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Online Bundu

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2013, 12:00:48 pm »
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
 

Online RobC

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2013, 12:24:26 pm »
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?
 

Offline Tr0jan

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2013, 12:49:42 pm »
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?

They need to be kept for five years! so after two months they cant prove squat? Would like to see how that one holds up in court.


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Offline PierreO

Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2013, 12:51:11 pm »
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?

I don't think theft can be classified as a financial transaction .
 

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2013, 12:58:35 pm »
I see now that the T&Cs say " We keep photographic images for at least 60 calendar days."
To be fully compliant with financial record keeping that is not sufficient... :sip:
E-Tolls are after all a financial transaction are they not?

I don't think theft can be classified as a financial transaction .
Oh, you HAVE a tag... :biggrin:
 

Offline wiledog_X

Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2013, 01:38:35 pm »
"It is now at the discretion of every road user to decide whether or not to register with SANRAL and pay for e-Tolls. If you don’t buy an e-Tag, you are not breaking the law and cannot be arrested for not owning an e-Tag."
- The AA of South Africa

http://www.aa.co.za/about/press-room/commentary/e-tolls-dangerous-precedents-have-been-set.html?Reference_ID=10075557
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Offline Kykdaar

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2013, 01:44:08 pm »
if you dont pay within 7 days, you are classified as an "alternate user", and the price doubles.

That's exactly it, there is no obligation to get an invoice to you within 7 days or anything like that, the onus is on you as a non etag holder to ensure payment is made. If you do not the price increases to nearly double. SANRAL are also under no obligation to get the bill to you in any sort of period of time however the debt would prescribe after 3 years as per any debt.

So that gives SANRAL 3 years to get onto you by whatever means it can legally utilise.
Using the roads is a tacit agreement to these terms ...

whatever happens its going to be interesting

This is a reverse onus and is BS in my view. A tactic used when painted into a corner.

 

Offline alanB

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2013, 02:24:46 pm »
If any lawyers here could help I would like to suggest the following:

1) A standardised "I dispute your invoice" letter which you can send back once you finally receive your bill.

2) Advice you to draw the whole thing out to max without incurring unnecessary legal risk.

3) Anything else they can think of to help resist this scheme.
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Offline Pistol

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2013, 02:49:43 pm »
If any lawyers here could help I would like to suggest the following:

1) A standardised "I dispute your invoice" letter which you can send back once you finally receive your bill.

2) Advice you to draw the whole thing out to max without incurring unnecessary legal risk.

3) Anything else they can think of to help resist this scheme.

Great idea - just a basic draft - give them the run-around with their own legal eagles :thumleft:
 

Offline KiLRoy

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2013, 05:11:31 pm »
Explain the process to follow, with all the contact detail, emails and adresses

Then help with a template or two to raise the questions in a legal fashion

Will be great help :thumleft:
 

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2013, 05:36:20 pm »
Explain the process to follow, with all the contact detail, emails and adresses

Then help with a template or two to raise the questions in a legal fashion

Will be great help :thumleft:

I just sent Wayne Duvenage the below email - will post here if I hear something :thumleft:

"Hi again Wayne!
I’m a member on various internet forums and I can tell you that many are still standing strong against e-tolls and intend not paying.

Can we expect any documentation soon from OUTA relating to suggested plan of action, cancellation of e-tag template, request for proof of transactions template, legal implications, summary of our rights etc.?
I know there is some stuff relating to these issues already, but I believe a “e-toll defiance pack” from OUTA would be excellent!

Cheers and thanks for all you have done for South Africa!"

 

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2013, 11:27:54 pm »
Explain the process to follow, with all the contact detail, emails and adresses

Then help with a template or two to raise the questions in a legal fashion

Will be great help :thumleft:

I just sent Wayne Duvenage the below email - will post here if I hear something :thumleft:

"Hi again Wayne!
I’m a member on various internet forums and I can tell you that many are still standing strong against e-tolls and intend not paying.

Can we expect any documentation soon from OUTA relating to suggested plan of action, cancellation of e-tag template, request for proof of transactions template, legal implications, summary of our rights etc.?
I know there is some stuff relating to these issues already, but I believe a “e-toll defiance pack” from OUTA would be excellent!

Cheers and thanks for all you have done for South Africa!"



OK, got a reply from Wayne.... below - one in four cars sounds like rejection of e-tolls

Good day XXXXXX

Thanks for your mail and contact.

We will be addressing and communicating the new defiance campaign strategy on line in a few days.  Taking a tad longer than we thought.  

In the meantime, we have exposed, by counting cars coming off at freeway off ramps (at the traffic lights), that only around a quarter of cars have eTags.  The defiance campaign is working and we need to communicate it out there.

Chat soon and watch this space.  John Clarke who is a consultant and joint spokesperson to lighten the load, will probably contact you shortly in this regard

Keep up the great work you are doing.  We need more of you around.

Wayne Duvenage
OUTA Chairperson

« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 11:54:38 pm by Bundu »
 

Offline KiLRoy

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2013, 07:05:23 am »
Nice one Bundu, keep us informed and assure Wayne of our support please :thumleft:
 

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2013, 08:32:32 am »
Nice one Bundu. Thx

 My own little "snap survey" at the linksfield bridge last week was below 5% visible tags
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Offline Tr0jan

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2013, 08:52:31 am »
For the first time in 3 years I've put on a small plate on my bike. Its a 6fiddy, fines were never really an issue to be honest as there is no mine shafts on the roads I travel.


What I have noticed, the camera's dont pick up the smaller custom number plate. The OCR is obviously not good enough to cater for different fonts or sizes, or their photo quality not reslient enough.

The fine for this is around R500 and if I get pulled over once a month, at least the money stays within the country!
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Offline Sláinte Mhaith

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2013, 09:00:54 am »
What I have noticed, the camera's dont pick up the smaller custom number plate. The OCR is obviously not good enough to cater for different fonts or sizes, or their photo quality not reslient enough.

Yet people still believe stories that the cameras are good enough to read your licence disc....   :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
 

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2013, 09:07:30 am »

The fine for this is around R500 and if I get pulled over once a month, at least the money stays within the country!
and you are supporting local commerce. :thumleft:

My plate is mounted a bit "flatter" than usual but so far no cop has moaned... in fact they are quite surprised when they pull me over to see that I do in fact have a plate! We usually end up talking about bikes... a lot of cops seem to have one or like bikes! :biggrin:
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 09:09:39 am by RobC »
 

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2013, 04:49:31 pm »
http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69655&A=DAM&S=IT%20in%20Government&O=E&E=43202

Gantries take toll on privacy

An online portal that allows untagged Gauteng freeway users to check their e-toll balances exposes them to privacy violations

An online portal developed by the SA National Roads Agency (Sanral) to allow unregistered road users to check outstanding e-toll fees allows would-be snoops to track motorists' movements with just a vehicle licence number in hand.

ITWeb has established that any vehicle using Gauteng's toll roads can be tracked in real-time by anyone with access to the Sanral Web site – regardless of whether they are registered.

This follows a previous investigation by ITWeb into the e-tolls Web site, which revealed a security flaw that could allow attackers to capture personal information such as identity numbers, car registration details, physical and e-mail addresses, as well as cellphone numbers.


Sanral says the online portal – available under the "Not registered and wish to pay for your e-toll costs?" – was created in order to give untagged highway users an easy way to pay e-tolls.

However, experts argue that the unrestricted nature of the service boils down to an infringement of citizens' constitutional right to privacy.


Industry professionals point out that – even if the majority of road users are unlikely to be victims of violations resulting from the open access to their outstanding e-toll fees – the unguarded nature of the portal does open up the door to stalkers, suspicious spouses and even mischief-makers.

Open access

The Sanral Web site was intended to provide the facility for anyone to pay for an unregistered vehicle's outstanding tolls. Given the licence number of a vehicle, any other user can monitor its e-toll balance. (The site, although intended to disclose only the amount owed by unregistered users, also reveals the outstanding balance of users with e-tags, ITWeb has confirmed.)

The amount is updated at the moment the driver passes a toll gantry, and since gantries are priced uniquely, depending on the length of each road segment, the incremental changes in the total balance can be correlated to deduce the specific gantries the driver has passed.

A trivial script can automatically retrieve the Web page at regular intervals, writing changes to a log and recording a vehicle's every move.

In addition, even though a visit to the said URL will prompt users to register or log in, a simple copy and paste of the same URL back into the browser will allow those without login credentials to use the service as well.

Privacy problem

Sanral has downplayed the probing potential of its unregistered users portal, saying: "Sanral is of the view that the current system provided on [the agency's] Web site, which allows users to access outstanding amounts owed for a seven-day period by entering their vehicle licence plate number, does not constitute a violation of privacy in terms of legislation relating to privacy and protection of data."

However, Novation Consulting director Elizabeth de Stadler says the flaw is "quite ridiculous", as it creates a privacy issue. The information Sanral's portal lays bare will be an infringement of the Protection of Personal Information (PPI) Act when it comes into effect, she notes, adding it also seems to be a contravention of the constitutional right to privacy.

On top of the privacy issue, says De Stadler, there is also a security issue, because information is not being kept reasonably secure. "It's incredibly easy to link a person's number plate to them… It's not rocket science."

There is no conceivable reason why people's movements should be publicly accessible, she adds. Only the registered owner of the vehicle should have access to their information, De Stadler notes.

SensePost CTO Dominic White says while at face value the portal merely reveals how much a motorist owes and not personal information – depending on how much can be garnered from this, it could be a breach of citizens' privacy rights.

Ideally, he says, the information should only be tied to and accessible to each individual motorist. "Ideally, you would want to be in control of your own information. There is potential for shenanigans in this."

White says mass data gathering is another possibility the portal opens up. "You could, for example, write a script for hundreds of thousands of number plates and run it. This could tell you how many vehicles Sanral knows about, or how many number plates they are tracking. It is a hypothesis, but it is possible."

Independent security consultant Paul Cammidge adds creating the script and obtaining a licence plate number so that someone can be tracked is not difficult. "From that perspective, I'd be quite worried."

White notes all vehicles' number plates – including those of police officials and politicians – are open to the public. While White says the usefulness of information any Internet user can glean from the portal is debatable, but data mining, bribery and stalking are some of the uses that could exist.

He says another possibility the portal may open up is users researching ways of cheating or bypassing the system. "If you want to probe [Sanral's] system this would be a useful implementation point. You could perhaps establish how the system reacts to a painted number plate, for example."

Tenuous trust

Swift Consulting CEO Liron Segev says "the whole thing boils down to trust". He notes motorists are already wary of Sanral because they do not trust the debt collection system, or its statements about what e-tolls are funding.

Segev says the fact that the system has access to live data begs the question of whether a public-facing portal should have access to unencrypted real-time information. "There's so much you can do with this."

The information could be used by syndicates to virtually track people's movements for burglary purposes, or for people to track cheating partners, says Segev. He adds once coupled with other data that can be gleaned through social engineering or unofficial databases, it could also lead to scams being perpetrated.

Segev explains the information is sufficiently legitimate to act as a hook for a 419 e-mail. He says the issue may not be deliberate on the part of Sanral, but the site has not been sufficiently thought through.

Cammidge says, while the site does not provide any other personal information, the number plate and movement information still constitutes too much data.
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Offline alanB

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2013, 07:19:18 am »
I'm surprised people are just accepting SANRAL's complete disregard for their privacy.

This issue alone was sufficient to defeat the scheme overseas.

But barely a whimper here.
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Offline Kykdaar

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Re: Not Registered and e-toll payments
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2013, 07:32:27 am »
I'm surprised people are just accepting SANRAL's complete disregard for their privacy.

This issue alone was sufficient to defeat the scheme overseas.

But barely a whimper here.

It will be Sanral themselves that will have to conform whithin the period laid down by the Protection of Personal Information (POPI) Act or they can be held accountable by the public in terms thereof.