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Author Topic: Sidetracks not so boring life with a TE610 ->  (Read 12674 times)

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Offline alanB

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2013, 09:41:34 am »
I'm glad to report a thread that started with a mechanical problem is starting to turn into a sweet ride ! Thanks to Alan B's headlight the TE sailed through the roadworthy this morning. Picked up a clutch cable from Blazes and the pull is much better ! Must say they made that cable just the right length, I tried a number of routes and ended up taking the cable underneath the handle bar clamp. Seems to work best on my bike.


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Offline Rough Rider

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2013, 11:42:51 am »
It is the word "hardenable" that may be critical. I understand that EN8 is a very hard carbon steel and may well do the job. I am not sure what effect, if any, machining would have on it but presume the two guys who make aftermarket washers and harden them afterwards see it as an added surety of sorts. The one guy, Dan, hardens and tempers the washers - I think Alan posted details of the process.

The other guy Luke states: "My custom washers are already in production. After careful consideration, I have several experts in the field of hardening of the material consulted and further processing. I picked one of the best materials for such loads. Original washers are beeing made of low carbon tool steel material (...I´ve picked is DIN 20MnCr5) and then tempered on 30-32 HRC (mesured on super rockwell). Because of such surface loads i will not do tepmering, but cementation (surface hardness and core strenght). If you know the procedure, you know what i mean. Surface hardness will be aboult 65-70 HRC...that is special for wear resistance" I know that the one lot (Dan's) remain looking silver and the latter pitch black.

I don't like the fact that there no radius at the transition between the shaft part and mushroom part of the washer. The way the washers in the photographs are machined they have serious stress raiser in this area which is where the cracks initiate which cause the washers to fail. If you look at the broken washers they all break at this transition area.

Can you imagine if the crank-pins on a crankshaft are made with no radius between the pin and the webs? The shaft would break in a very short period. The same with cylinder head valves; there is a serious radius machined between the stem and the mushroom, if it was square, like the washers are then the mushroom would break off the stem in a matter of minutes after starting the engine

You can have the best material in the world but if the design is crap it will still fail. I made very sure that the washers I made had a nice radius in this area.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 11:48:17 am by Rough Rider »
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Offline swart skaap

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2013, 12:01:51 pm »
An added radius makes a lot of sense.

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Offline alanB

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2013, 01:31:50 pm »
It is the word "hardenable" that may be critical. I understand that EN8 is a very hard carbon steel and may well do the job. I am not sure what effect, if any, machining would have on it but presume the two guys who make aftermarket washers and harden them afterwards see it as an added surety of sorts. The one guy, Dan, hardens and tempers the washers - I think Alan posted details of the process.

The other guy Luke states: "My custom washers are already in production. After careful consideration, I have several experts in the field of hardening of the material consulted and further processing. I picked one of the best materials for such loads. Original washers are beeing made of low carbon tool steel material (...I´ve picked is DIN 20MnCr5) and then tempered on 30-32 HRC (mesured on super rockwell). Because of such surface loads i will not do tepmering, but cementation (surface hardness and core strenght). If you know the procedure, you know what i mean. Surface hardness will be aboult 65-70 HRC...that is special for wear resistance" I know that the one lot (Dan's) remain looking silver and the latter pitch black.

I don't like the fact that there no radius at the transition between the shaft part and mushroom part of the washer. The way the washers in the photographs are machined they have serious stress raiser in this area which is where the cracks initiate which cause the washers to fail. If you look at the broken washers they all break at this transition area.

Can you imagine if the crank-pins on a crankshaft are made with no radius between the pin and the webs? The shaft would break in a very short period. The same with cylinder head valves; there is a serious radius machined between the stem and the mushroom, if it was square, like the washers are then the mushroom would break off the stem in a matter of minutes after starting the engine

You can have the best material in the world but if the design is crap it will still fail. I made very sure that the washers I made had a nice radius in this area.

If you think about how the load is carried by these washers in operation, you will see that the force is between the spring and back of the washer, the inside "shaft" bit is just there to locate the washer on the spring.  So none, or very little force runs through that, and hence the stress at the transition between the "shaft" and the rim of the washer is negligible.  So I don't think that has anything to do with why they are failing.

The reason why you see the bits break there is simply because the rim is worn away and becomes too thin.  If you took one of the new washers and just filed away the rim in the same way, whilst hammering on it at the same time, it would eventually break as well, a radius would not help at all IMO.
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2013, 07:44:10 pm »
One of my old washers, you can clearly see wear by both the spring and clutch hub locating side
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Offline BiG DoM

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2013, 08:26:02 am »

[/quote]

If you think about how the load is carried by these washers in operation, you will see that the force is between the spring and back of the washer, the inside "shaft" bit is just there to locate the washer on the spring.  So none, or very little force runs through that, and hence the stress at the transition between the "shaft" and the rim of the washer is negligible.  So I don't think that has anything to do with why they are failing.

The reason why you see the bits break there is simply because the rim is worn away and becomes too thin.  If you took one of the new washers and just filed away the rim in the same way, whilst hammering on it at the same time, it would eventually break as well, a radius would not help at all IMO.
[/quote]

I must agree with Alan here - I do not think comparisons with crankshaft pins and valves are appropriate, completely different sets of forces at play. The shaft is merely a locating mechanism and not load bearing in any way - it is the washer part that is taking the hammering. Anyway do not want to get into dick swinging as too whose washers are better, harder, thicker   >:D  So long as they are doing their job.  :thumleft:
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Offline Rough Rider

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2013, 09:56:42 am »
One of my old washers, you can clearly see wear by both the spring and clutch hub locating side

Just have a look at where the cracks propagated from on the second photo  :deal:
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Offline BiG DoM

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2013, 10:45:53 am »
One of my old washers, you can clearly see wear by both the spring and clutch hub locating side

Just have a look at where the cracks propagated from on the second photo  :deal:

That proves nothing other than the steel washer part was weak under duress and would obviously fracture from the next strongest point ... whether a radius would have prevented this I think would be a moot point ... maybe prolonged the inevitable as the washer got worn thinner and thinner.
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Offline alanB

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen and fixing other niggly bits
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2013, 08:26:45 pm »
One of my old washers, you can clearly see wear by both the spring and clutch hub locating side

Just have a look at where the cracks propagated from on the second photo  :deal:

Ja look ultimately this is an academic argument, but I would predict that a washer with a radius would still crack/break where the radius ends, simply because it wears thin and then breaks off the thicker "shaft".

The key here I think is getting washers that don't wear so fast, but aren't so hard that the clutch plates wear rapidly instead (transferring the problem to the more expensive clutch plates).

That Dan guy in the US quoted a hardness of 44 Rockwell for his washers which isn't fantastically hard, but still quite hard, so again, I think he's got it more or less right - from my simplistic point of view.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 08:27:56 pm by alanB »
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: Metal bits in the oil ..... sorted ...... the 610 mods continue
« Reply #89 on: August 01, 2013, 09:47:32 pm »
Fitted the smaller indicators and after some q's I got hold of a led relay flasher from Offroad Cycles. The new one is round where as the old one is square but it still fits behind the side panel no problem. I made up a small flylead with a spade and pin connector. Almost plug and play. Fitted a H4 globe to the TE250 reflector I got from AlanB, had to cut the stock headlight slightly at the top of the opening then drilled two new mounting holes for the reflector housing.

Old

New

H4
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Offline alanB

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Re: Metal bits in the oil ..... sorted ...... the 610 mods continue
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2013, 10:57:11 am »
Nice  :thumleft:

You may want to rig up a metal heatshield in front of the 50W H4 to stop it melting the plastic lens.  If I remember correctly the TE250 fitting was only rated for a 35W bulb.
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Offline BiG DoM

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Re: Metal bits in the oil ..... sorted ...... the 610 mods continue
« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2013, 12:11:08 pm »
Ja all those standard TE fittings were 35w 'candle in the wind' jobs! WTF?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 10:12:49 pm by BiG DoM »
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: Metal bits in the oil ..... sorted ...... the 610 mods continue
« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2013, 06:52:33 pm »
Nice  :thumleft:

You may want to rig up a metal heatshield in front of the 50W H4 to stop it melting the plastic lens.  If I remember correctly the TE250 fitting was only rated for a 35W bulb.
I got hold of a 35W, I reckon it's still better than the stock globe ? Have yet to try the HID kit, too scared after I read it puts out 30 000 V at startup  :biggrin: I will get the stock headlight back to you  :thumleft:
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2013, 10:38:02 am »
R760 for the labour and parts

Good deal if it lasts.

Mine one, which is similar, has lasted just fine.

It would be interesting to know the density/hardness of the original washers.

Density will tell you nothing, but get me the bits and can tell you hardness and chemical analysis 8)
Welsh could you decipher the composition of the Italian metal ?
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Offline Rough Rider

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Re: Metal bits in oil screen
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2013, 10:39:27 am »
R760 for the labour and parts

Good deal if it lasts.

Mine one, which is similar, has lasted just fine.

It would be interesting to know the density/hardness of the original washers.

Density will tell you nothing, but get me the bits and can tell you hardness and chemical analysis 8)
Welsh could you decipher the composition of the Italian metal ?

I bet is is just common run of the mill carbon steel.
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Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Metal bits in the oil ..... sorted ...... the 610 mods continue
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2013, 10:50:30 am »
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: Metal bits in the oil ..... sorted ...... the 610 mods continue
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2013, 07:37:25 pm »
At 15-46 the TE's 6th gear still feels like an overdrive, has anyone tried 15-48. Punched it into gearing commander and the numbers still looks good, should be a little torque monster offroad as well.
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Offline BiG DoM

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I use a 47 and very happy. Can pull 160kph no worries and perfect for me in the technical stuff.  :thumleft:
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 09:45:12 am by BiG DoM »
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Offline alanB

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I use a 48 back and standard size front sprocket.

Goes nicely  :thumleft:

I can still cruise at 120-130 on the highway and it a lot of fun offroad.

Fuel consumption must be worse though although I havent measured it since I put the sprocket on (a year ago).  The big tank makes measuring fuel consumption a bit trickier bexcause I dont alway remember to re-set the trip meter (when I still had one) and I never fill the tank, unless I going really far.

Also I recently put a T63 on the back, I went for the 120 width because it was really cheap ( :P),  its probably a bit small for the bike.  Consequently the diameter of the tyre is a bit  less than my previous tyre.

The difference in gearing that small change in diameter made was quite noticeable under acceleration, not so much at top end.  I almost got caught out the other day by opening up hard on a long straight of a little nearby MX/quad track and then suddenly realising I might not make the corner which was approaching much faster than usual - had to really brake hard to get round  :biggrin:
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Offline swart skaap

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This is remarkably close to the CRFx with 15-48 gearing. (which I found too tall in 1st gear)
I suspect that your torque-oriented motor might not stall as much as the CRFx in 1st.

Damn that 6th gear is o-so-nice for cruising :thumleft:

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