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Author Topic: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)  (Read 3921 times)

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Offline Lord Knormoer

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2014, 07:51:09 am »
To initiate turning, you actually turn the bars away from the turn's direction. This makes the motorcycle "fall" into the corner, and then you ease off the turning.
Yet you still control the turn through the front wheel, even if it is by making the fork steer by shifting body weight.

Counter steering alters the direction you are travelling immediately. Body movement takes longer to alter the direction. In a tight spot, when riding a pass and some AH comes around a blind corner on your side, you better know how to counter steer.

What they said.

And on another point, it has very little to do with gyroscopic forces. The exact same principal applies to any single track vehicle that leans in turns.    If you remove both your wheels, attach skis and ski down a hill you'll still have to counter steer to turn.  There's simply no other way to turn.

All 'body steering' does is counter steer the bars for you. Just a lot slower, with far less precision.


Thank you  :thumleft: :deal:

Can you explain why it transitions from following the front wheel at slower speed to the need to counter steer at a certain speed.

My theory is that the momentum of the bike starts pushing the front wheel instead of following it - but it sounds like you know more.

In my mind it's simple, the bike will always follow the front wheel but at a certain speed it will just fall over if no training wheels are fitted.
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2014, 07:58:28 am »
A motorcycle can only turn while leaning into the turn. If you try turning in a vertical position, the bike will simply topple away from the turn.

If you want to turn right, you have to momentarily push the handlebars to the left, inducing a righthand lean, before the handlebars go back to neutral.

Neutral, while in a turn, only means that the front wheel is following a natural curve suitable to the required arc to be followed through a specific corner.

In a vertical, straight-line situation, neutral steering will mean dead ahead.
 

Offline Draadwerk

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2014, 08:09:58 am »
If your powersteering fluid is topped up, then you don't use countersteering. When the fluid level is low however, the opposite applies.

Check your power steering fluid regularly. That is the secret 😄
 

Offline alanB

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2014, 08:11:30 am »

In my mind it's simple, the bike will always follow the front wheel but at a certain speed it will just fall over if no training wheels are fitted.

 :biggrin:

As you may know most bikes front geometry is inherently stable in that if you jump off at high speed the bike will roll along quite a long way on its own in a straight line, any wobble will self cancel.

My theory on why its necessary to counter steer is that due to the fork geometry, when you tun the bars towards the left, the contact patch of the front tyre moves off centre, towards the left.  At slow speed the bike will follow the front wheel in that direction, but at some point it stops doing that.

I think it because when you turn the bars to the left, the front wheel is no longer pointing straight ahead and it thus offers resistance to forward motion of the bike and because the contact patch has moved off to the left and that is offering resistance to forward motion, the momentum of the bike pushes the bike over towards the right.  So you need a certain degree of momentum in comparison to the slight resistance offered to forward motion when you turn the front wheel for counter steering to become necessary.

But maybe someone who know can tell us how it really works?  :biggrin:




« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 08:15:33 am by alanB »
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Offline GEE-SH

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2014, 08:17:26 am »
Nee moer ek gaan nou hierdie thread ignore!!! gesien in lig van party posts is dit duidelik dat party ouens either nie kan lees nie, of het geen common sense nie, of het nog nooit in hulle n bike gery nie. I'm out of here!!!
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Offline lecap

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2014, 08:20:17 am »
How weight shift steering works:
Warning!
You need a basic understanding of forces and momentum to read on.

You ride straight. hands off.
You shift your bum to the right.
This means you shift your weight around the contact point with the ground in a clockwise direction. This will as a reaction tip the bike a bit in a counter clockwise direction (the sum of both momentums must be zero).
The slight anti - clockwise tip of the bike will cause the steering to "follow". It will slightly turn left.
This moves the centre of gravity of you and the bike to the right of the contact point.
You start leaning right.
The steering follows and turns to the right.
You turn to the right.

Now try to do exactly the same but hold the bars dead straight.
You will notice that you can move your weight from side to side whilst tilting the bike the other way and the bike will still go straight.

Lessons learned:
You can initiate a turn by shifting weight but the counter steer at the end lets the bike turn.
Direct counter steer is quicker in initiating the turn since the weight shift thing takes more time.
Don't hold on to the bars.

Re the wheelie:
If you turn your steering whilst the front is up in the air you again will have the rest of the bike turning the other way. Again the sum of momentums applied must be zero. The bike tilts much less than the steering as the rest is slightly heavier than your front end though.
Means you can to some degree steer the bike by turning your airborne front end.

The same applies to controlling the nose up or down attitude of an airborne bike:
If you wind it once airborne the accelerating rear wheel will cause the bike to rotate its front up.
If you snap the throttle shut or stomp onto the rear brake once airborne the bikes nose will rotate down.

Steering whilst airborne:
Turning the bars right will turn the bikes back left and vice versa.
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Offline Marc D

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Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2014, 08:22:39 am »
Is jy nog daar GEE-SH ? Ek het n ander verklaring oor hoe dit eintlik werk.
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Offline lecap

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2014, 08:26:15 am »
BTW you always need to do the counter steer thing no matter how slow or fast you go else your bike won't turn. It's just very slight or you do it out of intuition and not consciously.
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Offline Matewis

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2014, 08:31:12 am »
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Offline jaybiker

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2014, 08:32:33 am »
If your powersteering fluid is topped up, then you don't use countersteering. When the fluid level is low however, the opposite applies.

Check your power steering fluid regularly. That is the secret 😄


Two pieces of deep wisdom stand out from all the rest.
One is the quote above.
The second comes from alanB who points out that you can check your straight line stability by jumping off the bike at high speed.
Try it yourself and see! :3some:
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Offline BikerJan

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2014, 08:33:31 am »
The only reason a bike turns is as a result of diminishing radius of the tires, that is why the bike has to lean for it to turn. The quickest way to get the bike to lean into a corner is to use counter steer. You can shift your weight only, if you wish, and hope the bike will lean in time for the required turn.

 

Offline TheBear

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2014, 08:33:37 am »
How I understand it.

If I drive my Ford Plaasbakkie down the road and I turn the steering wheel to the right, the body rolls to the left.  Exactly the same happens on a bike, however a bike, different to the bakkie, have its suspension and wheels connected to the bike in such a manner that the wheels lean with the body and once that happens, left you go.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 08:46:23 am by AMZ »
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Offline alanB

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2014, 08:48:06 am »
Quote
Re the wheelie:
If you turn your steering whilst the front is up in the air you again will have the rest of the bike turning the other way. Again the sum of momentums applied must be zero. The bike tilts much less than the steering as the rest is slightly heavier than your front end though.
Means you can to some degree steer the bike by turning your airborne front end.

The same applies to controlling the nose up or down attitude of an airborne bike:
If you wind it once airborne the accelerating rear wheel will cause the bike to rotate its front up.
If you snap the throttle shut or stomp onto the rear brake once airborne the bikes nose will rotate down.

Steering whilst airborne:
Turning the bars right will turn the bikes back left and vice versa.

Ja I agree.

The point I was trying to make is that if gyroscopic forces where responsible for making the bike lean, they would work when the wheel was in the air in the same way as if the wheel was on the ground.   The fact that I dont feel any automatic opposite lean if I waggle my bars while jumping tells me gyroscopic forces dont play a major part in this story.

That was all I was trying to get at.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 08:56:40 am by alanB »
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Offline alanB

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2014, 08:53:19 am »
Quote
BTW you always need to do the counter steer thing no matter how slow or fast you go else your bike won't turn. It's just very slight or you do it out of intuition and not consciously.

Surely this is not correct.  You can verify this very simply.

Go into the garage, turn the bikes handle bars and push it gently while keeping the bike vertical.  Did it go straight or did it turn?

No counter steering or leaning involved.

A bike will follow the front wheel at slow speeds - I think we all know that.  But after a point that doesnt work any more - we also all know that.

The interesting thing is trying to understand why. :thumleft:
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Offline Dux

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2014, 08:54:18 am »

In my mind it's simple, the bike will always follow the front wheel but at a certain speed it will just fall over if no training wheels are fitted.

 :biggrin:

As you may know most bikes front geometry is inherently stable in that if you jump off at high speed the bike will roll along quite a long way on its own in a straight line, any wobble will self cancel.

My theory on why its necessary to counter steer is that due to the fork geometry, when you tun the bars towards the left, the contact patch of the front tyre moves off centre, towards the left.  At slow speed the bike will follow the front wheel in that direction, but at some point it stops doing that.

I think it because when you turn the bars to the left, the front wheel is no longer pointing straight ahead and it thus offers resistance to forward motion of the bike and because the contact patch has moved off to the left and that is offering resistance to forward motion, the momentum of the bike pushes the bike over towards the right.  So you need a certain degree of momentum in comparison to the slight resistance offered to forward motion when you turn the front wheel for counter steering to become necessary.

But maybe someone who know can tell us how it really works?  :biggrin:



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Offline Brink

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Re: Re: Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2014, 09:20:17 am »
I see the debate is getting along nicely  :biggrin: :thumleft:

Two other questions:

For those of you that can wheelie well, when you are cruising along with the front wheel lofted, does turning the handle bars make you lean over via gyroscopic forces?  Do you have to be very careful of that to not fall over while you are wheelieing?

Alternatively for those that race MX when flying through the air, if you turn the bars does it make the bike lean over?  I used to race a long time ago and have to say I never worried about turning the bars in the air (ie whether it would make me lean over on landing) but it was admittedly a long time ago.  But if gyroscopic forces really did cause the bike to lean over it should feel just like you were riding on the ground - ie turn the bars and the bike leans over automatically - I cant remember this happening?

All I'm trying to establish is whether gyroscopic forces really make your bike lean over when counter steering - I submit gyroscopic forces dont play a major part in that - I'm not arguing against counter steering BTW, for those that think I am.

If you look at the X fighters you will see that gyroscopic forces are in play in the air all the time.

Straight jumps you can correct with braking either front or back wheels to position the nose of the bike.
Also by opening the throttle to spin the rear wheel.

With them doing a "whip" you will see how it is induced by turning the handlebars combined with body position and kicking on the footless.

Surely to us mere mortals and riding plodders it looks like a dark art but the scientists will be able to explain all the factors in clear and conscice formulas based on proven and tested science.
(I will still not understand what they are saying though as I do not speak Geek)
😂😨😎
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Offline lecap

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2014, 09:22:57 am »
Quote
BTW you always need to do the counter steer thing no matter how slow or fast you go else your bike won't turn. It's just very slight or you do it out of intuition and not consciously.

Surely this is not correct.  You can verify this very simply.

Go into the garage, turn the bikes handle bars and push it gently while keeping the bike vertical.  Did it go straight or did it turn?

No counter steering or leaning involved.

A bike will follow the front wheel at slow speeds - I think we all know that.  But after a point that doesnt work any more - we also all know that.

The interesting thing is trying to understand why. :thumleft:

Sorry dude this is like riding with training wheels.

I am talking RIDING a bike not pushing it around.
As soon as your feet or training wheels are not touching the ground only counter steering first will allow you to corner.
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Offline lecap

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2014, 09:29:18 am »
...
If you look at the X fighters you will see that gyroscopic forces are in play in the air all the time.
...

"gyroscopic forces" over complicates the matter unnecessarily.

It's Newton's first law and the conservation of momentum. :cheers:
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Offline alanB

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2014, 09:49:00 am »

In my mind it's simple, the bike will always follow the front wheel but at a certain speed it will just fall over if no training wheels are fitted.

 :biggrin:

As you may know most bikes front geometry is inherently stable in that if you jump off at high speed the bike will roll along quite a long way on its own in a straight line, any wobble will self cancel.

My theory on why its necessary to counter steer is that due to the fork geometry, when you tun the bars towards the left, the contact patch of the front tyre moves off centre, towards the left.  At slow speed the bike will follow the front wheel in that direction, but at some point it stops doing that.

I think it because when you turn the bars to the left, the front wheel is no longer pointing straight ahead and it thus offers resistance to forward motion of the bike and because the contact patch has moved off to the left and that is offering resistance to forward motion, the momentum of the bike pushes the bike over towards the right.  So you need a certain degree of momentum in comparison to the slight resistance offered to forward motion when you turn the front wheel for counter steering to become necessary.

But maybe someone who know can tell us how it really works?  :biggrin:



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Ja played extensively with those in 2nd year.  Its good fun if vou sit on a swivel chair  :thumleft:

But I dont think gyroscopes have anythng to do with counter steering.
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Offline alanB

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #79 on: August 20, 2014, 09:58:04 am »

In my mind it's simple, the bike will always follow the front wheel but at a certain speed it will just fall over if no training wheels are fitted.

That's actually what I'm saying, at a certain speed the slight resistance of the off centre, non alined contact patch (when you turn the bars) makes the bike almost "trip" over its front wheel and it falls to the opposite side.  That's why you need the front wheel on the ground for counter steering to work.

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