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Author Topic: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)  (Read 3922 times)

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Offline Airguitar

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #80 on: August 20, 2014, 10:02:27 am »
...
If you look at the X fighters you will see that gyroscopic forces are in play in the air all the time.
...

"gyroscopic forces" over complicates the matter unnecessarily.

It's Newton's first law and the conservation of momentum. :cheers:

While what you say is correct you cannot discount gyroscopic forces. On the contrary, when riding a bicycle, motor cycle, or popping a wheelie, it is gyroscopic force that stops you from moering over in the first place. Even at a slow speed. Gyro forces are the motorcycle's "Raison d'etre".
I have been watching this thread carefully and have come to the conclusion that there are many elements which contribute to executing a turn on a motorcycle. The only theory which I reject outright is the "Below 40km/h" one. Simply because that would mean all bicycles are an optical illusion. Gyro force is a much misunderstood mojo which makes the life of a helicopter pilot a total misery, at least in the beginning until he or she sorts it out in their heads and it becomes automatic.

Coming back to countersteering, I still do believe that the Gyro effect is in effect, however I am now also convinced that the steering rake angle, leading axle, and Tyre geometry also all contribute to the equation.

One thing is certain. Designing a great-handling motorcycle is the result of a lot of learning and we have a lot to thank the pioneers of this science for.
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Offline subie

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2014, 10:03:11 am »
Kan nie glo hoe lank julle kan aangaan oor iets wat so natuurlik soos stap is nie  :eek7:
Pointless net soos n verdere bespreking van so n prentjie sal wees maar is seker julle sal kan lank aangaan oor angle,speed and....??
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Offline jagter

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #82 on: August 20, 2014, 10:05:11 am »
How I understand it.

If I drive my Ford Plaasbakkie down the road and I turn the steering wheel to the right, the body rolls to the left.  Exactly the same happens on a bike, however a bike, different to the bakkie, have its suspension and wheels connected to the bike in such a manner that the wheels lean with the body and once that happens, left you go.

This is also how I understand it. Turning the bars to the right actually turns the bike to the right for a microsecond, but that then throws the centre of gravity to the left, causing the bike to lean left, and then turn left.

 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2014, 10:12:34 am »
How I understand it.

If I drive my Ford Plaasbakkie down the road and I turn the steering wheel to the right, the body rolls to the left.  Exactly the same happens on a bike, however a bike, different to the bakkie, have its suspension and wheels connected to the bike in such a manner that the wheels lean with the body and once that happens, left you go.

This is also how I understand it. Turning the bars to the right actually turns the bike to the right for a microsecond, but that then throws the centre of gravity to the left, causing the bike to lean left, and then turn left.



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Offline Lem

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2014, 10:31:17 am »
Kan nie glo hoe lank julle kan aangaan oor iets wat so natuurlik soos stap is nie  :eek7:
Pointless net soos n verdere bespreking van so n prentjie sal wees maar is seker julle sal kan lank aangaan oor angle,speed and....??
 :spitcoffee:

ek stem saam met Subie. Hier is die oplossing vir diegene wie nie glo wat ervare ouens soos 2SD & Dux hier se nie.

strap n go-pro aan jou bors vas, en laat hy net jou handlebars afneem.

gaan ry dan 'n pad soos Helshoogte, met sy lang,sweeping bends. Volg dit ook op met 'n grondpad soos Van Der Stelpad tussen Villiersdorp & Botrivier. En kyk dan net die video. Jy sal jou oe nie glo nie  :thumleft:

Countersteering beteken nie as jy vandag parkering soek en jy sien n oop blok na links, dat jy skielik die regterkant van die handlebar intrek soos n roeispaan nie. Dan gaan jy regs moer.

Maar as jy op spoed is...en jy besef dat n bike tyre nie plat is nie, maar rondings het na beide kante toe, en jy wil links draai, dan moet jy iets doen om hom te tiep na die linkerkant van die band se ronding toe. Daardie onbewustelike aksie, van voorwiel effens na regs stuur, dit is countersteering. 

As jy 'n meer gedetaileerde verduideliking van dieselfde konsep as dit soek, gaan sit op die kakhuis en lees die laaste hoofstuk van Ridders van die Grondpad, deur Deon Meyer. Daar is 'n verduideliking van 'n toiletrol inner as voorbeeld, jy kan dit selfs oefen op die vloerteels as jy daar binne is. As jy klaar afgevee is gaan jy counter steer soos 'n demon, pappie.



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Offline alanB

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2014, 11:10:33 am »
Ok I'll buy into the centrifugal force idea as well, its nice and simple.  And makes intuitive sense :thumleft:

So to summarise, here's my view on how it all works   ::)  :bueller:  :biggrin:

1) At very low speeds the bike will follow the front wheel, we all (ok most of us) know that.
2) But when the speed get high enough for centrifugal forces to start dominating, a turn to the left will throw the CG to the right and the bike will actually lean to the right.
3) Once its leaned over it will turn in that direction - but you must adjust the bars to follow the turn.
4) You can adjust the amount you lean by small incremental inputs of counter steering.

No gyrscopes needed!

 :thumleft:

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Offline Airguitar

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2014, 12:59:55 pm »
Ok I'll buy into the centrifugal force idea as well, its nice and simple.  And makes intuitive sense :thumleft:

So to summarise, here's my view on how it all works   ::)  :bueller:  :biggrin:

1) At very low speeds the bike will follow the front wheel, we all (ok most of us) know that.
2) But when the speed get high enough for centrifugal forces to start dominating, a turn to the left will throw the CG to the right and the bike will actually lean to the right.
3) Once its leaned over it will turn in that direction - but you must adjust the bars to follow the turn.
4) You can adjust the amount you lean by small incremental inputs of counter steering.

No gyrscopes needed!

 :thumleft:



 :imaposer:
You just contradicted yourself..
The gyroscope effect is because of centrifugal force. It's the same thing.
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Offline alanB

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2014, 03:26:22 pm »
Ok I'll buy into the centrifugal force idea as well, its nice and simple.  And makes intuitive sense :thumleft:

So to summarise, here's my view on how it all works   ::)  :bueller:  :biggrin:

1) At very low speeds the bike will follow the front wheel, we all (ok most of us) know that.
2) But when the speed get high enough for centrifugal forces to start dominating, a turn to the left will throw the CG to the right and the bike will actually lean to the right.
3) Once its leaned over it will turn in that direction - but you must adjust the bars to follow the turn.
4) You can adjust the amount you lean by small incremental inputs of counter steering.

No gyrscopes needed!

 :thumleft:



 :imaposer:
You just contradicted yourself..
The gyroscope effect is because of centrifugal force. It's the same thing.

Um no - the one is conservation of angular momentum acting on the spinning wheel while centrifugal force is due to linear momentum acting on the CG of the bike/rider.  Two different forces entirely???

But lets not start the whole thing again.  :thumleft:

I'm happy with the explanation as it is.  I'm sure everyone else is happy to leave it at that as well?

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Offline Airguitar

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2014, 04:24:28 pm »
Ok I'll buy into the centrifugal force idea as well, its nice and simple.  And makes intuitive sense :thumleft:

So to summarise, here's my view on how it all works   ::)  :bueller:  :biggrin:

1) At very low speeds the bike will follow the front wheel, we all (ok most of us) know that.
2) But when the speed get high enough for centrifugal forces to start dominating, a turn to the left will throw the CG to the right and the bike will actually lean to the right.
3) Once its leaned over it will turn in that direction - but you must adjust the bars to follow the turn.
4) You can adjust the amount you lean by small incremental inputs of counter steering.

No gyrscopes needed!
 :thumleft:
:imaposer:
You just contradicted yourself..
The gyroscope effect is because of centrifugal force. It's the same thing.
Um no - the one is conservation of angular momentum acting on the spinning wheel while centrifugal force is due to linear momentum acting on the CG of the bike/rider.  Two different forces entirely???
But lets not start the whole thing again.  :thumleft:
I'm happy with the explanation as it is.  I'm sure everyone else is happy to leave it at that as well?

Deal!  :deal: :thumleft:
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2014 Triumph Tiger 800XC.
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Boeing 747
 

Offline subie

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Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2014, 04:34:00 pm »
I have learned something from all this. "My bike will always follow it's own front wheel ". Very reassuring  :thumleft:
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Offline jagter

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2014, 04:40:30 pm »
I have learned something from all this. "My bike will always follow it's own front wheel ". Very reassuring  :thumleft:
 :lol8:

haha.  There's quite a few youtube videos out there showing the opposite.  Bikes suddenly following their back wheels, or the tank and tires switching vertical positions. It's all very mystifying.

I think if you over counter steer, then the counter gets countered, gyroscopes kick in and this happens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N89v6Wj82lQ


 

Offline Bells

Re: Cornering - countersteer (The Myth)
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2014, 07:25:56 pm »
I think this page should end with this comment


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