Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Author Topic: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC  (Read 3178 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline OomD

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 2,881
  • Thanked: 196 times
  • #imstayingpositive
Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« on: September 16, 2014, 08:36:56 am »
Yesterday I rode over some bumpy sections, causing the bike to surge forward every time my hand rotated the twistgrip even slightly. On my older GS (and any bike with a cable throttle, really) the freeplay in the twistgrip actually prevents you from accelerating or revving accidentally while navigating rough terrain.

It's not nice having to force myself to keep the throttle closed. I realise that muscle memory will eventually eliminate this problem, but every time I ride another bike and then my LC again it's back.

Does anyone know of there is a way to set the ECU, or to adjust something on the twistgrip to allow for a few degrees of freeplay? Mine has none at all! Or, is it supposed to have some freeplay and mine just doesn't?
 

Offline Draadwerk

  • Moderator
  • Forum Whore
  • ****
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Mpumalanga
  • Posts: 7,924
  • Thanked: 39 times
  • My job? Just something I do between rides....
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 08:50:39 am »
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie
 

Offline Noneking

Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 09:02:31 am »
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie

Nee man!! Dis soos om vir 'n paaldanser 'n jean, trui en tekkies te laat aantrek........ :pot:
2006 HP2 Enduro 1229
2019 KTM 790 R

NONEKING'S RIDE REPORTS - http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=226099.0
 

Offline OomD

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 2,881
  • Thanked: 196 times
  • #imstayingpositive
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 09:48:20 am »
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie
Ja kan werk... maar detune dit nie ook die enjin so bietjie nie? En maak die traction control en ABS bietjie meer aggresief. Ek hou van die krag as ek die oor draai, wil nie dit verloor nie. Sal in elk geval probeer, dankie.
 

Offline Lord Knormoer

  • is nog 'n kinders :-)
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: United Kingdom
  • Posts: 3,144
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • Wassie ekkie!
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2014, 09:55:03 am »
Wat van rain mode- hy vertraag die throttle bietjie

+1

That would be my advice too if you struggle with the throttle, in fact if you attend BMW training they reccomend this for hill climbs. I would just switch the TC off when using Rain mode offroad to get the benefit of wheelspin.

Alternatively, ride in Dynamic Mode with TC switched off all the time to get used to the throttle response :thumleft:
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,817
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2014, 09:58:32 am »
I will have Accelerator Modules available for the LC in two weeks time. The problem is a common one caused by lean mixtures prescribed by EU emission standards. The accelerator module improves the air/fuel ratio in the acceleration loop only and greatly improves the situation.
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline Lord Knormoer

  • is nog 'n kinders :-)
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: United Kingdom
  • Posts: 3,144
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • Wassie ekkie!
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 10:02:22 am »
I will have Accelerator Modules available for the LC in two weeks time. The problem is a common one caused by lean mixtures prescribed by EU emission standards. The accelerator module improves the air/fuel ratio in the acceleration loop only and greatly improves the situation.

I doubt this will address the specific challenge. The LC throttle response is very direct and takes some getting used too. I also question the good sense of fitting this to bikes under warranty which at present includes all K50/K51's on the road.
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,817
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2014, 10:49:46 am »
The Accelerator Module is a plug and play unit and does not affect the warranty at all. I have fitted an AM on my bike since new and informed BMW of this.

The direct throttle is an issue on most new bikes. A too lean mixture causes a too wide throttle opening to compensate, resulting in a sudden surge. Read the threads on the F800GS throttle response. The AM has done wonders.

For a technical explanation of the on/off effect - :

The main computer or ECU can work in 2 modes. The first mode is called "open-loop" and the second one is called "closed-loop". In both modes, the ECU needs to have some information so it can calculate the amount of fuel that needs to be injected.
The closed-loop feature of the ECU system is rather simple. This uses a Lambda sensor in the exhaust to read whether there is an excess or lack of oxygen in the exhaust. It goes rich – lean – rich – lean, +- every 2 seconds. The ECU uses the sensor output to either lean or richen the fuel injected (that is reduce or extend the pulse width towards the injectors) with the result that the sensor's output alternates from 0.2 to 0.8 volts and back again.
Although rich – lean means "a little rich" and "a little lean" it produces a stoichiermetricly correct air/fuel ratio (approx. 14.7 to 1). This cycling of the fuel mixture to ensure the stoichiermetricly correct ratio is good for the operation of the catalytic convertor, and generally helps with fuel economy, but not much for smooth operation or "feel".

The open-loop mode is needed since the Lambda sensor is not quick enough in response when you are e.g. accelerating with your bike.
So the fuel map contains the info the control software of the ECU uses to tell the injectors how long to open, and the ignition circuit when to fire the spark plugs. P.s. The ECU itself is just a little, specialised control system computer, totally unaware that it is making a motorcycle go vroom vroom. The map is different for each bike model – capacity, state of tune, etc. The same ECU can be used, with the appropriate map, in any bike (or car, truck, boat, etc) designed to work with it.

The ACCELERATOR module™ is an answer to the "lean fuel mixtures" problems. It is an add-on product that adjust the ratio of the fuel mixture to the optimum ratio mainly during acceleration. So a richer fuel mixture helps to accelerate the engine. Also it will helps to start the bike better.

The nett result is that it creates a smoother power delivery throughout the whole rpm range (already clearly visible at much lower rpm's compared to the standard configuration, where much less an "on-off" feeling prevails). The engine picks up faster and runs smoother. A clear improvement of a faster throttle response is immediately observed. Also, the KFR (Konstant Fahr Ruckeln) on the BMW boxer engines will in most cases disappear, as this is also a result of using a too lean fuel mixture.
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline Lord Knormoer

  • is nog 'n kinders :-)
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: United Kingdom
  • Posts: 3,144
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • Wassie ekkie!
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2014, 11:01:42 am »
Sorry but I have read this before and still do not see how it will address the OP's problem. Maybe Donford could fit one to a demo bike so we can experience it?

There is quit a difference between throttle response on the F800 vs the K50/K51 range.

I personally like the very direct and very responsive e-throttle on the K50 :thumleft:
 

Offline PieterV

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 19
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2014, 11:03:44 am »
Oom, Rest one or two fingers on the clutch lever, and the outer side of your palm where the hand protector meets the throttle - this hand position enables accurate throttle control
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 11:04:38 am by PieterV »
 

Offline OomD

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 2,881
  • Thanked: 196 times
  • #imstayingpositive
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2014, 11:49:13 am »
Oom, Rest one or two fingers on the clutch lever, and the outer side of your palm where the hand protector meets the throttle - this hand position enables accurate throttle control
I gather you mean the brake lever? But yes, I have even tried holding onto the throttle quite lightly. Look I have not problem with the direct throttle response, in fact I love it! It is just the first few degrees of throttle movement I would prefer no responce, allowing for some movement in my wrist when crossing rough terrain.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 11:51:15 am by OomD »
 

Offline OomD

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 2,881
  • Thanked: 196 times
  • #imstayingpositive
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 11:55:38 am »
The Accelerator Module is a plug and play unit and does not affect the warranty at all. I have fitted an AM on my bike since new and informed BMW of this.

The direct throttle is an issue on most new bikes. A too lean mixture causes a too wide throttle opening to compensate, resulting in a sudden surge. Read the threads on the F800GS throttle response. The AM has done wonders.

For a technical explanation of the on/off effect - :

The main computer or ECU can work in 2 modes. The first mode is called "open-loop" and the second one is called "closed-loop". In both modes, the ECU needs to have some information so it can calculate the amount of fuel that needs to be injected.
The closed-loop feature of the ECU system is rather simple. This uses a Lambda sensor in the exhaust to read whether there is an excess or lack of oxygen in the exhaust. It goes rich – lean – rich – lean, +- every 2 seconds. The ECU uses the sensor output to either lean or richen the fuel injected (that is reduce or extend the pulse width towards the injectors) with the result that the sensor's output alternates from 0.2 to 0.8 volts and back again.
Although rich – lean means "a little rich" and "a little lean" it produces a stoichiermetricly correct air/fuel ratio (approx. 14.7 to 1). This cycling of the fuel mixture to ensure the stoichiermetricly correct ratio is good for the operation of the catalytic convertor, and generally helps with fuel economy, but not much for smooth operation or "feel".

The open-loop mode is needed since the Lambda sensor is not quick enough in response when you are e.g. accelerating with your bike.
So the fuel map contains the info the control software of the ECU uses to tell the injectors how long to open, and the ignition circuit when to fire the spark plugs. P.s. The ECU itself is just a little, specialised control system computer, totally unaware that it is making a motorcycle go vroom vroom. The map is different for each bike model – capacity, state of tune, etc. The same ECU can be used, with the appropriate map, in any bike (or car, truck, boat, etc) designed to work with it.

The ACCELERATOR module™ is an answer to the "lean fuel mixtures" problems. It is an add-on product that adjust the ratio of the fuel mixture to the optimum ratio mainly during acceleration. So a richer fuel mixture helps to accelerate the engine. Also it will helps to start the bike better.

The nett result is that it creates a smoother power delivery throughout the whole rpm range (already clearly visible at much lower rpm's compared to the standard configuration, where much less an "on-off" feeling prevails). The engine picks up faster and runs smoother. A clear improvement of a faster throttle response is immediately observed. Also, the KFR (Konstant Fahr Ruckeln) on the BMW boxer engines will in most cases disappear, as this is also a result of using a too lean fuel mixture.
The way I see it your AM is just an additional resistor that goes in line with the air inlet's  temperature sensor, fooling the ECU into thinking the air is hotter than it actually is, thereby adjusting the fuel ratio to make it richer? Am I correct?

On my prevous '08 GS I soldered a resistor in myself, and it did help indeed. But I find no reason to add it to the LC. Additionally, like LK says, this won't resolve the issue I am having.

But thanks anyway! I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.
 

Offline PieterV

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 19
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2014, 12:20:42 pm »
Oom, Rest one or two fingers on the clutch lever, and the outer side of your palm where the hand protector meets the throttle - this hand position enables accurate throttle control
I gather you mean the brake lever? But yes, I have even tried holding onto the throttle quite lightly. Look I have not problem with the direct throttle response, in fact I love it! It is just the first few degrees of throttle movement I would prefer no responce, allowing for some movement in my wrist when crossing rough terrain.

Yes, sorry.  The throttle works great for me as it is - had a 2007 GS before.
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,817
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2014, 12:38:26 pm »
The Accelerator Module is a plug and play unit and does not affect the warranty at all. I have fitted an AM on my bike since new and informed BMW of this.

The direct throttle is an issue on most new bikes. A too lean mixture causes a too wide throttle opening to compensate, resulting in a sudden surge. Read the threads on the F800GS throttle response. The AM has done wonders.

For a technical explanation of the on/off effect - :

The main computer or ECU can work in 2 modes. The first mode is called "open-loop" and the second one is called "closed-loop". In both modes, the ECU needs to have some information so it can calculate the amount of fuel that needs to be injected.
The closed-loop feature of the ECU system is rather simple. This uses a Lambda sensor in the exhaust to read whether there is an excess or lack of oxygen in the exhaust. It goes rich – lean – rich – lean, +- every 2 seconds. The ECU uses the sensor output to either lean or richen the fuel injected (that is reduce or extend the pulse width towards the injectors) with the result that the sensor's output alternates from 0.2 to 0.8 volts and back again.
Although rich – lean means "a little rich" and "a little lean" it produces a stoichiermetricly correct air/fuel ratio (approx. 14.7 to 1). This cycling of the fuel mixture to ensure the stoichiermetricly correct ratio is good for the operation of the catalytic convertor, and generally helps with fuel economy, but not much for smooth operation or "feel".

The open-loop mode is needed since the Lambda sensor is not quick enough in response when you are e.g. accelerating with your bike.
So the fuel map contains the info the control software of the ECU uses to tell the injectors how long to open, and the ignition circuit when to fire the spark plugs. P.s. The ECU itself is just a little, specialised control system computer, totally unaware that it is making a motorcycle go vroom vroom. The map is different for each bike model – capacity, state of tune, etc. The same ECU can be used, with the appropriate map, in any bike (or car, truck, boat, etc) designed to work with it.

The ACCELERATOR module™ is an answer to the "lean fuel mixtures" problems. It is an add-on product that adjust the ratio of the fuel mixture to the optimum ratio mainly during acceleration. So a richer fuel mixture helps to accelerate the engine. Also it will helps to start the bike better.

The nett result is that it creates a smoother power delivery throughout the whole rpm range (already clearly visible at much lower rpm's compared to the standard configuration, where much less an "on-off" feeling prevails). The engine picks up faster and runs smoother. A clear improvement of a faster throttle response is immediately observed. Also, the KFR (Konstant Fahr Ruckeln) on the BMW boxer engines will in most cases disappear, as this is also a result of using a too lean fuel mixture.
The way I see it your AM is just an additional resistor that goes in line with the air inlet's  temperature sensor, fooling the ECU into thinking the air is hotter than it actually is, thereby adjusting the fuel ratio to make it richer? Am I correct?

On my prevous '08 GS I soldered a resistor in myself, and it did help indeed. But I find no reason to add it to the LC. Additionally, like LK says, this won't resolve the issue I am having.

But thanks anyway! I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.

You are right. The AM plugs inline to alter the signal coming from the temperature sensor it tells the ECU that it is +-20°C colder than the ambient temperature, with a taper off towards 0°C.

Not just one resistor is used, but in the makers own words "It is a combination of different electronics parts that define a certain type of module. By playing with these values, I can create a specific module for a specific motorbike".

I specifically asked whether the AM is still necessary for the new R1200 LC as it now has different riding programs. The feedback was that as many AMs are sold for the LC than for the old R1200's, for the same reasons. On grounds of that I am bringing in the AM4 - specifically made for the LC - to test it in the local market. Too lean mixtures for certain circumstances is still a problem, and will remain one with even stricter EU regulations.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 12:40:35 pm by Jacobsroodt »
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline Lord Knormoer

  • is nog 'n kinders :-)
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: United Kingdom
  • Posts: 3,144
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • Wassie ekkie!
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2014, 12:39:28 pm »
I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.

I find this curious. I asked BMW to wire an f800 for spots so I could plug in an aftermarket set and they indicated that plugging anything into the wiring that's not certified will void the warranty.
 

Offline OomD

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 2,881
  • Thanked: 196 times
  • #imstayingpositive
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2014, 01:14:59 pm »
I can see how using your module can help without voiding the warrantee, as it just plugs in.

I find this curious. I asked BMW to wire an f800 for spots so I could plug in an aftermarket set and they indicated that plugging anything into the wiring that's not certified will void the warranty.

Yep, I also had that conversation with Bavarian when I bought my LC, as I want to fit my own spots. They didn't like me going directly to the battery, but agreed that I can plug them onto the accessory connector (the one in the harness, not the Hella plug next to the instrument cluster) as that is exactly what the connector is intended for... accessories! And it is also electronically fused (by the ECU) and controlled by the ignition. Finally, there's no tampering of the harness so Bavarian were happy that I follow that path, while not voiding the warrantee.

I fact I think that is how most (if not all) after market spots are connected, but I might be wrong.

The AM is, off course, a different story as you are not connecting onto a protected outlet, but rather interfering with the bike's setup. However, being a plug-in module you could easily remove it again at service time, if you are so inclined. Personally I would seek the dealer's approval first.
 

Offline K-9

Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2014, 03:31:04 pm »
Yesterday I rode over some bumpy sections, causing the bike to surge forward every time my hand rotated the twistgrip even slightly. On my older GS (and any bike with a cable throttle, really) the freeplay in the twistgrip actually prevents you from accelerating or revving accidentally while navigating rough terrain.

It's not nice having to force myself to keep the throttle closed. I realise that muscle memory will eventually eliminate this problem, but every time I ride another bike and then my LC again it's back.

Does anyone know of there is a way to set the ECU, or to adjust something on the twistgrip to allow for a few degrees of freeplay? Mine has none at all! Or, is it supposed to have some freeplay and mine just doesn't?

i have had one instance of something like this on a road, the bumps in the tar where small but continuous, like big corrugations - slight but continuous. 

i could very feel sight throttle changes (very slight surging) and i could see my elbow bouncing slightly, i was sitting.  i ride a GSA LC and was on "dynamic", i changed to "road" and it stopped immediately, the "bouncing" continued for about 10kms on the freeway, i also put the bike onto soft and it helped.

i have done well over 16 000kms and only had this once in that time and never off road.   this was very light you could hardly call it surging??

what setting were you on??
Great family 4x4 accommodation ... see Facebook, Google maps and airbnb.. Mkulu Kei / Wild Wind Ranch

Bikes owned in the past: AC50, AC100, SP370, XT185E, GS550CE, DL650 V-strom, GS650, DR650, GSA1200 2009, GSA1200 2011: GSA1200LC 2014, GS800.

Still own or sponsor today: GSA 1200 LC tft adventure 2018, Honda CTX200 bushlander, Yamaha rhino 660, GS800 2011 (daughter), GSA1200 adventure LC 2016 (son).
 

Offline OomD

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 2,881
  • Thanked: 196 times
  • #imstayingpositive
Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2014, 05:24:13 pm »
I was on Dynamic. Riding home today I tried rain mode and it indeed dampened the throttle response enough over the rough (tar) section. Then I went again, using road mode and it was still great. Just to satisfy my mind I went again on dynamic mode, and the bumpy road caused some jerkyness with my riding style again.

I realize, off course, that this is an issue with my riding style and not with the bike. I think I'll stick to road mode, and keep dynamic mode for when the hooligan in me wants to rear it's head. Which is happening more often with this bike, I must admit :-D
 

Offline Lord Knormoer

  • is nog 'n kinders :-)
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: United Kingdom
  • Posts: 3,144
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • Wassie ekkie!
Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2014, 05:28:40 pm »
I was on Dynamic. Riding home today I tried rain mode and it indeed dampened the throttle response enough over the rough (tar) section. Then I went again, using road mode and it was still great. Just to satisfy my mind I went again on dynamic mode, and the bumpy road caused some jerkyness with my riding style again.

I realize, off course, that this is an issue with my riding style and not with the bike. I think I'll stick to road mode, and keep dynamic mode for when the hooligan in me wants to rear it's head. Which is happening more often with this bike, I must admit :-D

All the modes are computer optimized with the exception of Dynamic that offers direct response.

 

Offline Nox

Re: Throttle freeplay, or lack thereof on the LC
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2014, 06:58:33 pm »
Keep your index finger on clutch and front brake, that will stabilize you, or do a country trax course! :ricky:
To Live is Christ - To die is Gain... Fil: 1:21

2013 1200 GS - 2011 KTM 300 - current
2008 1200 GS 2007 XMoto
2006 Kawasaki KDX 200 - current bike 2012 Kawasaki KX 250 2008 Kawasaki ZX 14 2008 Kawasaki ZX 6 2004 BMW 1200 GS Suzuki GSXR 1000 K4 - stuntbike 1994 Honda Fireblade 900 rr - stuntbike 2006 ER6F - stuntbike 2006 Honda TRX 400 2008 Kawasaki KLR 650 Green 2008 Kawasaki KLR 650 Blue - written off 2006 Kawasaki Z 750 S 1984 BMW R100RS 1992 Yamaha DT 180 1988 Honda MTX 50 1985 Kawasaki