Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Author Topic: Why are we hitting the deck?  (Read 2462 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TVB

  • Deleted Users
  • Grey hound
  • *
  • Bike: Honda XL650V Transalp
    Location: North West
  • Posts: 5,979
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2014, 12:16:45 am »
Not an art to ride fast as anybody can, but the real thing is reaction time, how quick you can gain control when thing get out of hand and how quick you can come to a safe stop. I liked the very first post in this thread as it clearly ask and give the honest answers. And yes; agree or disagree as much as you like but it is 90% of the time the bikers mistake. I have witnessed this on the freeway while working as a biker medic. Fact I tell you, I have followed bikers on my emergency response bike and witnessed them making faults and then giving the middle finger to every second poor cager. Adventure riders are however a bit more cautious but I picked up a couple of them over the weekends on the highways coming back from events. Either tired or pissed...now for that I have no sympathy. Yes I was annoyed with drunk riders but always gave the best medical attention I could. Just always have a silent thought, something like; 'you idiot, you got a wife and kids and then you drink and drive/ride and cause them a lot of unnecessary trouble and even embarrassment. This almost gave me an opertunety to rant/vent a bit  :imaposer:
 

Offline DirtyHarry

  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R80GS
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 2,713
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • The journey will never end.
    • waveline holiday accommodation
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2014, 09:09:13 am »
All my crashes have been self inflicted so far. When I started riding I did fall on regular base. Wrong bike on the wrong terrain and a good dose of inexperience in the first 3 years of my riding. The last 2 years I am riding faster than ever and didn't hit the deck any more. Must have learnt something.

In my opinion there are only 3 possible reasons to crash. Inexperience, stupidity or bad luck (If you get struck by lightning or get run over by a truck)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 07:18:08 pm by DirtyHarry »
 

Offline subie

  • Local Mods
  • Bachelor Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: Yamaha XT660
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 10,522
  • Thanked: 376 times
  • Liberalism is the ideology of Western suicide.
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2014, 09:12:58 am »
Another thing. We are biking,there is no such thing as not hitting the deck. Everyone will fall some or other time.  :ricky:
As time washes by, our footprints are all for naught
The left is full of people who have been educated far beyond their intelligence
 

Offline Airguitar

  • I prefer girls that sing soprano.
  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: Honda XR600
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 1,419
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • My name is Derek.
    • Derek Herbst
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2014, 11:06:39 am »
Another thing. We are biking,there is no such thing as not hitting the deck. Everyone will fall some or other time.  :ricky:

I'm hoping that doesn't mean we should take an ag-fokkit attitude. Most accidents when analyzed are actually avoidable, and NOT falling is always the preferable outcome, physically, psychologically and financially. It therefore makes sense to attempt to minimize risk and avoid accidents.
I'm of the opinion that, hopefully, as you get older and gain more experience you generally take fewer risks and ride more with the head and less with the hormones in control. The old bikers and bold bikers maxim. I'm really keen on falling into the former category..
 :biggrin:  :ricky:
My rides:
2014 Triumph Tiger 800XC.
Honda VF750S
Boeing 747
 

Offline subie

  • Local Mods
  • Bachelor Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: Yamaha XT660
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 10,522
  • Thanked: 376 times
  • Liberalism is the ideology of Western suicide.
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2014, 11:15:55 am »
Another thing. We are biking,there is no such thing as not hitting the deck. Everyone will fall some or other time.  :ricky:

I'm hoping that doesn't mean we should take an ag-fokkit attitude. Most accidents when analyzed are actually avoidable, and NOT falling is always the preferable outcome, physically, psychologically and financially. It therefore makes sense to attempt to minimize risk and avoid accidents.
I'm of the opinion that, hopefully, as you get older and gain more experience you generally take fewer risks and ride more with the head and less with the hormones in control. The old bikers and bold bikers maxim. I'm really keen on falling into the former category..
 :biggrin:  :ricky:

No sane and normal biker wants to fall or enjoy falling. It is just a fact that you will fall some or other time. If you have an "ag-fokkit" attitude then I doubt if you fit into the sane and normal category. I am an old biker and will always ride "a bit bold". The day my bike just becomes "transport" is the time to hang up the boots and walk away from biking.
The popular little saying there are bold bikers and old bikers but no old and bold bikers is just bullshit. There are many old and bold bikers out there. Believe it.
Just look around a bit  :ricky:
Also remember we all ride for different reasons.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 11:16:50 am by subie »
As time washes by, our footprints are all for naught
The left is full of people who have been educated far beyond their intelligence
 

Offline Brainbucket

  • Puppy
  • *
  • Bike: BMW F700GS
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 11
Re:
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2014, 08:59:43 am »
I have applied for the latest stats from various sources and unfortunately I am still waiting for the burocrats to get back to me as promised.  But based on all available info (dated) it seems 70/30 split between rider error and actual other road users being dicks.  If I get will post.
Smiling coz its fun!
 

Offline Kneeslider

  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: AJS (all models)
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 755
    • Classic Cycle Cabin
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2014, 11:30:51 am »
A big factor is that we have lost a great portion of our riding skills and judgement along with decision making skills.
The ever increasing levels of automation on modern bikes is doing more and more for the rider and taking away a large part of the decision making process and the riders judgment ability is atrophying.
A secondary effect is a false sense of security, when the paw paw hits the fan, we can just stomp on the brake pedal and grab a hand full of brake lever and all will be fine as the ABS, Anti Skid, Anti Dive, Anti shit yourself, twitter, twotter and all the other electronic gizmos take control and drag the machine to a stop in the shortest possible distance taking the safest route through the cars.
Which contributes to the "devil may care" attitude displayed by some riders.

Ask your self honestly, can you bring the bike to a stop from 120km/h in the shortest possible distance without the electronic wizardry?
Can you regulate both wheels on the verge of lock up, but just short of actually locking up for the full distance from 120 to 0, a tough ask indeed, better yet, better yet, hop on the bike and try it, it will be nerve wracking and I guarantee you won't come anywhere close to stopping as short as the electronics can, now think about this, if you can't do it under controlled conditions, what chance do you have in a panic situation with adrenaline flooding through your body? 
Can you FEEL the limit of the grip, do you KNOW how much pressure is required on the lever or pedal to achieve maximum braking just short of locking up the wheel, can your body instinctively SENSE the beginning of a lock up and the tire getting ready to slide?
How far can your bike be leaned over before the tires give up and let go, do you know where the limit is, I promise you, it is far, far past your personal limit.
Riding a motorcycle safely and efficiently requires a very specialized skill set, one where the riders arms, legs, butt and central nervous system become an extension of the motorcycle.
We, as riders are loosing those skills, and that is placing us in harms way.
If you look at the stats, you will see that those who commute daily on a motorcycle are far less prone to accidents than your average weekend warrior, even though statiscally they should be at higher risk due to the longer time in the saddle, it is all a numbers and percentage game, but their skills have not atrophied, as with people who learnt and developed the skills on old school classic bikes without all the whizz bang black magic.

I am not saying for one minute it is the only cause, all the other points made are just as valid, and are all contributors, however I am a firm believer that automation has a great part to play, albeit not directly.

What about on different surfaces

Offline badseed

  • Ride the adventure
  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 709
  • KTM 990S, KTM690R , Vespa 200GT
    • www.wildwood.capetown
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2014, 12:17:18 pm »
I've been riding my 690 exclusively for the last six weeks and generally cruise a good 30kph slower than on the 990.  Getting back on 990 this week I was shocked at how much faster I cruise, and how much longer it takes to stop the thing. Had a few moments in the peak hour traffic. And that's just tar riding.  Consider what the stopping distance of a fully fueled 990 ( or much worse a GS1200a ) at 140kph on a loose dirt toad. I would guess the 690 stops in about 25% of the distance of the 990.

Now consider a relative novice on a +100hp bike  ( large percentage of this forum)  having to stop suddenly from speed. I cringe when I read reports of guys with 1200's saying they can handle their big bombers and only ride gravel highways , often mentioning speeds over 150kph. Up until 2000 nobody needed 100hp , nobody had 100hp , but nowadays it's a must to able to tour .
Owner WildWood Motorcycle Tours South Africa
 

Offline subie

  • Local Mods
  • Bachelor Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: Yamaha XT660
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 10,522
  • Thanked: 376 times
  • Liberalism is the ideology of Western suicide.
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2014, 12:48:25 pm »
I've been riding my 690 exclusively for the last six weeks and generally cruise a good 30kph slower than on the 990.  Getting back on 990 this week I was shocked at how much faster I cruise, and how much longer it takes to stop the thing. Had a few moments in the peak hour traffic. And that's just tar riding.  Consider what the stopping distance of a fully fueled 990 ( or much worse a GS1200a ) at 140kph on a loose dirt toad. I would guess the 690 stops in about 25% of the distance of the 990.

Now consider a relative novice on a +100hp bike  ( large percentage of this forum)  having to stop suddenly from speed. I cringe when I read reports of guys with 1200's saying they can handle their big bombers and only ride gravel highways , often mentioning speeds over 150kph. Up until 2000 nobody needed 100hp , nobody had 100hp , but nowadays it's a must to able to tour .

 :thumleft:
Like what you are saying.
As time washes by, our footprints are all for naught
The left is full of people who have been educated far beyond their intelligence
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

  • a Man of Character
  • Worshond
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 28,004
  • Thanked: 2736 times
  • Slim like Bill, straight like Steve
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2014, 05:53:38 pm »
It is because people are becoming so damn overweight that they need all that horsepower. :pot:

Surprisingly, if you look at things closely, then there are no real difference between us bikers and our brethren in cars. Reckless/unattentive/unskilled people wipe themselves out
in cars and on motorcycles.
When you run your car off the road into the rocks, your chances are less to injure yourself though.
 

Offline subie

  • Local Mods
  • Bachelor Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: Yamaha XT660
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 10,522
  • Thanked: 376 times
  • Liberalism is the ideology of Western suicide.
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2014, 06:18:56 pm »
It is because people are becoming so damn overweight that they need all that horsepower. :pot:

Surprisingly, if you look at things closely, then there are no real difference between us bikers and our brethren in cars. Reckless/unattentive/unskilled people wipe themselves out
in cars and on motorcycles.
When you run your car off the road into the rocks, your chances are less to injure yourself though.

Diep "gewond" nou :snorting:
As time washes by, our footprints are all for naught
The left is full of people who have been educated far beyond their intelligence
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

  • a Man of Character
  • Worshond
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 28,004
  • Thanked: 2736 times
  • Slim like Bill, straight like Steve
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2014, 06:32:06 pm »
Sorry Subie, was n bietjie van n kak remark. :deal:
 

Offline sheldyn

  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: USA
  • Posts: 1,066
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • dictum meum pactum
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2014, 09:50:26 pm »
One must also factor in the fact that there are far more bikers on the road today than in the past.  And certainly a far greater number that are now commuting daily.  Is the ratio changing or is it just higher numbers due to more bikers on the road.  This brings to mind congestion and the fact that there are more cars too,  this would also drive the danger even higher.
Regards,

Sheldyn
 

Offline TVB

  • Deleted Users
  • Grey hound
  • *
  • Bike: Honda XL650V Transalp
    Location: North West
  • Posts: 5,979
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2014, 10:51:16 pm »
One must also factor in the fact that there are far more bikers on the road today than in the past.  And certainly a far greater number that are now commuting daily.  Is the ratio changing or is it just higher numbers due to more bikers on the road.  This brings to mind congestion and the fact that there are more cars too,  this would also drive the danger even higher.

Valid points, but we are also (ratio) so much more people on the planet although.......are we ??? The white ethnic in SA is in a Negative population growth. Now that makes one think doesn't it? That means that out of every white household there are either none, one or 2 children born. Lets say there are two; that means we are only braking even, we are not growing. Most of my friends decided not to have any children. The white'ies are the majority bikers on the road, at least when commuting. However, the darker brothers are playing the catch up game. Had a look at Soweto bikers club and was stunned by the numbers!! Please, don;t read politics here  :deal:
 

Offline sheldyn

  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: USA
  • Posts: 1,066
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • dictum meum pactum
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2014, 11:04:22 pm »
Most of my friends decided not to have any children.


Serious???
Regards,

Sheldyn
 

Offline subie

  • Local Mods
  • Bachelor Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: Yamaha XT660
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 10,522
  • Thanked: 376 times
  • Liberalism is the ideology of Western suicide.
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2014, 05:52:57 am »
Sorry Subie, was n bietjie van n kak remark. :deal:


Nee man ek spot maar net. Ek is nie n fyngevoelige dikgat nie  :spitcoffee:
As time washes by, our footprints are all for naught
The left is full of people who have been educated far beyond their intelligence
 

Offline DCR

  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 730
  • Thanked: 6 times
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2014, 06:48:50 am »
A big factor is that we have lost a great portion of our riding skills and judgement along with decision making skills.
The ever increasing levels of automation on modern bikes is doing more and more for the rider and taking away a large part of the decision making process and the riders judgment ability is atrophying.
A secondary effect is a false sense of security, when the paw paw hits the fan, we can just stomp on the brake pedal and grab a hand full of brake lever and all will be fine as the ABS, Anti Skid, Anti Dive, Anti shit yourself, twitter, twotter and all the other electronic gizmos take control and drag the machine to a stop in the shortest possible distance taking the safest route through the cars.
Which contributes to the "devil may care" attitude displayed by some riders.

Ask your self honestly, can you bring the bike to a stop from 120km/h in the shortest possible distance without the electronic wizardry?
Can you regulate both wheels on the verge of lock up, but just short of actually locking up for the full distance from 120 to 0, a tough ask indeed, better yet, better yet, hop on the bike and try it, it will be nerve wracking and I guarantee you won't come anywhere close to stopping as short as the electronics can, now think about this, if you can't do it under controlled conditions, what chance do you have in a panic situation with adrenaline flooding through your body? 
Can you FEEL the limit of the grip, do you KNOW how much pressure is required on the lever or pedal to achieve maximum braking just short of locking up the wheel, can your body instinctively SENSE the beginning of a lock up and the tire getting ready to slide?
How far can your bike be leaned over before the tires give up and let go, do you know where the limit is, I promise you, it is far, far past your personal limit.
Riding a motorcycle safely and efficiently requires a very specialized skill set, one where the riders arms, legs, butt and central nervous system become an extension of the motorcycle.
We, as riders are loosing those skills, and that is placing us in harms way.
If you look at the stats, you will see that those who commute daily on a motorcycle are far less prone to accidents than your average weekend warrior, even though statiscally they should be at higher risk due to the longer time in the saddle, it is all a numbers and percentage game, but their skills have not atrophied, as with people who learnt and developed the skills on old school classic bikes without all the whizz bang black magic.

I am not saying for one minute it is the only cause, all the other points made are just as valid, and are all contributors, however I am a firm believer that automation has a great part to play, albeit not directly.

What about on different surfaces

Thats a beautiful speech but quite irrelevant in my opinion. So, my bike stops faster with ABS than without (sorry that I'm not Rossi and just a normal guy). I'd say thats a good thing, not bad in case of emergency I'll be better off. The thing has ABS and it helps me, why is that bad?

It doesn't mean I go faster, it doesn't mean I take bigger risks. It does mean I prefer a bike with it (just as I do cars since I'm no super driver either) and I don't switch it off.

I ride every day and looking at the other bikers on the road its clear why more bikers fall everybody is just riding too fast for the conditions with very few exceptions. Same thing with cars.
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

  • a Man of Character
  • Worshond
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 28,004
  • Thanked: 2736 times
  • Slim like Bill, straight like Steve
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2014, 07:17:29 am »
DCR, you know what I believe to be the biggest problem is with electronic aid on cars and motorbikes? The rider.

Why? The electronics are becoming so good that you do not need to be in feel with your machine anymore to accelerate fast or to brake well.
Now this is for many not a problem, but it also means that it makes bikes more accessible to less talented people, who would normally have stayed away.
Now blonde poppie can accelerate and brake right with you, but what sort of decisions are going to be made by this rider?

Looking at the overall talent of riders percentage wise to when I was a young man, it is clear that many people nowadays should not even be on bikes. Years ago, most guys on big bikes could ride at least reasonably well, and those that could not was usually on small bikes. Todaythere is a stigma attached to being seen on a small[beginners] bike.

Take a Yamaha R1, a KTM 1290 and say a BMW 1200GS/Sten, etc. and think very carefully what these machines are capable of performance-wise, and perhaps you'll agree that
modern bikes are far outperforming modern riders.

Electronic aids, and also how well sorted modern chassis' are, are getting riders lulled into thinking they are in control.
 

Offline stevo

Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2014, 07:32:20 am »
99,999% of the time, we fall off cause we ride like idiots. I think in nearly every case it could have been prevented by either slowing down, knowing your limit or riding / driving defensively. That doesnt mean riding like a girl (not sexist, I would like to ride like some girls who are a hell of a lot better than me), it just means there is a time and a place for everything.  :3some: :3some:
Triumph 800XC
Kawasaki 650KLR
Ducati 900 SuperSport ie.
 

Offline badseed

  • Ride the adventure
  • Race Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 709
  • KTM 990S, KTM690R , Vespa 200GT
    • www.wildwood.capetown
Re: Why are we hitting the deck?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2014, 07:48:34 am »
150kph is 150kph and no matter what bike when you hit something at speed you die. The speed of modern bikes is way beyond the capabilities of most bike owners , yet every new model offers greater performance and buyers feel compelled to 'upgrade '. Consider the contact patch of a bikes tires and the speed and weight of big bikes and it's remarkable that so few die every year. Add booze, hormones and ego and it's a miracle so few die.
Owner WildWood Motorcycle Tours South Africa