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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2014, 03:22:52 pm »
There have been at least 4 protest rides, and several "static" ones at offramps , where were u ??



must of been bloody effective ones hey

They were quite ,
 sadly due to the spineless ,innactive , keyboard warrior attitude , from the majority of affected people , they werent as effective as they could have been , but we will keep trying , on behalf of all , especially as it is a totally innefective way of collecting the monies needed to build and maintain our roads , hey fukkkk some has to do it hey , even if the affore mentioned people enjoy slagging us off

Welcome to the Saffer syndrome ...... we all bitch an whine but when called to actually do something we have to wash our hair or something..

Not all of us
I am well aware of the "saffer syndrom" , and yes it is disgusting, but a reality , but i choose to at least try
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Offline Mr Zog

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2014, 03:47:11 pm »
I hear your opinion on this debate ICM, but here is my opinion;

Firstly its not law to get tagged, so I won't.
Secondly, Sanral MUST bill me in accordance with the law. Basically they have 32 days to do so, after the expiry of the 7 day period of grace.
Thirdly, I am hoping that the opposition to e-toll (OUTA, FF+, etc) will win their court case, and e-tolls will be binned.

I will pay, when Sanral complies with the Act, and bills me accordingly. AND PROVES that it was my vehicle at EACH and EVERY gantry they bill me for.

Simple.

I'm not breaking any laws, in fact I'm insisting that Sanral complies...  :pot:

absolutely right and well within your rights to do so.

where does this 32 day period come from and where does it state you are excused if not received, where is this formulated?

Edit: if you are referring to the below be well aware of the fact that if the letter does not get to you within 39 days, it does not mean you are excused. The act is also silent on a number of issues , I look forward to them being tested

In terms of regulation 6(5) of the e-Road regulations "If an alternate user does not pay the toll contemplated in terms of sub-regulation (4) within the time and at the place and subject to the conditions that the Agency may make known and determine, the Agency must within 32 days after the alternate user has used an e-road but after expiry of the grace period and unless the user has registered, send an invoice to the said user, to the last known address provided in terms of the National Road Traffic Act by such user, reflecting the amount of the toll payable and such invoice shall be paid by the said user on or before the date reflected on the invoice."


I think its quite clear ICM.

They have to bill me within 39 days, its in their act.

So IF I get an invoice, AND the date on the invoice is NOT within the 39 days stiplated in THEIR act, I will return said invoice to them, with a copy of the relevant act, and tell them to take me to court.

Maybe I will be the first one, and it can set a precedent? If not, the first person to test this act will set the precedent, and then they will have to make sure that they comply by sending out their invoices witin the specified time-frame.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist, but I believe in the Law...  :peepwall:

Oh, and according to my calculations, they only have 4 more days to issue my first invoice, I used the e-toll road on the day they opened  :ricky:

Young enough to know I can, old enough to know I shouldn't, stupid enough to do it anyway.
 

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2014, 07:01:00 am »
A lot of hot circulating here........

I am not getting an e-tag.
 I will use the "freeways".
If I receive an invoice and it does not comply legally' I will query it (registered post).
Any thing else I will disregard - they cannot prove you received anything in this country unless its registered mail.

Good luck to them getting money from me. Still to receive an invoice........
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2014, 07:09:27 am »
A lot of hot circulating here........

I am not getting an e-tag.
 I will use the "freeways".
If I receive an invoice and it does not comply legally' I will query it (registered post).
Any thing else I will disregard - they cannot prove you received anything in this country unless its registered mail.

Good luck to them getting money from me. Still to receive an invoice........

I ride normally and wait for anyone to contact me about paying.  We shall take it from there.  He heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :biggrin:
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2014, 08:16:31 am »
ICM, you need to realise we are exactly doing something by not doing anything. Its all we have to do, dont get etagged make it as difficult for them as possible to get money out of us.

Thats all. No protests, no mass rides, no letters, nothing. Just legal non compliance.

Everyone understands and agree with this approach. Why do you not seem to choose to understand this?

And.... Why get etagged if you dont intend to use the freeways? (I cant seem to get an answer for this. Something wrong?)

Seriously. Its not about burning and breaking things. Or about mass civil unrest. Its about legal non compliance. Simple as that - doing nothing will achieve a lot. Please try to understand this.
 

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2014, 08:27:39 am »
I hear your opinion on this debate ICM, but here is my opinion;

Firstly its not law to get tagged, so I won't.
Secondly, Sanral MUST bill me in accordance with the law. Basically they have 32 days to do so, after the expiry of the 7 day period of grace.
Thirdly, I am hoping that the opposition to e-toll (OUTA, FF+, etc) will win their court case, and e-tolls will be binned.

I will pay, when Sanral complies with the Act, and bills me accordingly. AND PROVES that it was my vehicle at EACH and EVERY gantry they bill me for.

Simple.

I'm not breaking any laws, in fact I'm insisting that Sanral complies...  :pot:

absolutely right and well within your rights to do so.

where does this 32 day period come from and where does it state you are excused if not received, where is this formulated?

Edit: if you are referring to the below be well aware of the fact that if the letter does not get to you within 39 days, it does not mean you are excused. The act is also silent on a number of issues , I look forward to them being tested

In terms of regulation 6(5) of the e-Road regulations "If an alternate user does not pay the toll contemplated in terms of sub-regulation (4) within the time and at the place and subject to the conditions that the Agency may make known and determine, the Agency must within 32 days after the alternate user has used an e-road but after expiry of the grace period and unless the user has registered, send an invoice to the said user, to the last known address provided in terms of the National Road Traffic Act by such user, reflecting the amount of the toll payable and such invoice shall be paid by the said user on or before the date reflected on the invoice."


I think its quite clear ICM.

They have to bill me within 39 days, its in their act.

So IF I get an invoice, AND the date on the invoice is NOT within the 39 days stiplated in THEIR act, I will return said invoice to them, with a copy of the relevant act, and tell them to take me to court.

Maybe I will be the first one, and it can set a precedent? If not, the first person to test this act will set the precedent, and then they will have to make sure that they comply by sending out their invoices witin the specified time-frame.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist, but I believe in the Law...  :peepwall:

Oh, and according to my calculations, they only have 4 more days to issue my first invoice, I used the e-toll road on the day they opened  :ricky:



No its not clear ....the act merely says they have to invoice you within that period of time not the fact that you must receive the invoice. I suspect even failing to actually receive the invoice the debt will only prescribe in due course (3 years) The fact that the post office has a go slow or dumps the mail does not excuse you of the debt. guys, don't rely on this 39 day period as a way to get out of the debt. Please don't.

another lil issue you okes must not forget is that it is clearly marked that you must pay tolls, u cannot claim ignorance of this down the line. So if you use the road you know there is an obligation pay.

in closing on this, SANRAL is under no obligation to ensure you receive the invoice within 39 days ...merely the fact that they must issue an invoice within the period...if you only get it a year down the line you will be liable. simple

Edit: Meant to add, in terms of section 6(6) if a user fails to pay SANRAL can follow criminal and civil processes to get payment. Now this has obviously yet to be tested but if SANRAL are sucesful in this you will be liable for the initial payment and a hefty chunk of legal fees .......

Now OUTA have run out of funds taking this to the courts and they been sponsored by society at large.....can you as an individual afford this if you lose...and even if you win its going to cost you a lot...

Just on the photogrpahs mentioned in a previous post, an invoice does NOT have to have a photograph of every gantry passed..... you are of course entitled to go to a SANRAL office an request all of this....from what I can make it this does NOT delay the process of payment.

look, there is a lot of stuff that has yet to be tested and ironed out ...... but thus far SANRAL have had the upper hand, I suspect this is going to be maintained due to pressure from the govrnement etc.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 08:48:07 am by IceCreamMan »
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2014, 08:29:46 am »
ICM, you need to realise we are exactly doing something by not doing anything. Its all we have to do, dont get etagged make it as difficult for them as possible to get money out of us.

Thats all. No protests, no mass rides, no letters, nothing. Just legal non compliance.

Everyone understands and agree with this approach. Why do you not seem to choose to understand this?

And.... Why get etagged if you dont intend to use the freeways? (I cant seem to get an answer for this. Something wrong?)

Seriously. Its not about burning and breaking things. Or about mass civil unrest. Its about legal non compliance. Simple as that - doing nothing will achieve a lot. Please try to understand this.

doing nothing is not very revolutionary....

I am beginning to debate with myself whether to opt out of the etag thing to be honest...... expediency was the reason to get one I guess.

I think history will show that passive resistance in Africa does not work....the majority will silently just go with the flow which is dictated to by the leaders....
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2014, 08:32:12 am »
I think it comes down to your overall objective.

Some people's objective seems to be just to be affected as little as possible by this mess - so they take the path of least resistance/cost and their actions will follow that.  

Others want to try and resist/opposed what they feel is an unjust new form of tax - for them they want to try and cause as much difficulty as they can for the authorities who are trying to impose that system.

If you can understand what your objectives are, then its easy to decide what you should do.


 
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2014, 09:08:10 am »
ICM is right that SANRAL has the upper hand and you will pay if you use the highways. You can bitch and moan and jump up and down but you will pay. The government always get their dues.

i haven't registered and don't use the highways. if i don't use the highways they don't get money. if they don't get money they have to change their funding model. the extra effort is worth it if it brings about change. using the highways and claiming passive resistance is illogical because you will pay.
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2014, 09:21:43 am »
using the highways and claiming passive resistance is illogical because you will pay.

I dont agree.

Again I go back to my objective point I made above.

It doesnt matter whether you pay or not, only that you caused as much difficulty for the authorities.  By paying late, not simply registering, not not getting an etag, insisting on a posted invoice, insisting on proof, delaying payment, or simply refusing to pay etc etc are all valid ways of resisting the system.  If everyone does what they can, it all adds up.

The objective isnt to "get away with not paying" - its to resist.

So far the government has never had the people of the country start resist just coughhing up money on demand, to fund its continued stupidity and fraud.  Its an historic and important point that is being made so in my opinion its very worthwhile.
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Offline Sylvester

Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2014, 09:27:03 am »
Everyone's situation is different and therefore the "Resistance" strategy can also not be a one size fits all.

Some people use the highways only occasionally, so their e-toll bill will be small change and it would make sense for this crowd to not register and play the delay game and force the maximum administrative burden on SANRAL to collect the least amount of revenue after a couple of months.

Some guys (like me) use the highways a lot and can accumulate a couple of thousand rands a month on their e-toll bill.  If this crowd don't register they will have to pay a huge amount to SANRAL for the same administrative burden.  SANRAL will then actually score, because for the price of a few registered letters, they get paid over e.g. R12000 after six months instead of R2700 if that person was tagged. (I have taken my personal situation in this example)

This is why I decided to get tagged instead and rather contribute to OUTAs future court cases with the money I save.  In the big picture, this makes more sense to me.

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2014, 09:42:07 am »
Can someone tell me, does the R450 cap for tagged users only apply to cars ? What about bikes that already have a lower
per km cost, is it also R450 ?
 

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2014, 09:46:50 am »
Everyone's situation is different and therefore the "Resistance" strategy can also not be a one size fits all.

Some people use the highways only occasionally, so their e-toll bill will be small change and it would make sense for this crowd to not register and play the delay game and force the maximum administrative burden on SANRAL to collect the least amount of revenue after a couple of months.

Some guys (like me) use the highways a lot and can accumulate a couple of thousand rands a month on their e-toll bill.  If this crowd don't register they will have to pay a huge amount to SANRAL for the same administrative burden.  SANRAL will then actually score, because for the price of a few registered letters, they get paid over e.g. R12000 after six months instead of R2700 if that person was tagged. (I have taken my personal situation in this example)

This is why I decided to get tagged instead and rather contribute to OUTAs future court cases with the money I save.  In the big picture, this makes more sense to me.



I completely understand your argument and commend you for donating to OUTA.  I don't use the highways for commuting and will try to not use them at all if I can help.  For the couple of times that I need to, I will make SANRAL work for their money.
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2014, 10:10:02 am »
Can someone tell me, does the R450 cap for tagged users only apply to cars ? What about bikes that already have a lower
per km cost, is it also R450 ?
Nevermind, I looked it up. its R250 for class A1 vehicles.

 

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2014, 10:23:27 am »
Everyone's situation is different and therefore the "Resistance" strategy can also not be a one size fits all.

Some people use the highways only occasionally, so their e-toll bill will be small change and it would make sense for this crowd to not register and play the delay game and force the maximum administrative burden on SANRAL to collect the least amount of revenue after a couple of months.

Some guys (like me) use the highways a lot and can accumulate a couple of thousand rands a month on their e-toll bill.  If this crowd don't register they will have to pay a huge amount to SANRAL for the same administrative burden.  SANRAL will then actually score, because for the price of a few registered letters, they get paid over e.g. R12000 after six months instead of R2700 if that person was tagged. (I have taken my personal situation in this example)

This is why I decided to get tagged instead and rather contribute to OUTAs future court cases with the money I save.  In the big picture, this makes more sense to me.



I am with you on this
 

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2014, 10:31:20 am »
ICM, you need to realise we are exactly doing something by not doing anything. Its all we have to do, dont get etagged make it as difficult for them as possible to get money out of us.

Thats all. No protests, no mass rides, no letters, nothing. Just legal non compliance.

Everyone understands and agree with this approach. Why do you not seem to choose to understand this?

And.... Why get etagged if you dont intend to use the freeways? (I cant seem to get an answer for this. Something wrong?)

Seriously. Its not about burning and breaking things. Or about mass civil unrest. Its about legal non compliance. Simple as that - doing nothing will achieve a lot. Please try to understand this.

doing nothing is not very revolutionary....

I am beginning to debate with myself whether to opt out of the etag thing to be honest...... expediency was the reason to get one I guess.

I think history will show that passive resistance in Africa does not work....the majority will silently just go with the flow which is dictated to by the leaders....

question is what we want out of it.  We dont want a revolution - we want to pay for things like in this case road improvements in fair, efficient and non corrupt ways.  By firstly utilizing the fiscal, if not (reluctantly) the fuel levy - but first prize, less corruption will lead to more fiscal
 

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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2014, 10:41:59 am »
Please remember people , you have alread paid , and continually pay for the upkeep and building of roads
The sad fact that so many continue to capitulate willingly( and without any resistance )  , and support corrupt inneficeint systems , based on enriching the few , at the expense of many , will bring about the misery of the many

Its redicoulous , and tantamount to suicide

But ja .......  Sad
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2014, 10:50:53 am »
ICM, you need to realise we are exactly doing something by not doing anything. Its all we have to do, dont get etagged make it as difficult for them as possible to get money out of us.

Thats all. No protests, no mass rides, no letters, nothing. Just legal non compliance.

Everyone understands and agree with this approach. Why do you not seem to choose to understand this?

And.... Why get etagged if you dont intend to use the freeways? (I cant seem to get an answer for this. Something wrong?)

Seriously. Its not about burning and breaking things. Or about mass civil unrest. Its about legal non compliance. Simple as that - doing nothing will achieve a lot. Please try to understand this.

doing nothing is not very revolutionary....

I am beginning to debate with myself whether to opt out of the etag thing to be honest...... expediency was the reason to get one I guess.

I think history will show that passive resistance in Africa does not work....the majority will silently just go with the flow which is dictated to by the leaders....

question is what we want out of it.  We dont want a revolution - we want to pay for things like in this case road improvements in fair, efficient and non corrupt ways.  By firstly utilizing the fiscal, if not (reluctantly) the fuel levy - but first prize, less corruption will lead to more fiscal

we agree, but then vote the corrupt useless bunch out of power, this is after all a democracy and one you often pronounce as such. So lets vote em out ...simple
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Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2014, 11:48:38 am »
ICM, you need to realise we are exactly doing something by not doing anything. Its all we have to do, dont get etagged make it as difficult for them as possible to get money out of us.

Thats all. No protests, no mass rides, no letters, nothing. Just legal non compliance.

Everyone understands and agree with this approach. Why do you not seem to choose to understand this?

And.... Why get etagged if you dont intend to use the freeways? (I cant seem to get an answer for this. Something wrong?)

Seriously. Its not about burning and breaking things. Or about mass civil unrest. Its about legal non compliance. Simple as that - doing nothing will achieve a lot. Please try to understand this.

doing nothing is not very revolutionary....

I am beginning to debate with myself whether to opt out of the etag thing to be honest...... expediency was the reason to get one I guess.

I think history will show that passive resistance in Africa does not work....the majority will silently just go with the flow which is dictated to by the leaders....

question is what we want out of it.  We dont want a revolution - we want to pay for things like in this case road improvements in fair, efficient and non corrupt ways.  By firstly utilizing the fiscal, if not (reluctantly) the fuel levy - but first prize, less corruption will lead to more fiscal

we agree, but then vote the corrupt useless bunch out of power, this is after all a democracy and one you often pronounce as such. So lets vote em out ...simple

Ok, now we all know this is not going to happen in the short term.  Its something we need to aspire too, but its a fight on another front.  In the absence of this option, the only alternative is to legally make the system not workable.  This does not mean we are not going to pay for the improvements.  Obviously we must pay, but there are better, much for efficient ways like the fuel levy to use as payment vehicle.  Personally I don't like building these kind of costs into the fuel levy, because it has a devastating long term effect on inflation.  But in this case the effect will be less than charging the transport industry for etolls at a 60% inflated price to cater for tolling, billing and admin.  So its the lessor evil I suppose.
 

Offline Sylvester

Re: e-toll billing: So what are you going to do?
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2014, 01:12:18 pm »

Obviously we must pay, but there are better, much for efficient ways like the fuel levy to use as payment vehicle.  Personally I don't like building these kind of costs into the fuel levy, because it has a devastating long term effect on inflation.  But in this case the effect will be less than charging the transport industry for etolls at a 60% inflated price to cater for tolling, billing and admin.  So its the lessor evil I suppose.

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