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Offline AntVan

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'05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« on: August 13, 2013, 09:49:57 am »
After the announcement of the BOTY (which was generally enthusiastically received by this forum  ;D)I thought I'd compare the two bikes in a similar class on which I've spent the most time: the 05 R1200GS and the 2013 R1200GS-LC.

Since I was small my dad told me about the BMW bikes they bought for the traffic officers and the shaft and the boxer combination intrigued me. So I am sorry if I don't take your favourite bike brand into account, it's just that I only have so much money and thus I can only own so many bikes. I am also not trying to dish your decision to stick with the old GS, I still have mine as well, okay. :D I'm a big believer in letting everyone ride what they want.

I've put about 40,000km on the '05 since buying it on 25,000 km or so. To this date I've only put 1,300km on the '13. Obviously this skews things a bit, but stick with me. (UDATE: Now at 6,500 km)

Buying the '13, I had to wait a bit since I was looking for the LED with cruise control. Both are fitted with crash bars, headlight and radiator protectors and various bits such as wide footpegs.
Tires: I've got Anakee 2 on the '05 and Anakee 3 on the '13. The '13 has A-ESA while the '05 has the manual adjusting suspension, stock.

Okay so let's get to the comparison part. On the road the '13 has more power (as is expected) and less windnoise for me. Unconfirmed reports from pillion is that the wind at the back is worse on the '13 but since the pillion seat is higher I can believe it. We are both about 1.72 m tall so we are not the worlds tallest hobbits.

I find the knee position on the '13 makes me more tired, and I've had neck pains initially which disappeared on later rides. '13 seat is more comfortable (having said that with almost 65,000 km on the '05 is probably getting thin in any case). '13 pillion seat is definitely more comfortable and the ability to move the seat forwards or backwards creates an illusion of space the pillion enjoys. See note about height causing wind issues. On the '05 I solved that issue with a Touratech extension but have not found a trick on '13 yet.

Throttle is more lively (I'm glad I've got three-letter acronyms taking care of wheel spin). Since I don't exceed the legal speed limit much I don't know if more power would be useful (here the KTM aces the LC). UPDATE: SWAMBO on the '13 disappeared in the distance, I could not keep up on '05.

Torque on the '05 is more controllable due to the throttle response but one gets used to it eventually on the '13. For the first 1,000km I stalled the bike regularly. It's much better now - I hardly ever stall her and I can find the bite pretty reliably. UPDATE: Of course the MOST important change is the wet clutch on the '13. You can slip that baby without smelling the clutch in technical challenges, in comparison the '05 had to be nursed.

Still the Hella socket is connected to the CanBus so don't try to run your compressor from this. Luckily under the seat there is a nice area for fitting a Hella socket.

Exhaust note: personally I prefer the stock '05 to the stock '13 which is louder and sounds less boxer more twin.

I got used to the universal indicators soon enough. No issues. I've got the GPS preparation but find that the wheel is in the way and thus will never buy the BMW GPS - I will just nick that wheel every time I indicate or something. GPS holder is in the way when standing but one can move it easily enough.

The instrument panel is not too small for me but I hear what others are saying. If your eyes are a bit off you could struggle with the speedometer, I guess.

I use the cruise control a lot and enjoy having it on the short stretches of highway I do on my daily commute.

UPDATE: LEDs rock. They throw a controlled beam that lights exactly where I want it. Don't use the LED daylight without the headlight. You disappear. '05 will blow a bulb every now and then, but for a RTW you can buy bulbs everywhere. LEDs: not so much. Still LED brighter than old school.

With regards to the dreaded headshake; on some roads, if the planets align, I can see a slight oscillation at 80 km/h and decelerating EDIT: if I take both my hands off the bars. I've reported this just to be sure with my dealer. I've not had a headshake that would worry me. In fact, I can't feel it at all with my hands on the bars, I have to release my hands to induce the symptom. So while not blind to the issue, it's not been an issue for me yet (touch wood).

On tar the '13's suspension kicks the '05 - I have occasionally dragged the main stand in high speed turns with pillion and luggage on the '05, while the '13 does it's thing without squatting due to the A-ESA's lean sensor and suspension position sensors. I also think the longer swingarm on the '13 makes for a better ride. EDIT: Two-up results in the bike being a wee bit tall for my middle-earthy hobbit length.

Brakes: reported braking distance on the '13 is slightly worse than '05 and I do feel the ABS more on the '13 than on the '05. Less spongy on '13 and still awesome.

Offroad: (Note that I've not used the Enduro Pro mode much and I'm still hesitant to drop the bike). '13 suspension is much better than '05. Corrugated roads don't bother me as they did in '05. Cornering on '13 more confident, I can get a lot of feedback from the front, surprisingly with all the electronics in the way. Since I have not done a lot of sand, I will reserve this for later. The little bit I did was not conclusive, although I think the '13 was better.

Ground clearance more or less the same: but I am a careful guy most of the time. My riding style is slow in any case.

Brakes offroad are awesome. Enduro mode with a bit of front and full back brake stops me every time. '05 had to switch of ABS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Jig.

More power means it's easier to get the front up for clearing holes and rocks on '13.

Narrower seat on '13 gives me more control in slow stuff, especially for hobbitses like myself.

UPDATE: did not find neutral as tricksy as others reported. But after a while it's even less.

In summary the '13 is a nicer bike than the '05 I find with the following exceptions:
Exhaust.
Pillion windnoise.
RTW: probably would be stupid to take the '13 on a RTW since the electronics WILL die somewhere. But for that I'd probably get a more suitable bike. Possibly an orange one.

UPDATE: I don't know. I took the '13 with my lovely pillion and we both love the bike. I love it more than the '05 although it hurts me to say. Yes the first service was merske expensive due to the oil, but whattabike.

UPDATE: BMW is attending to either the rumours of a headshake or the headshake itself by fitting a steering damper on the '14 models. This is according to those in the know (citation needed) due to the same frame being used for the RT and the RT has a different load profile, and thus requires a damper. It's less effort to fit the damper to the GS as well since the frame runs on the same line. Yeah right.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 01:58:13 pm by AntVan »
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Offline stan1975

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2013, 10:12:58 am »
Nice report, will stick with my trusty '06 for the meantime
Ride within yourself, think ahead... Plan your escape route & be safe.... Just remember no one else knows what your thinking until you tell them...
 

Offline AntVan

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2013, 02:40:14 pm »
Of course, I invite comments from Dogs who owns an old GS or who owns an LC, or both. Are your experiences the same?
I don't always drop my bike, but when I do, I prefer to drop her in front of a crowd
 

Offline sandvlooi

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2013, 09:03:13 pm »
I ride a '11 GSA as well as the new LC.

Let me sum it up this way:
The LC is exiting to ride, you have to take care not to become a hooligan. The torque feels almost limitless. After an oil change your pocket is considerably flatter  ;)

Back on the GSA it feels like I'm on old trusty. Just cruising, can go anywhere anytime. Cheap and easy to maintain. If possible I will keep it, someday it will be a classic.

Edit: and that is why my avatar won't change anytime soon.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 09:04:06 pm by sandvlooi »
 

Offline T Rex

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2013, 09:28:48 pm »
Thanks for the info...... Will follow this with interest !!
 

Offline krister

Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2013, 09:36:18 pm »
Thanks!  Interesting read...
Previous Bikes: Suzuki TS50ER; Suzuki GS1000G; Kawasaki Z1000; Yamaha XT500; BMW F650GS; BMW R1150GS; BMW R1200GS Adventure
 

Offline lecap

Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 09:35:03 am »
...
UPDATE: BMW is attending to either the rumours of a headshake or the headshake itself by fitting a steering damper on the '14 models, and they are removing Enduro Pro. One can only speculate why the latter.

I guess:
The steering geometry has been changed to a more aggressive setup if compared to the previous telelever models.
This makes the steering feel very light and responsive, reported by basically all testers. A light and responsive steering was something I never experienced when U-turning the R1100GS. It felt more like pushing a wheelbarrow piled full of bricks :D

The ESA adjusts spring preload and shock damping characteristics.
I guess again that the "Enduro Pro" mode drops the front preload in relation to the rear to achieve a more responsive steering geometry.
Your report of the bike developing a bit of flutter / shimmy on deceleration leans the same way. Typically deceleration shifts vehicle weight forwards which in turn compresses the front suspension and has potential to destabilise the bike.
Did you try out if the flutter is equally pronounced in various suspension settings?

Telelever kinematics are quite different from telescopic forks kinematics:
A diving telescopic front end steepens its steering angle. With the rake (the orthogonal distance between steering angle and wheel axis) being constant your front wheel trail (the distance between the point where the steering axis intersects the road surface and the centre of the tires contact patch) shortens. Shorter trail typically makes your steering twitchy and in extreme cases unstable.
If you ride over a bump (ideally) your steering geometry won't change as the suspension absorbs the bump.
Telelever uses the control arm (amongst other things) to lessen brake dive. The setup also causes the rake to increase as the suspension compresses.
The increase in rake shortens the front wheel trail.
The Telelever minimises handling changes under (front wheel) braking by eliminating brake dive but the geometry and handling changes if you ride over a bump.

Long story short:
IMHO there is something wrong with the geometry of the R1200GS LC front suspension which under extreme conditions causes instability.
I say there is something wrong because the light steering is due to a changed geometry if compared to the older Telelever bikes. I have not heard of instability issues on the older Telelevers nor have I experienced any myself on the R1100GS.

Removing the Enduro Pro suspension mode and fitting a steering damper IMHO is doctoring the symptoms not fixing the cause.
Doing the upgrades only on the 2014 model would make a 2013 model buyer an expendable lab rat?

<Edited misplaced bracket moved to correct place>

« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:16:19 pm by lecap »
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Offline sandvlooi

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 10:18:45 am »
(.... blah)

Removing the Enduro Pro suspension mode and fitting a steering damper IMHO is doctoring the symptoms not fixing the cause.
Doing the upgrades only on the 2014 model would make a 2013 model buyer an expendable lab rat?

No, it's mostly due to rumours created by brand bashers who have not even been on the bike (have you?) spreading false info (for whatever reason). So their thinking is probably "lets add a damper (like the KTM) to finally lay this thing to bed, even if it is not really needed."

As to your theory that the steering geometry is wrong, this is the tech data:
Steering head angle   64.5 (LC)
Steering head angle   64.3 (Pre LC)

I seriously doubt that .2 of a degree will make much of difference. The state and type of the tyre and suspension setup will make a bigger difference.

What if someone started spreading rumours about you or your business?
 

Offline lecap

Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 02:15:01 pm »
(.... blah)

Removing the Enduro Pro suspension mode and fitting a steering damper IMHO is doctoring the symptoms not fixing the cause.
Doing the upgrades only on the 2014 model would make a 2013 model buyer an expendable lab rat?

No, it's mostly due to rumours created by brand bashers who have not even been on the bike (have you?) spreading false info (for whatever reason). So their thinking is probably "lets add a damper (like the KTM) to finally lay this thing to bed, even if it is not really needed."

As to your theory that the steering geometry is wrong, this is the tech data:
Steering head angle   64.5 (LC)
Steering head angle   64.3 (Pre LC)

I seriously doubt that .2 of a degree will make much of difference. The state and type of the tyre and suspension setup will make a bigger difference.

What if someone started spreading rumours about you or your business?


So you say the geometry is the same as in the older bikes?
Is the control arm the same length?
Is the geometry of the points where the control arm connects to the forks and rest of the bike the same?
Is the front wheel trail the same?
(I think I did explain that there is a very basic difference between the kinematics of a telelever and a telescopic fork)

If everything is the same how do you explain that the bikes steering feels dramatically different to the older bikes? Or are all the testers lying? And why did the older bikes not tank slap - at least not to the same extent ???

Maybe read again through the ...blah part you edited out of your quote of my post.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." (Red Adair)
 

Offline sandvlooi

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 04:19:42 pm »
So you say the geometry is the same as in the older bikes?
Is the control arm the same length?
Is the geometry of the points where the control arm connects to the forks and rest of the bike the same?
Is the front wheel trail the same?
(I think I did explain that there is a very basic difference between the kinematics of a telelever and a telescopic fork)
Nobody disputes that there is a difference between telelever and telescopic forks.
Btw. front wheel trail and steering head angle is directly related, that is why manufacturers do not specify both.
I have not measured the other points. Have you?

So you say the geometry is the same as in the older bikes?
If everything is the same how do you explain that the bikes steering feels dramatically different to the older bikes? Or are all the testers lying? And why did the older bikes not tank slap - at least not to the same extent ???
This is exactly my point. It does not feel "dramatically" different.
Please name those testers (ever heard of the placebo effect?).
I had a serious slapper on a 2004 R1200GS. All bikes tank slap under certain conditions. I have a damper on my GSA for that very reason. Funny enough, have not felt the need for it on the LC.
Al I'm saying is go take a test drive for your own (and mine :)) sanity sake, then you can talk from experience.
Let me know if you do, maybe I can join you for the ride.
 

Offline Davew

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 10:00:34 pm »
Pretty fair report Ant
Most points match my own experience on the LC compared to the older GS. I had an '08 and later the '10, so pre and post the last engine upgrade before the LC.

I love the extra power and flat torque curve on the new one, no comparison really.
The ride is a whole lot more refined, not dramatically different in any way. Got off the 2010 and on to my 2013 LC and very quickly felt at home.
On tar, awesome ride, better than the old - combination of better power delivery and refined handling.
On dirt highways, at least as good as the older model.
More technical than that is hard to say, not done enough yet to be definitive, but seems just fine so far.
I played with all the riding modes and certainly feel the difference and one gets the sense they are doing more or less what is asked of them.
I think my riding style is getting slower with age, luckily, so the 1190 as exciting as it sounds and I wish I could fully appreciate, it is not really for me.

I have absolutely no issues with stability, the odd wobble of course, but that's road surface derived and nothing to make me worry.
This has been tried on various surfaces and with and without any combination of luggage you can dream up.
My '08 GS used to get a mild head shake at 70/80km/h, perhaps that was the tyres that had worn oddly - so a similar thing on the new LC reported by some does not seem all that big a deal to me really.

My thoughts on the whole headshake thing are as follows:
A few cases of a more scary slapper is a worrisome thought and I put it down to the electronics having some bugs still, which tend to get sorted out with successive upgrades to the "brains" every time you get a service - good motivation for servicing at a dealer!
Is there something fundamentally wrong with the design? I doubt it - there are industry standards for design and testing, which can still leave some room for error in 2013, but a whole lot less so than in 1973!
For a first year run of a model, there is undoubtedly a small percentage of bikes that warrant some retro active attention due a cumulative set of close to out of tolerances leading some undesirable side effects.
That's quite normal for any made made machine, despite the best of intent and is not unique to any one brand or type of machine. Look no further the few cases of the Triumph Explorer, which seem to be largely resolved now, and if you want other non-bike examples, try the Boeing Dreamliners and their battery issues.

I figure if there was any signs of the much debated headshake malady on my own bike, I'd have had some inkling of it by now, but nothing at all. I like to think I have a fair bit of mechanical sympathy so would expect some sense of something awry if so.

In short I'm loving the bike bike and the ride - suits me just perfectly!
 

Offline lecap

Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 08:21:12 am »
...Btw. front wheel trail and steering head angle is directly related...

Front wheel trail is determined by steering head angle, rake and wheel diameter. An equation with three variables. The rake of the Telelever is not a constant (see my earlier post). You call that a direct relation ???

...For a first year run of a model, there is undoubtedly a small percentage of bikes that warrant some retro active attention due a cumulative set of close to out of tolerances leading some undesirable side effects...

...and if you want other non-bike examples, try the Boeing Dreamliners and their battery issues...

What is retro active about that? BMW does nothing about the 2013 and an awful lot about the 2014?

As far as I have heard they add a steering damper and delete a whole mode of the electronic suspension in 2014.

You say: "a cumulative set of close to out of tolerances (leads to) some undesirable side effects"
Means whilst no single component by itself is a dud the whole assembly becomes one.
This is a very basic engineering flaw.
Besides that: On what facts do you base that statement? Or is it just as speculative as my opinion that the steering geometry of the bike is critical?
Note that I based my opinion on test reports given by testers which claim that the bikes steering does feel different than the old 1200's.
You discredit the testers as fools falling for a placebo effect.

If "a cumulative set of close to out of tolerances" pushes the tolerances of an assembly to become unacceptable you fix this by either specifying closer tolerances or by selecting and combining components according to their tolerances to achieve an acceptable result. Not by fitting an additional component (steering damper) and deleting an operational mode (Enduro Pro) from future bikes.

Since you use that example:
Did you notice that FAA, EASA and other flight safety organisations as well as users grounded the 787 until the battery issues were resolved?

And: Do I have to be a pilot and fly a Boeing 787 Dreamliner until a battery experiences thermal runaway before I am qualified to comment on a potential problem ???
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 08:26:47 am by lecap »
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Offline sandvlooi

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 08:43:23 am »
...Btw. front wheel trail and steering head angle is directly related...

Front wheel trail is determined by steering head angle, rake and wheel diameter. An equation with three variables. The rake of the Telelever is not a constant (see my earlier post). You call that a direct relation ???
Rake is measured from the vertical, steering head angle from the horizontal. Same thing, different way of saying it - that is if you studied basic maths at school.
Wheel diameter has not changed, so that is a constant.
Thus one variable that influences trail - unless there is fork offset (which there is not).

Anyhow - all this is still theory and just smart talk and not worth much until you actually get on the bike and ride it.
Only then I will take your opinion seriously.

For now, peace.
 

Offline Davew

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 09:44:03 am »
Lecap,
Not arguing with you on one point - if there is something wrong - the manufacturer needs to fix it, period.
The whole motor industry is full of recalls, so it is always a journey of continual improvement.
But any action assumes an issue is isolated and a solution/fix found.

At this time, there is only a hint of a problem on a pretty small fraction of bikes with an issue, referring to the LC.
I cannot agree that unknown cumulative effects is a "very basic" engineering design flaw. Engineering design and modelling the behaviour of complex parts with a high number of variables in a variable environment  is a whole lot harder than that - as a geotechnical engineer where the knowns are even less precise than mechanical, I can testify to that.
Your opinion that there is something fundamentally wrong based on hearsay and other opinion or circumstantial evidence is just that - an opinion. Your opinion may even prove to be true  ;)

I'm not saying there is not a possible flaw but until somebody figures it out, it can only be treated symptomatically. How do you think your doctor works??
Right now, I'm happy with my own specific bike and will continue to be cautiously optimistic about it remaining so.

So if a steering damper for 2014 further reduces a risk for the mean time, that's ok for now. If it eradicates the issue altogether, then maybe we will see an advisory to retrofit them to the 2013 bikes as a precaution.

The motor industry does not act quite as the aviation industry simply because the consequence of failure are not as severe.

Cheers and ride safe  :ricky:

 

Offline lecap

Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 09:48:06 am »
Rake is measured from the vertical, steering head angle from the horizontal. Same thing, different way of saying it - that is if you studied basic maths at school...

Time to get your terminology straight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_and_trail

I actually explained it before. Rake is the perpendicular distance between steering axis and wheel axis and it changes with suspension travel in a Telelever front.
You should maybe read the ...blah!?

Engineering is the science of knowing how things work without having to try it fist.

Davew is a pilot flying Boeing 787 because he comments on the Dreamnliners battery thermal runaway issues ???
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." (Red Adair)
 

Offline sandvlooi

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2013, 10:33:21 am »
Rake is measured from the vertical, steering head angle from the horizontal. Same thing, different way of saying it - that is if you studied basic maths at school...

Time to get your terminology straight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_and_trail

I actually explained it before. Rake is the perpendicular distance between steering axis and wheel axis and it changes with suspension travel in a Telelever front.
You should maybe read the ...blah!?

Engineering is the science of knowing how things work without having to try it fist.

Funny, when I read the same article you reference, it defines rake as:
"In motorcycles, the steering axis angle is called the rake and is measured from the vertical."
"In bicycles, fork offset is also called fork rake."
We are dealing with a motorcycle here. Or is that also under dispute  :biggrin:?

Furthermore you keep saying: "it changes with suspension travel in a Telelever front".
How is it relevant to the discussion?
Remember the topic is "05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS".
Both bikes have the same wheel diameter, same telelever suspension and almost the same steering head angle.

Btw. the steering head angle (and thus rake - by the correct definition) and trail changes with normal telescopic forks as well, it's not unique to Telelever.
After a lot of engineering work, eventually you have to test as well. I do it.

This reminds me a lot about the joke of the Greek philosophers who reasoned for many years why men have more teeth than woman... that is until one day they decided to look for themselves.
 

Offline lecap

Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2013, 09:19:38 am »
Oh my, how difficult can it be ???

Just look at this picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bicycle_dimensions.svg
Do you think it makes any difference if you put an engine or a crank in ??? Just to be able to use different terms for the same thing? Unfortunately there is no ISO whatsoever to tell us how to do it. I think my post no6 contains a good and valid explanation of the terms trail and rake which you want to dispute because someone calls something else rake ???



...
Btw. the steering head angle (and thus rake - by the correct definition) and trail changes with normal telescopic forks as well, it's not unique to Telelever...
You're not even trying to understand anything I say.
Neither do you seem to understand the kinematic differences between a Telelever and telescopic forks. Proof to my point in your earlier post here:

...Btw. front wheel trail and steering head angle is directly related...
Front wheel trail is determined by steering head angle, rake and wheel diameter. An equation with three variables. The rake of the Telelever is not a constant (see my earlier post). You call that a direct relation ???
Thus one variable that influences trail - unless there is fork offset (which there is not).
The perpendicular distance between steering axis and front wheel axis changes as the Telelever travels. Call this offset or rake or daffodil constant whatever you prefer. It is there, and it is even variable. In a telescopic fork it is constant.



Both bikes have the same wheel diameter, same telelever suspension and almost the same steering head angle.
R1200GS Telelever control arm part numbers 31427706748 (2010) and 31428522970 (2012LC) You say they are the same? Or maybe just almost the same?
Now we have bikes with almost the same steering geometry build from almost the same parts handling almost identical ???

Have fun with your pink BMW shades!



For those interested in the differences between the two bikes maybe rather check this thread:
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=131535.0
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." (Red Adair)
 

Offline sandvlooi

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2013, 12:26:36 pm »
Ag nee man, ons praat nie eens dieselfde taal nie :biggrin:.

This is an interesting article (again,  not using bicycle terms), which explains graphically how telelever and telescopic forks differ:
http://www.dinamoto.it/dinamoto/8_on-line_papers/Telelever%20or%20forks/Telelever_eng.html

Let's just agree to disagree (on almost every thing except the lousy weather the last few days?).
I'll go right back, putting on my rosy coloured shades as soon as the sun shines ;D
 

Offline AntVan

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Re: '05 R1200GS compared to '13 R1200GS
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 03:44:14 pm »
So something makes the bike steer lighter. Agreed? Thanks for the informative debate. After living with it for a month or so I've updated some more specifics. In October we're going to GS Eco Challenge and will have even more feedback. Trailer-ing the bike sucks. I'd rather ride.
I don't always drop my bike, but when I do, I prefer to drop her in front of a crowd