Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Author Topic: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy  (Read 2837 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline max lange

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW (all models)
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 535
  • Thanked: 2 times
Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« on: April 13, 2016, 11:44:44 am »
Difficult to explain, bike now has 11000km, at around 9500km I first noticed a funny when cold starting (not really cold but just early morning or afternoon first start). Engine will swing and fire right up but then stumble a few seconds after which it runs fine. This morning it stumbled and died. Power off and on, restart and all good!
Just had 11k service and I did report the issue, before I follow up with BMW would like to know if this is an isolated case.
2017 BMW F700GS
2013 SUZUKI DR650
 

Offline Noneking

Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2016, 11:47:22 am »
Difficult to explain, bike now has 11000km, at around 9500km I first noticed a funny when cold starting (not really cold but just early morning or afternoon first start). Engine will swing and fire right up but then stumble a few seconds after which it runs fine. This morning it stumbled and died. Power off and on, restart and all good!
Just had 11k service and I did report the issue, before I follow up with BMW would like to know if this is an isolated case.

My 2014 did the same, BMW couldn't identify problem, disappeared spontaneously .........
2006 HP2 Enduro 1229
2019 KTM 790 R

NONEKING'S RIDE REPORTS - http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=226099.0
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,800
  • Thanked: 63 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 09:21:30 pm »
Part of it will always be a too lean mixture. Fitting a BoosterPlug to increase start and Idle mixtures with 6% will make the bike start easier and idle stronger.
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline max lange

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW (all models)
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 535
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2016, 07:47:15 am »
Jacobsroodt, not sure that I can agree with you suggestion, it implies that from the get-go I should have experienced the problem. The problem is erratic and hasent happened for the last 10 starts or so.
Anyway the bike is going in for a software update today, time will tell.
2017 BMW F700GS
2013 SUZUKI DR650
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,800
  • Thanked: 63 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2016, 01:30:40 pm »
Thanks Max
Point taken, it can be anything. Keep us posted on this.
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline Tom van Brits

Re:
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2016, 01:48:42 pm »
I had the same thought - lean, but like said why only now? Subscribe

Sent from my SM-T231 using Tapatalk
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,800
  • Thanked: 63 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2016, 02:04:39 pm »
If the problem persists, give me a shout. What the boosterplug ensures a richer mixture for starting and idling. Iv'e seen many a bike stalling on deceleration sorted out by fitting a plug. Starting cold and idling is improved because of richer mixtures - hence the thought...
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline JustBendIt

  • Vendor
  • Vendors
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 950 SE
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 4,774
  • Thanked: 117 times
  • cunning linguistic afficionado
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2016, 03:29:47 pm »
Jacobsroodt, not sure that I can agree with you suggestion, it implies that from the get-go I should have experienced the problem. The problem is erratic and hasent happened for the last 10 starts or so.
Anyway the bike is going in for a software update today, time will tell.

We have had extremely cold temps n the last few days - this weather will exacerbate any cold starting problem on vehicles with lean mixtures
The older I get the faster I was
 

Offline DavidMorrisXp

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: Honda CRF-1000L Africa Twin
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 4,139
  • Thanked: 105 times
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2016, 04:32:10 pm »
Maybe the battery needs a charge........
Check out my YouTube channel, please like & subscribe

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUyKBSrBu-N5oswrTlAhphQ
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,800
  • Thanked: 63 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2016, 10:13:40 pm »
Yip. All my vehicles sleeping outside at the moment because of renovations have difficulties starting. Not sure if all's batteries are going!
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline paulb

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 1,015
  • Thanked: 9 times
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2016, 06:40:58 am »
Keep your hand off the throttle when pushing the start button , the fly by wire is very sensitive.
Better to have it and not need it , than to need it and not have it
 

Offline DavidMorrisXp

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: Honda CRF-1000L Africa Twin
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 4,139
  • Thanked: 105 times
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2016, 08:59:32 am »
Yip. All my vehicles sleeping outside at the moment because of renovations have difficulties starting. Not sure if all's batteries are going!

I have noticed when batteries fail it is in these cold spells.  The battery suppliers must love winter
Check out my YouTube channel, please like & subscribe

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUyKBSrBu-N5oswrTlAhphQ
 

Online TheBear

Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2016, 08:14:40 pm »
Part of it will always be a too lean mixture. Fitting a BoosterPlug to increase start and Idle mixtures with 6% will make the bike start easier and idle stronger.

Does the BoosterPlug not just operate under acceleration?
.#BRADICAL!
 

Offline Herklaas

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: Triumph (all models)
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 2,349
  • Thanked: 58 times
  • Do it, you only live twice.
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2016, 08:19:58 pm »
Part of it will always be a too lean mixture. Fitting a BoosterPlug to increase start and Idle mixtures with 6% will make the bike start easier and idle stronger.

Does the BoosterPlug not just operate under acceleration?

 :sip: Nope, right from the start.
Yamaha 50, Yamaha 400, 2 x Yamaha DR 350 LC, Honda CBX 550 F2, Honda TransAlp 650, Triumph Tiger 800 Xc,
Now 2015 Triumph Tiger 800 Xcx.and.. my favorite... 1996 Yamaha Tenere 660 5 valve single.
 

Online TheBear

Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2016, 09:15:20 pm »
Part of it will always be a too lean mixture. Fitting a BoosterPlug to increase start and Idle mixtures with 6% will make the bike start easier and idle stronger.

Does the BoosterPlug not just operate under acceleration?

 :sip: Nope, right from the start.

 :sip:  Are you sure?  My understanding is that, on a closed loop set-up, it will only interfere during throttle movement.

"In conditions where you maintain constant RPM and throttle opening, the feedback from the lambda sensor will adjust the mixture back to the original level, and our small tuning device will sit idle and wait for something to happen. This is fine you don't need the richer mixture at level speed.

As soon as RPM or throttle opening moves, the fuel map will shift horizontally or vertically on the 15 x 15 grid, and the lambda sensor feedback will be temporarily disabled. This means that the ECU runs open loop for a short period every time we change RPM or throttle, and the enrichment from the AIT sensor modification kicks in exactly at this point."


I may have it wrong, so hoping Jacobsroodt will educate.   :thumleft:

« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:15:48 pm by TheBear »
.#BRADICAL!
 

Offline Jacobsroodt

  • vendor
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1090 Adventure R
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 3,800
  • Thanked: 63 times
  • Carpe Diem (in Afrikaans: Life's short, Ride hard)
    • West Coast Parts
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2016, 12:22:55 pm »
Part of it will always be a too lean mixture. Fitting a BoosterPlug to increase start and Idle mixtures with 6% will make the bike start easier and idle stronger.

Does the BoosterPlug not just operate under acceleration?

 :sip: Nope, right from the start.

 :sip:  Are you sure?  My understanding is that, on a closed loop set-up, it will only interfere during throttle movement.

"In conditions where you maintain constant RPM and throttle opening, the feedback from the lambda sensor will adjust the mixture back to the original level, and our small tuning device will sit idle and wait for something to happen. This is fine you don't need the richer mixture at level speed.

As soon as RPM or throttle opening moves, the fuel map will shift horizontally or vertically on the 15 x 15 grid, and the lambda sensor feedback will be temporarily disabled. This means that the ECU runs open loop for a short period every time we change RPM or throttle, and the enrichment from the AIT sensor modification kicks in exactly at this point."


I may have it wrong, so hoping Jacobsroodt will educate.   :thumleft:


It took me a while to figure this out as well. This is the correct version:

"As soon as RPM or throttle opening moves, the fuel map will shift horizontally or vertically on the 15 x 15 grid, and the lambda sensor feedback will be temporarily disabled. This means that the ECU runs open loop for a short period every time we change RPM or throttle, and the enrichment from the AIT sensor modification kicks in exactly at this point."

As long as one block on the grid is used on an continuous basis, the lambda sensor has time to provide feedback and correct the mixture. But as soon as the fuel map shifts from one block to the next, the lambda sensor is too slow to make adjustments and takes it out of the equation. The job of adjusting the mixture correctly is then left to the 3 remaining sensors: oil temp, air pressure and intake air temperature (IAT) sensor.
All these sensors makes adjustments to the air/fuel mixture.  E.g.: at 0C, the oil temp sensor will enrich the mixture by 35%!

The AIT sensor pushes the mixture back to a very lean 14.7:1. The BoosterPlug adjusts the IAT sensor values to result in a 6% richer mixture - whenever there is movement between the blocks.

The higher the rpm, the bigger the blocks and the longer time is spent in one block. But the lower the rpm, the smaller the blocks, and more movement takes place on the grid. At idle the values jump around rapidly between blocks all the time. BoosterPlug makes Idle 6% richer. This is why a bike will start easier, "walk" stronger at idle and accelerate better from low rpm.

The BoosterPlug is most effective  in the bottom half of the rpm curve where the blocks on the grid are smaller and more movement takes place - up or down the grid. That is why the BoosterPlug works so well. The bike now runs at 13.6:1, which is the correct stoic mixture, and not at a lean 14.7:1. Throttle response is better, snatchiness is removed, the engine runs cooler (fuel cools down the cylinder) and surging is cured. Because the mixture is richer, the engine decelerates and settles back into idle smoother - resisting stalling and giving the bike a more forgiving character.

The net effect is a wider usable rpm range - the same work can be done at lower rpm.

Sooo, the boosterplug works under acceleration, deceleration, at idle and on starting :3some:.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 12:24:07 pm by Jacobsroodt »
BoosterPlug, LED Spots, Tool Tubes, RustStop, Kappa Screens, Top boxes, Tank Bags, ATG Gear - whatever works for me.
 

Offline gee

Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2016, 02:59:03 pm »
i have a trophy has 16k on the clock since end December. have never had problem with starting or riding when cold. But the way i start i learnt on my old 650 gs is not to touch the throttle as if you do it screws up the computer sensors. Then you had to switch off and then start again. Dont know if this will help
 

Offline max lange

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW (all models)
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 535
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 05:09:30 pm »
Thanks for all the suggestions, a software update seems to have cured the issue, what changes have been implemented I do not know.
It is concerning that the bike would need an update to resolve an issue that only surfaces after 10 months...

I think I need to elaborate a little, by cold start I did not imply that it was cold, rather just the first start of the day...
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:15:29 pm by max lange »
2017 BMW F700GS
2013 SUZUKI DR650
 

Online TheBear

Re: Funny when Cold Starting LC Trophy
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 05:22:30 pm »

It took me a while to figure this out as well. This is the correct version:

"As soon as RPM or throttle opening moves, the fuel map will shift horizontally or vertically on the 15 x 15 grid, and the lambda sensor feedback will be temporarily disabled. This means that the ECU runs open loop for a short period every time we change RPM or throttle, and the enrichment from the AIT sensor modification kicks in exactly at this point."

As long as one block on the grid is used on an continuous basis, the lambda sensor has time to provide feedback and correct the mixture. But as soon as the fuel map shifts from one block to the next, the lambda sensor is too slow to make adjustments and takes it out of the equation. The job of adjusting the mixture correctly is then left to the 3 remaining sensors: oil temp, air pressure and intake air temperature (IAT) sensor.
All these sensors makes adjustments to the air/fuel mixture.  E.g.: at 0C, the oil temp sensor will enrich the mixture by 35%!

The AIT sensor pushes the mixture back to a very lean 14.7:1. The BoosterPlug adjusts the IAT sensor values to result in a 6% richer mixture - whenever there is movement between the blocks.

The higher the rpm, the bigger the blocks and the longer time is spent in one block. But the lower the rpm, the smaller the blocks, and more movement takes place on the grid. At idle the values jump around rapidly between blocks all the time. BoosterPlug makes Idle 6% richer. This is why a bike will start easier, "walk" stronger at idle and accelerate better from low rpm.

The BoosterPlug is most effective  in the bottom half of the rpm curve where the blocks on the grid are smaller and more movement takes place - up or down the grid. That is why the BoosterPlug works so well. The bike now runs at 13.6:1, which is the correct stoic mixture, and not at a lean 14.7:1. Throttle response is better, snatchiness is removed, the engine runs cooler (fuel cools down the cylinder) and surging is cured. Because the mixture is richer, the engine decelerates and settles back into idle smoother - resisting stalling and giving the bike a more forgiving character.

The net effect is a wider usable rpm range - the same work can be done at lower rpm.



Thanks!  Best explanation (that I could understand) I have seen.   :thumleft:


Thanks for all the suggestions, a software update seems to have cured the issue, what changes have been implemented I do not know.
It is concerning that the bike would need an update to resolve an issue that only surfaces after 10 months...



Good news that it is resolved.  I doubt the software upgrade actually solved the problem, but doing the software upgrade also resets all values and that is probably what solved the problem. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:24:50 pm by TheBear »
.#BRADICAL!