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Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #280 on: March 29, 2016, 04:22:33 pm »
Ok, I'll drop a bit of info about what's happening at the Rockfox lab.

History:
We were looking at safety items for rally's right from our early involvement.  This (safety) is actually a problem for all rally's except Dakar due to resources.  Dakar use Unik-2 and Sentinel to cover most (all) bases.  Other rallies use standard GSM (temp Cell towers in Europe) or the newly developed Rally Comp. Let us ignore Dakar for a moment.  All other rally orgs battle with two basic controls during a rally. 1) rider feedback for scoring and 2) safety.  Rally Comp, Etrex 10 and Spot address the rider scoring requirement.  The safety is currently not as high on the list.  :pot:  I strongly believe in the 'golden hour' for recovery.  All over the world this is a challenge.

Today:
Based on rider feedback (and simple economics) we need to look at safer rallying.  I watched quite a few video's, even simple things like overtaking can be dangerous.  If 4 wheeler's are included the risk is even bigger. (It is not really feasible to let each type run on its own route)

Future:
We started a project where a small unit (similar to the Sentinel) could be mounted on every vehicle.  Unlike Dakar the feeling is that even bikes must have a 'PTP' (Push To Pass) button to warn the Twats.  The final unit will have a 100m radio for overtake warning, an accelerometer with 'distress siren' to warn all riders in a 100m radius that the road might be obstructed. A second button can be pressed by 'FPOS' (First Person On Scene) as warning to other riders.  the final update will include a Satellite modem to send info to Race Org.  The FPOS/SOS/Recover options are already available on the Spot but will be a bit more powerful and versatile. The final component will be satellite modem to transmit info (one way) to the org.

Just thinking  :laughing4:
To include a 'racecard' option where a tablet 'talk' to the bike at the checkpoint will be just a few lines of code.  This list of 'actual' riders can then be sent via the satellite modem to the Org as well as the next checkpoint.  

Now, we are looking for a name for this creation. Guard, GuardIt, Pro-Tect
Ok, me thinks we will go with 'Pro-Tect'

Adie
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 04:30:31 pm by Weedkiller - Adie »
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Offline Ash001

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #281 on: March 29, 2016, 05:33:34 pm »
Ok this all sound wonderful but you lost me somewhere i feel like am back in the desert haha
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Offline Kamanya

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #282 on: March 29, 2016, 05:49:46 pm »
Now, we are looking for a name for this creation. Guard, GuardIt, Pro-Tect
Ok, me thinks we will go with 'Pro-Tect'

Adie

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Offline zebra - Flying Brick

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #283 on: March 29, 2016, 06:01:27 pm »
Maybe I am talking nonsense here, but won't a simple hand held bar-code scanner work? You just stick a little bar-code sticker on the rider and the bike and scan them, this will record a number of data points....
 ???
I raced Surf-Ski's for 10 years, semi-competitively, and we were bar-code scanned in at GROUP starts, and then scanned in at the INDIVIDUAL finish...

It worked VERY well, basic results (there were very few 'penalties' in surf-skiing - since it took 30 minutes to reach a turn-bouy - we made f@cking sure we went AROUND it...!) wer ethen more-or-less immediately available, in our case we got a waterproof sticker to attach to the boat, and another one to the paddle, it really worked very well.

Just my 5c.

It was also used in multiple-point racing, such as the Cape Point CHallenge, where half-way around the Point you had to beach, run around a pole, compulsory 5 minute safety stop, etc, and we were scanned IN to the beach, and then OUT of the beach, etc...
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Offline gser

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #284 on: March 29, 2016, 06:26:45 pm »
It's good to hear a lot of positive comments !
We thoroughly enjoyed the race ! although it was from a marshaling viewpoint.
 

Offline Rynet

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #285 on: March 29, 2016, 07:56:05 pm »
Hi Guys you must read the lekker Baja RR by GG on his Blog called THE g-Spot .

He has a RR under Ride Reports but it is much more enjoyable reading it on his Blog :

http://www.ggalcock.co.za/2016/the-race-of-halfmensbome-malmokkies-malmense/


http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=190185.0 ( but rather read the Blog )

GG I love this part , it makes me feel like riding !~ :ricky:

"Vertical climbs test our climbing ability and worse on the other side dizzying descents consisting of loose marbles of stone wash away our front tyres. Gavin flies over his handlebars, smashing his peak, he remembers suddenly as he shakes his head to clear it that he should film this. The video is like a rocky vertigo inducing extreme game.  I crash twice once bending my rear brake so I can’t reach it, the same one I need so desperately to control my slipping sliding fall down the cliff face Alex has chosen as a track.   Never has such beauty and such harshness combined to test my endurance.  I stop, take pictures, the raw savage beauty is breath-taking, it fills my senses, it surrounds me in 360 degree splendour, I savour it fearing though the next corner, the next climb, the rocks trying to rip me and my KTM to shreds"

He has some good photos too, like the one below of the mountain trail.  :thumleft:
 

Offline Rynet

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #286 on: March 29, 2016, 08:01:25 pm »
......
What about using SPOT?

Every rider has one, it uses satellite and can send messages...

I used mine at times to let my wife know I am still sort of OK, even if it was not always technically true...



 :imaposer: 
hehe that made me laugh GK , your wife was the last to know about your tumble even though she was at the event , you are such a gentleman.  
 

Offline Geel Kat

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #287 on: March 29, 2016, 08:17:38 pm »
......
What about using SPOT?

Every rider has one, it uses satellite and can send messages...

I used mine at times to let my wife know I am still sort of OK, even if it was not always technically true...



 :imaposer: 
hehe that made me laugh GK , your wife was the last to know about your tumble even though she was at the event , you are such a gentleman.  

 :imaposer: you joke but is is also important.

There is no point in informing people who will only worry but can do nothing at the time.

in order of importance of notification:
- Recovery crew
- Medics (if not part of the recovery crew)
- Curios people who want to know about "events" but do not really care all that much
- People who care but can do nothing to solve the problem at the time, in most cases family

Please read some of this tongue in cheek and some seriously ;)
 

Offline Ash001

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #288 on: March 29, 2016, 08:31:53 pm »
GG awesome words bud gave me goosies, makes me want to do it again.
When in doubt,, throttle out.
 

Offline Rynet

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #289 on: March 29, 2016, 08:35:07 pm »
......
What about using SPOT?

Every rider has one, it uses satellite and can send messages...

I used mine at times to let my wife know I am still sort of OK, even if it was not always technically true...



 :imaposer: 
hehe that made me laugh GK , your wife was the last to know about your tumble even though she was at the event , you are such a gentleman.  

 :imaposer: you joke but is is also important.

There is no point in informing people who will only worry but can do nothing at the time.

in order of importance of notification:
- Recovery crew
- Medics (if not part of the recovery crew)
- Curios people who want to know about "events" but do not really care all that much
- People who care but can do nothing to solve the problem at the time, in most cases family

Please read some of this tongue in cheek and some seriously ;)

Yes . Agreed. I laughed because it is so true . My mom still to this day doesn't know about some of my accidents . :biggrin:

But yes it is tricky .  That is the part I like least about marshalling, the time lapse between a SOS and finding the rider .
I still shudder when I think of 2013 , the delay in finding the guys, at least now with the trackers we know where the riders are when the SOS goes off , but yes good to keep it under wraps till we know what the real situation is .  :thumleft:


 
 

Offline Ash001

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #290 on: March 29, 2016, 08:38:52 pm »
I keep forgetting to post this. thanks again for an awesome event and allowing us to help others
When in doubt,, throttle out.
 

Offline Geel Kat

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #291 on: March 29, 2016, 08:39:45 pm »
I keep forgetting to post this. thanks again for an awesome event and allowing us to help others

Awesome Ash  :thumleft:

What is your target to raise for Amageza?

 :pot:
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #292 on: March 29, 2016, 09:31:46 pm »
There are some really good ideas in this thread, many of them linked to one another :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:

Sean: Thanks you answered my question very well. I asked because as a rider I am never prepared to leave, and the 30 seconds 20s 10s and 5,4,3,2,1 helped me a lot to get into my groove.  ::)  I suppose its no biggie really, but I will tell you that if you get pro international riders in, they will all too soon be whining about the 15-45 s differences by not counting down to the applicable minute/half minute. Imagine the race comes down to a minute or two difference between the front runners after 6-7 stages? Would it be fair or unfair on riders if the times on the cards are not accurate? If you look at Dakar footage you will see that especially for the front 30 guys there is quite flurry at the finish as the officials get the right times on the cards for groups of riders coming in. The way they do this is use a laser beam which clocks the times which are then written into the cards of the guys coming in the order of their arrival. At the start,  I think you and Rynette must have been like a well oiled machine after little while so would not think it be too difficult for her to write the times with you knowing it is at the top of that minute that you send the next group away? This should not delay anything really. Maybe I beating a dead horse but thought I would put it out there for consideration.  BTW it is so awesome to see your spirit and comradeship at the start.  :thumleft: The guys might not have said anything to you but they would have really appreciated your kind words and friendly pats on the shoulders. Actually this goes for most of the officials.

Steve: AFAIK the Dakar and many other rallies still use manual time cards because they can be written on and are an excellent record...especially when there is a rider protest or an issue when the electronic systems go down. We all know that the iritrack is dubious at best and this is the worlds biggest rally! The wristbands with electronics were used for bivouac access to stop guys like me were faking wristbands in 2012 and sneaking into Dakar bivoaucs as VIP's when we actually weren't allowed to! ;D The little chips they use in extreme enduros like Ertzberg and Romaniacs are great but all they do is clock a rider number through, and not for timing purposes. Sometimes these "clockers" fail too - ask Graham Jarvis! ;D

I would suggest you stick with the manual time cards rather than readers etc, because they are fail-safe like paper road books, if you lose yours, its a 2 hour penalty, and if the guys dont stop at a PC like a major road crossing (where they must stop and be stamped to show they have stopped) they can be nailed and the proof is (not) there stamped on the card, easy to see...no black box and easy to manage by the PCO. Or if a rider has an altercation with an official or does something dangerous say at the ASS (these things hopefully wont happen on the Amageza, but they do happen from time to time elsewhere!) , the official can easily make a remark or correction on any card for when the rider arrives at the bivvy. I say keep it manual and empower your officials going Amageza in the sun... :peepwall:


Crossed up:
I also noticed the guys riding off course in the pics and agree to a point, but to be fair most of the pics of the tracks everywhere seemed to be  at that big dune (I think)? The idea of tightening the tracking will slow down the rally tremendously which -to me- would be counterproductive to the idea of racing. I am fully behind Andrew's comments as well BTW. Perhaps a happy medium can be made, because the biggest issues are normally at forks, where guys cross the shortcut through the bush. This could be reduced by having a 10m diameter bubble off the centerline provided it does not apply in areas where there are pans or other HP sections. Better still would be to include a note in the Road books in zones of environmentally sensitive areas are where guys going off the track in those areas could be heavily penalized against a smaller bubble.  This has been used by the ASO on their rallies in the past in selected sensitive areas, some parks etc. Also what happens on the HP (off piste) sections? This would surely not be practical as I might ride a different part of the same riverbed with no impact on the environment to speak of. Hopefully there will be lots of HP in the Amageza (Alexander plse take note :deal).  

Adie/organizers: I must say Adie your contribution to this sport in RSA is totally awesome - thank you! :notworthy:
One small issue with the use of an automatic proximity alarm: Every time anyone is near to anyone else you would have the damn alarm going off. Not great when you are riding in a group. I would suggest there be an option for a rider to warn a guy manually in front by pushing a button if he really needs to. The dangers associated with passing cannot be replaced by something like this, but it would help when a side-by-side needs to pass or be passed for example. (Having said that I saw in some of the video footage that those guys were fantastic in pulling over when they heard a bike behind them).

Then there is the case of a bike being down behind a dune or something out of sight, the rider has the option to manually activate/deactivate a 100m "chime" bubble if he is worried about someone running over him.  Maybe have two different sounds for each case. Having raced with cars and trucks in the past, I can tell you its a very shit thing to have your sentinel alarm go off and think there is a 10t monster bearing down on you, risk your neck riding into the bushes to get out of the way, only to find its not a truck but some guy in the track ahead of you. The vice versa case is even worse.

But consider the safety aspect if, knowing you have taken the wrong track and are back tracking the course to find the right track, you can activate the signal, warning the next guy coming along from riding head on into you at race pace. This I think would be a brilliant feature that could save lives. It would also save the environment, because if I realize I am wrong and have to back track, there is no way I will be riding in the track for fear of someone like Andrew or Peter (if i were so lucky to be in front of them  :P ) coming along at race pace, not at all expecting anyone to be coming back into the opposite direction. We saw this happen on the Baja a couple of times when a couple of guys went the wrong way into the loop...thank goodness it was in a technical section. In this case I would always take the penalty rather than have a head on, but with a "safety bubble" around me I would be more confident to correct my error by back tracking on the course.

Geel Kat: The spot is a great tool but sometimes they fail too. Must admit it would be great to be able to text a word or two anyway to followers, family, supporters and organization; I just don't think they should replace the manual time card advantages discussed above.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 09:34:31 pm by BlueBull2007 »
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Offline SteveD

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #293 on: March 29, 2016, 11:15:36 pm »
Wise words, as usual.
I didn't know the Dakar RFID wristbands were for bivvy access. I may have a business idea regarding the cloning and selling of wristbands......  >:D
In the meantime, I will get printing on the Amageza 2016 manual timecards. As you say, paper doesn't fail, for roadbooks, timecards and, hopefully, toilets.  :pottytrain5:

Watch the Baja website tomorrow   :lamer:
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #294 on: March 29, 2016, 11:34:16 pm »
:thumleft: Steve re toilets: you should have seen the riders on the Dakar. Get to the DSS early. Ride 1km into the desert past the crowds at race pace.. Yank down pants really fast and take a tactical dump. Baby swipe, baby oil and baby powder, pants up lets go, before the photographers get there!

There is even a photo of Cyril Despres in the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon position on the internet waves somewhere. :laughing7:

Also on liaisons. We used to chase competitors and ride with them. So you're riding along, following the competitors on a liaison in the middle of nowhere. As you go past some big boulders moved by the construction you almost lose it as the guy in front of you ducks off towards them...You start to follow and then you realize "Oh, shit"..I mean "Oh he's taking a shit"

:imaposer:

Unless you are one of the 1st guys in the bivouac, the Dakar toilets were totally MANK. :puke:

« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 11:37:34 pm by BlueBull2007 »
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Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #295 on: March 29, 2016, 11:56:28 pm »
There are some really good ideas in this thread, many of them linked to one another :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:

Adie/organizers: I must say Adie your contribution to this sport in RSA is totally awesome - thank you! :notworthy:
One small issue with the use of an automatic proximity alarm: Every time anyone is near to anyone else you would have the damn alarm going off.

Hi BB
No, the basic functionality is along the same lines as the Sentinel. At this stage we are gathering info on functionality etc. etc.

1. Press button to indicate intention to pass. Alarm on competitors within a pre-determined range vehicle will go off.  As far as I remember sentinel is 200m.  There are still a lot of detail to sort out like must the alarm be stopped or sound for a few seconds.  The Sentinel 'blare' at 100dB.  As the unit is not directional even riders behind will get the signal.  We did a few tests and think the radius could be down to 60meters but st that distance the dust from a Twat or SbyS could already be blinding/dangerous.  Also, just looking at stats the PtP button might not be that much of a distraction as it will (should) only be used for 'safer passing'.   Will there be racers that will misuse the system to gain an advantage (momentarily unsettle) on a rider in front (just to get out of the dust) ?. I think so, but there are nothing one can do about that minority.  The safety of the majority is the aim.  Also, looking at an average of 70 riders in the event, how many times will the PtP button be pressed before the spread of fast to slow is 'normalized'. At the start of the stage it will be hectic as the riders start in 2x2min groups.  After 20 odd km everything settle and overtaking is much less but this is where the concentration is lower (tired) and accidents happens more frequently.

2. The acceleromiter will kick in at a predetermined G. (I am still looking for someone to test fall  :laughing4: so we can get some reference.  The 'accident' alarm will sound different form the overtake one.  This option could also be manually activated if stuck on the 'other side' of the dune. Seen quite a few of those accidents in Dakar over the years.

A lot of detail still need to be sorted like duration of alarm, warning radius etc etc.  We plan a micro 'stick on' button for the bikes to make the PtP more accessible and less restrictive to use.

3. The satellite modem. This part is probably the most expensive (and tricky) part of the unit.  We will basically use the same GPS and Modem as in the Spot tracker as it already gone through ICASA registration.  The cost per SMS is unfortunately much higher than the Spot. (don't ask me why) so it will not be feasible to replace the Spot.  Messages to Ops etc will thus be emergency only and we do not see it as a replacement of the Spot for tracking.  It will just be possible to select a more specific message from a list.

4. We do not propose replacing the paper Time cards (I am a firm believer in 'paperwork')  It just came apparent that the system can log the rider passing a (manned) CP and pass that info to Org for better control.  Currently (again) a person must use a paper to record the riders, this is then manually correlated against the starting grid.  Due to lack of GSM signal the next CP must wait semi blind as they do not know 'who what where'.  Due to the 'loop' layout of WC Baja the Org could fly the route without to much issues and 'kyk na die laat lammers'.  This is gonna be a totally different issue if the route is not/less loopy.  Again it is more of a safety issue than control.

Lastly, at this stage this project is not 'underwritten' by the Amageza Org.  It is just something that is very close to my heart and with the Dakar qualifier status, 4 wheelers etc quite a few things will have to be considered.  (That also inspired the Rally Comp etc etc.)

******* MODS, MAYBE THIS MUST BECOME A NEW STICKY THREAD UNDER RACING *****

Kamanya, sorry for the hijack.

Adie
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Offline Malibu

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #296 on: March 30, 2016, 08:13:33 am »
Marks pics...
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 08:17:34 am by Malibu »
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Offline Malibu

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #297 on: March 30, 2016, 08:20:14 am »
nog...
They call me Judy or Judes...

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Offline Malibu

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #298 on: March 30, 2016, 08:23:21 am »
more...
They call me Judy or Judes...

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Offline Malibu

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #299 on: March 30, 2016, 08:25:09 am »
and...
They call me Judy or Judes...

You need chaos in your soul to birth a shining star!