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Offline Prop

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #340 on: March 31, 2016, 08:42:58 pm »
Adie I think Martin is right as I also recall Alex saying that the DSP on day 2 was a neutral zone I also lost time due to this as I split my road book in 3 and wasted time. :xxbah:

I agree,  my interpretation was that it was a neutral zone,  Alex referred to it as "CH" (if I remember correctly, not entirely sure what that meant in rallye terms).

Well in my case that made a difference between 2 nd and 3 rd in the restricted lite.

Overall great event,  well done to all who made it happen.

One observation from the lite class,  you couldn't see the caution symbols and speed points ( think i got the 2 nd most violations on speeding), but the most scary was almost riding through a triple caution at fiull taps, I'm generally an over cautious rider,  but the terrain leading up to that caution was just awesome,  and there was nothing in the terrain that would fore warn you that there was a2 meter wide eroded donga, half a meter deep.  Somehow managed to save it...
it was about 200k'sinto day 2, one of the road book chaps mentioned that there was a fish hook symbol,  meaning you had to divert  the caution.
If the GPS symbols can be fixed,  I think  there will be allot more lite riders,  which in turn will mean more amageza riders in the future.

Thanks again to all those that made it possible.
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #341 on: March 31, 2016, 08:46:18 pm »
I guess rules are rules and talking about the other way around , can you explain how 2 riders that did the route the wrong way around are still in the results ?Funny that !!

Page 18 of the Regulations : Driving ( on the course) in the opposite direction to that of the official route carries a 10 minute penalty and at the discretion of the races stewards can be increased or lead to a disqualification .


It was taken into consideration that the cause of the mountain loop being ridden the wrong way was the the GPS lite system which did not show that the rider was riding the route the wrong way and no clear marker at the split .
 The real losers are the 4 guys that rode the route the wrong way  , not the other riders.

By the time they discovered it they were too far in and fuel would have been an issue if they turned back . The 4 riders were the ones who gave way and pulled right off the tracks when the other riders approached . Despite that , and despite going some distance extra, and riding the route the more difficult way , through no fault of their own , they were actually the ones who suffered more than the other riders. They carried the penalties and the heart ache of riding so well and being pushed down the list of finishers.

It is unfortunate, but the issue had to be sorted before prize giving . I think it was a good call by Alex taking all the factors in consideration and giving a 30 minute penalty .

My 10c worth....

these guys DID NOT pull over and get off the track as mentioned above.  That's from 3 of us that did the loop the correct way....there is also a video that has been uploaded elsewhere on this forum(not by me) that also clearly shows no effort to move aside.. Go find it and judge for yourself...  Law of averages dictate whether the route was accurately marked/plotted or not, how come the majority did not make this obvious error?

To say that the gps track didn't indicate the direction of travel is bollocks. When I stopped at the DSP, I saw that the routes shared a common road, so I did the obvious and logical thing...stop, zoomed in and checked the numbering of the waypoints, yes they were CLEARLY numbered, i.e. 93 94 95 etc.  so I followed the obvious, correct and safe route.  Why would I go from point 93 to 284 and proceed backwards to 283, 282 etc.  If, and only if, some serious mishap had happened, i.e. A head on collision, then all of this debate would become a more serious issue and we would not be bantering on about 30 mins here and there. We can go on about whether it was more difficult or not, the point is that they did a 90km section of the route incorrectly.  I don't believe that the 10 minute penalty is designed for a 90km error, but rather a minor deviation.  To suggest that the guys doing the route the wrong way around are the losers is ludicrous?  They simply did not follow the route. The essence of rally riding in my opinion is the ability to go fast and safe while navigating ACCURATELY. So would your argument be that if the route was easier the other way around they should get a bigger penalty?  What about the rest of the riders who suddenly felt the anxiety of potentially coming across more competitors racing in the wrong direction, thus slowing down to potentially avoid a life threatening situation? Shouldn't we be given some time to compensate for easing off?

I have had my fair share of protests and decision making being an organizer and MSA Steward/COC in the past, it is a thankless task.  My money would have been on disqualification. I think Alex took the soft decision. If it was me having gone the wrong way, I would have expected nothing less than a disqualification.  First rule of Motorsport is safety of ALL competitors and spectators.  Bottom line is that it was downright dangerous, caused by an error of navigation, NOT the organizers fault.

My overall experience of the event was great, I would do it again in a flash.... The privilege of riding in that area is priceless... But next time I see somebody going in wrong direction, I will make damn sure that my protest money is ready....
Apologies, that 10c turned into 50c...


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Offline Striggs

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #342 on: March 31, 2016, 09:15:15 pm »
I guess rules are rules and talking about the other way around , can you explain how 2 riders that did the route the wrong way around are still in the results ?Funny that !!

Page 18 of the Regulations : Driving ( on the course) in the opposite direction to that of the official route carries a 10 minute penalty and at the discretion of the races stewards can be increased or lead to a disqualification .


It was taken into consideration that the cause of the mountain loop being ridden the wrong way was the the GPS lite system which did not show that the rider was riding the route the wrong way and no clear marker at the split .
 The real losers are the 4 guys that rode the route the wrong way  , not the other riders.

By the time they discovered it they were too far in and fuel would have been an issue if they turned back . The 4 riders were the ones who gave way and pulled right off the tracks when the other riders approached . Despite that , and despite going some distance extra, and riding the route the more difficult way , through no fault of their own , they were actually the ones who suffered more than the other riders. They carried the penalties and the heart ache of riding so well and being pushed down the list of finishers.

It is unfortunate, but the issue had to be sorted before prize giving . I think it was a good call by Alex taking all the factors in consideration and giving a 30 minute penalty .

My 10c worth....

these guys DID NOT pull over and get off the track as mentioned above.  That's from 3 of us that did the loop the correct way....there is also a video that has been uploaded elsewhere on this forum(not by me) that also clearly shows no effort to move aside.. Go find it and judge for yourself...  Law of averages dictate whether the route was accurately marked/plotted or not, how come the majority did not make this obvious error?

To say that the gps track didn't indicate the direction of travel is bollocks. When I stopped at the DSP, I saw that the routes shared a common road, so I did the obvious and logical thing...stop, zoomed in and checked the numbering of the waypoints, yes they were CLEARLY numbered, i.e. 93 94 95 etc.  so I followed the obvious, correct and safe route.  Why would I go from point 93 to 284 and proceed backwards to 283, 282 etc.  If, and only if, some serious mishap had happened, i.e. A head on collision, then all of this debate would become a more serious issue and we would not be bantering on about 30 mins here and there. We can go on about whether it was more difficult or not, the point is that they did a 90km section of the route incorrectly.  I don't believe that the 10 minute penalty is designed for a 90km error, but rather a minor deviation.  To suggest that the guys doing the route the wrong way around are the losers is ludicrous?  They simply did not follow the route. The essence of rally riding in my opinion is the ability to go fast and safe while navigating ACCURATELY. So would your argument be that if the route was easier the other way around they should get a bigger penalty?  What about the rest of the riders who suddenly felt the anxiety of potentially coming across more competitors racing in the wrong direction, thus slowing down to potentially avoid a life threatening situation? Shouldn't we be given some time to compensate for easing off?

I have had my fair share of protests and decision making being an organizer and MSA Steward/COC in the past, it is a thankless task.  My money would have been on disqualification. I think Alex took the soft decision. If it was me having gone the wrong way, I would have expected nothing less than a disqualification.  First rule of Motorsport is safety of ALL competitors and spectators.  Bottom line is that it was downright dangerous, caused by an error of navigation, NOT the organizers fault.

My overall experience of the event was great, I would do it again in a flash.... The privilege of riding in that area is priceless... But next time I see somebody going in wrong direction, I will make damn sure that my protest money is ready....
Apologies, that 10c turned into 50c...


Rallying is not really a sterile sport.  It is also not for everybody.

 :lol8: sterile...  :imaposer: who's suggesting it should be? you have missed my point completely. I was also there to compete, knowing, considering and experiencing all the non sterile events that occur from start to finish.  It's a risky and tough sport and if you think I was there site seeing, you are wrong, I had the next best time after Gavin(excellent rider) on day 2. You are right, it isn't for everybody, but we should all be heading in the same direction at least, literally and figuratively..  :ricky:
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Offline luckyloo

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #343 on: March 31, 2016, 10:55:41 pm »
Adie I think Martin is right as I also recall Alex saying that the DSP on day 2 was a neutral zone I also lost time due to this as I split my road book in 3 and wasted time. :xxbah:



I agree,  my interpretation was that it was a neutral zone,  Alex referred to it as "CH" (if I remember correctly, not entirely sure what that meant in rallye terms).

Well in my case that made a difference between 2 nd and 3 rd in the restricted lite.

Overall great event,  well done to all who made it happen.

One observation from the lite class,  you couldn't see the caution symbols and speed points ( think i got the 2 nd most violations on speeding), but the most scary was almost riding through a triple caution at fiull taps, I'm generally an over cautious rider,  but the terrain leading up to that caution was just awesome,  and there was nothing in the terrain that would fore warn you that there was a2 meter wide eroded donga, half a meter deep.  Somehow managed to save it...
it was about 200k'sinto day 2, one of the road book chaps mentioned that there was a fish hook symbol,  meaning you had to divert  the caution.
If the GPS symbols can be fixed,  I think  there will be allot more lite riders,  which in turn will mean more amageza riders in the future.

Thanks again to all those that made it possible.

It's a no brainer.  I asked at riders briefing if it was neutralised I.o.w. no timed zone for day 2 because day 1 this was only not timed for lite classes.  The answer from Alex was its not timed but keep in mind if you waste too much time in DSP you can still be time barred.  It is also obvious because the day's stage was more than the specified fuel range for rally classes so they had to provide a fuel zone. This is the reason why myself and some others sent their teams out on that shirty road because it was a service point.    This influences everybody's results so according to me there is not a fair result on this event. Furthermore I feel that by not having had access to stage 2 results prior to final results being posted, there wasn't  a fair chance to protest the results.   My 2c not happy. ..
 

Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #344 on: April 01, 2016, 10:09:30 am »
Adie I think Martin is right as I also recall Alex saying that the DSP on day 2 was a neutral zone I also lost time due to this as I split my road book in 3 and wasted time. :xxbah:



I agree,  my interpretation was that it was a neutral zone,  Alex referred to it as "CH" (if I remember correctly, not entirely sure what that meant in rallye terms).

Well in my case that made a difference between 2 nd and 3 rd in the restricted lite.

Overall great event,  well done to all who made it happen.

One observation from the lite class,  you couldn't see the caution symbols and speed points ( think i got the 2 nd most violations on speeding), but the most scary was almost riding through a triple caution at fiull taps, I'm generally an over cautious rider,  but the terrain leading up to that caution was just awesome,  and there was nothing in the terrain that would fore warn you that there was a2 meter wide eroded donga, half a meter deep.  Somehow managed to save it...
it was about 200k'sinto day 2, one of the road book chaps mentioned that there was a fish hook symbol,  meaning you had to divert  the caution.
If the GPS symbols can be fixed,  I think  there will be allot more lite riders,  which in turn will mean more amageza riders in the future.

Thanks again to all those that made it possible.

It's a no brainer.  I asked at riders briefing if it was neutralised I.o.w. no timed zone for day 2 because day 1 this was only not timed for lite classes.  The answer from Alex was its not timed but keep in mind if you waste too much time in DSP you can still be time barred.  It is also obvious because the day's stage was more than the specified fuel range for rally classes so they had to provide a fuel zone. This is the reason why myself and some others sent their teams out on that shirty road because it was a service point.    This influences everybody's results so according to me there is not a fair result on this event. Furthermore I feel that by not having had access to stage 2 results prior to final results being posted, there wasn't  a fair chance to protest the results.   My 2c not happy. ..

Yes it does seem that whether the fuel stop on day 2 was neutralised or not , caught a few people out , so it does seem to have been not as clear as it could be.

The results was already mentioned on this thread as having been an issue, and should be sorted by Amageza time.

The Baja was a test run for Amageza , a testing-the-waters, a fun-run , yes for the riders the results were important , but Amageza is the big event . Everything learnt at Baja will be taken into consideration by Alex and where possible and reasonable , will be improved .

 

Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #345 on: April 01, 2016, 10:19:42 am »
I guess rules are rules and talking about the other way around , can you explain how 2 riders that did the route the wrong way around are still in the results ?Funny that !!

Page 18 of the Regulations : Driving ( on the course) in the opposite direction to that of the official route carries a 10 minute penalty and at the discretion of the races stewards can be increased or lead to a disqualification .


It was taken into consideration that the cause of the mountain loop being ridden the wrong way was the the GPS lite system which did not show that the rider was riding the route the wrong way and no clear marker at the split .
 The real losers are the 4 guys that rode the route the wrong way  , not the other riders.

By the time they discovered it they were too far in and fuel would have been an issue if they turned back . The 4 riders were the ones who gave way and pulled right off the tracks when the other riders approached . Despite that , and despite going some distance extra, and riding the route the more difficult way , through no fault of their own , they were actually the ones who suffered more than the other riders. They carried the penalties and the heart ache of riding so well and being pushed down the list of finishers.

It is unfortunate, but the issue had to be sorted before prize giving . I think it was a good call by Alex taking all the factors in consideration and giving a 30 minute penalty .

My 10c worth....

these guys DID NOT pull over and get off the track as mentioned above.  That's from 3 of us that did the loop the correct way....there is also a video that has been uploaded elsewhere on this forum(not by me) that also clearly shows no effort to move aside.. Go find it and judge for yourself...  Law of averages dictate whether the route was accurately marked/plotted or not, how come the majority did not make this obvious error?

To say that the gps track didn't indicate the direction of travel is bollocks. When I stopped at the DSP, I saw that the routes shared a common road, so I did the obvious and logical thing...stop, zoomed in and checked the numbering of the waypoints, yes they were CLEARLY numbered, i.e. 93 94 95 etc.  so I followed the obvious, correct and safe route.  Why would I go from point 93 to 284 and proceed backwards to 283, 282 etc.  If, and only if, some serious mishap had happened, i.e. A head on collision, then all of this debate would become a more serious issue and we would not be bantering on about 30 mins here and there. We can go on about whether it was more difficult or not, the point is that they did a 90km section of the route incorrectly.  I don't believe that the 10 minute penalty is designed for a 90km error, but rather a minor deviation.  To suggest that the guys doing the route the wrong way around are the losers is ludicrous?  They simply did not follow the route. The essence of rally riding in my opinion is the ability to go fast and safe while navigating ACCURATELY. So would your argument be that if the route was easier the other way around they should get a bigger penalty?  What about the rest of the riders who suddenly felt the anxiety of potentially coming across more competitors racing in the wrong direction, thus slowing down to potentially avoid a life threatening situation? Shouldn't we be given some time to compensate for easing off?

I have had my fair share of protests and decision making being an organizer and MSA Steward/COC in the past, it is a thankless task.  My money would have been on disqualification. I think Alex took the soft decision. If it was me having gone the wrong way, I would have expected nothing less than a disqualification.  First rule of Motorsport is safety of ALL competitors and spectators.  Bottom line is that it was downright dangerous, caused by an error of navigation, NOT the organizers fault.

My overall experience of the event was great, I would do it again in a flash.... The privilege of riding in that area is priceless... But next time I see somebody going in wrong direction, I will make damn sure that my protest money is ready....
Apologies, that 10c turned into 50c...

Thank you for your input Striggs. I have no idea who you are , can you please ID yourself? If not here , then with a pm please , thanks !

I sat in the meeting with Alex and John and three of the riders and I had spoken to the 4th rider Gideon before he had to leave as well as after the meeting by telephone , so we had information that others did not have .

Some points –mine – not the organisation’s  ,I cannot speak for Alex or Amageza / Baja , this is in my personal capacity .

The Law of averages. I do not think that is relevant  . The 4 riders were the front runners . There were no tracks whatsoever to show them the way.  Roger Kane –Berman- an experienced rider and navigator , he went on to win the race- also made the same error as these 4 and he and rode for 15km in the wrong way before his Road Book showed him wrong . He told this to me in person.  That shows that it was an easy mistake to make at the time of entering the loop.  The lite guys did not have a Road book so once on the route they would simply follow the lines on the GPS . They would not , like Roger , come across anything on a Road book to indicate that they were wrong, until they met the first riders.  When they met the first riders they did not know who was wrong ,and by the time they saw more guys fuel would have been a problem if they turned around.

You say that you were an organiser and MSA Steward/COC in the past  . You are therefore experienced with Rallies and navigation and you cleverly found out how to use the Rally lite system to it’s full potential . Well done . But , the Rally lite system was not designed for someone experienced like you. It was designed for the first time Rally entrant to help them to ride the route easily , to not worry about navigation, but to focus on the ride.  For those purposes, it clearly did not work.

From what you say you found it necessary at that point to double check . Thank you, you are therefore confirming that there was a potential for error which adds weight to the 4 rider’s argument that it was an easy mistake to make.  You have also given valuable information on how to make the Rally Lite system more user friendly next year, if Alex uses it again .  :thumleft:

The Baja was a test run for the Amageza to see what issues will come up and could be dealt with .

Edit : Alex just told me the Rally Lite system was a failure and would not be used again .

For the riders further down the field ,  if you were going the right route , so were the riders with you or who followed you or your tracks or other people’s tracks .

Safety and Penalty given  :  I don’t know who the rider was on that video , if that was at the start of the loop then it surely couldn’t have been these 4 riders ? Maybe Roger coming back?

It is one transgression , one continuous transgression not a lot of little ones.  Yes 30 minutes is fairly lenient from your point , it could have been an hour ,but all factors were taken into consideration such as that the Rally lite system did not work to make things easier as it was supposed to .  For that reason disqualification was unnecessary and would have been too harsh.

Yes of course riding the route the wrong way is a security risk but in reality no one did get hurt , it was a very technical section and for most of it the riders were riding slowly, reducing the risk.

No real emotional harm would have befallen the other riders except the few minutes of overtaking and mostly the wrong way 4 made way. The real pain would have been the wrong way 4 as they would have had the pain of riding the rest of the route knowing it was wrong and not knowing the outcome . Their qualification into Amageza would have been affected and their placings .

I understand your frustration as you clearly did the right thing. It is difficult to please everybody and find a middle way .



 

Offline Kamanya

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #346 on: April 01, 2016, 11:52:18 am »
I’ve had some thoughts on the temperature in this thread and the slight "off piste" direction it has taken. I think its good overall though.

A part of the underlying tension around all this is fairness.

Racers will suffer incredible hardships and deadly risks, so long as it is the same for all. Even for people who have no hope of getting a top 10, so long as the “rules” were applied to all, then it is alright. Where there is perceived unfairness, this is very hard to reconcile.

Because rally is such a complex event, it sets up a more subtle and complex competition too. I know from personal experience that so long as I stayed within the rules but as close to the edge as I could come, I could still proudly claim my medal.

It does set me up for some challenge though, when I overstepped the rules and was penalised, I would feel in some instances that this was fair, but in others not. For those that I didn’t feel were fair or overly harsh, I was mightily aggrieved.


As a person on the marshalling side of the Rally, it creates too, a difficult dynamic. They will want to be above reproach and completely true to the integrity of the event and it’s rules. However, there is always interpretation and of course having to deal with the personal drama in high stress moments, little info or time and trying conditions and no reward. And very few get to see that in action or appreciate that little contest of its own.

It is then understandable that these two sides of the race will have dynamic. Both sides acutely aware of fairness and trying their utmost best.

Racing brings out the best and worst in people. They will come up to levels they themselves never thought possible, but at the same time in this test, sometimes behave in ways that they would later regret or worse, not have any qualms about.

A post-mortem done in a high atmosphere of wanting to improve the brand and experience is helpful. Of course people will have vastly differing thoughts and opinions, some even divisive and conflicting. As you know, it is very easy to get into defending something that was done in the right spirit but seen wrong in the eye of others.

I like this quote:

“Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge… is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound purpose larger than the self-kind of understanding.”
 ― Bill Bullard

I can’t say that I always live up to it.

Long live Rally!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 02:03:29 pm by Kamanya »
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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #347 on: April 01, 2016, 11:59:35 am »
Great Post Andrew, and something that I could learn from :thumleft:
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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #348 on: April 01, 2016, 12:14:56 pm »
Everyone off the course.
Last guys



Kevin made it! (at 60 nog al!) Great Effort!



Long day for this side by side, did a lot of sight seeing







No.42 = Jason Manley
 

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #349 on: April 01, 2016, 12:35:33 pm »
Nice post Andrew, agreed, sometimes we have to just step back and realize others around us and their ideas & opinions, and if you can do that, then you also realize it is not always about oneself and your own needs.

Melvman - Kevin is truly a legend, to be doing this hardcore type (and it is) of racing at 60, is just extraordinary.   :thumleft:
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Offline SteveD

Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #350 on: April 01, 2016, 08:28:08 pm »
Melvman - Kevin is truly a legend, to be doing this hardcore type (and it is) of racing at 60, is just extraordinary.



The other oke in the picture, rider 42, I think that is Melvman's kid.
He entered Amageza last year on a 690. The engine seized about 500km into the first day, which very much ended his race.

He rebuilt the motor completely, but it would lose power when it got hot. Nobody could figure out why...

Very shortly before Baja, he gave up on the 690, bought a 450 and started modifying it for rallye. The fuel tank came out of customs I think two days before the start, and he finished the build the night before he had to leave.

When he got there, he discovered the swingarm bearing was not so lekker. The prologue was enough to confirm that it needed replacing.
He found the right bearing, and with the help of a local with a moerse hammer was able to change it, finishing at around midnight before the start.
I think a wheel bearing replacement was required after Day1, but I may be wrong?

I am super, super chuffed that my riding buddy finished. I suspect Melvman is too.
 

Offline Striggs

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #351 on: April 01, 2016, 11:07:16 pm »
I guess rules are rules and talking about the other way around , can you explain how 2 riders that did the route the wrong way around are still in the results ?Funny that !!

Page 18 of the Regulations : Driving ( on the course) in the opposite direction to that of the official route carries a 10 minute penalty and at the discretion of the races stewards can be increased or lead to a disqualification .


It was taken into consideration that the cause of the mountain loop being ridden the wrong way was the the GPS lite system which did not show that the rider was riding the route the wrong way and no clear marker at the split .
 The real losers are the 4 guys that rode the route the wrong way  , not the other riders.

By the time they discovered it they were too far in and fuel would have been an issue if they turned back . The 4 riders were the ones who gave way and pulled right off the tracks when the other riders approached . Despite that , and despite going some distance extra, and riding the route the more difficult way , through no fault of their own , they were actually the ones who suffered more than the other riders. They carried the penalties and the heart ache of riding so well and being pushed down the list of finishers.

It is unfortunate, but the issue had to be sorted before prize giving . I think it was a good call by Alex taking all the factors in consideration and giving a 30 minute penalty .

My 10c worth....

these guys DID NOT pull over and get off the track as mentioned above.  That's from 3 of us that did the loop the correct way....there is also a video that has been uploaded elsewhere on this forum(not by me) that also clearly shows no effort to move aside.. Go find it and judge for yourself...  Law of averages dictate whether the route was accurately marked/plotted or not, how come the majority did not make this obvious error?

To say that the gps track didn't indicate the direction of travel is bollocks. When I stopped at the DSP, I saw that the routes shared a common road, so I did the obvious and logical thing...stop, zoomed in and checked the numbering of the waypoints, yes they were CLEARLY numbered, i.e. 93 94 95 etc.  so I followed the obvious, correct and safe route.  Why would I go from point 93 to 284 and proceed backwards to 283, 282 etc.  If, and only if, some serious mishap had happened, i.e. A head on collision, then all of this debate would become a more serious issue and we would not be bantering on about 30 mins here and there. We can go on about whether it was more difficult or not, the point is that they did a 90km section of the route incorrectly.  I don't believe that the 10 minute penalty is designed for a 90km error, but rather a minor deviation.  To suggest that the guys doing the route the wrong way around are the losers is ludicrous?  They simply did not follow the route. The essence of rally riding in my opinion is the ability to go fast and safe while navigating ACCURATELY. So would your argument be that if the route was easier the other way around they should get a bigger penalty?  What about the rest of the riders who suddenly felt the anxiety of potentially coming across more competitors racing in the wrong direction, thus slowing down to potentially avoid a life threatening situation? Shouldn't we be given some time to compensate for easing off?

I have had my fair share of protests and decision making being an organizer and MSA Steward/COC in the past, it is a thankless task.  My money would have been on disqualification. I think Alex took the soft decision. If it was me having gone the wrong way, I would have expected nothing less than a disqualification.  First rule of Motorsport is safety of ALL competitors and spectators.  Bottom line is that it was downright dangerous, caused by an error of navigation, NOT the organizers fault.

My overall experience of the event was great, I would do it again in a flash.... The privilege of riding in that area is priceless... But next time I see somebody going in wrong direction, I will make damn sure that my protest money is ready....
Apologies, that 10c turned into 50c...

Thank you for your input Striggs. I have no idea who you are , can you please ID yourself? If not here , then with a pm please , thanks !

I sat in the meeting with Alex and John and three of the riders and I had spoken to the 4th rider Gideon before he had to leave as well as after the meeting by telephone , so we had information that others did not have .

Some points –mine – not the organisation’s  ,I cannot speak for Alex or Amageza / Baja , this is in my personal capacity .

The Law of averages. I do not think that is relevant  . The 4 riders were the front runners . There were no tracks whatsoever to show them the way.  Roger Kane –Berman- an experienced rider and navigator , he went on to win the race- also made the same error as these 4 and he and rode for 15km in the wrong way before his Road Book showed him wrong . He told this to me in person.  That shows that it was an easy mistake to make at the time of entering the loop.  The lite guys did not have a Road book so once on the route they would simply follow the lines on the GPS . They would not , like Roger , come across anything on a Road book to indicate that they were wrong, until they met the first riders.  When they met the first riders they did not know who was wrong ,and by the time they saw more guys fuel would have been a problem if they turned around.

You say that you were an organiser and MSA Steward/COC in the past  . You are therefore experienced with Rallies and navigation and you cleverly found out how to use the Rally lite system to it’s full potential . Well done . But , the Rally lite system was not designed for someone experienced like you. It was designed for the first time Rally entrant to help them to ride the route easily , to not worry about navigation, but to focus on the ride.  For those purposes, it clearly did not work.

From what you say you found it necessary at that point to double check . Thank you, you are therefore confirming that there was a potential for error which adds weight to the 4 rider’s argument that it was an easy mistake to make.  You have also given valuable information on how to make the Rally Lite system more user friendly next year, if Alex uses it again .  :thumleft:

The Baja was a test run for the Amageza to see what issues will come up and could be dealt with .

Edit : Alex just told me the Rally Lite system was a failure and would not be used again .

For the riders further down the field ,  if you were going the right route , so were the riders with you or who followed you or your tracks or other people’s tracks .

Safety and Penalty given  :  I don’t know who the rider was on that video , if that was at the start of the loop then it surely couldn’t have been these 4 riders ? Maybe Roger coming back?

It is one transgression , one continuous transgression not a lot of little ones.  Yes 30 minutes is fairly lenient from your point , it could have been an hour ,but all factors were taken into consideration such as that the Rally lite system did not work to make things easier as it was supposed to .  For that reason disqualification was unnecessary and would have been too harsh.

Yes of course riding the route the wrong way is a security risk but in reality no one did get hurt , it was a very technical section and for most of it the riders were riding slowly, reducing the risk.

No real emotional harm would have befallen the other riders except the few minutes of overtaking and mostly the wrong way 4 made way. The real pain would have been the wrong way 4 as they would have had the pain of riding the rest of the route knowing it was wrong and not knowing the outcome . Their qualification into Amageza would have been affected and their placings .

I understand your frustration as you clearly did the right thing. It is difficult to please everybody and find a middle way .




Hallo Rynet!

My name is Ellio Striglia

You have some very valid and relevant points.  Some of which, admittedly I had not considered.  I don't feel hard done by and certainly not frustrated by the results or decisions made by Alex and co.  A lot is expressed tongue-in-cheek, but doesn't always come across like that in print... But, I do always worry about the repercussions from earlier decisions. I guess it's actally not my problem. Unless of course I am the victim of a head on collision.  I have the seen the outcomes of those type of errors/accidents, we all know that they can be serious, if not fatal.... and most frustratingly, avoidable. Excuse me if I am harping on about the safety issue, but until it happens to you or someone you know, it's never an issue.  That is the reason for my feeling that the penalty should have been more severe.  But, once again, not a decision for me to make. I just hope that it doesn't open the door for abuse into the future...

In essence I was trying to point out that it was also possible to make the correct decisions and take the correct route.  I made those decisions in the pit area, not by following other tracks. In fairness to those guys up front and running at a hot pace, it would not have been easy I agree. I started at the back of the pack on that day... The dust was hell... I did not ride the first long stage.

Difficulty in navigating with gps, I agree, not easy or user friendly for this type of event and speeds.  This was my first rally type event.... Test run for whether I want to do the amageza or not...   I'm used to slower speeds such as those in the roof and other extreme enduro type events. So I guess I have also learnt a lesson or two.  I do feel that if the routes had been given to us the night before (as Full Rally did) maybe we may have had time to orientate ourselves with the layout and icons etc. interestingly, what was glaringly apparent on the start line, was the amount of people who had no idea how to even get the route activated on their etrex's and to what level of zoom they should be at? Maybe I just take it for granted that if you are going to be using a gps, then well, learn how to use it properly before the event and understand fully its capability and more importantly, its shortcomings.

Maybe allow a bigger gps such as a Montana? Larger screen with ability to show icons properly. I'm used to a foretrex 401, so etrex is massive.. ;D

The video clip was taken on the section called Devils breath. It wasn't Roger (I also know him personally).

Hindsight is supposed to be perfect science and yet in this case, it isn't...

If anything I hope that this discussion stimulated some positive outcomes for organizers and riders alike.  You are 100% correct, not everyone can be pleased, all of the time....

Cheers

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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #352 on: April 01, 2016, 11:24:07 pm »
Ah the joys of racing..... Two days riding followed by two weeks of bitching

Not to mention the 6 months of pre-race hype, eh? Yes, all so childish. :pot:
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #353 on: April 02, 2016, 12:50:37 am »
If anything I hope that this discussion stimulated some positive outcomes for organizers and riders alike.  You are 100% correct, not everyone can be pleased, all of the time....
Cheers

Welcome to the Rallye scene Striggs :thumleft:

The Lite version of the Baja was an experiment I think. I would not be surprised to see the lite version disappear completely next year, as the Amageza Baja itself is a lite version of the Amageza already.

Yes it is a lot faster than an enduro, but if you ride to the road book unless you are very practiced, its actually quite a bit slower than off road for a lot of the time. You need to think about where you are going and slow down to read the road book, compare with the ICO, adjust the ICO at times, read you heading etc.. Unless you are an alien like Coma, Peterhansel or Despres who have been riding for years to a road book it is dangerous to go full gas while looking at all the instrumentation. 
:lol8:

I dare say that the best way to learn about rally is to actually plunge in and start riding to a road book (in a Baja rally event) rather than riding it using a GPS. Rather get a road book holder and learn how to navigate. Otherwise its just an extended off road race, and rally is not about that at all.

Rally is a navigational, long distance, endurance challenge in which often the not-as-fast guys come out on top because they made less mistakes and conserved their machines better.

Think 700km/day for 7 days in a row. Its a long way to ride 700km in a single day on a DS bike, never mind a race-ready 450 or 690. But can body and mind take it for 7 days in a row, for 10-14 hrs/day at least concentrating all the time? That is what its really about.

To your concern about the head-on collision risk is a very valid point, but the chance of a repeat of what happened to you guys in a big loop two weeks ago is very small simply because big rally loops seldom if ever cross, and when guys get lost they usually end up safely out of collisions way, sometimes more than 50km off the course! ;D

Hope you stick it out and try the navigational stuff. It really is a lot of fun once you get used to it. :deal:  

Please shout out if you want to learn more, there are guys here who have training road books done already, and there is a lot of good info right here in this Racing Section of Wilddogs if you want to read more about how to best do it.  

Neil :paw:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:59:00 am by BlueBull2007 »
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Offline Striggs

Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #354 on: April 02, 2016, 06:44:10 am »
Good morning Bluebull

I will definitely be going road book route, I've spent a fair amount of time reading up on it, just couldn't get my stuff together in time for the Baja, just not sure where and how I am going to practice!?  I have seen the other threads discussing the equipment etc. and will make a nuisance of myself there asking lots of stupid questions. :lamer:

I do also agree that the events of the baja regarding directional issues is rare.

Cheers

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Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #355 on: April 02, 2016, 07:05:21 am »
I guess rules are rules and talking about the other way around , can you explain how 2 riders that did the route the wrong way around are still in the results ?Funny that !!

Page 18 of the Regulations : Driving ( on the course) in the opposite direction to that of the official route carries a 10 minute penalty and at the discretion of the races stewards can be increased or lead to a disqualification .


It was taken into consideration that the cause of the mountain loop being ridden the wrong way was the the GPS lite system which did not show that the rider was riding the route the wrong way and no clear marker at the split .
 The real losers are the 4 guys that rode the route the wrong way  , not the other riders.

By the time they discovered it they were too far in and fuel would have been an issue if they turned back . The 4 riders were the ones who gave way and pulled right off the tracks when the other riders approached . Despite that , and despite going some distance extra, and riding the route the more difficult way , through no fault of their own , they were actually the ones who suffered more than the other riders. They carried the penalties and the heart ache of riding so well and being pushed down the list of finishers.

It is unfortunate, but the issue had to be sorted before prize giving . I think it was a good call by Alex taking all the factors in consideration and giving a 30 minute penalty .

My 10c worth....

these guys DID NOT pull over and get off the track as mentioned above.  That's from 3 of us that did the loop the correct way....there is also a video that has been uploaded elsewhere on this forum(not by me) that also clearly shows no effort to move aside.. Go find it and judge for yourself...  Law of averages dictate whether the route was accurately marked/plotted or not, how come the majority did not make this obvious error?

To say that the gps track didn't indicate the direction of travel is bollocks. When I stopped at the DSP, I saw that the routes shared a common road, so I did the obvious and logical thing...stop, zoomed in and checked the numbering of the waypoints, yes they were CLEARLY numbered, i.e. 93 94 95 etc.  so I followed the obvious, correct and safe route.  Why would I go from point 93 to 284 and proceed backwards to 283, 282 etc.  If, and only if, some serious mishap had happened, i.e. A head on collision, then all of this debate would become a more serious issue and we would not be bantering on about 30 mins here and there. We can go on about whether it was more difficult or not, the point is that they did a 90km section of the route incorrectly.  I don't believe that the 10 minute penalty is designed for a 90km error, but rather a minor deviation.  To suggest that the guys doing the route the wrong way around are the losers is ludicrous?  They simply did not follow the route. The essence of rally riding in my opinion is the ability to go fast and safe while navigating ACCURATELY. So would your argument be that if the route was easier the other way around they should get a bigger penalty?  What about the rest of the riders who suddenly felt the anxiety of potentially coming across more competitors racing in the wrong direction, thus slowing down to potentially avoid a life threatening situation? Shouldn't we be given some time to compensate for easing off?

I have had my fair share of protests and decision making being an organizer and MSA Steward/COC in the past, it is a thankless task.  My money would have been on disqualification. I think Alex took the soft decision. If it was me having gone the wrong way, I would have expected nothing less than a disqualification.  First rule of Motorsport is safety of ALL competitors and spectators.  Bottom line is that it was downright dangerous, caused by an error of navigation, NOT the organizers fault.

My overall experience of the event was great, I would do it again in a flash.... The privilege of riding in that area is priceless... But next time I see somebody going in wrong direction, I will make damn sure that my protest money is ready....
Apologies, that 10c turned into 50c...

Thank you for your input Striggs. I have no idea who you are , can you please ID yourself? If not here , then with a pm please , thanks !

I sat in the meeting with Alex and John and three of the riders and I had spoken to the 4th rider Gideon before he had to leave as well as after the meeting by telephone , so we had information that others did not have .

Some points –mine – not the organisation’s  ,I cannot speak for Alex or Amageza / Baja , this is in my personal capacity .

The Law of averages. I do not think that is relevant  . The 4 riders were the front runners . There were no tracks whatsoever to show them the way.  Roger Kane –Berman- an experienced rider and navigator , he went on to win the race- also made the same error as these 4 and he and rode for 15km in the wrong way before his Road Book showed him wrong . He told this to me in person.  That shows that it was an easy mistake to make at the time of entering the loop.  The lite guys did not have a Road book so once on the route they would simply follow the lines on the GPS . They would not , like Roger , come across anything on a Road book to indicate that they were wrong, until they met the first riders.  When they met the first riders they did not know who was wrong ,and by the time they saw more guys fuel would have been a problem if they turned around.

You say that you were an organiser and MSA Steward/COC in the past  . You are therefore experienced with Rallies and navigation and you cleverly found out how to use the Rally lite system to it’s full potential . Well done . But , the Rally lite system was not designed for someone experienced like you. It was designed for the first time Rally entrant to help them to ride the route easily , to not worry about navigation, but to focus on the ride.  For those purposes, it clearly did not work.

From what you say you found it necessary at that point to double check . Thank you, you are therefore confirming that there was a potential for error which adds weight to the 4 rider’s argument that it was an easy mistake to make.  You have also given valuable information on how to make the Rally Lite system more user friendly next year, if Alex uses it again .  :thumleft:

The Baja was a test run for the Amageza to see what issues will come up and could be dealt with .

Edit : Alex just told me the Rally Lite system was a failure and would not be used again .

For the riders further down the field ,  if you were going the right route , so were the riders with you or who followed you or your tracks or other people’s tracks .

Safety and Penalty given  :  I don’t know who the rider was on that video , if that was at the start of the loop then it surely couldn’t have been these 4 riders ? Maybe Roger coming back?

It is one transgression , one continuous transgression not a lot of little ones.  Yes 30 minutes is fairly lenient from your point , it could have been an hour ,but all factors were taken into consideration such as that the Rally lite system did not work to make things easier as it was supposed to .  For that reason disqualification was unnecessary and would have been too harsh.

Yes of course riding the route the wrong way is a security risk but in reality no one did get hurt , it was a very technical section and for most of it the riders were riding slowly, reducing the risk.

No real emotional harm would have befallen the other riders except the few minutes of overtaking and mostly the wrong way 4 made way. The real pain would have been the wrong way 4 as they would have had the pain of riding the rest of the route knowing it was wrong and not knowing the outcome . Their qualification into Amageza would have been affected and their placings .

I understand your frustration as you clearly did the right thing. It is difficult to please everybody and find a middle way .




Hallo Rynet!

My name is Ellio Striglia

You have some very valid and relevant points.  Some of which, admittedly I had not considered.  I don't feel hard done by and certainly not frustrated by the results or decisions made by Alex and co.  A lot is expressed tongue-in-cheek, but doesn't always come across like that in print... But, I do always worry about the repercussions from earlier decisions. I guess it's actally not my problem. Unless of course I am the victim of a head on collision.  I have the seen the outcomes of those type of errors/accidents, we all know that they can be serious, if not fatal.... and most frustratingly, avoidable. Excuse me if I am harping on about the safety issue, but until it happens to you or someone you know, it's never an issue.  That is the reason for my feeling that the penalty should have been more severe.  But, once again, not a decision for me to make. I just hope that it doesn't open the door for abuse into the future...

In essence I was trying to point out that it was also possible to make the correct decisions and take the correct route.  I made those decisions in the pit area, not by following other tracks. In fairness to those guys up front and running at a hot pace, it would not have been easy I agree. I started at the back of the pack on that day... The dust was hell... I did not ride the first long stage.

Difficulty in navigating with gps, I agree, not easy or user friendly for this type of event and speeds.  This was my first rally type event.... Test run for whether I want to do the amageza or not...   I'm used to slower speeds such as those in the roof and other extreme enduro type events. So I guess I have also learnt a lesson or two.  I do feel that if the routes had been given to us the night before (as Full Rally did) maybe we may have had time to orientate ourselves with the layout and icons etc. interestingly, what was glaringly apparent on the start line, was the amount of people who had no idea how to even get the route activated on their etrex's and to what level of zoom they should be at? Maybe I just take it for granted that if you are going to be using a gps, then well, learn how to use it properly before the event and understand fully its capability and more importantly, its shortcomings.

Maybe allow a bigger gps such as a Montana? Larger screen with ability to show icons properly. I'm used to a foretrex 401, so etrex is massive.. ;D

The video clip was taken on the section called Devils breath. It wasn't Roger (I also know him personally).

Hindsight is supposed to be perfect science and yet in this case, it isn't...

If anything I hope that this discussion stimulated some positive outcomes for organizers and riders alike.  You are 100% correct, not everyone can be pleased, all of the time....

Cheers



Hello Ellio , is that Italian ?  :biggrin:

Thank you for your post and good points. Yes the safety is very important to Alex and Amageza too . You hit the nail on the head, when making decisions the Org does set a precedent , yes , and it was considered. Since the Rallye lite system will not be used these errors should not occur again .  And if there is ever a Loop again , maybe the Org can put markers at that point .

Yes good point also about the GPS. If the Lite system was to be used again the GPS should have a bigger screen so the waypoints are bigger and visible without zooming in , but Alex has said the Lite system will not happen again .

Good points about the routes being given the previous nights .  As for your point that the riders didn't know how to use the GPS , yes I agree, and even the Road Book riders don't know how to use it , they don't realise how important the GPS is to be used together with the Road books  , some of them don't even know if it is switched on or not ( and as a non -techie I can relate !)

I agree with BB that it is better to do the whole Roadbook thing , it is not that hard and best to jump right in and do it .

Glad that you were happy on the whole and that we had this chat . :thumleft:
 

Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #356 on: April 02, 2016, 07:39:04 am »
Some personal thoughts on the Ralley Lite system .

I personally did not like the admin as a marshal of dealing with 4 different groups of bike riders , being Rally Open and Restricted and Lite Open and Restricted. It is much more work .


The Lite system also caused issues with the Loop and then the prize giving was 30 minutes late too !

However the main reason for me is the scoring . For me there are lots of different things that is amazing about a rally, but really , at the CRUX -  how did I score? , where did I place in comparison to the other riders ?
How does my placement compare to others as the Ralley progresses day by day ? How do I score against my friends ? If I don't finish , how did I do the day before ?

And how do you compare that if some used a Roadbook and others had it easy by just following an arrow ? 


I know it's silly but I am still pleased about my 7th place out of 20 riders in the 2011 Amageza .  :biggrin:  :imaposer:

The Roadbook is what makes it a Rally as BB says above and I agree with him. I also agree with him that it is best to just jump right in and start using it . It is not that hard to use and makes it exciting .

It is worth it , but yes the new to road book riders will have to start prepping long before the Event  ,you can't just pitch up on the day . Sometimes new riders prep their bikes, but forget about the Road book- and GPS training and to study the regulations .


Most importantly , it will then not be just speed that counts , it will be brawn and brains .   :biggrin:
 

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #357 on: April 02, 2016, 07:57:28 am »
Team Verve - White Rhino's ride report with some mouth watering pics here .... http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=190571.0
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Offline Geel Kat

Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #358 on: April 02, 2016, 08:55:59 am »
Cool Ride Report White Rhino  :thumleft:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:07:26 pm by Geel Kat »
 

Offline EbenMocke

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #359 on: April 02, 2016, 04:12:27 pm »
Hi All

Here is the "wrong way round brothers" version of the BAJA :ricky:.

First , what a awesome race and awesome time we had...... the terrain, SS and everything els was great...we really enjoyed our-selfs tremendously.
Prologue did not go as planned for me as my gps died at the start and i had no time so i had to start way last on day 1'SS......number 28 you are the sweeper, heheheheheheh.  Maybe not such a bad thing as i had tracks galore and how nice it was to have bikes on the track the whole day almost with you.... Day one ended up with me and Gavin (66) having a flyer even with him having to race without a clutch form Alexander bay.

So Day 2 we were leading and had to start 1 and 2 on the SS................... :ricky:

So standing on the start line Gavin (66) noticed he had 2 tracks on the GPS, so asked which one to follow as the one showed we need to go right and the other left...........so where do we go????????????? ( so yesterdays track was still loaded onto the gps)
We were informed that we just needed to stay to the right and that the Track never crosses each other.......so this is what we did........we were flying all the way to the DSP (at some stages clocking 150 kph on those red dune roads.....) DSP reached , refueled hopped on our ponies and off we went, GPS showing we were on the right track.....  ( may i ad, reading the gps at 130kph, covered with dust, is virtually impossible. The screan is 2 inches  x 1,5 inches, and you have to be zoomed in to about 200m for you to be able to see where you are going. The icons is impossible to see, so any speed zones , danger zones is a no see event and you have to deal with it when you get there) Gavin (66) hit a culvert at about 120kph and was just lucky to have kept it upright....... ( so regte ooooooo fok dit was naby geval) heheheheheh

So off we went in the lead and on a roll. Into the mountain and at some stage I stopped and said to him, shit brother i do not know how many of the okes is gonna do this mountain stage , this is just insane, Alex was not joking.........

And then the first biker from in front..........................it was like you through us both with a bucket of cold ice water...............I told him, it was only one guy and that he may have been lost, but then a second and a third.......ooooooooooo F(*&^%$$

We stopped and I spoke to Roger, he confirmed to me that his heading and cap was right and that we were going the wrong direction.  I still could not believe it........then it dawned on me that Alex said that the light and rally tracks differed a little...... I told Gavin that maybe the light guys had to do the mountain stage the other way round as we were right on the gps........  After deliberating for about 10 min we made the decision to continue in this direction ( you will see I say "this direction" as we were technically not going the wrong direction according to our navigation system) as we did not have fuel to go back.   So we continued to the DSP.

At the DPS we were stopped and there was being asked if we could continue....after about 10 min again we were allowed to continue.  By this time Roger and another guy had passed us and we had some catching up to do......Man did we enjoy this, we "braaaaaaped" the hell out of the 501 and 450 to catch those buggers.....heheheheh.

Ended Day 2 SS first again made peace with the fact that we did go the wrong way and may be DQ.... but like any gps rider there was no indication of heading that can be used as a reverence........

We did not lodge a complaint as we felt the organizers needed to do what they felt was right as this is there race and we will take what comes our way.......no matter what we had a hell of a time........

The Gps is a very good idea, i would urge Alex to still use this as method for guys to get into the Rally seen.......There will always be stuff that goes wrong but that can be sorted and worked out......We only learn form our mistakes, how els??????

We had a great time and will def be back again hopefully "the right way round" next time... heheheheheheheheh

Had A Ball,,,, The Mocke Brothers (28) (66)
Keep it in the limiter........