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Author Topic: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013  (Read 55170 times)

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Offline alanB

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #840 on: December 05, 2013, 03:33:28 pm »
It sounds to me like the majority support this because they like to feel like they have power for a change. Maybe they feel that they don't currently have any political power, so for the first time they feel they have some power. People seem to have a go at people who don't support the protest, but mainly because it reduces their power.

Those that are supporting a political agenda seem to mainly be protesting the miss-use of tax due to corruption and inefficiencies. Problem is it that fixing corruption would not pay for the roads upgrades. It costs money to crack down on corruption. It costs money to make tax spending more efficient. It may not be economical to pay for road upgrades by reducing corruption. But it may be economical to use e-toll. Ultimately the roads will not be maintained unless tax payers pay for it. And ultimately the government will not work unless politicians are responsible for their actions. Two separate issues.

Dont completely agree.

To me the cause effect chain is quite clear:

1) Government is wasting money in massive chunks.
2) Public does nothing about that
3) Government carries on and thus is constantly short of money for all sorts of things - including road maitnenance
4)  Government see's the opportunity to collect even more money from etolls

- Now if we do nothing you can just go back to point 1) and carry on with that cycle, where point 4 will become some other scheme to raise money.

OR

You can stop the etolls and break the cycle.

That's the way I see it.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:35:19 pm by alanB »
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Offline g1_

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #841 on: December 05, 2013, 03:40:59 pm »
Dont completely agree.

To me the cause effect chain is quite clear:

1) Government is wasting money in massive chunks.
2) Public does nothing about that
3) Government carries on and thus is constantly short of money for all sorts of things - including road maitnenance
4)  Government see's the opportunity to collect even more money from etolls

- Now if we do nothing you can just go back to point 1) and carry on with that cycle, where point 4 will become some other scheme to raise money.

OR

You can stop the etolls and break the cycle.

That's the way I see it.


Breaking the chain will not make the government responsible for their actions (corruption). It will just break the countries economy. Making the government responsible is about educating the masses that it is their responsibility to make the government accountable.
 

Offline g1_

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #842 on: December 05, 2013, 03:43:12 pm »
That being said, I'm not saying I don't support the protest. I enjoy watching the government sweat. But ultimately the public must pay for the maintenance.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:44:07 pm by g1_ »
 

Offline alanB

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #843 on: December 05, 2013, 03:45:34 pm »
Still don't agree, corrupt people will try anything they think they can get away with.  If you start showing that cannot get away with the stuff they used to anymore their options narrow, and a whole lot of things they were/are dreaming of suddenly become nonviable.

The masses aren't relevant, they don't have money.  Its all about extracting your money from you.  You need to stop handing it over so willingly - thats what this is all about IMO.
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Offline g1_

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #844 on: December 05, 2013, 03:49:05 pm »
Still don't agree, corrupt people will try anything they think they can get away with.  If you start showing that cannot get away with the stuff they used to anymore their options narrow, and a whole lot of things they were/are dreaming of suddenly become nonviable.

The masses aren't relevant, they don't have money.  Its all about extracting your money from you.  You need to stop handing it over so willingly - thats what this is all about IMO.

Your mistake in the logic is assuming that those wasting money and those behind the e-toll share one collective consciousness. By stopping e-toll, you will not stop people from being corrupt. As stated before. The only way to narrow peoples options to be corrupt is to make them accountable.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:50:22 pm by g1_ »
 

Offline Bundu

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #845 on: December 05, 2013, 03:55:52 pm »
Still don't agree, corrupt people will try anything they think they can get away with.  If you start showing that cannot get away with the stuff they used to anymore their options narrow, and a whole lot of things they were/are dreaming of suddenly become nonviable.

The masses aren't relevant, they don't have money.  Its all about extracting your money from you.  You need to stop handing it over so willingly - thats what this is all about IMO.

Your mistake in the logic is assuming that those wasting money and those behind the e-toll share one collective consciousness. By stopping e-toll, you will not stop people from being corrupt. As stated before. The only way to narrow peoples options to be corrupt is to make them accountable.

I agree, but we have to show govt that they can not just introduce new taxes as they feel and then collect these taxes in such an inefficient manner, that forces one to assume there is corruption in e-tolling as a collection mechanism - the fuel levy would have caused hardly a reaction

Offline alanB

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #846 on: December 05, 2013, 03:56:37 pm »
Still dont agree  :biggrin:

Think of it as say a body corporate.  

If they want to raise the levy but are wasting huge chunks of money (maybe through corruption or whatever it actually doesnt matter), its not unreasonable for the residents to say - we don't accept your reasons for the proposed  raise, first fix your internal problems and use the money better.

That way you cause a crisis and the trustees start having to find another way to sort out their issues, when there was no real pressure before to do so.  If they have no reason to sort out their  problems why should they?

That's more or less what I'm trying to say.
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Offline g1_

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #847 on: December 05, 2013, 04:06:14 pm »
@Bundu: Yes that is a valid point.

Still dont agree  :biggrin:

Think of it as say a body corporate.  

If they want to raise the levy but are wasting huge chunks of money (maybe through corruption or whatever it actually doesnt matter), its not unreasonable for the residents to say - we don't accept your reasons for the proposed  raise, first fix your internal problems and use the money better.

That way you cause a crisis and the trustees start having to find another way to sort out their issues, when there was no real pressure before to do so.  If they have no reason to sort out their  problems why should they?

That's more or less what I'm trying to say.

But as stated. What if fixing the internal problem costs more than the actual problem in the first place. Admittedly this is speculation and actually impossible to quantify.

Applying pressure only works if it's viable for them to solve the problem by weeding out corruption.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 04:07:48 pm by g1_ »
 

Offline alanB

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #848 on: December 05, 2013, 04:09:57 pm »
A separate point on the etolls specifically -  if you think about it, whats the difference between raising the extra money (which dont believe they need, but lets ignore that for now), via the fuel levy, increased normal taxes, VAT or any other means as opposed  etolls?

Well they all boil down to more or less the same thing with one glaring exception - the huge "collection fee" attached to etolls.

In none of the other mechanisms can private individuals benefit from a stream of cashflow enabled by law.

That alone makes me VERY suspicious of etolls, and even if a miracle occurs and there is no fraud involved (the current track record doesnt support that at all - right?), it still means its the WORST way of collecting money for the road improvements!  This has been OUTA's point all along and I think they are 100% right.
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Offline g1_

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #849 on: December 05, 2013, 04:15:57 pm »
I do agree that etolls is an inefficient mechanism for collecting this money. And as I stated I enjoy seeing the government sweat, for a change.
 

Offline RobC

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #850 on: December 05, 2013, 04:25:17 pm »
I do agree that etolls is an inefficient mechanism for collecting this money. And as I stated I enjoy seeing the government sweat, for a change.

Should government apply the fuel levy for its original intent and not toss it into the general fiscus as is happening presently there will be sufficient funds to build and maintain a 1st world road system. :sip:
 

Offline Beebop

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #851 on: December 05, 2013, 04:27:50 pm »
I do agree that etolls is an inefficient mechanism for collecting this money. And as I stated I enjoy seeing the government sweat, for a change.

Should government apply the fuel levy for its original intent and not toss it into the general fiscus as is happening presently there will be sufficient funds to build and maintain a 1st world road system. :sip:
But then where would the money come from for the 20 odd million social grants ?
 

Offline g1_

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #852 on: December 05, 2013, 04:31:59 pm »
Should government apply the fuel levy for its original intent and not toss it into the general fiscus as is happening presently there will be sufficient funds to build and maintain a 1st world road system. :sip:

Correct. But I don't think this takes away from my previous comments :sip:
 

Offline RobC

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #853 on: December 05, 2013, 04:32:21 pm »
I do agree that etolls is an inefficient mechanism for collecting this money. And as I stated I enjoy seeing the government sweat, for a change.

Should government apply the fuel levy for its original intent and not toss it into the general fiscus as is happening presently there will be sufficient funds to build and maintain a 1st world road system. :sip:
But then where would the money come from for the 20 odd million social grants ?
It is a fuel levy not a social grant tax... it should be applied as it's name says or scrapped if it is no longer used for that purpose.
Social grants is a topic on it's own too... let me not get started on THAT issue. >:D
 

Offline Beebop

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #854 on: December 05, 2013, 04:35:43 pm »
I do agree that etolls is an inefficient mechanism for collecting this money. And as I stated I enjoy seeing the government sweat, for a change.

Should government apply the fuel levy for its original intent and not toss it into the general fiscus as is happening presently there will be sufficient funds to build and maintain a 1st world road system. :sip:
But then where would the money come from for the 20 odd million social grants ?
It is a fuel levy not a social grant tax... it should be applied as it's name says or scrapped if it is no longer used for that purpose.
Social grants is a topic on it's own too... let me not get started on THAT issue. >:D
problem came about many moons ago when the ring fence around fuel tax was removed and it dropped into the "big pot of money"
 

Offline Bundu

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #855 on: December 05, 2013, 04:36:51 pm »
I do agree that etolls is an inefficient mechanism for collecting this money. And as I stated I enjoy seeing the government sweat, for a change.

Should government apply the fuel levy for its original intent and not toss it into the general fiscus as is happening presently there will be sufficient funds to build and maintain a 1st world road system. :sip:
But then where would the money come from for the 20 odd million social grants ?
It is a fuel levy not a social grant tax... it should be applied as it's name says or scrapped if it is no longer used for that purpose.
Social grants is a topic on it's own too... let me not get started on THAT issue. >:D

we should have insisted on that when the NATs changed the ring fencing years ago to use the money for war

Offline KiLRoy

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #856 on: December 05, 2013, 04:37:31 pm »
I agree with Alan, sometimes one has to hurt real bad to change your behaviour. Think government must feel it at the polls. Maybe lose a province or 3. Thats the only way they will learn.
 

Offline alanB

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #857 on: December 05, 2013, 04:45:00 pm »
Quote
Applying pressure only works if it's viable for them to solve the problem by weeding out corruption.

So far it seems to me that very little is done about the lavish lifestyles, wasteful expenditure, corruption etc.  They can use their majority to shout down or sideline anyone that tries - you can see that in the press.  

Just look at the constant stream of attacks from her own government the Public Protector has to endure (hats off to that brave woman by the way).

But threatening to shut off the money tap gets their attention STRAIGHT AWAY. Because they know the cycle cannot continue then.  Where is next year's lavish lifestyle going to come from?  If it comes down to ejecting the worst offenders and shutting down blatant abuses or their own jobs, who do you think they will choose?  Right now its just "game on" with no limits!
 
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Offline dirtyXT

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« Reply #858 on: December 05, 2013, 05:03:31 pm »
well. didnt the credit removal indicate a turning point? before that it was urban legend stuff in.white newspaper's.  now its a known fact admitted by the perpetrators. right direction I would say. audits are happening and waiting. I think the tide is turning.
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Offline g1_

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Re: E-Tolls go live - 3 December 2013
« Reply #859 on: December 05, 2013, 05:03:37 pm »
But you can't simply eject the worst offenders. It costs money to find out who the worst offenders are. Then it costs money in legal fees to do the ejecting. This brings me back to my original point. It might not be economical.