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Author Topic: Which 450 or 500?  (Read 3021 times)

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Offline MaxThePanda

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2014, 07:50:07 am »
Day 3 had a shitload of navigation, but it was turn by turn (hundreds of them) and only a couple off piste sections. Still - a lot of people got lost. For the nav to get real tricky I think you need proper dune sections (without a main track) and wide open off piste. I'm not sure we have conditions for that in SA. Namibia beckons! :)

Offline WDT

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2014, 08:08:05 am »
As for "Rally Kits". Not sure anybody needs this unless you are going to do a 10k km rally like the Dakar where wind protection is a bigger issue.

For the smaller int. rallys and the Amageza a rally lite setup is more than adequate. Ask Hentie and his 500.

Nobody needs a full rally kit for Amageza! This is a perv-fest, dream-fulfillment, rally fantasy... but is to be encouraged! Haha. The bigger fairing setups are perhaps necessary for all the extra Dakar equipment like Sentinels and ERTFs but I reckon you could still be fine on a rally lite setup.
+1000 those rally lite setups looks and goes great. You start with a light bike why add all that crap not needed for a four day event where you need a 300km range  ???

Maybe because its going the way of the Dakar? Im hoping next year will be seven days. Still quite short.

I must say the big rally fairing are becoming a thing of the past - to a point though! Look at the new KTM and Honda rally bikes. Nifty and small fairings. Was its Scooterbike who had something like that? (okay a bit smaller ;D)

The question is not whether you want wind protection or range (even the Dakar has a max range of 280km) its whether you want to be looking far down at your roadbook or not. Thats the difference between a bar mounted and a fairing mounted setup. With a fairing you have less looking down.

Also, did you ask Hentie how much navigation he actually did? Im willing to bet close to nada. (not that it takes away that brilliant performance!)

There is a reason why the top guys have fairings ontheir bikes.
 
Whether that is a reason for the rest of us to do the same is probably a moot point, already decided: It seems the Amageza bike prep is going the same way as the OZ Safari, where 95% of the bikes are bar mounted nav setups, and with very little real navigation in the actual event itself.

If you have a look at Henties time penalties, I disagree on you r statement. You cant not navigate and only get 5 min penalties.

It was one of his main concerns going in to the rally, but he took to navigation like a MX racer to a triple!
 

Offline alanB

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2014, 08:22:11 am »
Watching this discussion with great interest  :thumleft:  Especially with regard from the guys who have built up a bit of real experience in the last two events  :thumleft:

Choice of bike is obviously going to affected by:
1) Whether you are going for a competitive position or just trying to finish
2) Your budget
3) What you already have
4) Your riding style and skill set.

Personally if I was going to build a bike explicitly for the Amageza I would start from the point that there nothing wrong with a good old WR450 (simple cheap reliable, with  a few drawbacks like no 6th), although that 525 sounds nice especially having a 6th gear  (Husaberg even better), but it would boil down to what I could find and which bike felt the best to ride.

Also I would go for the bike that handled the best not te most powerful because I believe that would maximise my performance over the course of the event - you can go consistently faster through difficult stuff on a bike that handles well but is slightly under powered vs a bike that handles like a pig and is a fire breathing monster in my limited experience.

I would also go the Rally light route, keep the weight down and keep it simple.  But you do probably need some sort of cover/screen to try and provide some protection to the navigation equipment.  Maybe something in carbon fibre (ie light but strong?)

But at the end of the day, if I ever ride the Amageza again, it'll probably be on my trusty 610, because that's the bike I currently have!  :thumleft:  Its probably at the upper end of the preferred weight range - which is not ideal, but it will do fine I'm sure, the limitation is the rider - not the bike!



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Offline sidetrack

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2014, 08:41:35 am »
Watching this discussion with great interest  :thumleft:  Especially with regard from the guys who have built up a bit of real experience in the last two events  :thumleft:

Choice of bike is obviously going to affected by:
1) Whether you are going for a competitive position or just trying to finish
2) Your budget
3) What you already have
4) Your riding style and skill set.

Personally if I was going to build a bike explicitly for the Amageza I would start from the point that there nothing wrong with a good old WR450 (simple cheap reliable, with  a few drawbacks like no 6th), although that 525 sounds nice especially having a 6th gear  (Husaberg even better), but it would boil down to what I could find and which bike felt the best to ride.

Also I would go for the bike that handled the best not te most powerful because I believe that would maximise my performance over the course of the event - you can go consistently faster through difficult stuff on a bike that handles well but is slightly under powered vs a bike that handles like a pig and is a fire breathing monster in my limited experience.

I would also go the Rally light route, keep the weight down and keep it simple.  But you do probably need some sort of cover/screen to try and provide some protection to the navigation equipment.  Maybe something in carbon fibre (ie light but strong?)

But at the end of the day, if I ever ride the Amageza again, it'll probably be on my trusty 610, because that's the bike I currently have!  :thumleft:  Its probably at the upper end of the preferred weight range - which is not ideal, but it will do fine I'm sure, the limitation is the rider - not the bike!




I reckon on a R50 000 budget you can build a pretty capable and reliable Amageza bike. Clean and sound WR, CRF or 525 (R35 000-00), long range tank (R4500-00), then you have R10 000 left for some new tires and navigation equipment. Even better if you can get them second hand from someone else.
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Offline bud500

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2014, 12:47:48 pm »
It seems the Amageza bike prep is going the same way as the OZ Safari, where 95% of the bikes are bar mounted nav setups,

Not a bad thing if it does in my mind. I think the Aus Safari has proven to be quite successful, even if it is only a week long.
If the Amageza can get up to par with that I would consider it "job done and done well"  :thumleft:
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Offline Ross Riddle

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2014, 01:06:11 pm »
Afternoon,
As a complete novice to the rallye scene, rallye lites would be I think the way to go.
R50 - 60K for bike and equipment  plus another R10 - 15K for entry and the necessities is a doable budget.
It may just be time to sell the 690 and use that money to get a rally bike.
Very interested in this thread as I am very keen on  Amageza 2015. have even started warming up the wife to the idea!
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2014, 03:01:06 pm »
You have a 690, best bike for the 1st attempt, as you don't have to do maintenance on it if you do not want to.
 

Offline Cracker

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2014, 04:22:29 pm »
Extremely valid point - the less maintenance, the better.

There's enough to do without concerning yourself about a bike that's working perfectly well.

I only saw Hentie ride at the prologue and he woulda kicked anyone's arse - on any of those bikes!
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Offline Mooch

Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2014, 04:43:30 pm »
.
If in doubt, flat out.
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2014, 06:39:59 pm »
Also, did you ask Hentie how much navigation he actually did? Im willing to bet close to nada. (not that it takes away that brilliant performance!)


If you have a look at Henties time penalties, I disagree on you r statement. You cant not navigate and only get 5 min penalties.

It was one of his main concerns going in to the rally, but he took to navigation like a MX racer to a triple!

Thats intersting, thanks for the reply.
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Offline Whethefakawe

Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2014, 01:07:46 pm »
Yes, the Honda is also a great bike. Not many rally kits available for it though unfortunately.

Here is one I found listed for $11500




I wish they would make the new Factory rally bike commercially availible, I think they would sell like hot cakes. They will still be well over  R200K, so beyond the reach of most of us unfortunately. Still. Maybe next year...





Pheeew!

You can buy a brand-new last year model 450X for USD6000.......almost double the price for the "instrument panel"?

Dunno 'bout dat.......

Suspension, pipe, GPS etc......bet you could do it yerself for WAY less than $2000 extra..... :dontknow:
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Offline Whethefakawe

Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2014, 01:20:08 pm »
450 and 500 same weight. Will the 500 motor be less stressed under same riding conditions? This will result in the motor lasting longer = reliable. I may not use all the power but reliability is important for me.

Unless you're trying to run 160 all day, like a Honda XR650R will do.....because it was designed to do that, to win Baja 1000......no, not so much.

From what people who know more than I do, and have FLOGGED these two bikes, they.'re not that different if you're not the late Kurt Caselli or Fabrizio Meoni, or the current Riian van Niekerk et al.

As mentioned, the 500 is just a slightiy longer stroke 450 anyways. More low-down, and very linear power, more so than either 450.

I just changed the oil in my new 450 for the first time, and was surprised by the quantity, compared to my
older RFS 525......1.6L as opposed to .9 and a bit L in the older, BULLETPROOF RFS engine.....hmmmmm

What I'm getting at.....unless you're a Caselli,  Meoni, Van Niekerk, Coma or some unknown future star...... The cheapest one is best  :3some:
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 01:31:04 pm by Whethefakawe »
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Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2014, 01:38:27 pm »

Pheeew!

You can buy a brand-new last year model 450X for USD6000.......almost double the price for the "instrument panel"?

Dunno 'bout dat.......

Suspension, pipe, GPS etc......bet you could do it yerself for WAY less than $2000 extra..... :dontknow:

Always cheaper DIY, but off the shelf ? Quite a long list of tems if you click on the link, that I think weould cost more than 2K even if you did DIY
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Offline wolf skaap

Re: Which 450 or 500?
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2014, 03:10:24 pm »
Unless you're trying to run 160 all day, like a Honda XR650R will do.....because it was designed to do that, to win Baja 1000......no, not so much.

From what people who know more than I do, and have FLOGGED these two bikes, they.'re not that different if you're not the late Kurt Caselli or Fabrizio Meoni, or the current Riian van Niekerk et al.

As mentioned, the 500 is just a slightiy longer stroke 450 anyways. More low-down, and very linear power, more so than either 450.

I just changed the oil in my new 450 for the first time, and was surprised by the quantity, compared to my
older RFS 525......1.6L as opposed to .9 and a bit L in the older, BULLETPROOF RFS engine.....hmmmmm

What I'm getting at.....unless you're a Caselli,  Meoni, Van Niekerk, Coma or some unknown future star...... The cheapest one is best  :3some:
RFS = 1.2L
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