You think you ride tit? You ride shit!

[immigrant]

But if automation makes the inexperienced guy stop in the same distance that it took an experienced rider 10 times to perfect I say thank god for automation. If automation makes us safer riders then good. Stopping without ABS is a non issue if I ride a bike with it on ( except when it breaks down of course). If i do not need a skill why would i need to perfect it. I still think people  have more  money than talent

[Kneeslider]

Agreed, anything that aids in making it safer is good, my point is that we rely too much on the automation, it robs us of our judgement and decision making skills, skills that the new rider will never learn in all probability.
My point is, riding a motorcycle is 10% physical ability and 90% headspace (atttude/skills)
Anyone can shove a  motorcycle down the track, even seven year olds on their PeeWee's do it, it is the attitude/skills we are lacking.
More so now than before.

[immigrant]

Agreed, anything that aids in making it safer is good, my point is that we rely too much on the automation, it robs us of our judgement and decision making skills, skills that the new rider will never learn in all probability.
My point is, riding a motorcycle is 10% physical ability and 90% headspace (atttude/skills)
Anyone can shove a  motorcycle down the track, even seven year olds on their PeeWee's do it, it is the attitude/skills we are lacking.
More so now than before.

I agree 100% with you

[Marc D]

From my experience i know that when riding a bike without ABS, as an example, you  need to do a bit more thinking when applying brakes in an emergency situation. Ie. To prevent a lockup.

On one equipped with ABS all you need to do is pull the front brake with full force and stand on the rear brake. The bike does the rest.

The thing is getting your mindset right depending on which bike you mount.

[badseed]

A good exercise is to calculate stopping distances from different speeds on various surfaces. As the speed increases they get exponentially further. Even more scary is how far you travel at say 200km/h before you actually activate the brakes. Throw in inexperience and you'll discover it can be a huge distance before you start braking and then add the actual stopping distance .

[badseed]

My guess is that on a big dual bike at 150kp/h your reaction distance would be about 100meters and stopping distance about 250meters on dirt. Pace out 250meters and it's some distance.

Now consider seeing a road wash away or a truck in the road and how far away you need to be to avoid it. And novices think they can handle a big bike. Misguided .

[Bensien]

It is not enough to just practice braking and avoidance manoeuvres until you get them right. You have to practice them until they become reflex. In a real emergency, you don’t have time to run through a list of options and then once you decide on an action, mentally rehearse it first, like you do when practicing. You have to do the right thing right away en execute it correctly too. And you have to keep practicing. I have not pushed my limits for almost two and a half years and I find that I have lost the ability to instantly react. 

[dookie]

It is not enough to just practice braking and avoidance manoeuvres until you get them right. You have to practice them until they become reflex. In a real emergency, you don’t have time to run through a list of options and then once you decide on an action, mentally rehearse it first, like you do when practicing. You have to do the right thing right away en execute it correctly too. And you have to keep practicing. I have not pushed my limits for almost two and a half years and I find that I have lost the ability to instantly react. 

I take it your avatar photo is way more than 2 years old then?

[Bensien]

Ja, ek het niks nuut nie. Sal maar moet begin recycle

[K-9]

QUOTE “I put forward an argument that riders were loosing the skills that should be ingrained in us as second nature .....In the interest of safety and learning,,, I would like a few volunteers to do a simple braking test and post up the results, for us to debate."


We all know the results of your test before you do it.  A good to average rider will 9 times out of ten stop shorter without ABS than with ABS, on or off the tar. 

It’s easy a few runs will prove it.  BUT......  that’s a few runs were the target is to brake as quickly as possible; the first few you will mess-up until you get it right.  But you have 10 chances to get it right.

NOW answer this question how many practice runs do you get in an emergency, when say A TRACOR has done a u-turn directly in front of you.

What is ABS for:- Anti-lock braking system (ABS) is an automobile safety system that allows the wheels on a motor vehicle to maintain tractive contact with the road surface according to driver inputs while braking, preventing the wheels from locking up (ceasing rotation) and avoiding uncontrolled skidding, while keeping full control of the vehicle.

We also all know that. 

As far as I am concerned ABS is for the inexperienced rider/driver that grabs a fist full of brakes in a panic mode or for the experienced rider:-  when you have been is the saddle for hours and hours, distracted or for that unexpected diesel patch or sand on the corner, for when I am not 110% focused on stopping  (remember for the test, you will be 110% wide awake and ready and 10 chances).

That’s when you need ABS, when you are not ready to stop suddenly, when all the conditions are against you and you need all the concentration just to keep the bike up right to give the rubber a chance to stop you.

Bikes 700 and below not to critical, but for the bigger heavier bikes ABS will make a big difference in an expected emergency. 

A experienced friend of mine was killed on a superbike, (he rode into the side of a massive yellow truck) , he believed ABS was for “girls and inexperienced riders”, he ALWAYS switched ABS and traction control  off, his skid marks were measured than 120 meters - dead straight, the experts believed the speed he was going – if he had ABS on, he could of turned out of danger and not skid uncontrolled straight to his death.

ABS is here to stay and ALL bikes will have them soon.  It will never go away.
 
Shit happens to the best of us, it is a known fact you can’t be focused all the time and that is when ABS will save you.

[Omninorm]

ABS will not make you stop faster than non ABS. Traction being equal and brake force being equal...up to the exact moment before lockup both will stop in equal distance.  ABS is there to help you from locking up the wheels, on a bike, locking up the front wheel in the wet means you are going down.

At least once ABS saved me from locking up a front and avoiding an accident. There was no way or time for you to "feel for traction and modulate the brakes". Car swerved in front of me and I was carrying a pillion. I hit front and rear brakes hard in an instant. The whole thing was over in 2 seconds. I felt the ABS kicking in and i could swerve around. had I not had ABS i would have a.) Hit the car b.) dropped the front.  no doubt in my mind about that.

Whether experienced or inexperienced, sometimes you are just going too fast for the situation.

http://youtu.be/y965HcoUULQ

[volroom]

agree with everything that's been said. The idea of your stopping distance increasing exponentially is true http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/crstp.html (coefficient of friction is anything between 0 and 1 - more friction for a specific object on a specific surface if the coefficient increases towards 1), that's because energy due to motion quadruples if you double the speed - and your brakes are limited to the amount of energy it can dissipate per second - it can't dissipate 4 times the energy in the same amount of time when you double your speed.

bottom line is that speed can often be a 'killer'. On gravel and in rain, you stopping distance will be greater because coefficient of friction is smaller - on gravel it's less than on wet tar...makes you think http://hpwizard.com/tire-friction-coefficient.html

I think it's definitely worth while to practice emergency stops. I know 'think bike' members have had such opportunity in the past, why can we get together somewhere safe, with some guys that do courses that involved emergency stops, and practice together - ABS on and off. Can we do this? I'd be in

I think ABS on, in general, is better than off (on tar - if yo have ABS that works really well on gravel, than it applies on gravel as well). Newer ABS is better than older, I think.

[volroom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeo9vC4OgJA

can't believe some of these crashes...

[K-9]

The higher the speed the more critical your reaction time becomes, since you are covering a lot of metres per second.

It is important to practice your braking from a higher speed also, since I have noticed that some are scared to brake hard when at a higher speed, and would try and scrub off
a considerate amount of speed before really starting to brake. This is of course fatal, or could be.

I rode with GJ and Buff on Saturday, and while GJ was training on his roadbook, I was behind Buff practising braking late into gravelly corners. Tricky, but this is where
most lose it, overrunning corners.

2StrokeDan for a change I agree with what you said.  100% right.

I did a high speed car track course a few years back.  Reaction time at speed, it is an amazing the distance one covers before one even touches the brake AND on the course you are expecting the signal to stop, so reaction time is shorter!!.  I was shocked at the distance it takes to stop at 180.

Braking at high speed.  You see it all the time on the off road courses; for most riders it takes a few attempts before they start braking aggressively at speed.  It is one thing we all need to practice frequently, (new tyre time is a good time to play), but we need to do it every time we get out there. 
Only then will get get it right in a real emergency and save our lives.  As they say the more I practice the luckier I get.

It’s crazy......  We are happy to ride at these high speeds - but too scared to brake at these speeds, makes one think!!!

[Fuzzy Muzzy]

Sod off 

 

[Odd Dog]

You might ride like a tit,, I'm My son is a fekking genius on a bike!!

There fixed Stu.

[BikerJan]

From my experience i know that when riding a bike without ABS, as an example, you  need to do a bit more thinking when applying brakes in an emergency situation. Ie. To prevent a lockup.

On one equipped with ABS all you need to do is pull the front brake with full force and stand on the rear brake. The bike does the rest.

The thing is getting your mindset right depending on which bike you mount.

Mark, I do not agree with you. Although I am in big trouble as it seems that I will never be able to ride a bike, as I only started riding a few years ago, and not since I were an infant, according to the few courses I attended (on road as well as off road), you still need to apply the same principles when braking, whether the bike has ABS or not. You need to transfer as much weight as possible to the front tire during the braking exercise to prevent the front tyre from locking up or the ABS from kicking in. IF you merely stomp the back brake, and grabs the front brake, ABS will kick in much quicker, than when the front brake pressure is increased, allowing the weight to transfer to the front wheel, therefore your stopping distance will be much further.

[Marc D]

Jan i think this should be looked at subjectively. As i mentioned in my post i am stating my opinion from personal experience. My thinking about braking, for example, may differ from yours.

I once was behind a car which was involved in a head-on collision in front of me. I was on the GS and my reaction was to just SLAM on both brakes to avoid hitting the accident in front of me. I was confident the bike would do the rest. On the BMW Advanced Riding Course if your bike had ABS we had to practice emergency braking with it on, as would be the case under normal riding conditions. It worked and i stopped within meters of the accident.

Had i been on my Triumph without ABS i would consciously have applied both brakes but while ensuring no lock-up. I know this sounds all too good to be true but thats what goes on in my mind when i ride the Triumph. I do trackdays with it and am able to regulate a lock-up. I think differently when braking than when on the BM.

 I'm sure not all riders can do this and also know that there are riders better at this than me. Each rider is different and may react differently irrespective of the courses we do. Off road you need to be even more conscious of a lock-up, especially on the front. Alternatively you may wish the rear to lock-up around a bend and so on.

[Marc D]

Jan and to add to my post above , that's what the ABS is there to do for you and if it kicks in so what. You are probably comparing the braking distance on a bike with it switched on and then  off as per the first post.

And as kneeslider's post ,with practice you may be able to outstop yourselve with the ABS off.

[dieseldawie]

I ride a KLR so what is ABS?
As a matter of fact what are good brakes as well?