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Offline Ama ride ride

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Motorcycle accidents
« on: February 01, 2008, 07:48:53 am »
It seem that with nearly 90% of the accidents reported on the WD froum its the other party's fault. Cage drivers are beginning to pi$$ me off.

I have a Question for the legal eagles here.
If I take a gun and shoot 5 shots randomly in the air and one bullet strike a person and kills him/her. I will get big trouble even if I say "sorry but I did not see him/her"

Now why do car drivers get away in courts when they say the same sorry words?

I already lost a good friend because of a stupid half blind old cressida driver. Seemed he walked scott free as his defence was..."sorry did not see him"

Are bikers fair game?

 >:( >:( >:( >:(


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Offline Kykdaar

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2008, 08:03:24 am »

I already lost a good friend because of a stupid half blind old cressida driver. Seemed he walked scott free as his defence was..."sorry did not see him"

Are bikers fair game?

 >:( >:( >:( >:(

No, unfortunately that is the reallity that we face - they do not see us.

Therefore do not assume that they see you or, even if they do, that they have the mental capacity to process and act on that information in a responsible manner - ride knowing that you are invisible to them.

Be doublly cautious if there are mercedes, toyota or volvo around.
 

Offline Ama ride ride

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2008, 08:10:43 am »

I already lost a good friend because of a stupid half blind old cressida driver. Seemed he walked scott free as his defence was..."sorry did not see him"

Are bikers fair game?

 >:( >:( >:( >:(

No, unfortunately that is the reallity that we face - they do not see us.

Therefore do not assume that they see you or, even if they do, that they have the mental capacity to process and act on that information in a responsible manner - ride knowing that you are invisible to them.

Be doublly cautious if there are mercedes, toyota or volvo around.

Point made but my question remains. Why do the courts accept (it seem so to me) it? Some years ago a man was shot while watching a game at Ellispark. The bullet was fired from a gun a few blocks away. The shooter also did not see the man and he (shooter) got lot of kark from the courts.

Cage drivers however seem not to get the same.

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Gothica

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 09:05:19 am »
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No, unfortunately that is the reallity that we face - they do not see us.

Symptoms manifest as: 'they do not see us'

Diagnosis: Ignorance (combined with a lack of respect and biker-envy which transforms into bad attitude)

Seriously though, I honestly think ignorance on behalf of the cage drivers is the main cause for them not seeing us and not 'keeping an eye out for us' in the first place.

I've been there .. stuck in the cage, looking into the rear-view mirror without any effort to really see what's behind me, changing lanes with my indicator on (but all in one motion, barely enough time to really warn or caution anybody - even other cars for that matter - of my planned actions) ..

Since joining the forum and viewing the situation from your perspective as bikers I've made a consious paradigm shift in the way I 'treat' bikers on the roads. There is no excuse really, it just boils down to respect at the end of the day.

My 2c anyway ..
 

Offline Vonkprop

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 09:11:41 am »
I you ride a bike you just need to accept that we are easy game when out on the roads.
We have to take every precaution possible to avoid becoming another statistic
This means ATTGATT,visibility , proper training , defensive riding,growing eyes on the back of your helmet.....ANYTHING & EVERYTHING  possible to
stay alive.
My Zim $ 50 000 worth !
You're never lost as long as you still have gas !
 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 09:26:30 am »
We are vulnerable and can be hurt plenty...

:(

Unfortunately the perception out there is that bikers are riding too irresponsible/fast/whatever.

Every single non biking person I know says the same thing when they hear about  a motorcycle accident: The biker was going too fast.

As stupid as that is to say, I can see sometimes why the perception is there.
I go really slow when lane splitting, but I see way too many guys going way too fast (I let them through regardless).

I'm going off on a tangent now, but I think its the perception - it seems if you get into k@k on a bike you are 'guilty until proven innocent'...

That's faarked up, but the unfortunate truth...


>:( >:(
02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 09:29:10 am »
I've been there .. stuck in the cage, looking into the rear-view mirror without any effort to really see what's behind me, changing lanes with my indicator on (but all in one motion, barely enough time to really warn or caution anybody - even other cars for that matter - of my planned actions) ..

That happens to me all the time (when I'm on the bike) - mostly (because I'm going slow enough) I just break and its fine.
The issue is when you are aiming for the hole the cage just came from and he sees you halfway and then jerk the car back towards the spot where you are aiming for - two wrongs don't make a right...

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Mark Hardy

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 09:37:47 am »
This week alone I have seen 2 accidents on the N1 into Cape Town, the second one this morning. I recognise the bike because we see one another every morning and both the riders take it easy while lane spiltting. Cage drivers just don't think when they change lane, they see a gap and go for it. I am guilty of what some consider traveling to quickly through the traffic, but I think going too slow allows the driver to think he has time to lane change when actually he does'nt.

just my confused 2c
 

Offline 1X

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2008, 09:38:11 am »
Unfortunately it is illegal to shoot a fire arm in a built up area for no reason.

But it is not illegal for a cage driver to say "sorry did not see you....."

So if a cager takes you out, you will have to prove that the driver was driving in a " Roekelsose nalatige" way??? And that is were the problem comes in I think.

This is the main reason why I don't commute the cagers are mad >:D >:D But in the same way I have seen mostly speed bikes and some DS riders that are totally mad on the road. Some times its really difficult to see a speed bike filtering the traffic at one more of a speed.

My 2c
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 09:40:14 am by 1X »
THE LIVER IS EVIL AND MUST BE PUNISHED!!!!

"Nou ja, ek beskou vegetariers as plantmoordenaars. Erger as vleiseters, want hulle pik op die mees weerlose wesens, wat nie eens kan skree of weghol nie."prof. Erik Holm, bekende entomoloog
 

Gothica

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2008, 09:38:59 am »
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Every single non biking person I know says the same thing when they hear about  a motorcycle accident: The biker was going too fast.

Dis presies my punt W.

This prejudice and preconceived label that gets hung around bikers' necks .. regardless. I honestly think the cage drivers need to wake up and smell the coffee. And it is exactly this kind of mentality that gets in the way of people wanting to ride bikes, such as yours truly (especially if ur a female) .. want jy gaan doodgaan op 'n motorfiets.

Whatever.  ::)
 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2008, 09:50:34 am »
I agree - and Mark - when I say too fast I also imply recklessly.
The other morning you passed me (just before that accident with that KLR) I again saw how high you sit on that Katoom.

So I'm not saying you are too fast, even if I have to pull over to let you pass. You never look reckless in traffic.
Out in the sticks might be a different story...

:D ;D
02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Grondpad

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2008, 09:50:59 am »
I would love to commute to town,  but o jirre it's bad in CPT.   >:(

BTW - Gothica,  love ur Avatar!  8)
 

Offline Ama ride ride

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2008, 09:59:52 am »
I would love to commute to town,  but o jirre it's bad in CPT.   >:(

Come and visit........ :o

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Offline Eisbein

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 10:01:12 am »
I would love to commute to town,  but o jirre it's bad in CPT.   >:(

Come and visit........ :o



+100

I'm also glad I don't have to do the N2 in Capetown.
Also not as bad as what The Big Smoke can be, but I did it once and got 5 years older in 20 minutes...

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Dirt Dog

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2008, 10:14:56 am »
While sitting on the highway in load shedding traffic in my cage I have witnessed a number of bikers splitting at really high speed. My balls pull up behind my ears when I see it. I always split at no more than 60k's/h and move over when someone faster is coming up behind me. If I see a gap in the traffic in either lane to the side of me I slack off because some idiot is going to take the gap guaranteed, even if it means he is only going to pull back into the same lane 1k further down the road.

Even in my cage I check for bikers behind me because I expect them to be there. Cagers don't use their mirrors enough. My 2c :-\
Tarred roads rule
 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2008, 10:17:59 am »
D-Dog - everything you say above are wise words and very true.

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline JonW

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2008, 10:56:38 am »

I have a Question for the legal eagles here.
If I take a gun and shoot 5 shots randomly in the air and one bullet strike a person and kills him/her. I will get big trouble even if I say "sorry but I did not see him/her"

Now why do car drivers get away in courts when they say the same sorry words?






Very basically, the issue is that of negligence.

One of the tests for determining negligence is: whether a reasonable man in that situation would foresee the chances of harm occuring to another, and did he take steps to guard against that harm occuring.

Quite clearly the oke who shoots bullets in the air foresees the chances of the bullets injuring someone and he took no steps to guard against this happening. This is very easy to prove in court.

In the case of a car that changes lanes/pulls out from a stop street and knocks over a bike, it is not that easy.

Here it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that that the driver was negligent. The driver of the car just has to give evidence that before changing lanes he checked his rearview mirror, saw it was clear and went.

He foresaw the chances of harm occuring and then took steps to guard against that harm by looking in his rearview mirror. So he can argue that he was not negligent as he took the steps a reasonable driver is expected to take and still did not see the biker coming up alongside him as he changed lanes etc.



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Naartjie

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2008, 11:11:55 am »
While sitting on the highway in load shedding traffic in my cage I have witnessed a number of bikers splitting at really high speed. My balls pull up behind my ears when I see it. I always split at no more than 60k's/h and move over when someone faster is coming up behind me. If I see a gap in the traffic in either lane to the side of me I slack off because some idiot is going to take the gap guaranteed, even if it means he is only going to pull back into the same lane 1k further down the road.

Even in my cage I check for bikers behind me because I expect them to be there. Cagers don't use their mirrors enough. My 2c :-\

+1

Another reason I lane split is to avoid shite lying in the road.

Last year in March I hit a brick lying in the middle of the middle lane near Grayston Ave in Sandton while riding in the lane behind a mini bus. Saw the brick to late, and my front rim was destroyed. Nearly saw my gat.....

I either lane split or ride on the same line as the car in front of me's wheels.
 

Offline Eisbein

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2008, 11:19:00 am »

Another reason I lane split is to avoid shite lying in the road.


I had a moerse skrik the other day - N1 crossing man jumped out of nowhere into the space where I lane split. 4 cars ahead of me.

So lucky I could stop in time and there we were standing in the lane with cars passing eyeballing each other.
Cold shivers afterwards - what if it was one car ahead of me instead of 4 ?

Sorry for the 9/11

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline LuckyStriker

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Re: Motorcycle accidents
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2008, 11:27:01 am »
Sorry to be all negative like, but I believe we are responsible for our own safety
It has been shown time and time again that cagers don't see us. We are small and we are fast and we look nothing like a car.

If you believe that everyone should be on the lookout for you...then you will probably get knocked down and be partly responsible for your own injuries.
C'mon guys, we are all intelligent grownups and we have all driven cars before. Anticipate how motorists will drive and predict their actions with a dose of pessimism. If you can't read traffic then you should seriously consider avoiding it because the problem just might lie with you.