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Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #360 on: April 02, 2016, 04:17:11 pm »
Nice to hear your Story Eben. And welcome to the forum! :thumleft:
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Offline Hondsekierie

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #361 on: April 02, 2016, 08:11:12 pm »
Human errors occur but the unfortunate part is that you have a skewed result where people paid pretty sums to participate.  Cancelling the Rally Lite version in future is a bit of a cop-out.  This is after all regarded as a professional event and not some fun, exploratory adventure ride where the rules can be amended to suit whomever.

According to any racing rules it should have been immediate disqualification even though the guys in front were the fast ones up till then (we however know that the fastest guy don't always win a navigational rally).  In hindsight the Race Director should have conveyed the DQ message to the DSP as he would have witnessed the whole thing going pear shaped from his chopper as it unfolded.

Very unfortunate but yes, Alex keeps on delivering the only proper navigational rally.  A marked improvement on the 2015 Amageza, this will hopefully become one of the official Dakar feeding events with huge numbers of international racers.  Would love to see Toby Price come trying his luck against our own Bonova :ricky:       

 

 

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Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #362 on: April 03, 2016, 08:52:15 am »
Human errors occur but the unfortunate part is that you have a skewed result where people paid pretty sums to participate.  Cancelling the Rally Lite version in future is a bit of a cop-out.  This is after all regarded as a professional event and not some fun, exploratory adventure ride where the rules can be amended to suit whomever.

According to any racing rules it should have been immediate disqualification even though the guys in front were the fast ones up till then (we however know that the fastest guy don't always win a navigational rally).  In hindsight the Race Director should have conveyed the DQ message to the DSP as he would have witnessed the whole thing going pear shaped from his chopper as it unfolded.

Very unfortunate but yes, Alex keeps on delivering the only proper navigational rally.  A marked improvement on the 2015 Amageza, this will hopefully become one of the official Dakar feeding events with huge numbers of international racers.  Would love to see Toby Price come trying his luck against our own Bonova :ricky:       

 


HSK where did this anger come from ? Please go and read the previous pages and you will see that the error of the Loop guys were not mainly human error , it was the the Lite system that failed in its purpose .  I took great care to explain in previous posts and I did that so that riders can get a better understanding, did you even read the previous posts dealing extensively with this issue ?

Did you see my post where I quoted the specific regulation that dealt with riding the route the wrong way ? Quoted here again :" Page 18 of the Regulations : Driving ( on the course) in the opposite direction to that of the official route carries a 10 minute penalty and at the discretion of the races stewards can be increased or lead to a disqualification" .


 The regulations that Alex uses are based on the Dakar’s own rules . Which “racing rules” do you want him to follow instead  ? MotoGP ?   How dare you say Alex should have DQ the Loop riders ? Not even in the Dakar is riding against the route an auto DQ.  Please refrain from trying to cause damage here on this thread or elsewhere, to Alex or the Baja/ Amageza .

You clearly have a strong feeling about this . Let me tell you that Alex also had strong feelings about this .  :biggrin:  If Alex had to make the decision based purely on strong feelings, then he may also have DQ ‘d the riders, but instead he and the Steward, John did the right thing and debated it extensively after taking all the factors into consideration , starting with perusing the regulations and the Lite System .

They also spoke to three of the Loop riders as well as with four of the fastest , most senior , most experienced Rally riders who actually took part in this race , and these four riders said that DQ is not needed in this particularly case . They were the ones who would have been most prejudiced by finding these riders riding from the other side and their scoring could have been prejudiced. So, the direct competition of the four Loop riders confirmed that DQ is not needed , why should Alex listen to you , as you were not even riding the event .


 

Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #363 on: April 03, 2016, 09:04:44 am »
Human errors occur but the unfortunate part is that you have a skewed result where people paid pretty sums to participate.  Cancelling the Rally Lite version in future is a bit of a cop-out.  This is after all regarded as a professional event and not some fun, exploratory adventure ride where the rules can be amended to suit whomever.

According to any racing rules it should have been immediate disqualification even though the guys in front were the fast ones up till then (we however know that the fastest guy don't always win a navigational rally).  In hindsight the Race Director should have conveyed the DQ message to the DSP as he would have witnessed the whole thing going pear shaped from his chopper as it unfolded.

Very unfortunate but yes, Alex keeps on delivering the only proper navigational rally.  A marked improvement on the 2015 Amageza, this will hopefully become one of the official Dakar feeding events with huge numbers of international racers.  Would love to see Toby Price come trying his luck against our own Bonova :ricky:       
 


I disagree with your statement that cancelling the Ralley Lite system is a cop-out .

   There are logical ,practical and logistical reasons why the Lite system's problems outweigh the benefits . As stated previously resources will have to be spent to improve the technology  , the training of the riders, extra staff to do the admin and the time –keeping at the event . And at the end of the day you still sit with two different groups of riders , where one group of riders cannot compare their times with the other group ,because two different systems were used, even a slightly different route .

  Why do you say that resources should be spent on making the Lite system better ? Don’t you think those resources should rather be spent on making the current Rally with Road book navigation better ?

   The sooner the novice ralley riders tap into buying and using a Road book the sooner they will get up to speed to real Rallying which is the Road book navigation  . How can a non RB rider stand a chance of qualifying for Dakar itself, if they don’t use the RB. No my friend , if anything , using the Lite system is a cop-out .  Anyway I had no influence on it being scrapped, the decision was made entirely by Alex . But the more I think about it the more I realise Alex is right . It is just not worth it  ,it detracts from the crux and spirit of what Rally is all about .



 

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016 Updates
« Reply #364 on: April 03, 2016, 01:03:49 pm »
Kevin my trust worthy riding partner. BIG UPS for Kevin, I only hope I can still ride like he does at the age of 60. Was a pleasure to ride with him.
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Offline Rolling Stone

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #365 on: April 03, 2016, 02:30:32 pm »
Human errors occur but the unfortunate part is that you have a skewed result where people paid pretty sums to participate.  Cancelling the Rally Lite version in future is a bit of a cop-out.  This is after all regarded as a professional event and not some fun, exploratory adventure ride where the rules can be amended to suit whomever.

According to any racing rules it should have been immediate disqualification even though the guys in front were the fast ones up till then (we however know that the fastest guy don't always win a navigational rally).  In hindsight the Race Director should have conveyed the DQ message to the DSP as he would have witnessed the whole thing going pear shaped from his chopper as it unfolded.

Very unfortunate but yes, Alex keeps on delivering the only proper navigational rally.  A marked improvement on the 2015 Amageza, this will hopefully become one of the official Dakar feeding events with huge numbers of international racers.  Would love to see Toby Price come trying his luck against our own Bonova :ricky:        
 


I disagree with your statement that cancelling the Ralley Lite system is a cop-out .

   There are logical ,practical and logistical reasons why the Lite system's problems outweigh the benefits . As stated previously resources will have to be spent to improve the technology  , the training of the riders, extra staff to do the admin and the time –keeping at the event . And at the end of the day you still sit with two different groups of riders , where one group of riders cannot compare their times with the other group ,because two different systems were used, even a slightly different route .

  Why do you say that resources should be spent on making the Lite system better ? Don’t you think those resources should rather be spent on making the current Rally with Road book navigation better ?

   The sooner the novice ralley riders tap into buying and using a Road book the sooner they will get up to speed to real Rallying which is the Road book navigation  . How can a non RB rider stand a chance of qualifying for Dakar itself, if they don’t use the RB. No my friend , if anything , using the Lite system is a cop-out .  Anyway I had no influence on it being scrapped, the decision was made entirely by Alex . But the more I think about it the more I realise Alex is right . It is just not worth it  ,it detracts from the crux and spirit of what Rally is all about .




Talk about anger??
You are the official Amageza/Baja spokesperson here on the forum, are you not? Or are all these comments on here just your personal opinions?
It is a public forum and people will have opinions, sometimes we shoot from the hip and sometimes we should listen and try to understand what is being said and if it possibly has some value.
You may not always agree, but it will help to listen.
IMO if it was not for some harsh words and sound and sometimes not so sound advice handed out on this forum over the the last couple of years, Amageza would not be where it is today. It most probably would have died in 2012.
In the Past Alex would let us rant and rave and advise as much as we liked. I am sure he was reading all the posts and decided what to use or not to use. I am sure that a lot of valuable feedback came from Amageza threads.
What you are doing here is not exactly constructive either.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 02:49:29 pm by Rolling Stone »
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #366 on: April 03, 2016, 05:45:48 pm »
Has anybody here contacted GJ to hear what he has to say about this "misunderstanding"?

He was one of the riders going "upstream".
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #367 on: April 03, 2016, 06:25:49 pm »
Has anybody here contacted GJ to hear what he has to say about this "misunderstanding"?

He was one of the riders going "upstream".

GJ already posted here. Im sure he would tell us his version if he wanted to. :thumleft:
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Offline rubiblue

Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #368 on: April 03, 2016, 07:37:49 pm »
Hi All

Here is the "wrong way round brothers" version of the BAJA :ricky:.

And then the first biker from in front..........................it was like you through us both with a bucket of cold ice water...............I told him, it was only one guy and that he may have been lost, but then a second and a third.......ooooooooooo F(*&^%$$

Had A Ball,,,, The Mocke Brothers (28) (66)
Keep it in the limiter........


Was great to meet you Eben. At the end and being the first biker that came the other way. I must say when I saw you I thought "oh vok" I made a booboo. But the road book made 100% sense. But the doubt sets in when a few more came after you. Someone had just come up that hectic uphill for you guys and said to me the road ahead is "fucking hectic". This reassured me as I was going down it, knew Alex would never send us up those on these bikes. You and boet can ride bikes proper. Congrats to both of you for riding a solid race,albeit some of it in the wrong direction. Hope to see you guys at the next one.
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Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #369 on: April 03, 2016, 07:41:23 pm »
Human errors occur but the unfortunate part is that you have a skewed result where people paid pretty sums to participate.  Cancelling the Rally Lite version in future is a bit of a cop-out.  This is after all regarded as a professional event and not some fun, exploratory adventure ride where the rules can be amended to suit whomever.

According to any racing rules it should have been immediate disqualification even though the guys in front were the fast ones up till then (we however know that the fastest guy don't always win a navigational rally).  In hindsight the Race Director should have conveyed the DQ message to the DSP as he would have witnessed the whole thing going pear shaped from his chopper as it unfolded.

Very unfortunate but yes, Alex keeps on delivering the only proper navigational rally.  A marked improvement on the 2015 Amageza, this will hopefully become one of the official Dakar feeding events with huge numbers of international racers.  Would love to see Toby Price come trying his luck against our own Bonova :ricky:        
 


I disagree with your statement that cancelling the Ralley Lite system is a cop-out .

   There are logical ,practical and logistical reasons why the Lite system's problems outweigh the benefits . As stated previously resources will have to be spent to improve the technology  , the training of the riders, extra staff to do the admin and the time –keeping at the event . And at the end of the day you still sit with two different groups of riders , where one group of riders cannot compare their times with the other group ,because two different systems were used, even a slightly different route .

  Why do you say that resources should be spent on making the Lite system better ? Don’t you think those resources should rather be spent on making the current Rally with Road book navigation better ?

   The sooner the novice ralley riders tap into buying and using a Road book the sooner they will get up to speed to real Rallying which is the Road book navigation  . How can a non RB rider stand a chance of qualifying for Dakar itself, if they don’t use the RB. No my friend , if anything , using the Lite system is a cop-out .  Anyway I had no influence on it being scrapped, the decision was made entirely by Alex . But the more I think about it the more I realise Alex is right . It is just not worth it  ,it detracts from the crux and spirit of what Rally is all about .




Talk about anger??
You are the official Amageza/Baja spokesperson here on the forum, are you not? Or are all these comments on here just your personal opinions?
It is a public forum and people will have opinions, sometimes we shoot from the hip and sometimes we should listen and try to understand what is being said and if it possibly has some value.
You may not always agree, but it will help to listen.
IMO if it was not for some harsh words and sound and sometimes not so sound advice handed out on this forum over the the last couple of years, Amageza would not be where it is today. It most probably would have died in 2012.
In the Past Alex would let us rant and rave and advise as much as we liked. I am sure he was reading all the posts and decided what to use or not to use. I am sure that a lot of valuable feedback came from Amageza threads.
What you are doing here is not exactly constructive either.

RS this is funny , but you are barking up the wrong tree . Ask Alex who usually goes to him after a Rally with a laundry list of complaints and suggestions from the riders about how he can do the event better. At the Baja I spoke and listened to the people responsible for tents and cleaning , the caterers,  EMO , the photographers, the other Marshalls and as many of the riders I could and even some team managers . On this thread I specifically asked for discussions and made a list of issues raised  . Alex asks for this input and strives to improve the event year after year , and he succeeds in doing that . Currently he is up to speed with the complaints on this thread and thanked me for my handling it , but no I am not speaking in any official capacity as I have explained previously . When Alex’s Baja admin is over he will also read and deal with this thread .

Yes I was a bit short with HSK , because we have explained the Loop saga over and over and I feel it is done now .

You are still welcome to discuss . Ranting and raving is not encouraged .  ;)

 

Offline Rynet

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #370 on: April 03, 2016, 07:46:35 pm »
Hi All

Here is the "wrong way round brothers" version of the BAJA :ricky:.

And then the first biker from in front..........................it was like you through us both with a bucket of cold ice water...............I told him, it was only one guy and that he may have been lost, but then a second and a third.......ooooooooooo F(*&^%$$

Had A Ball,,,, The Mocke Brothers (28) (66)
Keep it in the limiter........


Was great to meet you Eben. At the end and being the first biker that came the other way. I must say when I saw you I thought "oh vok" I made a booboo. But the road book made 100% sense. But the doubt sets in when a few more came after you. Someone had just come up that hectic uphill for you guys and said to me the road ahead is "fucking hectic". This reassured me as I was going down it, knew Alex would never send us up those on these bikes. You and boet can ride bikes proper. Congrats to both of you for riding a solid race,albeit some of it in the wrong direction. Hope to see you guys at the next one.

Thanks rubiblue, cool post and made me smile.  :biggrin:  You too EbenMocke , welcome to the forum .  :thumleft:
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #371 on: April 03, 2016, 07:47:16 pm »
Has anybody here contacted GJ to hear what he has to say about this "misunderstanding"?

He was one of the riders going "upstream".

GJ already posted here. Im sure he would tell us his version if he wanted to. :thumleft:

Weet jy hoe hakkel daai man? It would take him a week to get to the refuel point where everything went pearshaped. :peepwall:
 

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #372 on: April 03, 2016, 07:48:52 pm »
Has anybody here contacted GJ to hear what he has to say about this "misunderstanding"?

He was one of the riders going "upstream".

GJ already posted here. Im sure he would tell us his version if he wanted to. :thumleft:

Weet jy hoe hakkel daai man? It would take him a week to get to the refuel point where everything went pearshaped. :peepwall:

 :imaposer: :imaposer:
 

Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #373 on: April 03, 2016, 09:12:30 pm »
It seems from the guys that did the Lites class, that this format certainly has legs.  Maybe just not in conjunction with a rallye class, where both are competing for the same thing.  Determining an over-all winner becomes rather tricky.

But to me at least, it appears that a GPS-based long distance cross country race might have some kind of future.
 

Offline AlexRG

Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #374 on: April 03, 2016, 09:13:01 pm »
Hi,

To me this was a superb event and I loved every moment of it.

The best feeling was seeing how I improved on my Amageza 2015 experience (last of the finishers and coming in at night, dead tired... almost every night).

To echo what's been said in this thread - just get into it and learn how to work the navigation, there is no substitute for getting in on the deep end!

Gripes: ... a plan needs to be made on how to deal better with the quads and sideXside's... they are downright dangerous and the dust is insane. Maybe they should start like 2hrs earlier or something to minimize dealing with dust and overtaking? I have to say the riders/drivers were as courteous as can be and I did not have an issue with anyone in particular, but if the up-take and entries increase we'll sure have a bigger problem in future.

Cheers,
Alex RG


 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #375 on: April 03, 2016, 09:39:41 pm »
Hopefully the bikes will be allowed to go first, then the quads and then an hour later the side by sides.
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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #376 on: April 03, 2016, 09:46:01 pm »
Hopefully the bikes will be allowed to go first, then the quads and then an hour later the side by sides.

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Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #377 on: April 04, 2016, 12:05:16 am »

****
Maybe a totally different look at the Lite vs Roadbook issue would be to make it Roadbook only but with +-90km refuel points.
It should be more than a Amageza qualifier, it must be a 'Try before you Buy' design.   >:D
****

As this is/must be/can be a feeder to Amageza the 2 SPECIAL stages must be of the same TECHNICAL spec as Amageza but minimal Liason.  I think the refuel point on day 2 worked quite well.  If I looked at the fuel level of the 'see through tanks' I am sure most were still more than half. (Ok, the DSP was only at km67 of leg1 ??) Now that the org have some info it might even be practical to have bulk fuel at two seperate DSP's.  Maybe the org must send out a questionnaire to the entrants w.r.t how many Jerries and how much fuel was decanted (amongst other things as post mortem) to get 'proper' stats.

It will almost halve the bike prep cost.  I think day 2 worked 100% in that respect.  The 'serious to win' riders will have a full 300km prepped bike and do not need to refuel where the 'do I like this S!@#t' will lose the two refuel times.  They will be back next year with a 300km range bike.

There are THREE simple factors to consider.  Money1, Money2 and Money3.

Money 1. (the Org)
Planning the event.  One boeviak with a 250km loop per day will be more cost effective both time, resources and logistics.  The route planning might be a bit more complex but all other factors will outweigh that.

Money 2. (the entries)
a) Prepping a 90km roadbook bike is MUCH more cost effective than a 300km type.
b) Allowing Twats and Side By Sides will attract additional riders.
c) Looking at the ACTUAL need for a SEPARATE CAP heading instrument an additional saving of more than R6 000.00 could be made. (The compulsory Etrex can be the CAP instrument)

Money 3. (all parties)
Rider running cost for the event.  I think the Baja single Bouviak was a huge success for both org and rider. You only needed to get 'there and back'. The more cost effective the event the more entries the cheaper, the more feed for Amageza bla bla bla.

Looking at (inaccurate) BIKE stats. 68 entries, 43 finishers. There was a close to 50/50 Lite/roadbook ratio. How many of these finishers will actually do the 2016 Amageza and how many the 2017? The Lite finishers must now spend R 35 000.00 on nav tower and 300km fuel to be Amageza ready.  Due to the 90km fuel range some Roadbook riders must now spend at least R10 000.00 for fuel tanks.

Just my worthless 1 Randella.

Adie
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Offline White Rhino

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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #378 on: April 04, 2016, 05:30:44 am »
Road book holders take up a lot of physical space but gives a lot of valuable, often life saving information.

The GPS is very small with very limited information.

Could the future of Rally offer a heavy duty digital screen with tulips and road book information with the ability to digitally mark up and annotate be the way forward. This could work for Rally & Rally lite. Something about 4" X 3".
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Re: West Coast Baja 2016
« Reply #379 on: April 04, 2016, 07:10:12 am »
We've been looking at electronic navigation systems and aids and it always boils down to how fragile they are. There are electronic roadbooks available, but imagine if you break it or it fails. At least with paper you can always make a plan.