lot of money to rebuild your engine, consider what you have been through here, and his quote may start to look like a good deal.
Which it is.
I admit that to find a good mechanic is not easy. Ask around for references.
 

Offline fixit

Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2013, 10:31:26 am »
Surely he would need BMWbond, not Yamabond?  :biggrin:
 

Offline capeklr

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #73 on: June 01, 2013, 10:38:59 am »
Surely he would need BMWbond, not Yamabond?  :biggrin:

 :lol8: :lol8:
 

Offline Skipskop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #74 on: June 01, 2013, 12:02:55 pm »
Lukas,  1st of all, congratulations on your absolute tenacity, Bulldog se moer!! You have also learnt a lot, and while that is good, you will never become even a semi-OK mechanic from one engine's trials and tribulations. Experience takes more time. Even so you have actually done well, and advice like that from Skipskop, without sugar-coating things is fantastic.

I would recommend using Yamaha's sealer called Yamabond for your metal to metal seals. Yamabond was developed for Yamaha's 2stroke engine casings where no gaskets are used and primary compression is important.

Lastly, on mechanics. I am one, and I can vouch for the fact that a large percentage of "mechanics" should be confined to greasing nipples, interpret that any way you want.
There is however a few good men left, and I like to put myself in the latter category. Now here is the problem, we are deemed "expensive", and people always try and save a buck.
If a good mechanic asks you what seems like a lot of money to rebuild your engine, consider what you have been through here, and his quote may start to look like a good deal.
Which it is.
I admit that to find a good mechanic is not easy. Ask around for references.

Hi Danie,hoop dit gaan goed.
 And yes I agree about the premium you have to pay for a good mechanic as Danie well said. You are paying that premium now for doing double work, but the up side for you is that you are gaining experience that will stay with you for life. Die  kalf is in die put en jy moet hom nou daar uithaal ;-)
" Of all the things I lost in life, what I miss the most, is my mind"
DRZ 400 E ,1200GS WR450- KLR650 Side-car
Yamaha CV80 Beluga
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing"
"Old age is not for the inexperienced" "If you haven't grown up by age 50 , you don`t have to"
 

Offline Mzee

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2013, 06:13:48 am »
This is to you good mechanics: Would it be good to lower your prices and have more customers or raise them and have few or none.  A while ago, every time I moved house, I got someone to install my DSTV cable, etc. I paid nothing less than R500.  I often wondered what it is they did, which made them to charge R500 bucks.  I learnt to do it myself including aligning the dish to the satellite without any tools.  

While doing an engine is a specialist job and highly skilled, I must take off my hat for this mate for doing the impossible.  Importantly I have learnt there there are still some real mechanics here.  I have kept your emails for future need. :lol8:

Again we salute you. Valuable information you have learnt. :thumleft:
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 06:08:09 pm by Mzee »
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Offline Skipskop

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2013, 08:26:45 am »
Mzee ,if I pay you R1 a km to run a 100km a day or I pay you R2 a km to run 50 km a day. Watter een sal jy vat om jou R100 vir die dag te maak? :imaposer:
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 08:28:50 am by Skipskop »
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DRZ 400 E ,1200GS WR450- KLR650 Side-car
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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2013, 08:37:52 am »
Same goes for the mechanic that rushes through his jobs for the day because he is not charging a descent rate to make good business sense ,and although he is a good mechanic ,he is now making mistakes because he is rushing his jobs to get more work out so he can make a living,where-as Donny is charging a bit more  because he is a meticulous mechanic and has no come-backs because he takes his time doing a good job . Comprehendo ?
" Of all the things I lost in life, what I miss the most, is my mind"
DRZ 400 E ,1200GS WR450- KLR650 Side-car
Yamaha CV80 Beluga
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing"
"Old age is not for the inexperienced" "If you haven't grown up by age 50 , you don`t have to"
 

Offline subie

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2013, 09:35:45 am »
For some of us it is unfortunately about money,lack of it.
I am 54 and have never paid a mechanic a cent in my life on any vehicle I have owned until I damaged
our merc's gearbox about 2 years ago.. Then I paid big time :eek7:
I started in an era when cars,bikes were much more straightforward but always I made the effort to read up/study the engine I am going to be working on. Stealing with my eyes from real mechanics the important basic stuff you will never read about in any manual. I cannot remember my own tel number but I can strip an engine completely and just know without much thinking about it where every part,bolt,washer goes. Cannot explain it. I have a love for mechanical things,love the smell of solvents
and combustion gasses etc  :imaposer:
I had this unrealistic dream of owning a sailboat. So i decided to build a large steel yacht. 44feet or 30 000 pd displacement.
Never welded in my life but spend about 3 months practising hanging around welding/engineering shops and before I started my boat I was a good welder. Took me 5 years of back breaking work.
If you love mechanical things,do the homework thoroughly before you jump in. :thumleft:
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Offline T Rex

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Re: BMW 1200GS engine rebuild
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2013, 10:24:59 am »
Very informative reading.  :thumleft: